Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest
- Thread starter Neablis
- Start date
- Mature Sci-Fi
- Location
- Alaska
Yeah, after re-reading the latest turn, I realized that the MC cast themselves as an unfrozen explorer, rather than an AI. You're right.
I think we should start working toward acceptance and an eventual reveal, though. Stable friendships aren't built on lies.
Hmm. Sure, roll a d6. 1-2 is nothing, 3-4 might discount something a bit, 5 might open up a new tech. 6 is discount and new tech.
You've been awake for 65
That being said, setting objectives and letting me figure out the details is a generally good strategy. If you come up with a clever write-in it'll help, but really what I'm looking for is vibes and what you prioritize in you diplomatic actions. I will try to interpret things positively but sometimes trying to be detailed runs the risks of focusing on the wrong things.
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Great update overall, thank you very much for writing this quest, chequing the updates and the discussion is definitely the high point of my day now. I especially like Vita's personality, the small details is what turn a soup of letters and numbers into an actually compelling story. How Vita can't help but giggle or roll her eyes every time she hears the word "hereteck" is a great prove that a good writer doesn't need much to properly stablish a character.
Well, so the sword of Damocles that was the Mechanicus is finally gone, even if they decided to still turn hostile, we have successfully declawed them to the point that writing a strongly worded letter is the most aggressive action they have left.
The 2 Diplo/ 1 construction/ 1 research plan for the next turn looks pretty good, but I think we should focus the construction efforts to make as much manufacturing as possible and finally hit that sweet exponential growth.
I have been looking through the options for ships and while the base ships are pretty cheap, all the add-ons like armour and shields definitely rack up the price.
Well, so the sword of Damocles that was the Mechanicus is finally gone, even if they decided to still turn hostile, we have successfully declawed them to the point that writing a strongly worded letter is the most aggressive action they have left.
The 2 Diplo/ 1 construction/ 1 research plan for the next turn looks pretty good, but I think we should focus the construction efforts to make as much manufacturing as possible and finally hit that sweet exponential growth.
I have been looking through the options for ships and while the base ships are pretty cheap, all the add-ons like armour and shields definitely rack up the price.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
[ ] Plan: Sorting out the New Order
-[] Diplomacy: The Summit of Denuva II
--[ ] Well, with the back of the regressive folks decisively broken, the time has come to build something new. Fortunately, you're a lot better at this than you are at kinetic encounters. Using the contacts you've forged, the trust you've garnered, bring everyone to the bargaining table, acting as both mediator and arbitrator to any agreements made. At the end of the day, a world may be able to survive with their guns pointed at each other, but it'll always be an unstable situation that'll fall apart when an unplanned pressure is put on it. The Mechanicus of Denuva must join hands with the people of Denuva--this isn't even us saying that they need to give up all the secrets--we know and understand full well that Technology is hard and acquiring mastery of even a single branch of it can be the work of a lifetime even if you had unlimited access to knowledge--but extending that monopoly to even basic of the basic techniques and disciplines is doing nobody any favors--the Mechanicus need to waste time and energy on simple maintenence and manufacturing that could be taught to a well trained technician instead of furthering their Question for Knowledge, and the people meanwhile are bottlenecked in their growth and development. Nobody benefits from this, and we have a chance now to establish a system that actually gives everyone what they want instead of spending tremendous energy just to build and point weapons at each other. Help them out, provide incentives, anectodtes, and evidence backing our position, and hopefully we can develop a system that can stand the test of time. (TL;DR: Use all the groundwork we've built up over the course of the game to help hammer out a new order in Denuva II, one that hopefully makes it damn clear that you can't expect to have your scientists have to do all the basic manufacturing and maintenence and still expect to have the time to further their own development. Use our database to support our arguments as needed, and don't be too afraid to release non militarized designs and concepts as carrots too.)
--[ ] Victan can hopefully give us a bonus on this.
-[ ] Diploversion?: Also, what's with the station?
--[ ] You're willing to continue the Work with Klyssar Station--goodness knows we'd like some reasonably up to date charts so we can figure out what's going on in the area ourselves. Promise our support, and prove it by way of not only sending them supplies, but reinforcements as well to help chew through their defenses. We'll also send our already established remote proxy to help coordinate any efforts, and determine f there's anything else we can do to assist the project.
-[ ] Construction: (2,750 Ground BP, 500 Void BP)
--[ ] 6x Spaceports (-600 BP, -150 CP)
---[ ] We're going to build these on the spot they already nuked, because hey, it's Free Real Estate.
--[ ] 60x Shuttles (-1200 BP, -300 CP)
--[ ] Make good our Combat Losses (-270 BP)
--[ ] Klyssa Station Dig Supplies (-250 BP, shipped using available infrastructure this turn)
--[ ] Incentive Budget for the Summit and Rent (-430 BP)
--[ ] 1x Orbital Manufactory (-500 VBP, -50 CP)
-[ ] Research (200 + 25 RP)
--[ ] Biology is kinda wet (75 + 25 Anexa RP)
--[ ] A Study in Physics (125/150 RP)
-[] [ANEXA] Research - Biology is Kinda Wet
-[] [VICTAN] Communication - We're doing a lot of that this turn I notice, and I don't think we're being very subtle about it.
EDIT: Well, you can take that or leave it to Meianmaru who asked, I just dropped this and noticed the request, so I don't know if it was cool or not.
-[] Diplomacy: The Summit of Denuva II
--[ ] Well, with the back of the regressive folks decisively broken, the time has come to build something new. Fortunately, you're a lot better at this than you are at kinetic encounters. Using the contacts you've forged, the trust you've garnered, bring everyone to the bargaining table, acting as both mediator and arbitrator to any agreements made. At the end of the day, a world may be able to survive with their guns pointed at each other, but it'll always be an unstable situation that'll fall apart when an unplanned pressure is put on it. The Mechanicus of Denuva must join hands with the people of Denuva--this isn't even us saying that they need to give up all the secrets--we know and understand full well that Technology is hard and acquiring mastery of even a single branch of it can be the work of a lifetime even if you had unlimited access to knowledge--but extending that monopoly to even basic of the basic techniques and disciplines is doing nobody any favors--the Mechanicus need to waste time and energy on simple maintenence and manufacturing that could be taught to a well trained technician instead of furthering their Question for Knowledge, and the people meanwhile are bottlenecked in their growth and development. Nobody benefits from this, and we have a chance now to establish a system that actually gives everyone what they want instead of spending tremendous energy just to build and point weapons at each other. Help them out, provide incentives, anectodtes, and evidence backing our position, and hopefully we can develop a system that can stand the test of time. (TL;DR: Use all the groundwork we've built up over the course of the game to help hammer out a new order in Denuva II, one that hopefully makes it damn clear that you can't expect to have your scientists have to do all the basic manufacturing and maintenence and still expect to have the time to further their own development. Use our database to support our arguments as needed, and don't be too afraid to release non militarized designs and concepts as carrots too.)
--[ ] Victan can hopefully give us a bonus on this.
-[ ] Diploversion?: Also, what's with the station?
--[ ] You're willing to continue the Work with Klyssar Station--goodness knows we'd like some reasonably up to date charts so we can figure out what's going on in the area ourselves. Promise our support, and prove it by way of not only sending them supplies, but reinforcements as well to help chew through their defenses. We'll also send our already established remote proxy to help coordinate any efforts, and determine f there's anything else we can do to assist the project.
-[ ] Construction: (2,750 Ground BP, 500 Void BP)
--[ ] 6x Spaceports (-600 BP, -150 CP)
---[ ] We're going to build these on the spot they already nuked, because hey, it's Free Real Estate.
--[ ] 60x Shuttles (-1200 BP, -300 CP)
--[ ] Make good our Combat Losses (-270 BP)
--[ ] Klyssa Station Dig Supplies (-250 BP, shipped using available infrastructure this turn)
--[ ] Incentive Budget for the Summit and Rent (-430 BP)
--[ ] 1x Orbital Manufactory (-500 VBP, -50 CP)
-[ ] Research (200 + 25 RP)
--[ ] Biology is kinda wet (75 + 25 Anexa RP)
--[ ] A Study in Physics (125/150 RP)
-[] [ANEXA] Research - Biology is Kinda Wet
-[] [VICTAN] Communication - We're doing a lot of that this turn I notice, and I don't think we're being very subtle about it.
EDIT: Well, you can take that or leave it to Meianmaru who asked, I just dropped this and noticed the request, so I don't know if it was cool or not.
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- Location
- The internet
Yeah. My understanding is that a valid combat action looks something like this:
[ ] Wage War against Axis: Prioritize the Western Front against Germany and Italy over the Easter Front against the Empire of Japan in terms of ground and air assets, vice versa for naval strength. Objective is the liberation of Western Europe and the occupied pacific islands as well as the unconditional surrender and occupation of Germany, Italy and Japan.
And that's the only action we'd need to fight all of ww2 from a military perspective. We'd also have 1 action regarding diplomacy with the allies & lend lease, and then 2 production actions. And that would be it for all of ww2.
Angle
Release Candidate Enby
- Location
- Colorado, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them/Theirs/Comrade
We can learn if we need to. Like, this is going to be our home base for the foreseeable future, we have a large stake in it. We should be involved in making it a better place and making sure things go well. Not necessarily in control, but definitely involved.
I agree, but that's a long term project - at least 5 turns out, IMO, maybe 10.
Vague Is Good! Got it, will pursue vague vibes over finicky details. XD
I generally agree, though I think we should still earmark as decent chunk of BP to teching up and nation building Denva, on top of what we need for dealing with the mechanicus. Not sure how much - 25% - 40%, maybe.
Also the question of whether we should focus on ground BP, or whether we should start building as much void BP as possible. Void Manufactories are a lot more expensive per BP, but it is in the void... Maybe get one or two just for flexibility and experience, and then see where that takes us?
The magnetic catapults are wildly inefficient - spaceports and shuttles are way cheaper. And more flexible. And we already have the spaceports... Lemme write my own action, hold on...
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
You know, you could just ask me to adjust from an initial draft instead of just make a competing plan based on a single complaint?
Seriously, it's a cooperative game! We make early submissions so we can hash out bugs!
Angle
Release Candidate Enby
- Location
- Colorado, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them/Theirs/Comrade
I have more than just that I'd change - I want to try writing a whole plan just for comparison. I don't actually expect to use the plan, at least not in it's initial form.
@Neablis , is it possible to base both fighters and shuttles out of the same spaceport? Are there penalties? Or is it just flat out impossible?
The existing ground capacity is sufficient to replace the mechanicus services ten times over. That along with the educational materials Aevon have already beeen taking advantage of is plenty sufficient for these people to better themselves.
Focus on void capacity, both to fulfill Vita's desires, and because threats will come from the stars.
Focus on void capacity, both to fulfill Vita's desires, and because threats will come from the stars.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'd like to build a space elevator. It's not the biggest thing in the world (well, metaphorically it's not, literally, it will be) but I mostly just want to build a megastructure. Other than that? Do a bunch of research along the way. There's probably going to be quite a lot of political maneuvering in the near future, since after getting our mechanicus ducks in a line, we will probably do the same with the local governments right afterwards
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Adjustment to my plan made, we'll have enough voidlift to convert everything to VBP after this turn with some overflow, at which point things get a little crazy. It's pretty CP hungry though, which I'm not super fond of, but it does put us in a good position long run.
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Angle
Release Candidate Enby
- Location
- Colorado, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them/Theirs/Comrade
I think that's silly too, though. We don't actually need that much void lift - we have lots and lots of stuff on planet we need to do. Maybe a little bit of extra lift would be nice, but mostly I think we should keep our focus planetside for now.
Rip no loot. The real mechanicus probably took all the good stuff with them when they left. No reason to leave behind relics on a forlorn hope.
That's a great way to describe it.
Ah, but the mag catapults are much more CP efficient. If you keep building at this rate that's going to get relevant sooner rather than later. Same with the void manufactories. And the deep space ones are the most efficient and dispersed through the system, so they're also generally more resistant to attack. They're also the ones that will be most upgraded by future tech.
Only one or the other can be active at a time. So you can make your existing spaceports host shuttles instead of fighters, but then if you want to launch the fighters there'll be a several hour delay before they can launch, and the rearming will be slow/bad for a while while the spaceports swap over. And it'll delay your shuttles narratively. But you'll want to keep at least some fighters active in case anybody gets nuke-happy - though your orbital missiles also cover that base.
- Location
- United Kingdom
My main concern with the diplo actions is that I'm not sure we can combine diplomacy with the Mechanicus remnants with thefive Denvan nations in one action yet, though if it works that'd be great.
As for the construction Neablis confirmed we don't need to use Void BP for the station supplies, which means we can just about build a shipyard and 1 destroyer in one turn.
For the research I feel like swapping Anexa to Study of Physics is a bit safer? We don't roll for the research until it completes, so putting her on that means we don't run the risk of her getting a poor research roll for the third time in a row, and the subject matter should be something she finds interesting.
[] Plan: SPACESHIP
-[] Insert Alectai's two Diplo actions here
-[] Construction: (3,250 BP)
--[] 3x Spaceports (300 BP, 75 CP)
--[] 30x Shuttles (600 BP, 150 CP)
--[] 1x Small Shipyard (1000 void BP, 50 CP)
--[] Tiny system monitor (950 void BP, 50 CP)
--[] Klyssa Station Dig Supplies (250 BP, given to the Mechanicus and shipped using their infrastructure this turn)
--[] Incentive Budget for the Summit and Rent (150 BP)
-[] Research (200 + 25 RP)
--[] Biology is kinda wet (100 RP)
--[] A Study in Physics (100 + 25 Anexa RP/150 RP)
-[] [ANEXA] Research - A Study in Physics
-[] [VICTAN] Communication - We're doing a lot of that this turn I notice, and I don't think we're being very subtle about it.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
- Location
- Alaska
I've seen one discussion of a destroyer … who's going to crew it?
- Location
- The internet
Well, for comparison we can look at different ways to get 500 void BP
Factory + Shuttles
10 x Manufactory (1000 BP, 500 CP)
1x Spaceport (100 BP, 25 CP)
10x shuttles (200 BP, 50 CP)
Total: 1300 BP, 575 CP
Factory + Magnetic Launch
10 x Manufactory (1000 BP, 500 CP)
Magnetic Catapult launch system (1000 BP, 50 CP)
Total: 2000 BP, 550 CP
Space Factory:
10x Orbital Manufactory (5000 void BP, 500 CP)
Total: 5000 BP, 500 CP
Basically, shuttles win unless you really need to optimize CP, which may be important in the future, but honestly that sounds like a great argument for building lots of manned manufactories in return for a tithe of the material. That would be more CP efficient than space factories anyway. The 5x BP cost is simply too punishing to make Orbital Manufactories a valid option I think.
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meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
I don't get this logic of removing of the chance of her rolling. How does it help us or her? But I like your plan otherwise, and might try using it as a base by adding diplo-actions and moving Anexa to biology.
Angle
Release Candidate Enby
- Location
- Colorado, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them/Theirs/Comrade
@Neablis: How is this, as a write in? Is this too many goals for just two actions? Do you like it better or worse than the big text walls?
-[] Diploversion, 2 actions, spread over several goals, with higher goals being prioritiezed.
--[] End the mechanicus tech monopoly.
--[] Try and arrange for the mechanicus to have a stable and productive long term position, so as to head off future conflict and integrate them with the rest of the planet.
--[] Technological Uplift: We're not going to close the entire tech gap, but we should make a dent in the most important parts of it, especially general life support - housing, food, medicine, and communications.
--[] Create some kind of United Nations, and other international institutions that can help the nations of Denva avoid conflict and societal decay and decline, including economic and environmental problems.
--[] Establish a system of publishing houses, covering art, science, journalism, and anything else that comes up, to support our efforts. Try to avoid stepping on the existing publishing industry too hard while we're at it.
--[] Begin trying to get a handle on the problem of Chaos, and at least setup some kind of a system to keep watch for it.
--[] Begin investigating Klyssars nest and get more information on it.
--[] Begin investigating the enclaves and get more information on them, and involve the nations of Denva in this process. We ultimately want them to be as well integrated with Denvan society as is reasonably possible.
-[] Diploversion, 2 actions, spread over several goals, with higher goals being prioritiezed.
--[] End the mechanicus tech monopoly.
--[] Try and arrange for the mechanicus to have a stable and productive long term position, so as to head off future conflict and integrate them with the rest of the planet.
--[] Technological Uplift: We're not going to close the entire tech gap, but we should make a dent in the most important parts of it, especially general life support - housing, food, medicine, and communications.
--[] Create some kind of United Nations, and other international institutions that can help the nations of Denva avoid conflict and societal decay and decline, including economic and environmental problems.
--[] Establish a system of publishing houses, covering art, science, journalism, and anything else that comes up, to support our efforts. Try to avoid stepping on the existing publishing industry too hard while we're at it.
--[] Begin trying to get a handle on the problem of Chaos, and at least setup some kind of a system to keep watch for it.
--[] Begin investigating Klyssars nest and get more information on it.
--[] Begin investigating the enclaves and get more information on them, and involve the nations of Denva in this process. We ultimately want them to be as well integrated with Denvan society as is reasonably possible.
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- Location
- USA
[] Plan: Finishing what we started
-[] Insert Alectai's two Diplo actions here
-[] Construction: (3,250 BP)
--[] 3x Spaceports (300 BP, 75 CP)
--[] 30x Shuttles (600 BP, 150 CP)
--[] 1x Small Shipyard (1000 void BP, 50 CP)
--[] Tiny system monitor (950 void BP, 50 CP)
--[] Klyssa Station Dig Supplies (250 BP, given to the Mechanicus and shipped using their infrastructure this turn)
--[] Incentive Budget for the Summit and Rent (150 BP)
-[] Research (200 + 25 RP)
--[] Secrets of the Machine Spirits (165 RP)
--[] Combat Neural Implants (35+ 25 Anexa RP)
-[] [ANEXA] Research - Combat Neural Implants
-[] [VICTAN] Communication - We're doing a lot of that this turn I notice, and I don't think we're being very subtle about it.
-[] Insert Alectai's two Diplo actions here
-[] Construction: (3,250 BP)
--[] 3x Spaceports (300 BP, 75 CP)
--[] 30x Shuttles (600 BP, 150 CP)
--[] 1x Small Shipyard (1000 void BP, 50 CP)
--[] Tiny system monitor (950 void BP, 50 CP)
--[] Klyssa Station Dig Supplies (250 BP, given to the Mechanicus and shipped using their infrastructure this turn)
--[] Incentive Budget for the Summit and Rent (150 BP)
-[] Research (200 + 25 RP)
--[] Secrets of the Machine Spirits (165 RP)
--[] Combat Neural Implants (35+ 25 Anexa RP)
-[] [ANEXA] Research - Combat Neural Implants
-[] [VICTAN] Communication - We're doing a lot of that this turn I notice, and I don't think we're being very subtle about it.
Angle
Release Candidate Enby
- Location
- Colorado, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them/Theirs/Comrade
I think that research was posted and then went missing, should be able to find it if you dig through the thread a bit.
See here. Also, a ctrl-F for megastructures on tech page would have found it.
In this case, you. It would be a robotic destroyer that costs CP. That's the 'crew'.
It's ok, though I think I would prefer a bit more direction, and for you to split out the diplomacy actions into individual thrusts for the purposes of rolls and choosing where the Victan bonus is. Probably half on mechanicus, half on the nations of Denva. They can certainly co-reference each other.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Nah. Dice risk is dice risk, we pay it now or later. Narratively, I want to bond with Anexa by learning - or struggling to learn - about biology together, after that last setback.
This is almost exactly, perfectly backwards. Iterating on a house built on sand is how you save time making a collapsed house.
The purpose of foundational knowledge is to provide the context to know what is and is not a waste of time and effort - that's why the etymology is drawn from construction where the same is true of how to avoid wasting time having to rebuild because your first attempt was unsound.
I am, for personal context, a software developer. I have for over a decade had routine, regular experience with the difference in research and development for making a solution to a problem with an without the foundational knowledge of what you're working with - whether that's programming knowledge or domain-specific knowledge. If you don't study both beforehand, you can go to stack overflow and get answers to questions other people have asked before and maybe cobble together something that does a thing. But for any non-trivial problem that someone else hasn't offered an exact answer to before, you will spend way more time, for a result you will almost certainly have to do redo later if your program is going to be expanded or reused at all later.
Because without the foundational knowledge, you don't even know the best questions to ask. You don't have the context to know the shortcomings of a given solution, because all you see is whether or not it does the thing you're trying to do - not the broader implications of how it's done, because you don't have broader knowledge to draw any implication from.
And to say this goes double for engineering and medicine - application or research - is a wild understatement. This is common sense - that's why we don't let people without a doctorate be a physician, and why we don't let people yolo major construction. You could teach people to do those things by rote, without the context and breadth of knowledge to ask the right questions and see the broader implications, and for much of history we did. Modern society rightly decided that this was insane and made it illegal.
But that's, you know, general principle. Wet bio in particular isn't even up for debate.
We cannot research psyker biology - and the gene bank chargen operation included a pathway to psyker cloning, there 100% is psyker biology - without first unlocking biology research.
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