Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
also, its just not a good idea to write those sorts of papers until you retire or doing a different job: don't what to offend anyone, even accidentally

there is a reason that your average Diplomat 'tell all' book is only after the author is sure they are not getting back into the game.
 
I am still very, very uncomfortable in having this Tzeentchian bastard in our council. What? There's a possibility that he isn't? No way. The bastard was way too smug to not be a Tzeentchian bastard.

Can we kill him BoneyM? Pretty please?
Over my (un)dead body!😉

The only thing that would make it MORE greek, was if Boney had actually shown us the wrestling spar between Johann and Kadoh.
And the « wrestling » after the spar, if you know what I mean…
 
Man, I just love what Egrimm does to the story and the thread.

That forest dwelling story seems like it is ripe for a splinter faction. All they really need is to be known and tolerated by a majority of the other Faniour, and to have an edge to use when the inevitable tragedy strikes.

We did good with finding out about the basic politics of this place. We got lots of possible actionable information along with the possible sources if conflict.
 
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You know, I kind of enjoy what we're doing with Egrimm. Sure, he's somewhat of a pity project, but considering what could have been then we're definitely showing him that good work will be rewarded (usually with more work, but prestigious work.)
 
I'm not super familiar with the culture/society of Ancient Greece and Rome, would someone kindly explain the similarities in detail?

1. The privileges granted to the Cityborn (descendants of families present at the founding of Tor Lithanel) and the extra privileges granted to the Major Houses in particular (descendants of families granted large properties by the founding charter), is reminiscent of the privileges to the Roman "patrician" class.

To be Cityborn, you piece together from answers to artfully offhand questions as you furnish your new dwelling, means exactly that: to have inherited the ancient right to reside within Tor Lithanel. But that right has been inherited by many over the years, and constricted horizontally by the city's walls and vertically by the needs of the plants lining every street for sunlight, living space has become more and more scarce. Those who do not have the fortune to have been born to a Major House - which is much more literal than you expected, as it denotes those families who were granted a large property by the founding charter of Tor Lithanel - find living space at a premium. Few can afford more than space to sleep and store a few items, so most live their waking lives in the streets. Which is, perhaps, not so bad as it first sounds, because such lovely streets they are.

The patricians (from Latin: patricius) were originally a group of ruling class families in ancient Rome. The distinction was highly significant in the Roman Kingdom, and the early Republic, but its relevance waned after the Conflict of the Orders (494 BC to 287 BC). By the time of the late Republic and Empire, membership in the patriciate was of only nominal significance.

The social structure of Ancient Rome revolved around the distinction between the patricians and the plebeians. The status of patricians gave them more political power than the plebeians. The relationship between the patricians and the plebeians eventually caused the Conflict of the Orders. This time period resulted in changing the social structure of Ancient Rome.


2. "Odeons" and "Agora" were ancient / classical Greek and Roman public buildings.

Theaters and odeons are plentiful with only the largest charging admission, and in the smaller ones anyone who cares to take the stage is free to do so, so there is a steady stream of entertainment by people who would be considered masters by any shorter-lived race. There are regular festivals in honour to various Gods and the business of governance is all conducted in the Agora in full view of the public.

Odeon or Odeum (Ancient Greek: ᾨδεῖον, Ōideion, lit. "singing place") is the name for several ancient Greek and Roman buildings built for musical activities, such as singing, musical shows and poetry competitions. Odeons were smaller than Greek and Roman theatres.

en.wikipedia.org

Agora - Wikipedia

The agora (/ˈæɡərə/; Ancient Greek: ἀγορά agorá) was a central public space in ancient Greek city-states. It is the best representation of a city-state's response to accommodate the social and political order of the polis.[1] The literal meaning of the word "agora" is "gathering place" or "assembly". The agora was the center of the athletic, artistic, business, social, spiritual and political life in the city.[2] The Ancient Agora of Athens is the best-known example.


3. Public bathhouses were a Roman civic institution.

There are public bathhouses and the silk clothing favoured by the populace is hard-wearing enough to only need replacing every few decades

en.wikipedia.org

Thermae - Wikipedia

In ancient Rome, thermae (from Greek θερμός thermos, "hot") and balneae (from Greek βαλανεῖον balaneion) were facilities for bathing. Thermae usually refers to the large imperial bath complexes, while balneae were smaller-scale facilities, public or private, that existed in great numbers throughout Rome.[1]

Most Roman cities had at least one – if not many – such buildings, which were centres not only for bathing, but socializing and reading as well. Bath-houses were also provided for wealthy private villas, town houses, and forts. They were supplied with water from an adjacent river or stream, or within cities by aqueduct. The water would be heated by fire then channelled into the caldarium (hot bathing room). The design of baths is discussed by Vitruvius in De architectura (V.10).


4. State-subsidised food and entertainment were a Roman civic institution.

In your experience so far, it seems like there is no place on any street in Tor Lithanel where you would be unable to draw line of sight to the Elven equivalent of a tavern, where a single wooden 'coin' roughly equivalent in value to thruppence can buy a lovely meal and a earthenware mug of very agreeable wine, with the price kept low and the quality high by the ubiquity of fruits and nuts free for the taking. Theaters and odeons are plentiful with only the largest charging admission, and in the smaller ones anyone who cares to take the stage is free to do so, so there is a steady stream of entertainment by people who would be considered masters by any shorter-lived race. There are regular festivals in honour to various Gods and the business of governance is all conducted in the Agora in full view of the public. There are public bathhouses and the silk clothing favoured by the populace is hard-wearing enough to only need replacing every few decades, and communal bunkhouses are provided by many of the Major Houses to those who can't or won't rent accommodations of their own. The cost of living in Tor Lithanel can be practically zero, if one has the good fortune to be born Toriour. This second impression Tor Lithanel gives you is a rather favourable one, where the least fortunate is still better off than so many citizens of the Empire.

"Bread and circuses" (or bread and games; from Latin: panem et circenses) is a metonymic phrase referring to superficial appeasement. It is attributed to Juvenal, a Roman poet active in the late first and early second century CE — and is used commonly in cultural, particularly political, contexts.

Juvenal here makes reference to the Roman practice of providing free wheat to Roman citizens as well as costly circus games and other forms of entertainment as a means of gaining political power. The Annona (grain dole) was begun under the instigation of the popularis politician Gaius Sempronius Gracchus in 123 BCE; it remained an object of political contention until it was taken under the control of the autocratic Roman emperors.


5. The Major Houses' grip on commercial, political and religious power in Tor Lithanel is reminiscent of the patrician class's grip on commercial political and religious power in classical Rome.

But though the many Elves you talk to speak freely of the floor on quality of life, their words also hint at an equally impenetrable ceiling. Those with ambition can try to better themselves through commerce, but competition is fierce, customers are few, and the rent for even a tiny studio is ruinous. Most that try typically enjoy a modest success off the back of novelty, but when that dries up so too do their funds, and most end up back in the bunkhouses. And off the back of the money from rents and influence from providing beds to those who otherwise would not have them, the Major Houses reinforce an already unassailable position in society. When Maruviel, Handmaiden to and niece of the Everqueen Yvraine, made promises to the families who had enough money and influence to make the colonization of Laurelorn possible, she can't have imagined that millennia later the society that had sprouted from that colony would be strangled by those same promises.

So what is an Elf to do, if they yearn for more from a society where so much is monopolized by twenty-one families? Some turn to the Temples to find meaning in the Gods, but those, too, are dominated by the Major Houses. Some seek political power, but the High Council is restricted to the Major Houses, the Senate is strictly advisory, and the only avenue left is to be Champion, which is decided by a series of tests of skill every four years and its exact format is decided by the Temple of Asuryan, which is to say, it is decided by House Malforric. Some immerse themselves in the pursuit of various arts, and verses and tunes and songs of bittersweet yearning fill the air throughout the city.

Patricians historically had more privileges and rights than plebeians. This status difference was marked at the beginning of the Republic: patricians were better represented in the Roman assemblies, only patricians could hold high political offices, such as dictator, consul, and censor, and all priesthoods (such as pontifex maximus) were closed to non-patricians. There was a belief that patricians communicated better with the Roman gods, so they alone could perform the sacred rites and take the auspices. Additionally, not only were the patricians of higher status in political offices but they also had the best land in Ancient Rome.[10] Having the best land would allow the patrician class to have more opportunities, such as being able to produce better agriculture. This view had political consequences, since in the beginning of the year or before a military campaign, Roman magistrates used to consult the gods. Livy reports that the first admission of plebeians into a priestly college happened in 300 BC with the passage of the Lex Ogulnia, when the college of Augurs raised their number from four to nine. After that, plebeians were accepted into the other religious colleges. By the end of the Republic, only priesthoods with limited political importance, such as the Salii, the Flamines, and the Rex Sacrorum, were filled exclusively by patricians.

While it was not illegal for a plebeian to run for political office, a plebeian would have not have had the backing needed to win a seat.[11] Since society was organized in this way, the patrician class was essentially in complete control of Ancient Rome's government.[11] In Cassius' accounts of Ancient Rome, he details how important and advantaged the patrician class was over the plebeian class.[12] He indicates the status difference between patricians and plebeians by detailing about the specific shoes the patricians wore. Cassius states, "For the shoes worn by the patricians in the city were ornamented with laced straps and the design of the letter, to signify that they were descended from the original hundred men that had been senators."[12] It is clear through Cassius' account that these details mattered and represent the differentiation between classes. For more on Ancient Rome's social class distinction visit Social Class in Ancient Rome.
 
We probably could write a paper at this point, but given this is just what Mathilde has gathered from a six month surface skim, and that she's very likely going to get a deeper overview as she examines the various Wards and Houses in more detail, I think that it's best to hold off on writing the paper until we gather more information, so we can give the best insight we can without having to spend more writing actions than necessary.
Mathilde is going to be of those people who wrote defining books in a whole bunch of different fields. There's linguistics with the Skaven, the Waagh paper, the coin book if we ever get to it... probably more I can't think of right now.
 
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I'm not super familiar with the culture/society of Ancient Greece and Rome, would someone kindly explain the similarities in detail?
A lot of parallels were seen here, one of the most famous periods of Rome's history had the Triumvirate made up of Pompey, Ceaser, and Cassus which kicked off the Roman Empire (different from the Roman Republic) this is reflected in the Triumvirate of the Queen, the Champion, and one of the Vicarii. While this is a cool similarity, Rome was actually ruled by two consuls (elected heads of governement), not the Triumvirate which only really occurred twice once with Ceaser and once with Augustus, and was more of a political bloc.

Other similarities include the mentions of public bathhouses, which also existed in Rome and acted as a social gathering place where people could mingle and talk. The cost of living being rather low but rent being very high, the saturation of pubs and theaters (although I am not sure if smaller Roman theaters charged). Plus a class divide between the noble families and commoners as well as the city born and the forest elves is reflected in Rome as the split between the Patricians (nobles) and the Plebians (commoners). As well as old powerful families dominating politics, however in Rome they had a concept that it wasn't enough just to be noble to be better than everyone else but you also had to prove you were better (I forgot the Latin name for this). So in Rome, it was expected for someone to eventually become consul if you came from a great family, this is theorized to be one of the reasons why Ceasar was so driven as his father never became consul and he had to prove his worthiness of being noble.

Never thought that one course on Roman history I took in college would come in handy.
 
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We could probably write a book on dwarven culture and diplomacy.

I can imagine the Emperor going up to his council and saying "I need to consult experts on elves, dwarves, orcs and skaven" and Dragomas replying "I know just the woman."

/undwarf

With Ulthuan essentially being Atlantis its only even more thematic for the colonies to be the Greeks, frankly.

/redwarf

Unpopular opinion: Atlantis should be Egyptian, not Greek.
 
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Mathilde is going to be of those people who wrote defining books in a whole bunch of different fields. There's linguistics with the Skaven, the Waagh paper, the coin book if we ever get to it... probably I can't think of right now.
"Making friends in unlikely places: A guidebook to how to substitute intrigue for diplomacy, by Mathilde Weber."
 
As A Irish person, I'm a little sad that they aren't more Celtic in culture, constering the naming sense and that their gods are largely renamed and skinned members of the different Celtic pantheons (Irish, Gaulish and Brythonic). (they didn't even bother renaming Manannán mac Lir, just used his less common names.)

but its not Boneys fault that the 4e books are so, so blatantly greek inspired.
Eh we got Albion, the guys who impressed the Old Ones enough to get special treatment which even the elves didn't get. Plus saving the world when Caledor I fucked up his math on the Vortex. The elves are pretty clearly Anglo.
 
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Turn 35 Results - 2487 - Part 1
A rich vein of worldbuilding.

"Good trip?"

"Long, loud, and cold," Maximillian says.
We really need to refit that 'copter for comfort. Particularly if we want to grab VIPs.

Especially considering..." He looks sideways at Johann and Maximillian. "Well. Considering."
…not certain I follow.

"That's going to be a lot of libraries," he says, a smile spreading across his face.
Blacksmith Librarian is an unusual multi-class, but he certainly makes it work.

I refuse to believe that in six thousand years, the collective minds of a continent have failed to produce any usable data. Nothing mass-produced on that scale is that inscrutable.
A hopeful statement. Time will tell if it is true.

I'll find who has it and drag them to the table, one way or another.
'One' way is diplomacy. Should we speculate on what other methods Mathilde, Ulgu Wizard Lord, is considering?

Cityborn and Forestborn
/squee

Lots of very interesting stuff there. And a lot unsaid. An unsuccessful Cityborn is just board and quietly desperate, while an unsuccessful Forestborn is dead. The city is overcrowded and they are apparently incapable of either expanding it or making another one. But they likely have a growing population, in contrast to Ulthuan. Or at least their pop is capped by a lack of resources rather than by excessive attrition.

Should be easy enough to tap their Rumour Mill. Pay an Elf to write down (and summarise?) what is said at the forum and another to just wonder between taverns.

We really need to build a decent road connection. We could certainly get the Dwarfs to make one, if we can get the Elves to authorise it.

Glorious.
I hadn't considered that Johann, he of the golden muscles, would be show-piece for the elves but it is a pleasant surprise. Hopefully they aren't too disappointed with the less sculpted specimens to come.
 
2. "Odeons" and "Agora" were ancient / classical Greek and Roman public buildings.
While this is true, I feel it's a bit like calling "soldier" an ancient Greek profession. :V "Odeon" stuck around much longer, giving us the Paris Odeon theater among others. Cheap cinema theatres were called nickel-odeons in the early 20th century, hence the name of the TV channel Nickelodeon.
(1 nickel then being about 1 dollar in today's money)
 
Didn't Plato pretend the tail of Atlantis came from Egyptian priests? I'm not sure.

Edit: Have the characters of his stories say that?

Plato claims that he's translating a 9000 year old text a friend of his acquired on a trip to Egypt no one can prove said friend actually took. He changed all the names to Greek names to make the story more familiar and relatable to his audience, including the names of the gods. Which is actually kind of normal for the time period—a few centuries later Alexander the Great would come to worship a Libyan desert deity called Ammon believing it to be an aspect Amun-Re, who was an aspect of Ra, who was an aspect of Zeus, creating a new god called Zeus-Ammon.

Syncretism is fun.

…not certain I follow.

He's referring to the power struggle within the Lights, but isn't comfortable talking about it with Johann and Max.
 
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I am still very, very uncomfortable in having this Tzeentchian bastard in our council. What? There's a possibility that he isn't? No way. The bastard was way too smug to not be a Tzeentchian bastard.

Can we kill him BoneyM? Pretty please?
Just give him a chance.
As soon as he's had time to show his loyalty, you'll see where it really lies.
Planned murder is a bit much for just suspicions.
 
This is true, but they were also very much a thing in medieval Europe. Mathilde would be familiar with them, and mentions her getting used to bathing in private as a recent development.
Privacy as we know it today was very much not a thing in a lot of medieval Europe. Inns lacked individual rooms and instead had people share beds in one or two big common rooms, travelling merchants could expect to find a bed in strangers homes, and so on.
 
You could grab anything from any part of the Classical Mediterranean, massage it a bit and it would fit at worst decently with the High Elves.
 
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