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Just a typo, note '4 stations per turn'.
Alright my mistake there sorry @Angle

Though I will argue that this:
this system is still not a great place for building industrial capacity.
is incorrect because as Neablis has stated this is a very resource rich system and:
However, deep-space manufactories are 25% more productive and cost half as much because you'll be repurposing abandoned Imperial mining stations. That will be true up to about 1500 of them.
So industrial build up will be pretty easy here it's the uplifting of the inhabitants on the other hand that will be hard not the industry.
 
Alright my mistake there sorry @Angle

Though I will argue that this:

is incorrect because as Neablis has stated this is a very resource rich system and:

So industrial build up will be pretty easy here it's the uplifting of the inhabitants on the other hand that will be hard not the industry.

Nope! Do the math. Half cost and 25% greater production on a deep space station gives 125 BP, for 375 BP cost - which is a ratio of 33%. Compare that to the 50% we can get for our bog standard manufactories on bog standard habitable planets, it's just bad. Compare it to the 75% we can get for building on Denva Primus with the kultrinium, and it's laughably bad.

Like, starting with 350 BP, one turn here gets us *almost* to finishing a single deep space manufactory, for an extra 100 BP - but not quite, because we can't even finish the damn thing. By comparison, that amount spent on Denva Primus would get us 3 and a half manufactories, for 225 extra BP, with another 75 coming once we finished the half built one next turn. I know which of those *I* would prefer.
 
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With the psychic shields removed from the body guards I would recommend doing the machine spirit chaos resistance + machine spirit controlled psychic shield combo in place of ground tactics. This will give all our bots improved chaos resistance, and it will buff Cia's personal shield as well.
I agree with Prime. That, or making the new bot design with integrated void/psychic shields + just the MS Chaos resistance. @Nightlord256, in this instance my greater fear is the bots being suddenly corrupted. Our opposition is cavemen in space, extra tactical flexibility/effectiveness seems just an overkill.

Plus if I've understood correctly, integrated void shields in a new bot design would be just more powerful than just the amulet. Probably more powerful the more powerful/bigger(?) the unit. So going to ask: @Neablis, would heavy bots have stronger integrated void shields than medium/light bots, and even light bots would have stronger integrated shields than just the welded-to-the-bot amulet version?
 
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Nope! Do the math. Half cost and 25% greater production on a deep space station gives 125 BP, for 375 BP cost - which is a ratio of 33%. Compare that to the 50% we can get for our bog standard manufactories on bog standard habitable planets, it's just bad. Compare it to the 75% we can get for building on Denva Primus with the kultrinium, and it's laughably bad.
Yeah and each one we build adds to the amount of BP that we get per an action so the first one built will move us from 350 an action to 475 which means that we can now build one per an action which will go up with each additional station built and that's not taking into account the three research options we have to boost our shipboard manufacturing* so we can potentially scale up relatively quickly.

*Large-scale Void Manufacturing (100 RP), Superconductive Shenanigans (100 RP) and Machine Spirit Shipboard Manufactories (75 RP) for those who don't know
 
Yeah and each one we build adds to the amount of BP that we get per an action so the first one built will move us from 350 an action to 475 which means that we can now build one per an action which will go up with each additional station built and that's not taking into account the three research options we have to boost our shipboard manufacturing* so we can potentially scale up relatively quickly.

*Large-scale Void Manufacturing (100 RP), Superconductive Shenanigans (100 RP) and Machine Spirit Shipboard Manufactories (75 RP) for those who don't know

The same is true on Denva primus, except even more so. After 1 turn here, we have 350 BP plus a mostly built DSM, so on our second turn we'd finish the first DSM and have a second one mostly built. After 1 turn on Denva primus we'd have 575 BP and a half built manufactory, and could build 5 extra manufactories, finish the half built one, and get another at 25%, putting us at 950 1025 BP. Like, c'mon, do the math, it's not even close...

As for LSVM, that doesn't affect our shipboard flagship manufactories - not even with a refit, they use ground manufactory rules. It could help us build better void manufactories, but even if they're twice as good at no extra cost, they'd still fall short of what we could build on Denva Primus. Add to that that we can research things to make manufacturing on Denva primus better, too, and again, it's not even close.

Oh, and we'd be starting with a ton of manufacturing capacity in the Denva system anyway, which makes things even more crazy.
 
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Planets tend to already have people on them who might object to us tiling the land with factories and also come with gravity wells that we need to lift things out of although that's a lesser concern.

I feel like Denva would have concerns if we tried to build 1,500 Manufactories on their world, unless we promised to hand them over to their control at some point, which is maybe an option but still a tough call.

The locals here however, are in no position to object. Neither is Denva or anyone else we care about. The Imperium may have something to say, but I expect we'd be sufficiently established by the time they found out that doing anything about it would require a major fleet action, and could be politically impossible if we roll out the story about being a revived ancient from the dark-age of technology who woke up on Denva, joined their Mechanicus, rose through the ranks with our amazing knowledge, and have now claimed this system for a new forge-world.

And we're not "starting with a ton of extra manufacturing capacity" in Denva, we had factories there but gave them to the locals when we left. I doubt they'd be pleased if we revoked that gift.
 
Planets tend to already have people on them who might object to us tiling the land with factories and also come with gravity wells that we need to lift things out of although that's a lesser concern.

I feel like Denva would have concerns if we tried to build 1,500 Manufactories on their world, unless we promised to hand them over to their control at some point, which is maybe an option but still a tough call.

The locals here however, are in no position to object. Neither is Denva or anyone else we care about. The Imperium may have something to say, but I expect we'd be sufficiently established by the time they found out that doing anything about it would require a major fleet action, and could be politically impossible if we roll out the story about being a revived ancient from the dark-age of technology who woke up on Denva, joined their Mechanicus, rose through the ranks with our amazing knowledge, and have now claimed this system for a new forge-world.

And we're not "starting with a ton of extra manufacturing capacity" in Denva, we had factories there but gave them to the locals when we left. I doubt they'd be pleased if we revoked that gift.

Denva primus, not Denva secundus! Which means we need to talk to the Vellkar, yeah, but they specifically like to trade and live underground, so I think we could come to a deal with them pretty easy. Especially if we're willing to do obnoxious things like negotiate with a dozen independent tribes hundreds of miles apart individually and take the ones that give us the best deal. Or, if we don't like that, they probably need a lot of help with uplift, so again, we have a *lot* to offer them as trade goods.
 
As for LSVM, that doesn't affect our shipboard manufactories - not even with a refit, they use ground manufactory rules.
Ahem:
-[] Large-scale Void Manufacturing (100 RP) Unlike ground factories, which have to deal with gravity and atmosphere, there's little stopping you from just... scaling up the principles of void manufacturing. Besides the annoying spaghetti of logistics, but that's a solvable problem. (Allows you to design large void manufactories that are more efficient, improves the manufactories on your ships to be 1/5 instead of 1/10 production. Potential for other void-based platform technologies).
yes it does.

Oh, and we'd be starting with a ton of manufacturing capacity in the Denva system anyway, which makes things even more crazy.
Capability that will mostly be going to Denvains as 1. we gave it all to them when we left and 2. I doubt that they can really afford to drop everything in order to fund our next megaproject just because it's Vita asking.
 

Nope!

Arguably it should work that way, but that's not how it's going to work because it would be complicated to have normal manufactories work differently specifically on the flagship. For the flagship you can choose between the manufactory under the ship design rules or the normal manufactories under the ground, but the ship manufactories are going to need a lot of researchn before they approach the regular ones in efficiency.

We used the ground manufactories in modular slots. Though I should have said flagship manufactories, not shipboard ones, my bad there.
 
I do think the ambition to turn Denva Primus, with its vulnerable local population, into a mega-factory is a bit sketchy.

In industrial planning terms, remember CP are a constraint. Even if we can't get as good an exponential rate here (and we might, depending on what LSVM does for us) we have a much higher cap with deep space manufactories. (And LSVM is pretty likely to help that too.)
 
Capability that will mostly be going to Denvains as 1. we gave it all to them when we left and 2. I doubt that they can really afford to drop everything in order to fund our next megaproject just because it's Vita asking.

We specifically have a benny for them to loan us manufacturing capacity. Only for one turn, but again, a significant chunk of their manufacturing capacity, which would be more than sufficient to get the ball rolling on building out a manufacturing base on Denva primus - way better than what we could get building things out here.

-[X][DENVA] Boons!
--[X] Denva #1: Unification: The Stellar Ascendancy. "Be for others as I have been for you."
--[X] Denva #2: Manufacturing Capacity

I do think the ambition to turn Denva Primus, with its vulnerable local population, into a mega-factory is a bit sketchy.

In industrial planning terms, remember CP are a constraint. Even if we can't get as good an exponential rate here (and we might, depending on what LSVM does for us) we have a much higher cap with deep space manufactories. (And LSVM is pretty likely to help that too.)

We can refit ground manufactories to use machine spirits for 20 BP - less than half of what we get from even a normal manufactory, let alone one on denva primus. CP shouldn't be a significant constraint here. And if they are, we can use the ground manufactories to build deep space ones and transition over to those, if we need to. As for lift capacity, we can build orbital spaceports for reasonably cheap in both BP and CP, we just need to spend some RP on the blueprint first.

10RP Orbital Spaceport (800 VBP, 210CP) orbital shuttles to convert 2000BP from Void to Ground or Ground to Void due to the limitation of orbital structures can't be converted to handle other types of strike craft

Oh, and I agree that Denva Primus should be treated with care - but that doesn't mean we should completely ignore them. The Vellkar like to trade, so we'll sit down and make some deals. As long as we don't go out of our way to screw them over, I think they'll be alright.
 
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We can refit ground manufactories to use machine spirits for 20 BP - less than half of what we get from even a normal manufactory, let alone one on denva primus. CP shouldn't be a significant constraint here.
20 CP per 50 BP vs. 15 CP per 100 BP that will be further improved by LSVM, though.

Those spaceports may be cunningly designed, but they still increase the price by 5 CP and 20 BP per factory (or more, with higher-performance factories, though you can delay that investment during the early stages of the run-up.


I really don't think that space industry in The Space Industry System is going to be numerically unfavorable if we actually give it a chance, but under your premises I can't disagree too much with your math.
 
If we're talking about where to set up a manufacturing base for ourselves, pure production efficiency is important, but there are other factors too like defensibility or strategic positioning.

Would putting it in space or on a planet be safer. If put in Denva, any raiding party might run into the Denvan fleet. Or maybe we want it to be more out of the way like in this system, whereas Denva is a sub sector crossroads. I don't have a huge preference either way
 
20 CP per 50 BP vs. 15 CP per 100 BP that will be further improved by LSVM, though.

Those spaceports may be cunningly designed, but they still increase the price by 5 CP and 20 BP per factory (or more, with higher-performance factories, though you can delay that investment during the early stages of the run-up.


I really don't think that space industry in The Space Industry System is going to be numerically unfavorable if we actually give it a chance, but under your premises I can't disagree too much with your math.

75 BP, not 50. And that would still let us get 30000 BP per action, which is an absolute ton. And of course, we could turn right around and start using that BP to build out deep space manufactories and start mothballing the ground ones, if we still need more BP. Or, there's Ground Manufacturing Efficiency Improvements, or Machine Sprit Production Improvements, or Superconductors, or medium defense platforms (For the orbital spaceports), or probably several other bits of tech, if we need them. And again, we probably don't need to build out to nearly that extent anyway. Oh, and when we get back to Denva they'll probably have some of theose techs for free, and steep discounts for the other ones, given we told them to research General Design / Industry techs before we left as our final benny for the defense fleet we gave them.

Also, this is *a* decent system for space manufactories, but probably not even the best one, and given ground manufacturing is better in general and Denva Primus is *so good* for that, of course it still loses out. Especially given we already have a manufacturing base there to draw on.

If we're talking about where to set up a manufacturing base for ourselves, pure production efficiency is important, but there are other factors too like defensibility or strategic positioning.

Would putting it in space or on a planet be safer. If put in Denva, any raiding party might run into the Denvan fleet. Or maybe we want it to be more out of the way like in this system, whereas Denva is a sub sector crossroads. I don't have a huge preference either way

For defensibility, we definitely want it in Denva. Means we can build defenses there, and cover Denva with them too. And of course, we'd need to build the manufacturing capacity to build the defenses anyway...

Like, don't get me wrong, we'll probably industrialize this system at some point. But it shouldn't be now.
 
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Im particularly partial to space mainly because we have a bunch of research that boost production in space and we can easily convert into spaceports.

No need to worry about cargo lift capacity.
 
Im particularly partial to space mainly because we have a bunch of research that boost production in space and we can easily convert into spaceports.

No need to worry about cargo lift capacity.

We have research that boosts ground, too! And the lift capacity is really not that expensive, it adds like an extra 7.875 CP and 30 BP per manufactory, which doesn't even have to be paid when we build the manufactory, only when we want the lift capacity.

With, again, researches to make that more efficient, too, if we want it to be.
 
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Isn't there a technology for large-scale void manufacturing that makes them more efficient?

As for defensibility, I think the main thing is that deep space void manufacturing can be pretty tough to find if you have them stealthed, which our design does.

When it comes to timing, they might be an asset for a detachment of tech priests. But I think long term we're going to be handing off this stuff to Denva.

Meanwhile, the food growing tech might be good for mass aid. Sure, that won't fix everything that's wrong with the stations. But if they're fed, you can at least relocate them once it becomes clear to them that they need to gtfo to not die.
 
Isn't there a technology for large-scale void manufacturing that makes them more efficient?

As for defensibility, I think the main thing is that deep space void manufacturing can be pretty tough to find if you have them stealthed, which our design does.

When it comes to timing, they might be an asset for a detachment of tech priests. But I think long term we're going to be handing off this stuff to Denva.

Meanwhile, the food growing tech might be good for mass aid. Sure, that won't fix everything that's wrong with the stations. But if they're fed, you can at least relocate them once it becomes clear to them that they need to gtfo to not die.

There is such a tech - but again, even if it doubles efficiency, they'd still come short. And any number less than that wouldn't even come close. As for defensibility, the best defensibility comes from being in a system with built out defenses and a lack of chaos cultists, which means Denva. And obviously we need to hand this off to Denva, there are 8 million people here, and we have 46. As for growing food, they don't have the industrial base to put the technology to good use, nor the skills to run such even if we gave it for them. Another thing that we simply cannot meaningfully tackle in the short term.
 
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We have research that boosts ground, too! And the lift capacity is really not that expensive, it adds like an extra 7.875 CP and 30 BP per manufactory, which doesn't even have to be paid when we build the manufactory, only when we want the lift capacity.
It's not as relevant since it's pass on technology that our space ones did,
It's specifically pointed out that a improvement in efficiency can be made by designing a manufactory that takes advantage of zero G, something a planet can not have.
And the lift capacity do add up because ship lady does most of her things in space.

Ps: I also don't believe we ever will find a world to vita call her own and someone will not try to campaign that vita should give it someone else.
 
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It's not as relevant since it's pass on technology that our space ones did,
It's specifically pointed out that a improvement in efficiency can be made by designing a manufactory that takes advantage of zero G, something a planet can not have.
And the lift capacity do add up because ship lady does most of her things in space.

Again though, we have other technology to boost ground too, and they have a way better starting point. See:

there's Ground Manufacturing Efficiency Improvements, or Machine Sprit Production Improvements, or Superconductors, or medium defense platforms

All of which we'd either get for free, or get large discounts too on getting back to Denva, because we told the Denvans to research them before we left.
 
Again though, we have other technology to boost ground too, and they have a way better starting point. See:



All of which we'd either get for free, or get large discounts too on getting back to Denva, because we told the Denvans to research them before we left.
2 of these 3 are universal bonuses. The only one that is exclusive to the ground us do what we did on space.

Also the problem with Devan is there's people living there and we gave up our industry.

So yeah it was a strategical missplay and we will have start from zero.
 
I don't want Vita to find a world of her own, I want her to make a craftworld of her own that she can take anywhere.
... You understand that it still means she needs a ridonculous spaceborn industry to build such a thing right?

Also to make a fleet quickly and other stuff that is not sensible expect a ship to do even something as huge as a craftworld.
 
2 of these 3 are universal bonuses. The only one that is exclusive to the ground us do what we did on space.

Also the problem with Devan is there's people living there and we gave up our industry.

So yeah it was a strategical missplay and we will have start from zero.

Again, we start from a better position with ground manufacturies, so anything that applies to both will widen the gap, not shrink it.

As for Denva, I want to work on primus - and we can negotiate with the Vellkar for space on the surface, they all live underground anyway, and we have a lot to offer them.

And for manufacturing capacity, we have a boon for them to lend us a substantial portion of theirs when we get back, including the stuff they've built out, so we can get a significant headstart. Even a mere 1000 BP would get us an extra 750 BP per turn built out on Denva Primus, and I think we can expect at least twice that, if not more.
 
If we're talking about where to set up a manufacturing base for ourselves, pure production efficiency is important, but there are other factors too like defensibility or strategic positioning.

Would putting it in space or on a planet be safer. If put in Denva, any raiding party might run into the Denvan fleet. Or maybe we want it to be more out of the way like in this system, whereas Denva is a sub sector crossroads. I don't have a huge preference either way
Deep space manufacturing is relatively stealthy, but that's not something to rely on for a critical asset given any choice.

To properly utilize an industrial base of our own anywhere, we really need at least one of interstellar remote control (warp communications) or a daughter AI.

If we do a really big industrial build, defending it may be...kind of trivial.

If we built up to 1500 deep-space manufactories here, using up the discount for repurposing abandoned Imperial platforms, that'd be 150k BP per action. That's a pretty ludicrous amount of output. Like, we could make 10 good heavy cruisers per action with that. It's overwhelming. (EDIT: Actually 187.5k, I'd left out the 25% output improvement.)
All of which we'd either get for free, or get large discounts too on getting back to Denva, because we told the Denvans to research them before we left.
Or we might get LSVM, which is just as in the wheelhouse of what we asked them to do.
 
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