Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
...what? Codex is quoting directly from Tome of Salvation, that's Manaan's strictures from his section.
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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
That is the weirdest accusation I've ever received I think.
LiamOfOrmonde
67% lewd. Oh my!
- Location
- Florida Sometimes
I fully admit I could be wrong, but I'm like 95% sure. It was the albatross thing that jogged my memory. Played a game of the Tabletop RPG with a few buddies of mine bout three years ago and it took place in Sartosa. Those scriptures sound super familiar.
Admirably, the DM might've just used Manann's rules instead of Stromfels.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Why would Stromfels have a stricture about not tolerating his own worship?
- Location
- Denial
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The wiki claims that Stromfels was once considered an aspect of Manaan before worship of him was banned and that they have similar strictures, giving it's sources as Tome of Salvation Pg33, Sigmars Heirs Pg 35 and The Thousand Thrones Pg 25, if anyone wants to check.
LiamOfOrmonde
67% lewd. Oh my!
- Location
- Florida Sometimes
Stromfels has a rule about not tolerating Manann worship.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Lovely update. I wish Cython were able to give us better pointers, but hard to get its help without spilling the beans.
Also, the bit about searching Mathilde's hair for grey makes me really hope that the next Arcane Mark we get is Aspect of Ulgu, which turns our hair grey. Then all we need to do is keep growing our hair until it's floor-length and bam, we're a Longplait, nobody can dispute it.
(I know hair that long is impractical in the extreme, but Mathilde's dwarf infection makes me really happy, so it is my earnest wish for it to continue.)
not -> no
Also, the bit about searching Mathilde's hair for grey makes me really hope that the next Arcane Mark we get is Aspect of Ulgu, which turns our hair grey. Then all we need to do is keep growing our hair until it's floor-length and bam, we're a Longplait, nobody can dispute it.
(I know hair that long is impractical in the extreme, but Mathilde's dwarf infection makes me really happy, so it is my earnest wish for it to continue.)
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I think it's probably best to go with the players who are straight-up quoting the source material here. Your DM almost certainly screwed up or changed the lore for some reason.
EDIT: I mean come on, literally none of those strictures is about Stromfels' primary domain, shipwrecking.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
Here I will quite this stright from the source so you guys can judge;
- Location
- Wherever I feel like being
- Pronouns
- He/Him
This was an absolutely incredible update. The talks with Cython and Belegar both showed that Mathilde has firmly established friendships with them, to the point that she can talk frankly about intimate subjects with Belegar without any issue, and that Cython recognizes when she's being pulled out of a conversation by questions rather than being rude.
The bit with Panoramia was both sweet and heartache inducing. Her mom is starting to sound like the kind of person whose "love" is dependent on how good their children make them look. Her father on the other hand, I really want to meet at some point. He sounds like a great man, and the fact that he was the one that essentially raised Panoramia into the kind, caring, mature person she is speaks incredibly well of him.
The bit with Panoramia was both sweet and heartache inducing. Her mom is starting to sound like the kind of person whose "love" is dependent on how good their children make them look. Her father on the other hand, I really want to meet at some point. He sounds like a great man, and the fact that he was the one that essentially raised Panoramia into the kind, caring, mature person she is speaks incredibly well of him.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I've never even seen a list of strictures for Stromfels. And I can guarantee you that list Codex posted is Manaan's.
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Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
I mean, he's not wrong. It probably doesn't help that our other main source of dwarves infection is Kragg. Though it is pretty hilarious that people—especially dwarves—are starting to call Mathilda old.
…Is it just me, or does this sound almost parental? It's hard to put my finger on it, but definitely sounds like how my mom would talk sometimes when I apologize for things that don't need it.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Stormfels has no canonical strictures in 2E. Maybe he does in 1E, but in 2E those strictures are exclusively Manaan's. If I were to venture a guess, the GM in question took Manaan's strictures and replaced Manaan's name with Stormfels. All that exists about Stormfels is the stuff about him in the usual sources like Tome of Salvation, but to bring information from a source that isn't used as often, here's what Page 25 of Thousand Thrones says about him:
"Stromfels, Lord of Predators
Known as the Wrecker, Stromfels represents the darker nature of the sea in its callous and brutal fury. His cult is devoted to predation on the high seas, including wrecking, piracy, and Human sacrifice. The Grey Barbed Shark that frequents the Sea of Claws is venerated as a sacred animal, and is called, "Stromfels' Kitty."
Stromfels is an ancient aspect of Manann, the God of the Seas. Worship of Stromfels was outlawed as a result of Marienburg's treaty with the Sea Elves in 2150. In the years following, the priests of Manann cut their ties to the cult of Stromfels and concealed Stromfels' association with their God. Despite this, Stromfels is still venerated by those who work on the sea and profit by the deaths of others."
"Stromfels, Lord of Predators
Known as the Wrecker, Stromfels represents the darker nature of the sea in its callous and brutal fury. His cult is devoted to predation on the high seas, including wrecking, piracy, and Human sacrifice. The Grey Barbed Shark that frequents the Sea of Claws is venerated as a sacred animal, and is called, "Stromfels' Kitty."
Stromfels is an ancient aspect of Manann, the God of the Seas. Worship of Stromfels was outlawed as a result of Marienburg's treaty with the Sea Elves in 2150. In the years following, the priests of Manann cut their ties to the cult of Stromfels and concealed Stromfels' association with their God. Despite this, Stromfels is still venerated by those who work on the sea and profit by the deaths of others."
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I think less about helping Panoramia with her Magister qualifications in the sense of "provide magical boost" and more in the sense of "provide moral support."
Like, she's not angsting about whether she has the actual talent to pass the exams. She's angsting about political and diplomatic aspects that any woman in her position, even in a totally nonmagical world where she was studying to do something perfectly mundane, could experience.
Her mom's part of the old clique and has weird ideas about what that signifies, her dad doesn't and brought her up to not really respect the clique's rules, her admission to the inner circle of the institution thus gets bound up in politics and what people think of her mom, plus her mom is right there as part of the testing committee, and oh my God.
She doesn't need some unique killer-app magic to put more pep in her step so she can pass.
She needs a literal shoulder to cry on, as illustrated at the tail end of this scene in this update even if the tears didn't actually come.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
That brings up the interesting question of where emotional maturity comes from. Not IRL, though that is without a doubt also interesting, but in a world with different sentient species aging and maturing at different speeds.
Like, does emotional maturity have a direct causal line to biological age even after fully completing puberty? Or does it just correlate because the more time one lives the more varied stuff one goes through?
And if it isn't caused by the biological age of the brain directly, what is it instead in the psychology of Dwarves (and Elves) that makes them slower to mature even after their prime (i.e. what would be the late twenties or early thirties among Humans)?
Among Dwarves my first guess would be that it's because their minds are less malleable and adaptable they require more experiences for the personality changes to skink in. But in some way that feels like it doesn't quite fit, because a single important event seems to affect them much more long term than Humans and their emotional memory lets them replay events and the feelings tied to them with much more frequency and fidelity than Humans. Though maybe that only applies to certain kinds of emotions and their (relative) inability to process and tranform past experiences in their minds is actually what's holding them back when it comes to developing emotional maturity.
What I definitely know is that I lack a psychology degree and that my knowledge on evolutionary xenopsychology is mostly just regurgitated pop psychology, half remembered stuff from a few educational videos, random meandering conversations with a family friend whose a therapist and maybe a blog post or two.
Still, definitely interested.
I think she's less about literally excluding men and outsiders from the Imperial institution of the Jade Order and more about excluding them from the inner circle, instead only willing to consider them as lay priests and assistants that shouldn't be authority figures or made privy to any secrets and mysteries. Essentially put the glass ceiling at "barely Magisters".
He kind of isn't though, right? How many Colleges consider Perpetual Apprentices "Wizards"?
There are old wizards, and there are bold wizards, and there are old, bold wizards and they are fucking terrifying.
Well then, this was an interesting update. The Panoramia part of the update was especially fascinating as the stress and conflict caused by the differences between Traditionalists, different sects, the Secular and more echoes the words that Joerg von Zavstra said during the Karag Dum Expedition when we Mathilde asked him about this for Panoramia.
"A man once sought to truly understand water, and followed every river he could find to its mouth. His conclusion was that the true nature of water is salty, and he died of thirst."
Which is particularly prophetic in the sense that the search and the debate for who is right is currently leading to continuous conflicts and harm towards around it whether they are participating in it or not in the case of Panoramia or other members or at it's worst leads to potentially greater harm to the entire Jade Order if it goes overboard.
"A man once sought to truly understand water, and followed every river he could find to its mouth. His conclusion was that the true nature of water is salty, and he died of thirst."
Which is particularly prophetic in the sense that the search and the debate for who is right is currently leading to continuous conflicts and harm towards around it whether they are participating in it or not in the case of Panoramia or other members or at it's worst leads to potentially greater harm to the entire Jade Order if it goes overboard.
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- Location
- Utrecht
Stromfels is Manann... from back before Manann was adopted, when he was one of the Elnill.
So, Manann has strictures forbidding worship of his past self.
But Stromfels is still a part of Manann... so the rituals that Stromfels likes still work.
So, Manann has strictures forbidding worship of his past self.
But Stromfels is still a part of Manann... so the rituals that Stromfels likes still work.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Ah, also, while Tome of Salvation is constantly used as the source for gods, there is a god in ToS that isn't granted any details but is further developed in Tome of Corruption. This is from Page 145 of Tome of Corruption, the Norsca section:
"Curiously, many Norsemen believe in Gods with strong parallels to those worshipped in the Empire, although no Norseman believes in Morr, since the afterlife is closed to all but the most courageous warriors. The Norse versions are always more savage and vicious than their southern counterparts. For example, the Skaeling tribe claims a Daemon God named Mermedus, often believed to be a dark reflection of Manaan, dwells beneath the Sea of Claws. They depict him as a bulbous and ghoulish figure, bloated in death, and covered in bulging eyes. It's said he walks on the sea floor, causing stormy waters to capsize ships and drown sailors. To appease this vile God, the Skaeling make Human and animal sacrifices, casting the weighted bodies down to distract the God from their voyage."
Oddly, Manaan might have the most variants of any of the major Old World gods. Manas, Manalt, Mermedus, Mathlann (or Manaan is a variant of Mathlann), Manhavok (maybe), Stormfels, Olovald (who is likely a different god that was absorbed by Manaan)...
Another note is that there are argumnets in the Cult of Manaan over where Manaan's influence ends. Everyone agrees that Manaan is the God of Storms, Oceans and the Sea. What people argue about is where that ends. Everyone agrees that Manaan is not a God of Lakes, he's a god of streams and moving water and not stagnant water. There are some who say that he is the God of Rivers, but others, such as the Taalites of the Talabec, refute that and say that that is Taal's domain as the Lord of the Wilds.
There are also numerous gods of specific rivers, like Aach the god of the Aach river in Ostland, Bogenraur god of the River Bogen in Bogenhafen, Altaver god of the River Aver, Gorol the God of Streams in Ostermark, Grandfather Reik God of the River Reik in Reikland, Ktharta Goddess of the Lake Delb in Delberz and Wulfor in Ostland God of the River Wolfen. It seems to me that despite the efforts of some priests, rivers are largely unclaimed territory, because it's the domain of several different gods who have a local sphere of influence. I suppose it makes sense considering how vital rivers are to daily life. I doubt most of these River Gods are variants of Manaan.
"Curiously, many Norsemen believe in Gods with strong parallels to those worshipped in the Empire, although no Norseman believes in Morr, since the afterlife is closed to all but the most courageous warriors. The Norse versions are always more savage and vicious than their southern counterparts. For example, the Skaeling tribe claims a Daemon God named Mermedus, often believed to be a dark reflection of Manaan, dwells beneath the Sea of Claws. They depict him as a bulbous and ghoulish figure, bloated in death, and covered in bulging eyes. It's said he walks on the sea floor, causing stormy waters to capsize ships and drown sailors. To appease this vile God, the Skaeling make Human and animal sacrifices, casting the weighted bodies down to distract the God from their voyage."
Oddly, Manaan might have the most variants of any of the major Old World gods. Manas, Manalt, Mermedus, Mathlann (or Manaan is a variant of Mathlann), Manhavok (maybe), Stormfels, Olovald (who is likely a different god that was absorbed by Manaan)...
Another note is that there are argumnets in the Cult of Manaan over where Manaan's influence ends. Everyone agrees that Manaan is the God of Storms, Oceans and the Sea. What people argue about is where that ends. Everyone agrees that Manaan is not a God of Lakes, he's a god of streams and moving water and not stagnant water. There are some who say that he is the God of Rivers, but others, such as the Taalites of the Talabec, refute that and say that that is Taal's domain as the Lord of the Wilds.
There are also numerous gods of specific rivers, like Aach the god of the Aach river in Ostland, Bogenraur god of the River Bogen in Bogenhafen, Altaver god of the River Aver, Gorol the God of Streams in Ostermark, Grandfather Reik God of the River Reik in Reikland, Ktharta Goddess of the Lake Delb in Delberz and Wulfor in Ostland God of the River Wolfen. It seems to me that despite the efforts of some priests, rivers are largely unclaimed territory, because it's the domain of several different gods who have a local sphere of influence. I suppose it makes sense considering how vital rivers are to daily life. I doubt most of these River Gods are variants of Manaan.
Clever of Belegar to maintain the "tradition" of having one non-dwarven member of his Council. Mathilde might have been a one off. Now it's a pattern, and a third one will make it a tradition. By making it his Steward he also sets the "tradition" that the non-dwarf doesn't have to be the Loremaster either. I am sure that all that went into his calculations, in addition to Francesco being a genuinely good choice.
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
So, I dozed off for a while and found my brain pondering scenarios in which Pan's mother tries to force her break up with Mat, for reasons ranging from wanting Pan to 'put her foolish rebelliousness behind her and return to pure traditions' to wanting Pan to marry a man and 'continue their ancient lineage', and Mathilde then having to duel Panmum over it. Now I'm no longer in a fog of semi-consciousness the duelling part is obviously ridiculous, but I'm still wondering if there's any validity to the core scenaros; what little info we have does paint Panmum as deeply traditional, after all, and Pan essentially marrying someone who is both a woman and from a completely different magical order flies hard in the face of the whole matriarchal lineage secret cult thing.
I've had a theory for a while now that the gods can be split into mystical and elemental aspects, just like the Eight Winds can. Under my theory, Stromfels, god of shipwrecks, is the mystical version of Manann, the elemental god of the ocean. Taal, God of the Hunt, is the Mystical version of Karnos, God of the Wild. Ulric embraces both the mystical elements (war, survival) and the elemental aspects (wolves, winter).
It's not a complete theory yet, and I'm sure there are arguments to swap the mystical/elemental halves of the gods I mentioned, and I'm still trying to work out where Ranalds four (five?) aspects fit—is the Protector Mystical? The Deceiver Elemental?
Elves don't notice this, because they treat their gods as cardinal, like their winds.
It's not a complete theory yet, and I'm sure there are arguments to swap the mystical/elemental halves of the gods I mentioned, and I'm still trying to work out where Ranalds four (five?) aspects fit—is the Protector Mystical? The Deceiver Elemental?
Elves don't notice this, because they treat their gods as cardinal, like their winds.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Just a note that it was Joerg von Zavstra, Preceptor of the Knights of Taal's Fury who said that, not Wulfhart Jr.
- Location
- Wherever I feel like being
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The Greys are basically the Secret Police of the Colleges. And Mathilde has been gathering a reputation that makes her scary. Even among Greys. I think that Panmum would try to put some pressure on Panoramia and Mathilde... and then wake up the next morning with a note pinned to her sleeping gown that simply says "Leave them alone." No signature, no trace of Ulgu. Nothing.
And Mathilde's former Master would be very smug for the next several months.
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Not sure that would work, gods are not two sided, they are many sided. Ulric for instance was only a god of winter to begin with and stone wolves off the defeated Ulric, same with Taal and Rheya eating a bunch of other nature gods.