Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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[X] Order
[X] Comfort
[X] Security

Of all the priorities Preservation is the least likely to every become relevant within this quest. I fully believe that we would go full duar before we let K8P fall again.
 
While I don't disagree, a post end-times (or dinner other apocalypse if you prefer) library housing the survivors of K8P through everything just popping up in the middle of the next civilizations is a very fun mental image.

That honestly sounds like a really fun recursive fanfic, minus the bit where it means End Times still happened despite everything.
 
When you're envisioning a literal mountain of books, you really don't want to be reorganising it later down the line - it's a truly herculean task, likely to be put off due to sheer inertia if nothing else. The organisation and ability to access information is the most important thing about a library, and what separates it from a pile of books locked in a vault somewhere.

Library science is its own field of research IRL for a reason - it's incredibly complex, and every single librarian you'll ever meet has at minimum a Master's degree in it. In Warhammer, however, the field can't even be called in its infancy yet - in choosing order as our focus, we'd quite literally be pioneering and innovating the very field that makes modern libraries work, and also what will make our library utterly unique in the present time. The Verenans certainly aren't doing this, because they fundamentally don't care about people having access - in their creed, knowledge is to be preserved, not necessarily to be shared, as Boney has talked about so many times in the past.
Considering just how long it generally takes to get feedback when we ask KAK if someone has any outstanding grudges that we should worry about I suspect that their grudge library was not made with order as a priority.

We are going to want be breaking new ground.
 
Considering just how long it generally takes to get feedback when we ask KAK if someone has any outstanding grudges that we should worry about I suspect that their grudge library was not made with order as a priority.

We are going to want be breaking new ground.

If Belegar ever wants to execute the dunk of all dunks in a few decades, he could mildly suggest that the the Grudge Library start making copies of grudges to send them to the Archive of the Silvery Depths "so that we can get them properly sorted".
 
If the dwarf grudge library was better ordered I suspect that they could organize resolution of them more efficiently. It would be so much easier if the Dwarfs could just put up regional bounty boards.

As it is I think that their current library was never intended to be a library when first made.
 
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By the magic of whichever writer made that canon not having done their research. In practice it's probably more like a land tax in that income tied to farmland and herds would be the only one it'd be hard to conceal so it's what would be focused on, and licenses and guild dues would make up the lost taxes from urban professions that can trivially hide the majority of their income.
Ah. Didn't know that 10% number was from canon instead of being DL WoG.
Rationally, I know that Qrech is a murderer, a slaver and probably entirely unrepentant. And yet I can't help but be very attached to him.
Him thinking that the taste of Chaos Dwarf flesh is of academic value was right there in the chapter.

That said, I'm attached to him too.
I'm going to vote for order, because preserving works doesn't matter that much if they then get lost in a book heap, and I don't think we should have any works that need more than standard dwarven security in there anyway.
Order sounds like something that doesn't need to be included in the physical foundation though. No matter how relatively weird the layout (and it won't be too obtuse what with being built by Dwarves) it's more a question of how the books get shoves into the shelves over the next centuries, how the shelves are labeled and how all that info is stored in library cards than about how the mountain was excavated and the masonry placed. But things like near infinite expansion capacity (Capacity), ventilation (Comfort/Preservation), foundation for non-standard rooms (Comfort/Holy), or hidden rooms within hidden rooms (Security) are right now type questions to solve.
These are Dwaves being given a blank check from the ruler of Karak Eight Peaks to build something. It's gonna be damn good in every way, but Dwarves do do best with preservation, and I think in every other regard it'll be more than functional anyway if we pick that.
I was thinking exactly the opposite. Dwarves are good at and value preservation, so even the normal amount would seem near excessive to any IRL human in the business. But things like Holy might be almost completely neglected in the layout as far as non-Dwarven deities are concerned and Comfort isn't really a priority either, so the baseline might be just breathable air and an occasional stone slab to put a book on.
It's big for academia on the topic, but it has a severe disatvantage in importance because Empire and CDs don't really fight at all, being seperated by one of the largest mountain ranges in the world.

It is extremly unlikely that the book ever attains military, diplomatic or other, non-academic importance.
It might become more important if Mathilde becomes a trend setter instead of a fluke. I.e. if Wizard leaders and advisors to Dwarves, using Human style tactics during Dwarven military campaigns becomes a thing that occasionally happens.
Motivation: Obligation
Corruption: 2
I'd like to know your thoughts behind these two and also an explanation of what "Corruption: 2" implies on the scale as measured by the RPG.
Ranald's Coin
Once every 24 hours, the bearer can flip Ranald's Coin. For the next 24 hours, the bearer falls under one of four effects. To determine which effect they fall under, roll a d100 and consult the table below.
I really like the design of it being random. I almost prefer it to the current one. It would definitely be interesting if at the start of a turn Boney told us which bonus he rolled us to have (and only asks us to apply it to a specific action if it makes sense in context). Of course it would make no sense changing it now after we've already used it so much.

You may pass unnoticed and remarked, providing you do nothing to draw attention to yourself, such as touching, attacking, calling out to someone, casting a spell, or making a loud noise.
This one seems different though. It doesn't have the "outside of private property" clause.
Afterwards, the Seed of Regrowth can only be activated after being allowed to sprout in soil for 1d10 hours.
What made you decide to exclude the "eat incapacitated people or fresh corpses" ability? Too much text?
You're asking for details that don't exist yet. Picks have barely touched rock.
My question I guess is how much do we give up by not choosing any one given option? Like, am I right to think that not choosing Capacity, Security Preservation still means that those traits would be considerably higher than some of the most excellent IRL physical libraries while the same is not true when it comes to not choosing Comfort or Holy?

I mean Preservation is volcano an waaagh proof. That's insane. If not preservation is 25% as good it's still good enough for me. But on the flip side I imagine that the amount of priority Dwarves put into Comfort if not prompted is downright sad. And I have no clue where on the scale between OCD meticulous organization and relying on pure superhuman memory to find anything at all the Dwarves would fall on Order. All of this matters to my vote though.1
[X] Preservation

Because 'knowledge that will never be lost' was the primary goal from the beginning.



B O O K will be eternal.
Yeah, but we don't need more than that.
[X] Order

I dislike 'Preservation' because a book that cannot be found may as well have been destroyed. While a book damaged by the environment can be restored/replaced.

Security feels redundant. The thing is already a Dwarf vault in one of the most secure Holds on the planet.

Comfort and Holy are somewhat tempting. But I have lost enough hours and days trying to grind through obscure sorting systems to prioritise Order above all else.
The only reason that I'm not outright voting for Order yet is that I don't know what baseline Order entails the way I feel like I have a handle on baseline Preservation (already insane) or Security (not subtle but otherwise near impenetrable).
that said, we don't have magic runes. The dwarves do. They can make a library that lasts forever, or close enough.
My understanding is that those magic runes are baseline. I mean even Mathilde's private bathroom has magic runes.
[ ] Preservation
You could focus from the outset on the preservation of the gathered materials from both natural disaster and the march of time. The masons will use techniques meant for facilities built atop live volcanoes to create a library that could withstand being the epicentre of the beginning of a second Time of Woes, and a great deal of care paid to air shafts and ambient humidity will create separate sections of the library tailored for the different needs of paper, parchment, and papyrus, and a means of completely securing the entire facility such that it could last another few millennia of enemy inhabitation unbreached.
That still doesn't protect from outright infiltration and sabotage though. Or something insane like another Dawi-Zarr style fall to Chaos among the local native inhabitants.

And while such an event is unlikely, so is a volcanic eruption, let alone K8P being the epicenter of a second Time of Woes.
 
I was thinking exactly the opposite. Dwarves are good at and value preservation, so even the normal amount would seem near excessive to any IRL human in the business. But things like Holy might be almost completely neglected in the layout as far as non-Dwarven deities are concerned and Comfort isn't really a priority either, so the baseline might be just breathable air and an occasional stone slab to put a book on.
Mind you that this is Belegar repaying the debt he owes to Mathilde. Mind that I argued for Comfort, but Belegar ain't your average dwarf, and understands Mathilde more than most. He'd make sure the architects will account for her standards any choice we make.
 
Changing my vote:

[X] Comfort
[X] Order
[X] Holy

Mind you that this is Belegar repaying the debt he owes to Mathilde. Mind that I argued for Comfort, but Belegar ain't your average dwarf, and understands Mathilde more than most. He'd make sure the architects will account for her standards any choice we make.
I don't know if Belegar would do more than ensure that Mathilde in particular has all her luxury comforts when reading. A handful of VIP lounges are not comparable to in-house restaurants and gardens.
 
While you will, of course, seek to make a library that is reasonably capacious, comfortable, pious, well-ordered, enduring, and secure, your involvement here lets you decide what you will focus on to a truly unreasonable extent.

Key sentence. The Silvery Depths will be reasonably capacious, comfortable, pious, well-ordered, enduring, and secure without a vote to that effect.

We are voting on what it will unreasonably be. That stuff about how preservation could ensure, "the entire facility such that it could last another few millennia of enemy inhabitation unbreached". That same level of X-Treme but for whatever it is we pick.
 
Mind you that this is Belegar repaying the debt he owes to Mathilde. Mind that I argued for Comfort, but Belegar ain't your average dwarf, and understands Mathilde more than most. He'd make sure the architects will account for her standards any choice we make.
Belegar is not going to be micromanaging the project. He is a busy dwarf. He will have to delegate likely to a dwarf architect.
 
[X] Order
[X] Comfort

Order, to make it possibly the most usable library in the old world, and so enticing to academics in hopes of making the Library the place for general research and the storing of information that's intended to be easily accessible. Or comfort, to make it the most inviting and entice academics to a lesser degree, but also the general citizenry of the Undumgi in hopes of increasing literacy in the long term.
 
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Key sentence. The Silvery Depths will be reasonably capacious, comfortable, pious, well-ordered, enduring, and secure without a vote to that effect.

We are voting on what it will unreasonably be. That stuff about how preservation could ensure, "the entire facility such that it could last another few millennia of enemy inhabitation unbreached". That same level of X-Treme but for whatever it is we pick.
Trying to think what unreasonably ordered to that standard would look like? Something extreme Google recreation, runes that read your mind and send you to the right section maybe the place reorganizes itself for the maximum convenient of every patron?
 
My question I guess is how much do we give up by not choosing any one given option? Like, am I right to think that not choosing Capacity, Security Preservation still means that those traits would be considerably higher than some of the most excellent IRL physical libraries while the same is not true when it comes to not choosing Comfort or Holy?

I mean Preservation is volcano an waaagh proof. That's insane. If not preservation is 25% as good it's still good enough for me. But on the flip side I imagine that the amount of priority Dwarves put into Comfort if not prompted is downright sad. And I have no clue where on the scale between OCD meticulous organization and relying on pure superhuman memory to find anything at all the Dwarves would fall on Order. All of this matters to my vote though.1

That's all things both Mathilde and I have no way of knowing in advance. There's going to be a lot of future decisions and random factors and research I've not yet done that determine exactly how the final library would look and operate, and gaming out every branch of that possibility tree would take insight Mathilde doesn't have and months of work on my part. So you're going to have to make a decision without perfect foresight, like everyone else who is subject to the arrow of time.
 
I don't know if Belegar would do more than ensure that Mathilde in particular has all her luxury comforts when reading. A handful of VIP lounges are not comparable to in-house restaurants and gardens.
Belegar is not going to be micromanaging the project. He is a busy dwarf. He will have to delegate likely to a dwarf architect.
Boney has explicitly confirmed that every facet will receive a lesser bonus if not selected as the primary facet:
You'll be getting the 'lesser bonus' for everything on account of Belegar going all in on this. You're picking which one gets the greater bonus, and there is no medium bonus.
Boney has also confirmed that facets can be improved at a later date, though not to as dramatic of effect:
There are ways that any of the facets can be improved after the fact, but having it be the core consideration right from minute one will always have a more dramatic result.

Actually, @Boney can we get these points added to the update itself? I'm seeing repeated confusion over these factoring into people's analysis/choices.
 
That's all things both Mathilde and I have no way of knowing in advance. There's going to be a lot of future decisions and random factors and research I've not yet done that determine exactly how the final library would look and operate, and gaming out every branch of that possibility tree would take insight Mathilde doesn't have and months of work on my part. So you're going to have to make a decision without perfect foresight, like everyone else who is subject to the arrow of time.
Damn arrows. Ruining it for the rest of us.
 
Actually, @Boney can we get these points added to the update itself? I'm seeing repeated confusion over these factoring into people's analysis/choices.

I did: "While you will, of course, seek to make a library that is reasonably capacious, comfortable, pious, well-ordered, enduring, and secure, your involvement here lets you decide what you will focus on to a truly unreasonable extent." Sometimes an idea needs to be rearranged a little before it can be slotted neatly into someone's mind, and no matter how you initially phrase something it's going to take some level of bespoke clarification after the fact from both the QM and the thread to combat individual misunderstandings that crop up. And trying to frontload all these possible clarifications can hurt more than it helps, because making the initial explanation longer makes it easier for people to bounce off or skim over or otherwise misunderstand.
 
That's all things both Mathilde and I have no way of knowing in advance. There's going to be a lot of future decisions and random factors and research I've not yet done that determine exactly how the final library would look and operate, and gaming out every branch of that possibility tree would take insight Mathilde doesn't have and months of work on my part. So you're going to have to make a decision without perfect foresight, like everyone else who is subject to the arrow of time.
I can see why you want the decision done first. I went online to study library science overview and there are many different types of library. Only having to study one type will likely save much time.

Edit: Incidentally looking at the history of libraries in our world unless there is a direct counter example I think that this might be the first public library* as we think of them in Warhammer fantasy.

*As in paid for by taxes and available to all free of charge.
 
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That's all things both Mathilde and I have no way of knowing in advance. There's going to be a lot of future decisions and random factors and research I've not yet done that determine exactly how the final library would look and operate, and gaming out every branch of that possibility tree would take insight Mathilde doesn't have and months of work on my part. So you're going to have to make a decision without perfect foresight, like everyone else who is subject to the arrow of time.
Ah. I thought that since the descriptions of each option are also not actually things Mathilde could know in advance, the flip side of not choosing an option might also not be bound to IC available knowledge. I should have known that those descriptions should be considered as a freebie and not the standard.
 
Trying to think what unreasonably ordered to that standard would look like? Something extreme Google recreation, runes that read your mind and send you to the right section maybe the place reorganizes itself for the maximum convenient of every patron?

Well you have to remember what standard we're starting from.

Imagine you walk into Silvery Depths, give the librarian a list of four books you're looking for that were published over a spread of four hundred years in two different continents in four different languages. Instead of waving you vaguely in the direction of various sections of the stacks, the Librarian disappears for half an hour and then comes back and informs you that they have three of the four books. Then a couple hours later, the Librarian returns with all three books. Believe me, that would be X-Treme.
 
When reading about the history of libraries I found that public libraries generally tended to be composted of 70%-90% fiction. We are likely going to have a vote later on if we should focus on our library being a bastion of academic learning or if we should maximum our library's local popularity.
 
Well you have to remember what standard we're starting from.

Imagine you walk into Silvery Depths, give the librarian a list of four books you're looking for that were published over a spread of four hundred years in two different continents in four different languages. Instead of waving you vaguely in the direction of various sections of the stacks, the Librarian disappears for half an hour and then comes back and informs you that they have three of the four books. Then a couple hours later, the Librarian returns with all three books. Believe me, that would be X-Treme.
I would expect that to be something of a baseline actually. Extreme should be being able to find a book using incomplete information such as only knowing the name of the author, or the date of publication, or maybe even only the topic.
 
Edit: Incidentally looking at the history of libraries in our world unless there is a direct counter example I think that this might be the first public library* as we think of them in Warhammer fantasy.

Based on what I've discovered from my own digging, this seems plausible but not certain. The first public library IRL was built in Venice around a decade before the Gutenberg Press began its spread, so by that timetable LK8P would be ahead of the curve by around 18 years. On the other hand, as I understand it the development of the printing press in Warhammer Fantasy was held back due to factors not present in our own history, so it's entirely possible that some small scale public libraries already exist in Tilea. LK8P would certainly be the largest example, though, and would likely be the catalyst to spread the concept to the Empire.
 
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