Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

[avatar11792]

[X] Plan: Seeds, Seeds, and Seeds
[X] Plan some chatoic clean up
[x] Plan: Something Hinky is afoot, let's kick its shin

 

[Nightlord256]

With the psychic shields removed from the body guards I would recommend doing the machine spirit chaos resistance + machine spirit controlled psychic shield combo in place of ground tactics. This will give all our bots improved chaos resistance, and it will buff Cia's personal shield as well.

I think we can probably get more than 10 bots with void shields, but I'm sure Neablis will just fill out our ranks with the spare BP.

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I agree with Prime. That, or making the new bot design with integrated void/psychic shields + just the MS Chaos resistance. @Nightlord256, in this instance my greater fear is the bots being suddenly corrupted. Our opposition is cavemen in space, extra tactical flexibility/effectiveness seems just an overkill.

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It is not the skill of the space cavemen, but the complexity of the operation that makes the tactics upgrade win out for me. A boarding operation against a space ship is already a difficult puzzle of 3D tactics and close quarters combat. In this case we add to that several different factions in a tight space with perhaps changing allegiances. Further complicating matters, this isn't a warship but their home so there will be lots of non-combatants in close proximity to any fighting.

Combine the above with the fact that our bots already have a base level of chaos resistance and we can destruct corrupted bots. All this makes the Tactics upgrade win out for both this situation and long term for me.

Posting quickly at work, so excuse brevity.

note that the lighter bots aren't completely useless. You want them for tight spaces fighting or against small, agile foes. The heavy bots are specced out to fight heavy foes, and won't be able to do things like catch light infantry in jungle.

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Very good to know that bots are specced for different roles. Adjusting the squad composition in my plan to be an even mix of Light, Medium, and Heavy bots. Also clarified that they should also be assigned to Victan if he has to do any in person negotiation.

 

[LightLan]

Also clarified that they should also be assigned to Victan if he has to do any in person negotiation.

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I'd recommend using one of our Avatars, if doing in person negotiation. Victan can give advice to us via the implants.

 

[meianmaru]

It is not the skill of the space cavemen, but the complexity of the operation that makes the tactics upgrade win out for me. A boarding operation against a space ship is already a difficult puzzle of 3D tactics and close quarters combat. In this case we add to that several different factions in a tight space with perhaps changing allegiances. Further complicating matters, this isn't a warship but their home so there will be lots of non-combatants in close proximity to any fighting.

Combine the above with the fact that our bots already have a base level of chaos resistance and we can destruct corrupted bots. All this makes the Tactics upgrade win out for both this situation and long term for me.

Posting quickly at work, so excuse brevity.

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You make a good point about the complexity of the situation. Still, lets hope that our bots won't run into anything that might punch past the baseline chaos-resistance. And if we are not getting on this turn, I'm hoping that we can get the combo of MS Chaos-resistance + MS psy-shields + psy-shield encryption on the next turn. Or at the very least encryption. With those out of the way, we can hopefully shift the majority of our research towards something else than anti-chaos, at least temporarily.

...Though Alternative Shield Meanings would be good to get too, but for mostly different reasons. Unlocking the path to the Yelling into the Warp which is half of the requirements for FTL comms, even very limited ones, would be nice.

 

[Nightlord256]

I'd recommend using one of our Avatars, if doing in person negotiation. Victan can give advice to us via the implants.

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An even better idea, added to the plan.

You make a good point about the complexity of the situation. Still, lets hope that our bots won't run into anything that might punch past the baseline chaos-resistance. And if we are not getting on this turn, I'm hoping that we can get the combo of MS Chaos-resistance + MS psy-shields + psy-shield encryption on the next turn. Or at the very least encryption.

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I agree, encryption is at the top of my list for next turn followed by MS Chaos + MS Psy-Shields. Not only do those increase our chaos resistance, but they bridge the two tech trees we have most heavily invested in. I expect the payoff to be very nice.

 

[LightLan]

I agree, encryption is at the top of my list for next turn followed by MS Chaos + MS Psy-Shields. Not only do those increase our chaos resistance, but they bridge the two tech trees we have most heavily invested in. I expect the payoff to be very nice.

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I humbly make a case for Empathy at Range.

It would help with finding active chaos rituals, uncontrolled psykers and demons that aren't doing a good job hiding. You can already do that at short range, empathy at range lets you do it at longer ranges. Some combination of that tech and immaterium understanding and maybe other things might let you make a "corruption-o-meter" like you're looking for, but it's at least two layers into the tech-tree and is likely to be a bonus tech from a crit, not something you'd get from normal research.

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We are still in a system with cultists and only getting the ship this turn. Getting some warning of cultist shenanigans would be helpful.

 

[Nightlord256]

I humbly make a case for Empathy at Range

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Agreed, that would round out my list of ideal techs for next turn assuming 500 RP.

 

[Aineko]

How do deep space industries get their feedstock? Or would we need to assign them mining ships to ferry inner system resources?

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There was a discussion of where they get positioned - IIRC, deep space are still placed near asteroids or similar. In this case, they'd be throughout the rich belt that all these habs are in.

Is that because we can't put our factories on the likes of (modern, unterraformed) Mercury or Venus for whatever reason, or because the IoM is so fucking stubborn they colonized those places too?

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This had a specific discussion, yes. Our ground manufacturies are only compatible with approximately habitable environments, though there are techs that can make that at least somewhat more flexible behind Ground Manufactory Efficiency Improvements.

 

[Angle]

I'm open to getting a relief fleet, but only after we've stabilized this system, otherwise we could come back to it being fully a Chaos system.

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I don't think we *can* stabilize the system though - someone did the math, and it'd take like 14 build actions just to get the industrial capacity to make repairs. Add to that the actions to actually make those repairs, the fighting necessary to get rid of the chaos cultists, the diplomacy required to put together some kind of governance for the people here, the education required to let them maintain the stuff... And we're way past the threshold allowed to us by wayfarer.

 

[Dmol8]

I don't think we *can* stabilize the system though - someone did the math, and it'd take like 14 build actions just to get the industrial capacity to make repairs. Add to that the actions to actually make those repairs, the fighting necessary to get rid of the chaos cultists, the diplomacy required to put together some kind of governance for the people here, the education required to let them maintain the stuff... And we're way past the threshold allowed to us by wayfarer.

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I...what? No seriously what. Stabilizing in this case is triage. Unfuck the system well enough that it is on an upward trajectory instead of the current doom spiral.

We don't need to fix most things, just enough things that people can live until Denva or some other aid shows up. So clean up Chaos and do some small amount of repairs to fix their life support while at the same time setting them up so they can build themselves up into a society.

We don't need to fix every station, just enough to support the millions present in the system, then move them all onto the few fixed stations, give them enough tools that they can live instead of surviving and move on.

Possibly build the labs we need to for dangerous work somewhere distant in the system itself so we can finish off at least the starter dangerous research.

 

[Aineko]

I don't think we *can* stabilize the system though - someone did the math, and it'd take like 14 build actions just to get the industrial capacity to make repairs. Add to that the actions to actually make those repairs, the fighting necessary to get rid of the chaos cultists, the diplomacy required to put together some kind of governance for the people here, the education required to let them maintain the stuff... And we're way past the threshold allowed to us by wayfarer.

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I see the exact opposite conclusion from that: 4-5 turns means it is doable.

It also means it's expensive and maybe we shouldn't put our time there. But it's not prohibitive. Spend 3 actions building 1 action on diplomacy or orders each turn. Research probably goes fully back seat.

EDIT: but the estimate using 3x the correct productivity for the manufactories (?) probably sinks that! Even with my hopes for LSVM I am sure not that hopeful.

 

[Angle]

Huh?

I didn't see anything else.





160 Orbital Habitats to completely rehouse everyone, so...320,000 VBP...

Another horrible spreadsheet later:

Increment​	Saved VBP​	Ship​	Manufactories​	Total VBP​	Manufactories Built​	Leftover VBP​	Time to Build Habitats​	Time Total​
1​	0​	1​	0​	350​	0​	350​	914.285714285714​	915.285714285714​
2​	350​	1​	0​	350​	1​	325​	914.285714285714​	916.285714285714​
3​	325​	1​	1​	725​	2​	300​	441.379310344828​	444.379310344828​
4​	300​	1​	3​	1475​	4​	275​	216.949152542373​	220.949152542373​
5​	275​	1​	7​	2975​	8​	250​	107.563025210084​	112.563025210084​
6​	250​	1​	15​	5975​	16​	225​	53.5564853556485​	59.5564853556485​
7​	225​	1​	31​	11975​	32​	200​	26.7223382045929​	33.7223382045929​
8​	200​	1​	63​	23975​	64​	175​	13.3472367049009​	21.3472367049009​
9​	175​	1​	127​	47975​	128​	150​	6.67014069828035​	15.6701406982804​
10​	150​	1​	255​	95975​	256​	125​	3.33420161500391​	13.3342016150039​
11​	125​	1​	511​	191975​	512​	100​	1.66688370881625​	12.6668837088163​
12​	100​	1​	1023​	383975​	1024​	75​	0.833387590337913​	12.8333875903379​

...so we can rehouse everyone in a minimum of 13 actions, building out 511 Manufactories to crank out the 160 Habitats in less than three decades.

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...Looking at these numbers, they look completely crazy? Like, how does the first DSM take us from 350 VBP to 725? That should be 475, a way smaller number.

 

[Aineko]

I...what? No seriously what. Stabilizing in this case is triage. Unfuck the system well enough that it is on an upward trajectory instead of the current doom spiral.

We don't need to fix most things, just enough things that people can live until Denva or some other aid shows up. So clean up Chaos and do some small amount of repairs to fix their life support while at the same time setting them up so they can build themselves up into a society.

We don't need to fix every station, just enough to support the millions present in the system, then move them all onto the few fixed stations, give them enough tools that they can live instead of surviving and move on.

Possibly build the labs we need to for dangerous work somewhere distant in the system itself so we can finish off at least the starter dangerous research.

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Move the mutually hostile inhabitants in together? Enable the cavemen trapped in spaceships to build up their society despite having zero understanding of its material foundations?

I don't see how this is supposed to work.

...Looking at these numbers, they look completely crazy? Like, how does the first DSM take us from 350 VBP to 725? That should be 475, a way smaller number.

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Yeah you do look right there.

 

[Angle]

I...what? No seriously what. Stabilizing in this case is triage. Unfuck the system well enough that it is on an upward trajectory instead of the current doom spiral.

We don't need to fix most things, just enough things that people can live until Denva or some other aid shows up. So clean up Chaos and do some small amount of repairs to fix their life support while at the same time setting them up so they can build themselves up into a society.

We don't need to fix every station, just enough to support the millions present in the system, then move them all onto the few fixed stations, give them enough tools that they can live instead of surviving and move on.

Possibly build the labs we need to for dangerous work somewhere distant in the system itself so we can finish off at least the starter dangerous research.

Click to shrink...

It's still like 250 BP per station. Even if we only need 10 or 20, that's still several turns all on it's own. Add to that the challenge of sorting cultists from non cultists, preventing them from killing each other when we put them in one station, and the education required to keep things running smoothly even just for 20 years or so... I don't know, I don't think it's a good idea. Again, see:

There's so much suffering in this galaxy already. If I start taking responsibility for the plight of anybody I run into, then it'll crush me, and prevent me from doing everything I can to actually force the kind of long-lasting change that matters.

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I don't want to tell you what to do in this system. If you want to try to help the people go for it. But it's not going to be easy. They don't have a centralized government, and they've lost most technological knoweldge.

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This really seems like something we should come back to later.

 

[redpotato4]

My general thought is that we'll get more of an idea of what's going on/what needs triage now from this upcoming turn's diplomacy action, and the leading plan has some BP going to relief supplies. Unless there's some specific, low hanging fruit in terms of fixing stuff revealed, I'm in favor of heading to explore Caldereth the turn after, and then back to Denva where they can handle the long term stabilization of Vorthryn (though they'll need actual warp-capable ships first). Again, depending on what we find out that might change, but that's what I'm feeling right now.

 

[KyleDaScourge]

These people have been on a downward trajectory since the IoM pulled out a few hundred years ago. Granted, it's possible we showed up just in time to watch the final collapse, but it seems more likely that any stations which are still sufficiently functional to have any living inhabitants can probably manage a few more decades. I'd also think we should be able to significantly slow that deterioration via giving the stations access to people who actually know how to maintain them and can triage things.

Remote Organic-Machine Control lets us do that. Do up ten thousand robots in mechanicus livery and drop a squad at each station. Our Cogitare can cycle through controlling groups to interview station inhabitants, triage repair and maintenance priorities, help distribute aid and educational materials, etc... All without leaving the safety and comfort of the Spark for the next couple of turns until we can construct a small base in the system, at which point we can head back to Denva while they keep up the progress, and also at which point they'll have had a decade to find promising kids from the various stations and begin recruitment and training.

We can spend three turns getting some crucial research done, eliminating the biggest issues, and setting up a base before heading to Denva for a few more, and by the time we get back it's entirely possible we'll have a rapidly growing Cogitare branch swelling with recruits who know us as the savior of the system who made it all possible.

 

[Aineko]

Remote Organic-Machine Control lets us do that. Do up ten thousand robots in mechanicus livery and drop a squad at each station. Our Cogitare can cycle through controlling groups to interview station inhabitants, triage repair and maintenance priorities, help distribute aid and educational materials, etc... All without leaving the safety and comfort of the Spark for the next couple of turns until we can construct a small base in the system, at which point we can head back to Denva while they keep up the progress, and also at which point they'll have had a decade to find promising kids from the various stations and begin recruitment and training.

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Not sure why OMC is better than Vita at the controls, here? I dunno, maybe we can use the Cogitare as a sort of bonus action but that isn't how I understand the picture...