Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Out of curiosity Boney, any take on what they showed off for Cathay?
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Most of it was what I expected and matched what little lore Cathay has. The only thing up in the air was whether they'd go literal dragon for Dragon Emperor or whether they'd have it as just a title, as some of Cathay's lore suggested mortal Emperors, including a period when they were supplanted by a 'Monkey King' backed by Clan Eshin.
(fun fact: Cathay has been in Warhammer for longer than the Empire has)
Fayhem
Definitely not an escaped SCP
- Location
- At large
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Oh sorry, I wasn't clear. In this scenario it isn't another human in Laurelorn, or a human with any relationship to anything going on in Laurelorn. It's just a human that they met somewhere else out in the world. You know, a human! Like you! Interesting, right? Seems like you two must have a lot in common, both being humans and all.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
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- She/Her
The Cathay trailer has really got me amped up on Dragomas, so I'm making a post on him. Par for the course, it's probably gonna be long.
Personally I imagine Dragomas to be either green or brown colored in terms of scale color, but there's nothing that mentions his color scheme so that's just a guess. Also, for some reason the Iron Dragon is actually Aqshy aligned (his human form lights a fire in his hand to show off), and Storm Dragon is obviously Azyr. I'm now wondering how a Ghur Celestial would manifest its element since Ghur is so ephemeral. Maybe Dragomas' intense speed and physical prowess is an example of that? Enhancing the "bestial" aspects of his dragon form to be more physical powerful and fast.
Secondly, I want to talk a little about something else. Namely, why is Dragomas the first and only Supreme Patriarch to have four consecutive terms?
Think about it. Is Dragomas the strongest wizard in the history of the Colleges? I don't think so. Putting aside previous members of the colleges, Elspeth and Paranoth are noted to have a good chance of beating him/are probably stronger than him. Is he the most ambitious wizard in the colleges? Probably not, I'm pretty sure Alric has him beat on that front. Is he the most politically savvy wizard? No, I think Feldmann has him beat on that front. So why?
It's a combination/confluence of factors. Dragomas is intensely powerful and intimidating in combat, with the absurd ability to casually turn himself into a more powerful dragon than anyone's ever seen before from a Wizard without miscasting despite him repeatedly doing it. Beyond that, he's not a one trick pony, he's got a bunch of other spells and combat abilities in his arsenal for dealing with other situations as he demonstrated in the Duels. But combat prowess isn't the only reason.
From what little we know of Paranoth, he might be able to beat Dragomas. But he doesn't want to. He was patriarch for one term then lost to Alric, who I'm pretty sure is weaker. The reason why strikes me as him wanting to test his skills in the duels, he wins, then he realises how miserable the Supreme Patriarch position is so he essentially gives it up to Alric so he can go wandering again.
Elspeth could beat Dragomas probably, but she doesn't have the inclination to do so. Algard could maybe do it, but he likes Dragomas. The others who do have the ambition to do it are too weak to beat Dragomas.
So it's not just strength, although he has that. It's not just ambition, which he certainly has. It's not just political acumen/likability, though he does have that. It's not just his reputation, which he's bolstered with excellent deeds and has the lifelong loyalty of the Battle Wizards. It's all that combined with the unique circumstances of the current collegiate situation and the fact that he's in the prime of his life that makes him perhaps the most notable Supreme Patriarch since Volans.
@Boney I understand if you don't want to answer this question, but when you made Dragomas, did you generate him purely narratively or did you roll some dice? It honestly feels like Dragomas was the result of a very high roll. Or maybe you wanted a Gelt like figure without having to use Gelt the canon character (although my understanding is that Dragomas is more likable than Gelt).
First, what does his dragon form look like? Boney wasn't super detailed with his description, that's just his style letting us fill in the gaps, but the above are current examples of Celestial Dragons that we can take inspiration from to visualise this:Alright, to talk about something else, I found pictures of the Iron and Storm Dragons so people can peruse them to see the variety in Celestial Dragon appearance:
See, quite a bit of variance.
My current image of Dragomas brings him close in line to the shape of the Iron Dragon over the Storm Dragon, as Storm is more serpentine with a beaked mouth as opposed to a dragoney snout, which I like to think Dragomas has. I do however think that Dragomas has hair like the Storm Dragon, which the Iron Dragon does not have, and that Dragomas also has horns albeit less prevalent than the Iron Dragon.
Personally I imagine Dragomas to be either green or brown colored in terms of scale color, but there's nothing that mentions his color scheme so that's just a guess. Also, for some reason the Iron Dragon is actually Aqshy aligned (his human form lights a fire in his hand to show off), and Storm Dragon is obviously Azyr. I'm now wondering how a Ghur Celestial would manifest its element since Ghur is so ephemeral. Maybe Dragomas' intense speed and physical prowess is an example of that? Enhancing the "bestial" aspects of his dragon form to be more physical powerful and fast.
Secondly, I want to talk a little about something else. Namely, why is Dragomas the first and only Supreme Patriarch to have four consecutive terms?
Think about it. Is Dragomas the strongest wizard in the history of the Colleges? I don't think so. Putting aside previous members of the colleges, Elspeth and Paranoth are noted to have a good chance of beating him/are probably stronger than him. Is he the most ambitious wizard in the colleges? Probably not, I'm pretty sure Alric has him beat on that front. Is he the most politically savvy wizard? No, I think Feldmann has him beat on that front. So why?
It's a combination/confluence of factors. Dragomas is intensely powerful and intimidating in combat, with the absurd ability to casually turn himself into a more powerful dragon than anyone's ever seen before from a Wizard without miscasting despite him repeatedly doing it. Beyond that, he's not a one trick pony, he's got a bunch of other spells and combat abilities in his arsenal for dealing with other situations as he demonstrated in the Duels. But combat prowess isn't the only reason.
From what little we know of Paranoth, he might be able to beat Dragomas. But he doesn't want to. He was patriarch for one term then lost to Alric, who I'm pretty sure is weaker. The reason why strikes me as him wanting to test his skills in the duels, he wins, then he realises how miserable the Supreme Patriarch position is so he essentially gives it up to Alric so he can go wandering again.
Elspeth could beat Dragomas probably, but she doesn't have the inclination to do so. Algard could maybe do it, but he likes Dragomas. The others who do have the ambition to do it are too weak to beat Dragomas.
So it's not just strength, although he has that. It's not just ambition, which he certainly has. It's not just political acumen/likability, though he does have that. It's not just his reputation, which he's bolstered with excellent deeds and has the lifelong loyalty of the Battle Wizards. It's all that combined with the unique circumstances of the current collegiate situation and the fact that he's in the prime of his life that makes him perhaps the most notable Supreme Patriarch since Volans.
@Boney I understand if you don't want to answer this question, but when you made Dragomas, did you generate him purely narratively or did you roll some dice? It honestly feels like Dragomas was the result of a very high roll. Or maybe you wanted a Gelt like figure without having to use Gelt the canon character (although my understanding is that Dragomas is more likable than Gelt).
IIRC I rolled a d8 for which College they'd be from, and then Dragomas was a result of me imagining what an Amber Patriarch would be like and what would be a suitable resume for them.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
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- She/Her
Just to expand on this, my exposure to Balthazar Gelt is primarily through Total War, specifically Total War memes. But this is an actual speech he gives in the game:
"Welcome to Estalia gentlemen. I will not lie, the chances of your survival are small. Some may even turn against your friends as living corpses, but you have my word that I will use my arcane gifts to ensure your bodies are given unto Morr's Garden. This is the greatest reward, more than even gold, for the fate of your soul is an eternal concern. Now come, follow me. Strike down the undead that rise against us, allow me to find this eldritch amulet. I ask not for my own selfish studies, but for the good of the Empire!"
This speech is so absurd that it got memed over a dozen times. Gelt might be an asshole, but his speeches are priceless. I don't think Dragomas is quite as good at "oratory".
Wait. Hold on. Is Dragomas a pure BoneyM creation?
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yeah he is. A completely original character.
- Location
- USA
The heck of it is that Gelt keeps getting away with this stuff no matter how ridiculous it sounds. Can you just imagine the reactions if Mathilde--who, as a Grey Wizard, is supposed to be good at speaking--gave this speech, with the references changed to what was relevant at hand, in an attempt to get the Expedition to fight all the way into Karag Dum and wrest its mysteries free?
Codex
Fantasy Addict
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- She/Her
"Welcome to Karag Dum gentlemen!" Mathilde Weber spread her arms at the edge of the crater surrounding Karag Dum, facing the expedition.
"I will not lie, the chances of your survival are small. Some may even turn against your friends as horrific Chaos Spawn, but you have my word that I will use my arcane gifts to ensure your bodies are given unto Morr's Garden. This is the greatest reward, more than even books, for the fate of your soul is an eternal concern. Now come, follow me. Strike down the beastmen that rise against us, allow me to find the secrets of this lost hold. I ask not for my own selfish studies, but for the good of the Empire!"
Yeah I don't see it working out.
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Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
Hey, at least she didn't try to convince anyone that she would help them get to Sigmar's side.
Honestly, it's not close to topping the list of absurd things in WHF. Especially given that random people in the Empire don't actually know jack about magic.
I'm just picturing someone hearing that speech and turning to the next person in the line. "...Wait, can he do that? Is that actually how wizards work?"
"I don't know, but it sounds about right."
"...Well, beats getting eaten by beastmen and spending eternity as a pile of crap."
"...Is that how beastmen work?"
"I don't know, but it sounds about right."
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- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
I need an explanation for that. What was the "classic" Human faction before the Empire? And how far back are we talking?
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Of course not. Everyone would know that's a lie, but promising she would get them to Morr is at least plausible. Especially since, you know, she does in fact know a lot of Morrite secrets, has demonstrated it before, and has plausible deniability for how she learned them.
But really, she just doesn't have a long-standing distaste for that particular god.
- Location
- Leeds
Dragons are so eco friendly, once their mating ritual was wrecking the Fmir, now that those are nearly extinct they swapped to sustainable dark elves.
TimEd
Meteor maker
[X] Thorek Ironbrow, to witness the arrival of the first Dwarf in Tor Lithanel for over four thousand years.
[X] Qrech, who is putting the finishing touches on his tome on the Chaos Dwarves.
[X] The Karak Azul Architects, to get involved in the design of your Library in detail.
[X] Qrech, who is putting the finishing touches on his tome on the Chaos Dwarves.
[X] The Karak Azul Architects, to get involved in the design of your Library in detail.
2nd Edition, 1984. The 'Old Worlders' were just generically European and the composite nations of it weren't named or described, it was just said to be more advanced in the south (proto-Tilea?) and less in the north (proto-Kislev?), and the only mechanical distinction the Old Worlders had over other human realms (Norsca, Cathay, Nippon, Araby, Steppe Nomads) was getting a bonus to Knights. The actual nations of the Old World were fleshed out in later supplements to 2nd Edition and by 3rd had developed into more or less what we would recognize today.
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Chlof
Her Ladyship
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Thorek Ironbrow, to witness the arrival of the first Dwarf in Tor Lithanel for over four thousand years.
[X] Qrech, who is putting the finishing touches on his tome on the Chaos Dwarves.
[X] The Karak Azul Architects, to get involved in the design of your Library in detail.
[X] Egrimm, to try to sound out more information about the Alric situation.
[X] Qrech, who is putting the finishing touches on his tome on the Chaos Dwarves.
[X] The Karak Azul Architects, to get involved in the design of your Library in detail.
[X] Egrimm, to try to sound out more information about the Alric situation.
- Location
- Leeds
I kinda assumed that Sigmar and the eponymous Warhammer were baked into the setting from the very start.
I don't think he was made a God until 4th Edition, 3rd just seems to treat him as a historical figure.
There being dragons that old around isn't new. As one of them says in the Old World Bestiary '"When the Old Ones first crafted their Gates from the substance of stars, I was there to assist their labour. Down the long ages I have come, watching the rise and fall of you lesser races and your civilizations. I've laid waste to knights and cities, burned fields and routed armies in my years. I could tell you much of the world that you have forgotten and more that you never knew, but I think not. You and yours are suited for nothing more than to provide me with amusement and the occasional graceful bauble for my lair. I see little else
worthwhile about you."
- Location
- Leeds
But also a historical figure who didn't found the empire, just established western Old world relations with the dwarves?
Article: Very little world background is given at all and the race descriptions are kept to a minimum, and most of the background given is in describing the origins of magic items.
Article: This edition also further developed "The Known World", which was geographically and socially based upon Earth.[17]
hmmmm. I'm not hunting down the old editions, but did they just name the game after a cool weapon and retroactively wrote in the Ghal Maraz lore?
E: Also White Dwarf the magazine came before White Dwarf the in universe character? I feel I've been giving the old editions more credit than they deserved.
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"Most successful of all the human tribes were those of the northern forest. The leader of one of those tribes, the Unberogen, was the legendary Sigmar, called by the Dwarfs Hammer of Evil (Oraanlun). Sigmar won great fame fighting alongside the Dwarfs, and following the Goblin war he was to turn his energies towards the creation of a sizeable realm. The numberless small tribes of the northern forests were eager to accept Sigmar as their overlord, and for the first time a large portion of humanity was brought under a common rule."
It's recognizable, but it's still got a way to go.
Seems like it. 1st Edition didn't even have any worldbuilding, it was just a ruleset for large-scale combat seemingly intended to supplement D&D and the like, including rules for things like Balrogs, Menfish, and Wereboars.
White Dwarf predates Warhammer by six years.
- Location
- Australia
It was pretty much just bespoke ruleset so you could play something with their existing mini ranges rather than only being able to use them with other people's games, and included provisions for a DM and RPG elements. It's in some ways a fascinating book to see where the IP came from and where it is headed.
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