Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Rafin]

that Rhya and Isha are entirely separate, and so on.

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Deathfang seems to be sure of it.

I'm curious how many divine magic signatures Cython can even tell apart by windsight alone. Maybe he isn't even as good as Mathilde at it.

 

[consequences]

so I'm going to make Francesco Caravello the new Steward when the time comes.

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Silk Sheets Ho!!!!!!!

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

Sometimes you're very glad to be part of the sensible Order.

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Mathilde, your bias is showing again.

All in all, this was an amazingly warm update, I loved it. We're such good friends with all these characters, and it really shows.

... I wonder if Cython would let us ride them into battle? Elspeth and Asarnil do it, and it would be nice to join the cool kids club.

 

[QuietlyObserving]

Fluff with Pan, vibing with Cython, being wholesome with Belebro again.

Inject this shit right into my veeeeins.

 

[Rafin]

The worst part is, if I had just done it as soon as possible, Ma would have still been just a Magister. But now she's a Lady Magister

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Is this where Mathilde learns IC about this? Thus only now realizing that she actively had the chance to recruit Panoramia's father? I'm curious if she's gonna tell Pan about that barely missed pothole.

Because hiring the one secular non-traditionalist whose wife may well be the current leader of traditionalism (in direct opposition to her wrong-gendered Patriarch) with the daughter caught in the middle being also our girlfriend... Hoo boy.

Edit: Based on the description of each choice, Paranoth knew about Culloch's beliefs on the matter. And also explicitly did not propose the Lady Magister who in her own opinion was the most qualified, but instead her "not really a Druid" husband who would be sharing all these "historical facts" with an outsider viewpoint. I'm glad that that in particular is not the plothook we chose and am looking forward to seeing what Divided Loyalties™ complications Grunfeld brings to the table instead.

 

[Boney]

Is this where Mathilde learns IC about this? Thus only now realizing that she actively had the chance to recruit Panoramia's father?

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She wondered because the thread wondered, but this confirmed it for her.

I'm curious if she's gonna tell Pan about that barely missed pothole.

Because hiring the one secular non-traditionalist whose wife may well be the current leader of traditionalism (in direct opposition to her wrong-gendered Patriarch) with the daughter caught in the middle being also our girlfriend... Hoo boy.

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There's no benefit and a bunch of potential awkwardness in that, so no.

 

[Rafin]

She wondered because the thread wondered, but this confirmed it for her.

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I wondered because you told us before this update that Pan's mom became an LM, so I wasn't sure if at the time that was completely OOC information or if it was something Mathilde learned off screen.

 

[Codex]

I absolutely love this update. It was very comfy and pleasing to read. I have a lot to say, so buckle in:

By the time Paranoth wanders onwards once more, leaving the Halflings a great deal of food and ale poorer but a few interesting seeds and cuttings richer,

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I like the little tidbit about Paranoth just carrying around seeds and cuttings from his travels for some reason. That he can afford to just give them away either says something about how much he collects, that he can just duplicate them, or that he just does it for fun and not for work.

"Don't take it personally," you say soothingly to her the evening after Paranoth's departure, sitting close together in front of the fire. "Long-term investment needs to take a back seat to the immediate realities. That's the entire history of the Karaz Ankor too, and it's not like the Dwarves don't value ambitious projects."

She sighs. "I suppose, but it's still frustrating. It's... it's like I'm building a great cathedral, but everyone's paying attention to the way I poured the concrete for the foundations."

"From what I understand, you built those foundations on the botanical equivalent of a swamp. I think you've been too close to it for too long to remember how big a deal that is. You're feeding a big part of a Karak out of what was very recently a wasteland, and that's something that's bankable now. There's a lot of wasteland out there, and a lot of people that could use more feeding."

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Mathilde being a comforting girlfriend is very nice. I knew that Panoramia would take issue with Paranoth's pragmatism. She's always been a bit of an idealist, missing the trees for the forest. I think I just butchered an idiom and that's fine.

"Yes, that's... that's true, I know that. I do. And I do appreciate being appreciated, but now it's... well, now I've got no excuse, do I? The Magister Patriarch came here and told me to write up how I did it, and considering he ate the crops that came from that soil I can't really argue that it's not ready, can I? And if I'm writing and submitting it anyway, if I don't submit it as a Masterpiece then it's not me just taking my time any more, it's me actively refusing to be promoted. And then it..." She trails off, and sighs.

"And then it becomes a thing?"

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I knew that Panoramia definitely had the skills for being a Magister, and I guess this is just confirming she's dragging her feet for personal reasons. I suppose this is the "consequence" for us not assisting her with preparations. I don't think we were obligated to push her into the exam when she wasn't comfortable with it, but now she has to contend with her mother being a Lady Magister making things complicated.

"Then it becomes a thing. And it's a... I don't know what promotion is like for the Greys, but for Jade Apprentices, every year after Mitterfruhl is a month and a half of ceremony and study and then at the end you either get your sickle or you don't. I hated it, I hated it every time. You know what I'm like in late Spring, I want to be out there doing things, not trapped with all the other Apprentices, mouthing along with the stupid rituals and being resented by the outsiders for being an insider, being resented by the traditionalists for not believing, and being resented by the modernists for my mother. So when I got the silver, I left. Ostermark first, because it was as far as I could get from Altdorf without leaving the Empire, and the Mordheim campaign, then King Belegar put the call out. You know the rest. You've been there for the rest" She smiles at you, and finds your hand with hers, and you smile back.

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I really didn't expect her to have so many complicated feelings about her position in the Order. She really didn't give me that vibe when we first met her, probably because of how easily she fit in. I guess being separated from the frankly toxic atmosphere she was in let her thrive.

You sit there for a while, and Panoramia's smile fades as she turns her attention inwards, organizing her thoughts into something that can be said. "Ma taught me," she eventually says, "but Da raised me. And Da doesn't believe in the Old Faith. Ma never saw it that way, Ma sees it as him staying out of proper Druid business because he's not a proper Druid. She doesn't think men have a place in the Order, I don't think she even thinks we should be recruiting outsiders. 'Mother teaching daughter, since the dawn of time'. It makes me so angry, and from both directions. I'm angry that she can't accept me believing the same thing that Da believes, and I'm angry that she doesn't see Da as a proper part of the Order."

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Oh damn this is a bigger deal than I thought. She doesn't think men have a place in the order yet the Patriarch of her Order is a man. I suppose that explains a good deal of the friction between Paranoth and some of the Old Faith. I don't think all of them follow the Cult of the Mother, that seems like a specific sub cult, but restricting Jades to only 1/2 of the population is not a good idea.

She sighs and is quiet for a while, then looks at you and grimances. "I'm sorry, I know it's nothing compared to what you went through with your family-"

"No," you interrupt, "don't do that. This is hurting you now, that's what matters."

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I'm glad Mathilde told her that. Yes, what Mathilde went through was tragic and horrible, but just because someone went through something worse doesn't mean that you shouldn't vent about your own problems. There is no competition here, everyone deserves to say their piece and come to terms with it. Mathilde is also emphasizing that what happened to her is behind her, whereas what Panoramia is going through is an ongoing thing that she's left festering untreated for a while now.

Her hand squeezes yours. "I guess I had fooled myself into thinking that I could just put it off forever. The worst part is, if I had just done it as soon as possible, Ma would have still been just a Magister. But now she's a Lady Magister, so she'll be part of the Sonnstill gathering, who adjudicate the Magister tests. So half the High Druids will be going easy on me because of her, and the other half will be twice as hard because of her, and she'll be damn sure to use the old oaths and the full ceremonies, and no part of any of it would be about me. It would all be about her."

You don't know what to say about that, so you don't say anything. You just put your arm around her and pull her to your side, and she exhales and rests her head on your shoulder. Sometimes you're very glad to be part of the sensible Order.

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I fully understand what it's like to have a parent more concerned about what it means for them than it does for you. Those parents who treat their children as extensions of themselves... Panoramia's mom sounds serously self absorbed. I don't think I'd like her very much.

As a side note, I like to think that Mathilde is built like a muscular mini fridge, and I can't help but seethe jealously at how good Panoramia's got it.

"Of the Elves, the Ellinilli are easily the most numerous, even after their culling. And then there is Nethu, born of a dalliance between Asuryan and Ereth Khial. Already we have a strong contrast, as Ellinill sired a hundred alone, budding them off from his individual facets, while Nethu's origin is very biological for beings lacking in flesh."

"Among the Old Gods, Manann is said to be the son of Taal and Rhya, and Shallya and Myrmidia the daughters of Morr and Verena."

"And the Gods of the Dwarves consist of a single family, with three biological children and one adopted child of their pinnacle triumvirate. What conclusions can be drawn from this group?"

You frown. "There's not that many, for a start."

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I was a bit surprised that there wasn't even an offhand mention of how many gods have "siblings" and how that factors into the whole equation, but I suppose the question was about children rather than family. I was always under the impression that Gazul was adopted as a sibling, and that he doesn't count as an adopted "child".

"Wherever it is that Gods typically come from, it seems parentage is an oddity - or perhaps They have reason to keep it secret most of the time. There's also significant variation in what that relationship means. Ellinill budded off children ass a path to power, splitting them off from His individual facets, and when that relationship threatened more than it benefited He sought to reverse that process and regain the power lost. In this we find support for my 'territory' model of divinity. Ellinill lessened Himself by withdrawing from individual facets of disaster to create His children, and attempted to regain that strength by retaking that conceptual territory."

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A note that you have Elinill budded off children "ass" a path to power. While it wouldn't be out of place for him to bud his children like pimples off his asscheeks, I assume you didn't mean that

More seriously, I'm wondering what Cython means about Ellinill budding as a path to power. What benefit is there to splitting his domain into multiple smaller ones? Expanding his domain?

"It depends how separable a God is from Their domain. The intuitive models for beings of flesh is that a God is a single discrete entity that lives within Its domain, but beings of spirit may not be so limited. It could be that a God expands and contracts to match the territory It exists within, thus there would be little difference between supplanting and consuming. In either case, it seems that a God can create another God by either withdrawing from enough territory for a new God to emerge, or by splitting off the part of Themselves that occupies that territory. Similar to how a dragon with a greater territory than it requires might grant some to a child, so that a possible ally would be close at hand."

You frown in concentration as you consider this. This would make a God more like a nation than a single being, drawing belief from those living within a conceptual territory just as a nation draws tax from those living within its borders. If you take this metaphor further... Ellinill split off a hundred city-states from its territory for... probably similar reasons that the Empire grants Imperial City charters, but then reconquered them over fears they would secede completely? If you turned this metaphor on its head and considered nations to be like Gods, would Marienburg be a son of the Empire?

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This is somewhat similar to my conception of the gods. I generally view them as amorphous blobs that encompass a particular "domain" that a bunch of them share, but rarely do multiple gods share all of the exact same domains and concepts, and that's what defines the differences between them. For example, I think Ranald, Loec, Lileath, Morai Heg, share the Domain of "Luck/Fate/Fortune", but Ranald has the domain of "Protection", Loec has the Domain of "Dance/Theatre", Lileath has the Domain of "Moon" and Morai Heg has the Domain of "Death", all of which are shared with other gods and not those same ones that Fate is shared with (Valaya sharing Protection with Ranald, Morr, Gazul and Djaf sharing Death with Morai Heg, and Neru and Manaan sharing Moon with Lileath).

You explain this line of thinking to Cython, and it considers it for a while before nodding. "The 'nation' model might be a more familiar fit for you, and does not differ meaningfully from my 'territory' model. Let us move to the example set by the Gods of your people - firstly, Manann." Cython waves its head from side to side in the draconic equivalent of a furrowed brow. "Let us say, for the sake of argument, that Taal and Kurnous are entirely separate, that Rhya and Isha are entirely separate, and so on. I do not believe this to be the case, but I acknowledge it as unlikely but possible that the wilds of one continent might be conceptually separate to the wilds of another, and that the similarities could be coincidence, resonance, and cultural osmosis. But I do not believe there is any rational argument for Manann and Mathlann to be separate beings. On top of all the same similarities, both Gods are of the same ocean. The same waters the Elves say are dominated by Mathlann, your people say are dominated by Manann, and despite close contact between the sailors of your people and they, there is no conflict between the two. This raises an immediate problem with the idea that Manann is the child of Taal and Rhya, because Mathlann is one of the Ellinilli."

"Unless the concept is sufficiently different for Gods that it is possible for two separate sets of parents to make sense."

Cython gives an amused slow-blink. "But we have already mentioned an example of this very phenomena among the Gods."

You run back the conversation in your mind. "Are you suggesting Manann was adopted?"

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Cython's conception of the gods seems less inclined to focus on individuals and more on territories. I suppose that comes from Cython's existence as a Dragon, where they view things in a territorial manner rather than from an individualistic perspective. Yes Mathlann and Manaan share the same ocean, but Manaan is worshipped by human society and Mathlann by Elven society. The viewpoint, perspective and manner of worshipping Mathlann and Manaan are not quite the same, and one could argue that it's possible that they are different by the mere fact that the people who worship them are different.

"Here we arrive at the second type of parentage: metaphor. Manann grew beyond the constrains of His original family, becoming a God of the ocean in general instead of a single variety of disaster related to it - the question of how exactly that occurred is one for another time. And as a result of this transformation, He became more accepted by His worshippers. On Ulthuan, He is part of the inner ring of their Pantheonic Mandala, while Estreuth, Addaioth, Hukon, Drakira, and even Ellinill languish in the outer. And among the humans of your continent, just as Valaya and Grungni and Grimnir adopted Gazul, Taal and Rhya adopted Manann."

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For those who don't know what Cython is talking about, the Pantheonic Mandela refers to the order in which you align gods in terms of preference/reverence. The god at the center is the most revered god, then there's the inner circle depicting the 8 most revered gods aside from the head of the Pantheon, followed by the Outer Circle which indicates ones with less of a following. There is a general Pantheonic Mandela, but it can greatly differ from person to person.

The Asur of Ulthuan who put Asuryan in the middle, the Cadai (Gods of Heaven) in the Inner Circle and Cytharai (Gods of the Underworld) in the outer circle (for the most part).

The Asrai of Athel Loren put Kurnous/Isha in the centre, nature gods in the Inner Circle and all the others in Outer. It tends to be the mandela that fluctuates the most, because the Asrai are unpredictable and can be absolutely horrific murderers or good guys depending on their mood, the seasonal alignment, the star signs, the time of day etc.

The Druchii of Naggaroth put Khaine in the centre, the Cytharai in the Inner Circle and Cadai in the Outer Circle.

Notice how Mathlann is the only Cytharai who is in Ulthuan's Inner Circle, as he is venerated by Eataine and Cothique quite heavily. His siblings' names are given above and they are Drakira the Goddess of Vengeance, Hukon the Sunderer god of Earthquakes, Estreuth God of Famine and Addaioth Bringer of Fire and God of Volcanoes. Fun fact about Addaioth, apparently he constantly tries to craft weapons in volcanos so he can build something he can kill his father with, but he's so bad at making weapons that he throws them away in rage and that causes volcanoes to erupt. Apparently Elves consider volcanic eruptions "There's Addaioth, back at it again with another garbage weapon". He's too prideful to seek training or apprentice to Vaul I guess.

Cython exhales. "Not while I am constrained by the possibility of the separation of the Ulthuan and Classical Pantheons. Instead I have something much more ephemeral. It is..." It snorts. "It is too neat. Where death meets wisdom, you find mercy and martial prowess? It is too elegant to have arisen from the random strife of existence. There is some invisible hand at play here. To me this can only be an extension of parentage as metaphor, either from the Gods themselves or from mere mortal theologians stumbling across poetry too beguiling not to incorporate."

You consider retorting, but Cython appears perfectly aware that this is an idea that needs considerable more time in the soil to sprout, and that digging it up would do it no favours.

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I think it should be mentioned that Myrmidia didn't start out as the Goddess of Martial Prowess. Back when she was the Goddess of Tylos, she was just the Goddess of Civilisation, and it was only after she became disgusted at the building of the tower that doomed Kavzar that she left and later wandered the world and gave up her pacifist ways to become more focused on strategy and war during her adventures as a mortal. Even now, while she is often simplified as a Goddess of War by the Empire who fail to understand her other intricacies, she is still very much a goddess of beauty, civilisation and even science to Tileans and Estalians. Leonardo Da Miragliano is just as much an adherent of Myrmidia as Fury, the Shieldmaiden of Myrmidia.

"Very well. I take it that next is a third model of parentage, a more biological one?"

"The Dwarves have extensive records of the births of each of the three children of their triumvirate. By all appearances, the Dwarven Ancestor-Gods were biological when They were walking the earth. I do not think there is insight to be found in the nature of Gods by studying Them before they had ascended. But there is one left in our sample, is there not?"

"Nethu," you say. "Son of Asuryan, you said? Isn't Asuryan supposed to be married?"

"And Ulthuani belief would tell you that when Ereth Khial attempted to seduce Him, He rebuffed her and remained loyal to Lileath. But Nehekhara has the very same myth between the Sun God Ptra, the Moon Goddess Neru, and the jealous usurper Sakhmet, but in this version Sakhmet uses trickery and illusion to usurp the position of Neru for a night. While it is easy to see this as a mythologization of the phenomena you know as Hexensnacht, the similarities are too many to be coincidence. I believe the Kingdom of the Dead preserves a tale that the orthodoxy of modern Ulthuan rejects - the conception of Nethu."

"If this is the case, then we have a very biological birth among the Gods."

"That would seem to be the case. And I do not think it too unlikely. While the Gods themselves may owe nothing to biology, they are bound to mortal beings that very much do. In the same way that Gods can reasonably be thought of has having two arms and two legs, it is entirely possible that they may be similarly equipped with the more distracting paraphernalia of flesh, and the consequences that those distractions can lead to."

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I noted the similarities between Ptra and Neru, but I didn't consider Ereth Khial being compared to Sakhmet. Does Cython just ignore Sakhmet's connection to Morrisleb, or do they consider it and thought "eh it fits Ereth Khial"? I wonder if there's any Nehekharan God who is stated to be Ptra's child, or if there is any Nehekharan God with domains that would fit Neru. In Nehekhara the God of War and Death is Djaf, and the God of the Underworld who watches over the gate and manages everything is Usirian. I don't think either fit.

While there's a great deal of opinion, speculation, and pure guesswork in all of that, it's definitely thought provoking. Three models of Godly children: territorial, metaphorical, and biological. A territorial child of Ranald and Shallya would originate in a conceptual subset of one or the other, or perhaps one on the cusp of both. Righteous vigilantism? Protection of the weak? Stealing from the rich, giving to the poor? The overlaps between Shallya the Merciful and Ranald the Protector make it very easy to invent possible identities for territorial children. And if they follow the example of Mathlann, it's possible that the children could have evolved beyond this conceptual nursery.

A metaphorical child of Ranald and Shallya would represent an adoption, a God that had abandoned a previous position to take up one aligned with Ranald and Shallya. You're reminded of the pilgrimage of the followers of the Ancient Widow, and their abandonment of Chaos worship in the Great Steppes to build a bulwark against Chaos in the lands now known as Kislev - but you already know something of the relationship between the Widow and Ranald, and it is a frosty one, not one enshrined in metaphor. And that these children are ones not generally known goes against the entire concept of metaphorical familial relationships among the Gods, does it not?

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There's way too many options for a metaphorical framework of a combination between Shallya and Ranald. Their domains fit very well in a "dashing rogue" kind of way.

Nethu is the Gatekeeper of Mirai, where the souls of those stolen or seduced away from Morai-heg toil in servitude to Ereth Khial.

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This single line alone says much. For those who don't know, in canon 8th Edition Slaanesh takes the souls of dead Elves because he finds them delicious, and Ereth Khial steals away some of those souls to keep in the Underworld for them to toil in eternity for her. Loec also tricks Slaanesh out of some of the souls every now and then, playing games of wits cus he likes screwing with Slaanesh. The Wood Elves and High Elves both have methods to bind their dead souls to waystones or trees to ensure that their souls don't go to either Slaanesh or Ereth Khial, and some people pray to Ereth Khial hoping that they could be captured by her instead of Slaanesh. Boney dislikes the Slaanesh lore of 8th Edition, so this single line tells me a lot about how he decided things should go.

It seems in this case Morai Heg has her own domain where she holds the souls of dead Elves, and Ereth Khial tries to steal the souls from her and bring them to Mirai. I vastly prefer this.

A metaphorical child of Ranald and Shallya would represent an adoption, a God that had abandoned a previous position to take up one aligned with Ranald and Shallya. You're reminded of the pilgrimage of the followers of the Ancient Widow, and their abandonment of Chaos worship in the Great Steppes to build a bulwark against Chaos in the lands now known as Kislev - but you already know something of the relationship between the Widow and Ranald, and it is a frosty one, not one enshrined in metaphor. And that these children are ones not generally known goes against the entire concept of metaphorical familial relationships among the Gods, does it not?

Thirdly, biological. Ranald and Shallya are often depicted with human forms, and according to this theory those forms would still be able to... engage in the sorts of activities that result in children. But if you discount the Dwarven examples, then you are left with only Nethu, who you know next to nothing about. You make a foray into your library, returning with the few Dwarven books on the Elves that might have mention of Him. Several hours later you're left with a very few scraps of information: Nethu is the Gatekeeper of Mirai, where the souls of those stolen or seduced away from Morai-heg toil in servitude to Ereth Khial. This is the trouble of a sample size of one: you cannot tell if this close tie to the mother is part of being a 'biological' child of a God, or a product of Ereth Khial's controlling personality that would not apply to what you would hope to be a healthier relationship between Ranald and Shallya and their own children. You do find mention that Nethu is also the God of Dark Pegasi, the bat-winged, flesh-eating flying horses of Naggarond, and this appears to be unique to Him, rather than something shared with His mother - though you do not have anywhere near enough sources to say that with any confidence.

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Nethu has a bit more than that I think. His symbol is that of a harp, and he seems to be a bit of a reference to Orpheus. He uses his harp to tease the souls of Elves from their body and carries an onyx key that unlocks the door to Mirai. In 7th Edition, some Dark Elves wear amulets of Nethu fashioned from bone bound with raw sinew to protect against disease.

In 8th Edition, it is said making the sigil of Nethu on a piece of property belonging to an Elf will gradually sap away at their soul until they waste away and Dark Elves think it is hilarious to sneak into the bedrooms of High Elf officials and put the sigil under their beds so Nethu will nab them away. It's stated in 8th Edition Dark Elves that Malekith ordered that sigils of Nethu would be drawn on Phoenix King Morvael's bed and belongings so he would fall into depression, which eventually culminated in Mentheus his best friend (imo a bit more than that) dying and leading to his suicide.

So I guess he's also a God of Harps and Misery.

You sigh in frustration, looking up from your book and blinking at the dragon across from you that you'd completely forgotten about. "I'm sorry, I just dropped completely out of that conversation. That was very rude of me."

Cython looks up from its own book, tilting its head in mild confusion. "Why apologize? You stopped talking because you had gathered so many questions, you had not choice but to pursue them. I know of very few better ways for a conversation to end."

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Cython is quite understand, probably because they go through the very same thing that Mathilde does.

"My initial thought was a diplomat of some sort, but I eventually decided to take the opportunity to do some further reorganizing," Belegar says to you as the two of you walk through the construction site of your library. "Edda will be stepping down as Steward in the coming months."

"Is everything okay with her?" you ask, concerned. It's not unknown for Advisors to Dwarven Kings to be dismissed, but it's normally prepared for far in advance when the person involved would be entangled in so many ongoing projects.

"She's grumbling, but she understands the necessity. Between you and me, her Clan and Kazador's are in some rather hurried nuptial negotiations. The sort with an immovable deadline."

You take that in. In theory, a child conceived out of wedlock is a source of great shame. In practice, Dwarven children are rare enough that everyone will pretend not to notice a heavily pregnant bride, and will swear on their beard that the child born a month later must be extremely premature and declare it a miracle from Valaya that it was born in perfect health despite that. "Then I suppose I will soon owe them my congratulations."

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The moral of the story is that if you don't want children, you should use protection. Although I suppose protection could have failed. I'm happy for her in a sense, since she no longer has to hide, but I suppose she's not so happy about losing her job.

"Her Clan back in Karak Izor are grumbling - I think they still had hopes of her marrying me - but her Clan here are overjoyed. I'm pleased with it, myself. The more ties with Karak Azul, the better. With Edda having established Dwarven industry so thoroughly, we have the opportunity to turn our attention to less traditional methods, so I'm going to make Francesco Caravello the new Steward when the time comes. There's going to be a lot of trade negotiations happening once the five passes are fully secured, and he has the knowledge and he's proven himself trustworthy.

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Good for Francesco. I suppose he's replaced Mathilde as the Token Human on the council.

And I want him keeping an eye on the east, too - there's rumours of a new Overtyrant among the Ogres, and that could really interfere with trade.

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Ah. Nice to see that Greasus has gained his position like in canon. I was wondering if that would be butterflied or not even as I wrote my omakes. Greasus heralds the beginning of a new age in a sense, since it means lots more contact with the East.

"More or less. So if we don't have troubles today, we should lay in for the troubles of tomorrow. I've brought in a promising young Engineer named Okri Drakkisson of Clan Bronzebeard - Karak Norn's offshoot of Karak Drazh's Stonebeards, cousins to the Karak Eight Peaks Stonebeards."

"'Promising' and 'young' seem a bit less than what Karak Eight Peaks could have attracted," you observe sceptically.

"Aye, though I've heard good things about him. I'm hoping that through him I can bring in others from his Clan to refound the Karak Drazh Stonebeards, one more general in purpose than the modern Gyrocopter-focused Karak Eight Peaks Stonebeards. His father would be the real catch, he's said to be a genius with steam and hydraulics."

You refrain from further comment, somewhat disappointed that your successor is so prosaic. But you suppose it's a good thing that Karak Eight Peaks no longer needs a strange and exotic troubleshooter any more. If anyone's earned the right to some boring and run-of-the-mill build-up, it's the Dwarves. "I'm glad Karak Eight Peaks is secure enough to invest in the future in this way."

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I have to ask, is this the fabled, legendary "Cousin Okri" that Bardin Goreksson of Vermintide fame keeps going on about?

He nods. "As am I. The only downside is that now my Clan is pushing more than ever for me to get married, and I've run out of reasons why not to."

"Does the thought terrify you so?"

"Of a wife? Not so much. But of having children I could fail... that scares me more than anything. There's been times over the years where I've drawn great comfort that if I failed, I've failed no worse than a great many of my ancestors. But the thought of having children to pass the crown to, children I might fail to pass the crown to..." He shakes his head. "The price of climbing higher, it seems, is that it gives you further to fall."

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Aw, I want to reach across the screen and give Belegar a hug. He worries so much about failing others that he often doesn't consider himself. I really want him to start thinking about what would make him happy rather than what would make others happy. I suppose that doesn't really come easy to someone who's lived 90 years with a legacy like his.

"So don't fall."

He chuckles. "That simple, eh?"

"Nothing we've achieved here has been simple, but we've achieved it anyway. It would be good to have some little Princes or Princesses Ironhammer running around the place. If you truly don't want to then by all means let the crown pass to a nephew or something, but don't let fear be the only reason you don't."

He frowns at you. "Didn't you step down from giving advice?"

"I stepped down from being paid for giving advice. You're still getting it, whether you want it or not." He gives you a scrutinizing look. "What?"

"Just checking your plaits for grey hairs. You've spent so long around us Dwarves that you're turning into a longbeard."

"Have you forgotten you're more than twice my age?"

"Aye, I often do."

You pat him companionably on the shoulder, and the two of you continue your walk through the construction site.

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Absolutely brilliant, incredible, amazing, show stopping, spectacular, fantastic, lovely.....

I don't think words can express how much I liked the update. Thanks @Boney.

 

[BurnNote]

He frowns at you. "Didn't you step down from giving advice?"

"I stepped down from being paid for giving advice. You're still getting it, whether you want it or not." He gives you a scrutinizing look. "What?"

"Just checking your plaits for grey hairs. You've spent so long around us Dwarves that you're turning into a longbeard."

"Have you forgotten you're more than twice my age?"

"Aye, I often do."

You pat him companionably on the shoulder, and the two of you continue your walk through the construction site.

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This part made me laugh loudly. But it's also pretty sweet, because age is a huge deal for dwarfs, though Mathilde being a human makes things fuzzy.

And he's kind of right, Mathilde had great Grandma energy (wizard grandmas, being someone old in a profession that kills people, are to be feared) in this scene, and by dwarf reckoning, she does all the Longbeard things, so she must be a Longbeard.

What I really like about this though, is how understated it really is. Neither makes a big deal out of it, because at this point in their relationship, it isn't anymore.

Cython looks up from its own book, tilting its head in mild confusion. "Why apologize? You stopped talking because you had gathered so many questions, you had not choice but to pursue them. I know of very few better ways for a conversation to end

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It's moments like this I can pretend we're dating Cython. Intense discussions over the nature of gods and metaphysics, and when you need a book break, it's expected and right and proper. It's just missing a little cuddling.

 

[Codex]

So I'm just throwing it out there.

Myrmiddia isn't the goddess of Martial Prowess and War.

At least, she wasn't initially. She started of as the goddess of civilization as outlined in her other domains. Only after she lived as a mortal and conquered Estalia, Tilea, and the Border Princes was she known as a war god after her mortal life ended.

Food for thought.

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If anyone is curious, this is a Vermintide 2 reference.

Belegar is recruiting Cousin Okri, in the hopes of getting his father, Drakki Dagsson- the Dwarf that laid down the foundation for this:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvg9rHP_2-Y

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I got Mathilde'd. Twice. I guess that's what happens when I make giant monstrous posts.

This is probably about Greasus.

When the quest started, Greasus wasn't Overtyrant yet, given he did it in 2482 IC, so there's no reason why he would have become Overtyrant at the same time.

This could be him becoming Overtyrant now, or it could be something else.

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Greasus became Tyrant of the Goldtooths 2482 IC, he became Overtyrant 5 years later in 2487 IC, and I believe soon after he met up with Zhao Ming in the Tower of Ashshair to create the treaty he needed for safe passage into Cathay, or maybe that was in the 5 years in between. It doesn't matter, it's likely to have happened by this point.

"2482 IC The Rise of Greasus the Great:
Greasus Goldtooth claims the role of Tyrant for the Gold tooth tribe by eating his father, Gofg, after a challenge.

2487 IC Greasus Goldtooth Triumphant:
Greasus declares himself Overtyrant of the Ogre Kingdoms, which have been without an Overtyrant since the demise of Donner Gutbag in an avalanche some 100 years earlier. Through the education of Greasus, Gold is finally recognised as being just as valuable as red meat throughout much of the Ogre Kingdoms and a new reign begins." Page 23 8th Edition Ogre Kingdoms Army Book

 

[Boney]

I wondered because you told us before this update that Pan's mom became an LM, so I wasn't sure if at the time that was completely OOC information or if it was something Mathilde learned off screen.

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Mathilde didn't know.

More seriously, I'm wondering what Cython means about Ellinill budding as a path to power. What benefit is there to splitting his domain into multiple smaller ones? Expanding his domain?

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For multitasking purposes, it seems like. More Gods means more attention to go around means more ability to micromanage each catastrophe for maximum carnage.

I noted the similarities between Ptra and Neru, but I didn't consider Ereth Khial being compared to Sakhmet. Does Cython just ignore Sakhmet's connection to Morrisleb, or do they consider it and thought "eh it fits Ereth Khial"? I wonder if there's any Nehekharan God who is stated to be Ptra's child, or if there is any Nehekharan God with domains that would fit Neru. In Nehekhara the God of War and Death is Djaf, and the God of the Underworld who watches over the gate and manages everything is Usirian. I don't think either fit.

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Cython mentioned the Morrsleib connection obliquely. Hexensnacht is when Morrsleib is full and Mannsleib is absent, and Cython's theory is that the Sekhmet-Morrsleib connection is a mythologization of Sekhmet boinking the moon's husband and thus 'taking her place'.

Nethu has a bit more than that I think. His symbol is that of a harp, and he seems to be a bit of a reference to Orpheus. He uses his harp to tease the souls of Elves from their body and carries an onyx key that unlocks the door to Mirai. In 7th Edition, some Dark Elves wear amulets of Nethu fashioned from bone bound with raw sinew to protect against disease.

In 8th Edition, it is said making the sigil of Nethu on a piece of property belonging to an Elf will gradually sap away at their soul until they waste away and Dark Elves think it is hilarious to sneak into the bedrooms of High Elf officials and put the sigil under their beds so Nethu will nab them away. It's stated in 8th Edition Dark Elves that Malekith ordered that sigils of Nethu would be drawn on Phoenix King Morvael's bed and belongings so he would fall into depression, which eventually culminated in Mentheus his best friend (imo a bit more than that) dying and leading to his suicide.

So I guess he's also a God of Harps and Misery.

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Mathilde suffered from only had the Extensive Dwarven books on Ulthuan to look through for scraps of information on Nethu.

I have to ask, is this the fabled, legendary "Cousin Okri" that Bardin Goreksson of Vermintide fame keeps going on about?

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A younger and less fabled version.

And he's kind of right, Mathilde had great Grandma energy (wizard grandmas, being someone old in a profession that kills people, are to be feared) in this scene, and by dwarf reckoning, she does all the Longbeard things, so she must be a Longbeard.

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Their relationship is evolving in an unusual way because of the species difference. When they first met, Mathilde was the equivalent of a very young Fullbeard, and Belegar was a Fullbeard halfway to being a Longbeard. Now Mathilde is pretty much the equivalent of a Longbeard, and Belegar is... slightly more than halfway to being a Longbeard. Belegar still has a metric shitload more life experience, but Mathilde is beginning to outstrip him in emotional maturity.

 

[Jreengus]

Cython looks up from its own book, tilting its head in mild confusion. "Why apologize? You stopped talking because you had gathered so many questions, you had not choice but to pursue them. I know of very few better ways for a conversation to end."

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This was great, gave me a good chuckle.

Next turn we should copy the thelogical books of Eonir I think.

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I'd rather go for empire books to get our minor gods of the empire section filled out and after that conversation some books on the tomb kings version of Nethu. That then leaves one additional slot to pick something for.

@Boney would "Gods of Nehekara" be a single library purchase category or is there enough written about them for individual gods to be their own category? Also who's the Nehekaran version of Nethu? I don't think a name was given in the update.

 

[Artemis1992]

Oh damn this is a bigger deal than I thought. She doesn't think men have a place in the order yet the Patriarch of her Order is a man. I suppose that explains a good deal of the friction between Paranoth and some of the Old Faith. I don't think all of them follow the Cult of the Mother, that seems like a specific sub cult, but restricting Jades to only 1/2 of the population is not a good idea.

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"No outsiders" is much worse, since taking only daughters from already druidic lines leaves the Order with maybe what, a dozen potential apprentices per generation?
Two dozen?

Even if it's more, it's not nearly enough for the Jade order to stay relevant in the Colleges.
She would essentially kill the Jade Order and have a tiny mystery-cult that doesn't contribute much of any worth to the Empire, endangering their entire legal foundation.

Edit: THis might not be her conscious intent, but it is a possible consequence of her beliefs.

 

[Boney]

@Boney would "Gods of Nehekara" be a single category or is there enough written about them for individual gods to be their own category?

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It would be a single category outside of Nehekharan and Arabyan sources.

Also who's the Nehekaran version of Nethu? I don't think a name was given in the update.

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Sokth.

 

[mathymancer]

I'd rather go for empire books to get our minor gods of the empire section filled out and after that conversation some books on the tomb kings version of Nethu. That then leaves one additional slot to pick something for.

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Books on minor Gods of the Empire are probably going to only go up to extensive, like other Empire books on Gods (except Ranald for obvious reasons). If that is the case, using the library for that would be a waste - we should buy them out of pocket, and either use the library for other topics where we can get up to esoteric or just choose back-fill for maximum book tonnage.

 

[Codex]

"No outsiders" is much worse, since taking only daughters from already druidic lines leaves the Order with maybe what, a dozen potential apprentices per generation?
Two dozen?

Even if it's more, it's not nearly enough for the Jade order to stay relevant in the Colleges.
She would essentially kill the Jade Order and have a tiny mystery-cult that doesn't contribute much of any worth to the Empire, endangering their entire legal foundation.

Edit: THis might not be her conscious intent, but it is a possible consequence of her beliefs.

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In canon, Tochter Grunfeld, the Magister we just hired, had eight children all of whom became Magisters when they grew up.

I suppose she could just be expecting everyone to be like Grunfeld? Which would be unrealistic I feel.

 

[K von Carstein]

"No outsiders" is much worse, since taking only daughters from already druidic lines leaves the Order with maybe what, a dozen potential apprentices per generation?
Two dozen?

Even if it's more, it's not nearly enough for the Jade order to stay relevant in the Colleges.
She would essentially kill the Jade Order and have a tiny mystery-cult that doesn't contribute much of any worth to the Empire, endangering their entire legal foundation.

Edit: THis might not be her conscious intent, but it is a possible consequence of her beliefs.

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Wouldn't a « no outsider » rule also lead to inbreeding? Because I imagine that kind of traditionalist wouldn't like to marry outside its order.

 

[Valmond]

In canon, Tochter Grunfeld, the Magister we just hired, had eight children all of whom became Magisters when they grew up.

I suppose she could just be expecting everyone to be like Grunfeld? Which would be unrealistic I feel.

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Well, they are the college/order of life magic.
So possibly not?
If anyone knows how to put out a steady stream of kids, it is them.
That said, i suspect she would probably be receiving lot of pushback from other women in her order who would not appreciate having to spend a better part of a decade having kids when they could be doing almost anything else.

 

[Asheram]

Oh damn this is a bigger deal than I thought. She doesn't think men have a place in the order yet the Patriarch of her Order is a man. I suppose that explains a good deal of the friction between Paranoth and some of the Old Faith. I don't think all of them follow the Cult of the Mother, that seems like a specific sub cult, but restricting Jades to only 1/2 of the population is not a good idea.

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I can't help but grit my teeth over that we've got a Runelord situation.
We've got a small semi-religious sect inside one of the colleges who hoard knowledge and is innately distrustful of any outsiders. And as pointed out, this sect keeps dwindling due to a lack of initiates.

 

[Codex]

Wouldn't a « no outsider » rule also lead to inbreeding? Because I imagine that kind of traditionalist wouldn't like to marry outside its order.

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No outsiders becoming Druids, she was perfectly fine marrying a man, who could never be a druid and she doesn't consider him one.

 

[LiamOfOrmonde]

Cython's conception of the gods seems less inclined to focus on individuals and more on territories. I suppose that comes from Cython's existence as a Dragon, where they view things in a territorial manner rather than from an individualistic perspective. Yes Mathlann and Manaan share the same ocean, but Manaan is worshipped by human society and Mathlann by Elven society. The viewpoint, perspective and manner of worshipping Mathlann and Manaan are not quite the same, and one could argue that it's possible that they are different by the mere fact that the people who worship them are different.

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There's another bit to it. Mathlann, Manann, and Stromfels are the three sea gods (there may be more but I don't remember it). But there for different parts of the sea. Not physical locations, but how it's perceived by people.

Mathlann is the Elven God of The Sea How It Is, as seen by the elves he's rules over all the good and bad parts of the sea put together to encompass it's entirety as they understand it. Both in fair winds and in storms. He's just as much the god of Asur sea traders as he is the god of Druchi raiders.

Manann is the Human God of How We Hope The Sea To Be, humans now that the sea is a better place but by sacrificing and supplications Manann they can make the dangerous place that is the sea somewhat safer.

Stromfels is the Human God of The Cruelty Of The Sea. All the parts of the sea that humans know and fear they associate with Stromfels. Storms, sharks, sea monsters, pirates, all that nasty bits humans fear from the ocean.

While all three are sea gods, heck while they're all gods of the same sea even, they're still distinct in their own domain. Sure, one could argue that if you smashed Stromfels and Manann together you would get a god that's like Mathlann but humans don't see the sea as all one thing. To them there's the sea when it's peaceful, and the sea when it's not. As opposed to the elves who see it as just one thing. That's why the Empire has two sea gods and the Elves have just one.

 

[IronFist]

I can't help but grit my teeth over that we've got a Runelord situation.
We've got a small semi-religious sect inside one of the colleges who hoard knowledge and is innately distrustful of any outsiders. And as pointed out, this sect keeps dwindling due to a lack of initiates.

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Like the remaining Hedgewise ?

 

[Asheram]

Like the remaining Hedgewise ?

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Ah, I keep forgetting about them. Good thing that Kurtis has a foot in with them and working them already.

 

[Codex]

There's another bit to it. Mathlann, Manann, and Stromfels are the three sea gods (there may be more but I don't remember it). But there for different parts of the sea. Not physical locations, but how it's perceived by people.

Mathlann is the Elven God of The Sea How It Is, as seen by the elves he's rules over all the good and bad parts of the sea put together to encompass it's entirety as they understand it. Both in fair winds and in storms. He's just as much the god of Asur sea traders as he is the god of Druchi raiders.

Manann is the Human God of How We Hope The Sea To Be, humans now that the sea is a better place but by sacrificing and supplications Manann they can make the dangerous place that is the sea somewhat safer.

Stromfels is the Human God of The Cruelty Of The Sea. All the parts of the sea that humans know and fear they associate with Stromfels. Storms, sharks, sea monsters, pirates, all that nasty bits humans fear from the ocean.

While all three are sea gods, heck while they're all gods of the same sea even, they're still distinct in their own domain. Sure, one could argue that if you smashed Stromfels and Manann together you would get a god that's like Mathlann but humans don't see the sea as all one thing. To them there's the sea when it's peaceful, and the sea when it's not. As opposed to the elves who see it as just one thing. That's why the Empire has two sea gods and the Elves have just one.

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That's not quite right. Manaan is in fact a largely indifferent god as seen by humans. Humans don't think he's cruel, but they definitely think he's tempestous, and they don't "love" Manaan so much as they "fear" him. As much as they perform supplications and sacrifices hoping for a safe journey, they know that Manaan is fickle, and nothing proves this more than his strictures:

• Obey your captain.
• It is forbidden to kill an albatross.
• Do not whistle aboard a ship or within a temple.
• Whistle gently when sailing on a ship, for it ensures a good headwind.
• Do not embark on a voyage on the thirteenth day.
• Nails and hair must not be cut at sea—they are an offering unworthy of Manann.
• Do not look back to port once you have departed.
• Do not throw stones at a ship or into the sea.
• Do not say the word "drowned" whilst at sea.
• Should you fall overboard, give Manann gold and he will spare you.
• Wine poured over the deck of a ship will bring good luck, wine poured overboard will bring ill fortune.
• The first fish caught each day must be thrown back as an offering to Manann.
• A cat onboard a ship brings good luck.
• A cat onboard a ship brings bad luck.
• A woman onboard brings bad luck.
• A naked woman aboard a ship calms the sea (hence why so many ships have figureheads in the form of naked women).
• A silver coin placed under the mast ensures good luck.
• A silver coin thrown into the sea brings death.
• A gold coin thrown into the sea pleases Manann.
• A goat hung from the mast of a ship ensures a safe voyage.
• A beastman hung from the mast of a ship ensures a safe voyage.
• Do not tolerate the worship of the Shark God (this is the exception to the above rules–this stricture is followed by all worshippers of Manann).

Aside from the final stricture, all priests of Manaan roll 1D10 to determine how many of these strictures they take, and if they invoke Manaan's wrath, they restructure the strictures they have to follow by rolling 1D10 again, discarding the strictures they used to follow. These are just some of the more common strictures followed by Manaanite Priests. Humans are well aware that Manaan's not nice, which is why they made up several nicer versions of him:

"Several small sects of Manann worship him in other guises which, unlike Manann, are usually benevolent deities. The sect of Manalt, Lord of the Bounty of the Sea, is popular with fishermen along the coasts of the Empire and up the Reik as far as Carroburg. The God of Tides, Manas, is commonly venerated by navigators who pray to him to help guide their journeys. One aspect of Manann local to the Wasteland is Olovald, Spirit of the Delta, whose cult claims that Manann is actually an aspect of Olovald—in response the Cult of Manann is rather heavy-handed in its dealings with the sect. Of all, Manhavok is perhaps the strangest, for he is worshipped in central Stirland, far from any large bodies of water." Page 33 Tome of Salvation

A note that Olovald actually predates the arrival of the Cult of Manaan to the Wasteland, and he was only forcibly transformed into a Saint of Manaan around the 1000s IC. Also yes, the book outright says that Manhavok is an aspect of Manaan and states that it's strange, but that might be a misunderstanding and Manhavok is different. He's certainly weird even by Manaan's standards, but hey, it would make the Manhavok flooding the Shrine of Stormfels thing in DL even more significant.

 

[LiamOfOrmonde]

• Obey your captain.
• It is forbidden to kill an albatross.
• Do not whistle aboard a ship or within a temple.
• Whistle gently when sailing on a ship, for it ensures a good headwind.
• Do not embark on a voyage on the thirteenth day.
• Nails and hair must not be cut at sea—they are an offering unworthy of Manann.
• Do not look back to port once you have departed.
• Do not throw stones at a ship or into the sea.
• Do not say the word "drowned" whilst at sea.
• Should you fall overboard, give Manann gold and he will spare you.
• Wine poured over the deck of a ship will bring good luck, wine poured overboard will bring ill fortune.
• The first fish caught each day must be thrown back as an offering to Manann.
• A cat onboard a ship brings good luck.
• A cat onboard a ship brings bad luck.
• A woman onboard brings bad luck.
• A naked woman aboard a ship calms the sea (hence why so many ships have figureheads in the form of naked women). • A silver coin placed under the mast ensures good luck.
• A silver coin thrown into the sea brings death.
• A gold coin thrown into the sea pleases Manann.
• A goat hung from the mast of a ship ensures a safe voyage.
• A beastman hung from the mast of a ship ensures a safe voyage.
• Do not tolerate the worship of the Shark God (this is the exception to the above rules–this stricture is followed by all worshippers of Manann).

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*squints eyes*
I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but that's Stromfel's scriptures but with Manann's name written in. I'd recognize them anywhere.

Also I'm not saying Manann is the 'good' god of the sea. He's the god of the 'better' part of the sea. They fear him and hope by worshipping him the don't get squashed and associate him with things about the sea they don't find egregious. All the things people don't like about the sea they associate with Stromfels.

Edit: So yes. I agree.