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I'm pretty sure they both come with warp understanding. Unless you mean the "politics" of the warp? In which case: we already read the Archenemy files. Which is more than we'd ever discover on our own for ages without.

Nooo, I mean this thing:

-[] The workings of a Void Abacus (200 RP) You have a void abacus. It's pretty complicated, but you also have the manual, and you've always been good at physics. (You're better at using your void abacus, and unlocks the technology to figure out how to manufacture them, half of unlocking research for better warp understanding).

The other half was the basic Psi Shield, which we already got.

Now, lets see. A to-do list:

*Sort out the mechanicus so they're not a problem right now.
*Sort out the mechanicus so they're not a problem in the future.
*Uplift the nations of Denva technologically.
*Harden the nations of Denva against Chaos.
*Make the nations of Denva less prone to mundane societal and institutional decline and infighting.
*Investigate the Psyker Enclaves.
*Investigate Klyssar's Nest.
*Investigate Denva Prime.
*Investigate the gas giant stations.
*Do a thorough system survey.

Did I miss anything? :/

To work on these, I'd like to focus on building a bunch of institutions on Denva. Maybe start with acquiring a publishing house for ourselves, or maybe multiple of them, use that to publish sci-fi and influence the culture. Then work on a system of universities and scientific institutes? And maybe try and organize some kind of united nations style thing...

And spread technology and do technological uplift, and spread institutions for that, too. Oh, and we need some kind of a system of journalism, to keep an eye on everything and make sure it all runs properly? And we still need to figure out how to approach chaos...

Ugh, so, soooo much to do... XD
 
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Too early to reveal ourselves as an AI, IMO. And I'd like better warp understanding before we go poking Psytech, which is behind the void abacus research, and we probaby want better shielding before we get that...

Why do you think it's too early? My thought had been that this is a perfect opportunity to start with a clean slate as we look outward. I think that, given our position, the fallout from the Mechanicus enclaves will be minimal.
 
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Why do you think it's too early? My thought had been that the Mechanicus enclaves already know, so it's an open secret and a perfect opportunity to start with a clean slate as we look outward.

Noooo! If they already knew they would be throwing everything they had at us. Not halfway helping us. And some of the nations of Denva would probably turn on us, too. It would be a clusterfuck. XD
 
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Right. I know there's excitement about nationbuilding, about finally jumping in with both feet into industrial production. However, now that we control the mechanicus and have to turn it away from only learning just enough to make and maintain their technology and towards understanding the actual fundamentals of their fields, there's a piper that needs to be paid and we're out of runway to delay it again.
You reach out and punch her lightly in the shoulder, which makes her jump. "Hey. Stop it. You're good at this. We just did things out of order. We don't know enough biology for this yet. Let's go learn more about that, then come back to this when we understand more about how bodies work, and can put it all together."

She takes a second to respond, but then chuckles and warms up to the idea. "Yeah. Always more to learn. Always improvements to make. We didn't do our background reading. We have time."

"We do."
And that's to start practicing what we preach. Right now, we cannot pass a closed book test on physics or biology to our own satisfaction. We're basically guilty to a degree of the same "tech before science" that we want to beat out of the enclaves, and any effort to actually assist that education will be hindered by us not having a first class personal understanding of what we're educating them on.

Like, all the stuff I've said before about knowing our options and enhancing our must-do's before leaving still apply, but that's future Vita's problem. Reforming the ad mech competently is on our plate right the fuck now.

So that's my red line: Not a single research point should be spent on anything else until Biology is kinda wet (100 RP) and A Study of Physics (150 RP) are done.

I might vote for something that that only does a single research action and so doesn't complete A Study Of Physics, considering even with Anexa we can't finish both it and Bio is Wet on just one action. I think it's reasonable to expect positive narrative impacts from merely having the latter in a mostly complete state.

I might even dare to hope that rolling good on a write-in that tries to task the cogitaire with assisting the research as part of our reforms and maybe it could complete, though I don't have the time to try making such a write-in until this evening, assuming it's even viable.

But nothing else before those two are paid for. Not even shielding or psytech. We can't expect to competently help the not-a-genius-like-anexa enclaves get their shit together before we've done it ourselves.



*phew*


My party pooping hopefully over with, a reaction and some editing suggestions:

After all, the way you prevent recoil on a gun is by adding a rocket engine to the bullet. What if you did something like that for cybernetics to unchain them from the strength of the host body?
Sounds like something where that anti-grav research could come in handy. Really Good Robotics is still hella expensive.

"We were going to talk about cybernetics. I was interested in organ replacements." And you wanted to make combat implants. Are you ready to get started?"
Looks like the quotes got misplaced - either a closing one where it shouldn't be, or a missing opening one.

Meanwhile, your research on cybernetics is going great. The lessons you've learned from redoing the humanization and the heavy combat bots have carried over, and the combat augments are turning out great
Reuse of "great" in the same paragraph is a bit clunky.
 
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@Prime 2.0 it should be noted we are a super-computer with the insight of twenty five thousand years of humans history behind us. We do not need to learn the basics of biology unless we are planning to do something with biology, the information isn't going anywhere. On the other hand something like basic psyker study and the void abacus are relevant to talking to the monasteries which may well have an expiration date. We do not know what is going on in there other than it being one of the most ideologically imperial places on the planet. While they lack the resources to harm us and the astropaths should be long dead so they can't call for helm they might still decide that we are all heretics and that they should shoot themselves or some nonsense if we let them stew for too long.
 
@Prime 2.0 it should be noted we are a super-computer with the insight of twenty five thousand years of humans history behind us. We do not need to learn the basics of biology unless we are planning to do something with biology, the information isn't going anywhere. On the other hand something like basic psyker study and the void abacus are relevant to talking to the monasteries which may well have an expiration date. We do not know what is going on in there other than it being one of the most ideologically imperial places on the planet. While they lack the resources to harm us and the astropaths should be long dead so they can't call for helm they might still decide that we are all heretics and that they should shoot themselves or some nonsense if we let them stew for too long.
We are planning to do something with biology. We're planning to bootstrap the mechanicus's understanding of it from the ground up.

Our ability to do that was just demonstrated as laughable, even working one on one with Vita.
She's getting frustrated, and you're not able to help her. Sure, you can regurgitate the textbooks on demand, but there's a difference between that and having a working understanding of the actual relationships that can tell you what the problem is with the implants, and why they're not fully replicating the organ functions of the poor Grox you snagged to be your guinea pig.
Being a glorified wikipedia search is not sufficient to enact or oversee competent reforms of the mechanicus knowledgebase and scientific rigor.
 
Anyway I think should definitely start with those publishing houses. We want, like, the whole gamut - art, science, journalism, etc, etc, etc. Probably want to sink a couple hundred BP into the endeavor. Lets see:

-[] Diplomacy Action: Nation Building.
We want to get the nations of Denva thoroughly on their feet ready to be a safe port for us in a strange and unfamiliar galaxy. To that end, help them tech up and establish a robust and well managed technological framework, with a special focus on communications technologies. Start work on some kind of United Nations, and other international institutions to mediate disputes, coordinate between nations, and generally get the planet on the level where it can play in the galaxy at large, or at a bare minimum within it's own solar system. And, additionally, acquire or create a system of publishing houses, to publish a while range of things - art, especially science fiction, but also actual literal science, and lots and lots of journalism.

That is a good point about science, though. I'd be willing to endorse just going for the fundamentals.

One big question: How, exactly, so we balance things regarding freedom of speech? Like, even IRL we've been receiving lots of lessons about how Free Speech Absolutism is an untenable position, and in a setting with ChAoS that goes even harder. But having a system of censors and restrictions that both does what it's supposed to do, and doesn't do anything it's not supposed to do, is really really hard. I have no idea how we balance that... :/
 
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Right. I know there's excitement about nationbuilding, about finally jumping in with both feet into industrial production. However, now that we control the mechanicus and have to turn it away from only learning just enough to make and maintain their technology and towards understanding the actual fundamentals of their fields, there's a piper that needs to be paid and we're out of runway to delay it again.

And that's to start practicing what we preach. Right now, we cannot pass a closed book test on physics or biology to our own satisfaction. We're basically guilty to a degree of the same "tech before science" that we want to beat out of the enclaves, and any effort to actually assist that education will be hindered by us not having a first class personal understanding of what we're educating them on.

Like, all the stuff I've said before about knowing our options and enhancing our must-do's before leaving still apply, but that's future Vita's problem. Reforming the ad mech competently is on our plate right the fuck now.

So that's my red line: Not a single research point should be spent on anything else until Biology is kinda wet (100 RP) and A Study of Physics (150 RP) are done.

I might vote for something that that only does a single research action and so doesn't complete A Study Of Physics, considering even with Anexa we can't finish both it and Bio is Wet on just one action. I think it's reasonable to expect positive narrative impacts from merely having the latter in a mostly complete state.

I might even dare to hope that rolling good on a write-in that tries to task the cogitaire with assisting the research as part of our reforms and maybe it could complete, though I don't have the time to try making such a write-in until this evening, assuming it's even viable.

But nothing else before those two are paid for. Not even shielding or psytech. We can't expect to competently help the not-a-genius-like-anexa enclaves get their shit together before we've done it ourselves.



*phew*


My party pooping hopefully over with, a reaction and some editing suggestions:


Sounds like something where that anti-grav research could come in handy. Really Good Robotics is still hella expensive.


Looks like the quotes got misplaced - either a closing one where it shouldn't be, or a missing opening one.


Reuse of "great" in the same paragraph is a bit clunky.
You're right. But we also need to convince them of the necessity before they'll even be willing to accept it. That's what my idea was geared towards.
Now, we can also do the restructuring first and then prove it... But that way lies lingering resentment. Mine will squash all credibility first.

I'm fine with your idea, too. Though. Could very well be better. It would probably mean invoking the nations of Denva for the transformation. Which would probably be a good thing.
 
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This is probably at just 100x now?
Fixed.

That is a not insignificant amount of materials.

Do the envlaves have any lift capacity we know control, or do we pay all of ot out of our own pocket?
Fulfilling that material burden is the primary purpose of the Mechanicus across Denva. In some ways it's kind of hilarious that you can do it with less than 10% of your overall capacity.

The enclaves have some lift capacity, but it won't work for construction in space - it's not set up to work well with your production. However, they will suffice to transport the 250 BP necessary to keep the Klyssar station expedition going.

If it was exact number with the infantry bots, then it would be 50 bots per CP. So It would look something more like this.

1000 Light infantry bots (200 CP)
1800 Light humanized infantry bots (360 CP)
500 Medium humanized Infantry Bots (100 CP)
600 Heavy humanized Infantry Bots with Machine Spirit Jammers (120 CP)

And shouldn't there be only a hundred missiles in space? We did use a hundred to blow up the killsats.

Also, can we please focus on leveling up Anexa?! I get it, she can give an extra 25 RP and a trait right now but the dice have not been in our favor! Beside, I'm pretty sure she can only gain a trait on a critical success in research and the odd are not in our favor.
Would it be more accurate? Yes. Would it be more of an accounting headache? Also yes. The reason quests die is usually because they didn't abstract out far enough. So I'm being aggressive in pruning back complexity where I can.

Fixed the missiles thing. Also - if Anexa had rolled the same for her education she would have gotten the same amount of levels, which is zero.

Shame that the Navigator database search didn't get us a rudimentary map... Oh well, that is something that we can get for the next free action.
I read the navigator thing as a "What are Navigators, anyway." Which Vita knows. There were Navigators when she was around, but what she's learned is how political powerful they are now.

This makes sense, though it raises a question: would it be possible to eventually transform our book keeping to a regiment, brigade or division system rather than ordering individual peices of military equipment?
Sounds good to me, I'll let you designate that as a free action during a vote, and probably throw in a small efficiency-of-scale bonus at the cost of it being hard to break up the brigade for separate tasks.

Sounds like something where that anti-grav research could come in handy. Really Good Robotics is still hella expensive.
That's probably behind mobility augments & Minaturized antigrav.

Looks like the quotes got misplaced - either a closing one where it shouldn't be, or a missing opening one.
Reuse of "great" in the same paragraph is a bit clunky.
Fixed, thanks!
 
I would very much like to recruit a commander or champion for our crew. Too much military work is not really a good fit for Vita.

Some structure that could at least, convincingly pretend to be Mechanicus would be good for making sure Imperium doesn't roll in and just destroys everything, tbh.

I don't think we can do this without servitors, and I don't think anyone is willing to continue sevitorization. So I'd like to keep the potential of Vital pretending to be a magos, but I don't think it's possible on planet.

Now, lets see. A to-do list:

*Sort out the mechanicus so they're not a problem right now.
*Sort out the mechanicus so they're not a problem in the future.
*Uplift the nations of Denva technologically.
*Harden the nations of Denva against Chaos.
*Make the nations of Denva less prone to mundane societal and institutional decline and infighting.
*Investigate the Psyker Enclaves.
*Investigate Klyssar's Nest.
*Investigate Denva Prime.
*Investigate the gas giant stations.
*Do a thorough system survey.

Good list. I like that you don't put specific build or research stuff on here- those should be means to these ends, not end in and of themselves.

So that's my red line: Not a single research point should be spent on anything else until Biology is kinda wet (100 RP) and A Study of Physics (150 RP) are done.

Nope. Strong disagree. We are building up to go into space, not building up to have a fitted world to start expanding from. Basic research can be done during the travel time between systems, not as a pre-requisite to getting off planet.

We are planning to do something with biology. We're planning to bootstrap the mechanicus's understanding of it from the ground up.

Why though? This is unrelated to any of our goals, and it's someone they can do themselves with what we are going to leave behind.
 
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That is a not insignificant amount of materials.

Do the envlaves have any lift capacity we know control, or do we pay all of ot out of our own pocket?
That is something I would like to know, plus if we can use some of the manufacturing of Aevon and the Enclaves and collaborate on research so things can go by faster.
Fundamentally if the Imperium shows up it is war. They're literally mass-murdering Fascists. Here's a planet that doesn't provide ruinous, self-destructive Tithes and doesn't spend half its time fighting Chaos and half its time making Chaos stronger (half of the fighting Chaos also makes Chaos stronger.)
Precisely why we should help Denva be as prepared as possible and hold nothing back from them. If they're found they're gonna get their shit rocked anyway, so might as well make sure they stand as much of a chance as possible at surviving.
 
Fulfilling that material burden is the primary purpose of the Mechanicus across Denva. In some ways it's kind of hilarious that you can do it with less than 10% of your overall capacity.

The enclaves have some lift capacity, but it won't work for construction in space - it's not set up to work well with your production. However, they will suffice to transport the 250 BP necessary to keep the Klyssar station expedition going.
Sweet, Plan Destroyer is a go.
 
We do need to take into account that the Mechanicus, has not, in fact been fully converted to our side. There are a lot of people who are pretty hesistant about it, and instant building an entire destroyer, on our lonesome, well, that could freak some people out.
 
Anyway, we've used the stick, now it's time for the carrot, plan cooking, just need to check if my soda supply is up to the challenge.
 
One big question: How, exactly, so we balance things regarding freedom of speech? Like, even IRL we've been receiving lots of lessons about how Free Speech Absolutism is an untenable position, and in a setting with ChAoS that goes even harder. But having a system of censors and restrictions that both does what it's supposed to do, and doesn't do anything it's not supposed to do, is really really hard. I have no idea how we balance that... :/
To the extent we can, we want them to be able to think for themselves and set the on a path to grow stronger and self-sufficient while we're gone so that our friendly port in an unfriendly galaxy is still there when we get back - and ideally, able to contribute their own science and technology advances to ours.

Cooperative civilizations doing their own tech rolls, or adding bonuses to ours is a confirmed mechanic after all.
Nope. Strong disagree. We are building up to go into space, not building up to have a fitted world to start expanding from. Basic research can be done during the travel time between systems, not as a pre-requisite to getting off planet.
The basic research in my red line is what lets us know what the hell we're doing for building stuff to get off planet and the biological side of psyker research. I've been saying that for multiple turns now, it hasn't stopped being true.

I also need you to understand that if we do not pluck the low hanging fruits of making Secondus self sufficient and able to grow on its own that it risks being chewed up and spit out by all the gribblies our char gen put in their neighborhood.
Why though? This is unrelated to any of our goals, and it's someone they can do themselves with what we are going to leave behind.
But, more pressingly in the short term, there is the need for our way of doing things to prove itself against the old ways in the mechanicus's day to day lives, and that needs a better effort than what produced organ replacements so inferior to admech standard that they eventually cause the patient's untimely death.

Everyone in the ad mech will be jockeying and working to prove their worth among themselves, and as ever, the disadvantage of science in rhetoric and reputation is that you need a lot of baseline knowledge before it can prove itself against "just knowing what you need to know to do your job and live your life".

Any time a techpriest trying to work from first principles makes something clearly inferior - like what we did - to what a traditionalist can do by rote based on faulty knowledge, either:
  • We or someone else shits out a good explanation and counterexample to discredit the comparison
  • We or our delegates use force or the implied threat of force to silence the person bringing up the comparison, undermining our efforts to deprogram the culture of facism and totalitarianism.
  • We do nothing to discredit the comparison, undermining our efforts to deprogram the cargo cult culture of "you only need to know how, not why".
This will play out thousands of times. It will be harder than helping Anexa was, and every time we or the people we taught fail such an interaction, more work is created to make sure the new world order we're trying to build doesn't hamstring itself as soon as we're gone.

This basic research is what we need to put Secondus on the right footing to survive, it's what we need to deprogram the mechanicus, and it's what we need to set ourselves up for success during our departure.

Foundation is everything. We should not neglect it.
 
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One big question: How, exactly, so we balance things regarding freedom of speech? Like, even IRL we've been receiving lots of lessons about how Free Speech Absolutism is an untenable position, and in a setting with ChAoS that goes even harder. But having a system of censors and restrictions that both does what it's supposed to do, and doesn't do anything it's not supposed to do, is really really hard. I have no idea how we balance that... :/

I believe that is Mr. None of Our Business along with his wife Mrs Not Our Skill-set. The Denvans have a democracy which means they must have some kind of free speech norms that worked for them over the last two centuries. Use those.
 
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I believe that is Mr. None of Our Business along with his wife Not MRS Our Skill-set. The Denvans have a democracy which means they must have some kind of free speech norms that worked for them over the last two centuries. Use those.

We just changed the entire balance of their planet, though, and we're going to keep doing so. What works for a bunch of repressed democracies trying to wriggle out from beneath the jackboots of the tech cultists isn't going to cut it for a bunch of democracies undergoing rapid technological advancement - and they need to undergo rapid technological advancement or they're all going to get eaten by tyranids or stomped by orkz or something. And I think they'll have a much better time with that if we get involved.

I would also like to caution against the whole "We can fuck off to space and not worry about any of this." Space is full of nasty shit. There are precious few factions that are going to be anywhere near as friendly with us as the Denvans, and we may never meet any of them. We should appreciate what we've got - and that means sticking around to make sure these people have their feet under them before we go poking around.

We can still investigate the stuff in system though. There should be plenty there to keep us occupied for 10-15 turns or so.
 
The basic research in my red line is what lets us know what the hell we're doing for building stuff to get off planet and the biological side of psyker research. I've been saying that for multiple turns now, it hasn't stopped being true.

I think the difference is that you are assuming it will be necessary at some point and so insist on doing it before we start; I'm assuming the construction process will surface what we actually need to know and making assumptions before that point is going to lead to a lot of wasted efforts.

We aren't going to know what we need bio for until we do psyker, we aren't going to know what we need physics for until we start building spaceships.

I believe in iteration, not being perfectly ready before beginning.

I also need you to understand that if we do not pluck the low hanging fruits of making Secondus self sufficient and able to grow on its own that it risks being chewed up and spit out by all the gribblies our char gen put in their neighborhood.

We are leaving them manufacturing facilities. A lot of them. If that isn't enough to make them self-sufficient along with blueprints and educational courses, then we are going to need to leave then a home defense fleet to really change the calculus. Plus, that manufacturing is protected by a void shield, orbital defense weaponry, and quite a lot of anti-air.

I don't think we need to do any more with than we have to meet this objective.

But, more pressingly in the short term, there is the need for our way of doing things to prove itself against the old ways in the mechanicus's day to day lives, and that needs a better effort than what produced organ replacements so inferior to admech standard that they eventually cause the patient's untimely death.

Sure. And we can build brand new armies of robots with plasma weaponry from literal waste rock. We don't need to demonstrate omni-competence, we've already demonstrated we are far ahead of them in most areas.

It would be darkly hilarious though if the best counterargument that the admech loyalists have to discredit is is "We are better at the meat stuff!"
 
I believe that is Mr. None of Our Business along with his wife Mrs Not Our Skill-set. The Denvans have a democracy which means they must have some kind of free speech norms that worked for them over the last two centuries. Use those.
I disagree we just made a mess of this world, we have at least some responsibility with helping it.
 
We just changed the entire balance of their planet, though, and we're going to keep doing so. What works for a bunch of repressed democracies trying to wriggle out from beneath the jackboots of the tech cultists isn't going to cut it for a bunch of democracies undergoing rapid technological advancement - and they need to undergo rapid technological advancement or they're all going to get eaten by tyranids or stomped by orkz or something. And I think they'll have a much better time with that if we get involved.

I would also like to caution against the whole "We can fuck off to space and not worry about any of this." Space is full of nasty shit. There are precious few factions that are going to be anywhere near as friendly with us as the Denvans, and we may never meet any of them. We should appreciate what we've got - and that means sticking around to make sure these people have their feet under them before we go poking around.

We can still investigate the stuff in system though. There should be plenty there to keep us occupied for 10-15 turns or so.

Then they can work it out themselves. I am weary of the super-being from on high dictating moral norms, that never works well, example one: The Emperor.
 
We just changed the entire balance of their planet, though, and we're going to keep doing so. What works for a bunch of repressed democracies trying to wriggle out from beneath the jackboots of the tech cultists isn't going to cut it for a bunch of democracies undergoing rapid technological advancement - and they need to undergo rapid technological advancement or they're all going to get eaten by tyranids or stomped by orkz or something. And I think they'll have a much better time with that if we get involved.
The thing is, we can't really micromanage everyone or really afford to babysit everyone. We can try to push them in the right direction, but we're going to have to trust them to make their own decisions eventually.

You can't want to make a democratic state while trying to go all Big Brother and control everything.
 
Then they can work it out themselves. I am weary of the super-being from on high dictating moral norms, that never works well, example one: The Emperor.

The thing is, we can't really micromanage everyone or really afford to babysit everyone. We can try to push them in the right direction, but we're going to have to trust them to make their own decisions eventually.

Oh I don't think we should dictate from on high, but I think we need to be involved in the process. We can definitely make things easier and let the accomplish more with our help than they will if we leave them to sort it out on their own, and I think we should spend actions helping with that.

You can't want to make a democratic state while trying to go all Big Brother and control everything.

Sure, but you can't make a democratic state, or any kind of state, without controlling *anything*. There needs to be some kind of structure, or you just get a mess - and one less free than you would have with a controlling structure, at that.
 
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Oh, almost forgot to ask this: @Neablis did we get any samples from cybernetics/weapons/etc. from storming the Enclaves? Or was it all destroyed by our use of heavy weapons? Because while the actual knowledge base of the Enclaves here is probably not that impressive, I could see the Magi and their Skitarii having potentially more impressive pieces of tech on them.

Anyway, I'm asking if you want to allow us to roll for our loot or something.
 
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