Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

4WheelSword · Mar 13, 2019

thread policy Discussion of politics that does not directly relate to the Quest or to Quest votes are banned from hereon out. This thread policy will be enforced by the Moderation team. Do not ignore it.

Whenyouseeyou · May 21, 2020

It probably wont the world does know of the name M.A.D. so they Won't besides the other nation have nukes

BoredStudent1414 · May 21, 2020

DanganMachin said:
I don't know why but having an exclave makes me feel uneasy for some reason...

That is a good point. A vital part of the Commonwealth (Detroit-Windsor and Toledo) has no land connection to the capital and is only connected by Lake Michigan and Lake Huron. This water connection is only possible through port basing rights agreements with polities around the Straits of Mackinac and this connection is iced over during winter. If our navy was ever destroyed or outmatched or the Victorians manage to convince the local polities to end the basing rights agreement, we would be in trouble. The Victorians could cut off Detroit-Windsor and Toledo. Getting the conservative revivalists of Fort Wayne to join the Commonwealth or at least friendly relations with them would help secure most of the land needed for a land connection between Chicago and Toledo.

We need to ensure that the Commonwealth remains the naval power on the Great Lakes. We cannot assume that Victoria will continue to neglect their navy nor should we take our basing rights agreements for granted. We were lucky none of our ships were destroyed in the war and we probably will not so lucky next time. We need more Des Plaines-class vessels for the expanded patrol regions and to build a reserve. We need a better vessel for Lake combat as well. To challenge our navy, Victoria could get functional AGMs next time or mass produce a copy of the Des Plaines which they should be able to make with their tech base to start to build a proper Victorian navy to fight us.

I do not think that we can realistically defend Toronto and Hamilton from Victorian attack. They're too close to Victoria and the Victorians could overrun them before we could respond. Basing an army in these cities would severely stretch our supplies and be considered an unacceptably close dagger pointed at Victoria. I think they will fall back into the Victorian sphere and we shouldn't hold it against them or Victoria will destroy them because they allowed our army free passage during Operation Foil and the treaty did not include a non-intervention clause in it.

EBR · May 21, 2020

Sir_Travelsalot said:
You're missing the Families, they're in Yellowstone.

What are their cannon borders?

AKuz said:
Helena government Thicc

Dummy thicc

Cyberphilosipher said:
MY Eyes...They've SEEN GLORY!!

Danke!

California isn't doing too bad themselves...

I love you California
You're the greatest state of all
I love you in the winter, summer, spring,
and in the fall!

I love your fertile valleys
Your dear mountains I adore
I love your grand old ocean
And I love her rugged shore!

Whenyouseeyou said:
*sees the commonwealth* holy Sh*****t

Damn straight!

DanganMachin said:
I don't know why but having an exclave makes me feel uneasy for some reason...

I agree! We must freedomize a land connection twixt the Commonwealth proper and the Detroit/Toledo exclave.

uju32 said:
Nice work.

Thank you!

Sir_Travelsalot · May 21, 2020

EBR said:
What are their cannon borders?

It's a bit in flux at the moment. My original plan, which hinged on The Long March being canon, was to have the territory beyond Yellowstone snake along Idaho Falls and Pocatello, stopping at the west in Twin Falls, where it dips south until Jackpot, which is right on the Nevada border.

Since that isn't happening, I'm thinking the Mountain States Provisional League will be a rough bulging triangle drawn between Yellowstone, Idaho Falls and Riverton.

Whenyouseeyou · May 21, 2020

proaganda poster in the future

Lets unite to the united state of America

Pyro Hawk · May 21, 2020

EBR said:
FEAST THINE EYES

Victoria Must Fall I

sta.sh

EDIT: Hold up a sec.

EDIT the Second: There we go! Picture working. I have completed THE MAP!

EBR, you made an error. Because unless Poptart's told you that the situation's changed, this map is using the 'old' version of the Farmer's Federation of Dakota, rather than the corrected version you put up here:

EBR said:
Alright, here's what I've got thus far. I did take a few liberties with the borders of the NCR and Japanese North America the weird thing between JNA and the Helena Government is still TBD. I hope said liberties are okay, following a straight line for those sections of the CA-NV border felt weird. I can change it if necessary. The Farmers Federation of Dakota has been extended and widened, and the co-capitals of Bismarck and Sioux City are shown.

The full map may be accessed at this link; Victoria Must Fall I

The Dakotas, Nebraska, Montana, Idaho, Oregon, Washington, California, Nevada, Arizona, and Oklahoma have been completed.

Now, I know it's been mentioned that the Federation is likely to explode sometime in the next two or three years, but as far as we know it hasn't happened yet. I figure that you just forgot to transfer the update across to your 'final copy' once you'd done it, or you accidentally loaded up an older version of the map.

That said, absolutely brilliant to see and I can't 'wait' for us to know what the situation is going to end up like once the new states start exploding across the map with Victoria's... distraction.

aceraptor · May 21, 2020

Cyberphilosipher said:
MY Eyes...They've SEEN GLORY!!

California isn't doing too bad themselves...

Edit:They seem to have dealt with Caeser's Leigion this time.

California's big long term problem other than Russia is the fact that the NCR is basically a occupying power over various bits of territory due to being used as Russia's bully boys over the western portion of the former United States. It has a sizable amount of population its holding onto that's restive and hostile to the NCR.

Solving the situation won't be pretty nor simple.

EBR · May 21, 2020

Sir_Travelsalot said:
It's a bit in flux at the moment. My original plan, which hinged on The Long March being canon, was to have the territory beyond Yellowstone snake along Idaho Falls and Pocatello, stopping at the west in Twin Falls, where it dips south until Jackpot, which is right on the Nevada border.

Since that isn't happening, I'm thinking the Mountain States Provisional League will be a rough bulging triangle drawn between Yellowstone, Idaho Falls and Riverton.

The moment I get confirmation on that from @PoptartProdigy

Pyro Hawk said:
EBR, you made an error. Because unless Poptart's told you that the situation's changed, this map is using the 'old' version of the Farmer's Federation of Dakota, rather than the corrected version you put up here:

Now, I know it's been mentioned that the Federation is likely to explode sometime in the next two or three years, but as far as we know it hasn't happened yet. I figure that you just forgot to transfer the update across to your 'final copy' once you'd done it, or you accidentally loaded up an older version of the map.

You're absolutely right. I had to revert to an older version of the map at one point, and while I redid everything else I must have forgotten to fix the FFD. I'll get right on it.

That said, absolutely brilliant to see and I can't 'wait' for us to know what the situation is going to end up like once the new states start exploding across the map with Victoria's... distraction.

It's going to be fun.

Taut_Templar · May 22, 2020

EBR said:
FEAST THINE EYES

IT'S GLORIOUS HOLY SHIT

Nice job, man! I can't wait to see all those blank spots on the map filled up as the lore is further elaborated on, and with Victoria gone Revivalists start popping up like gophers. It's going to be such an amazing clusterfuck.

uju32 · May 22, 2020

aceraptor said:
California's big long term problem other than Russia is the fact that the NCR is basically a occupying power over various bits of territory due to being used as Russia's bully boys over the western portion of the former United States. It has a sizable amount of population its holding onto that's restive and hostile to the NCR.

Solving the situation won't be pretty nor simple.

Look at the map, and then compare with the actual real life population of the applicable states.

California is ~39.5 million; Nevada is 3 million, and Arizona is 7.2 million. California is occupying a lot of low density territory out there, with the populations clustered around a couple cities. With the benefit of forty years of population growth and migration from both Mexico and Japanese-occupied territory, the disparity will be even more stark.

Nevada pretty much would only have survived with Cali intervening to maintain infrastructure there in the Las Vegas urban area.
And the portions of unoccupied Arizona would be reliant on Cali for manufactured goods and imports.

Honestly, the major risk to California here(besides Russia and Japan) is from within.
Not so much Russian sympathizers;there will be some, but if they were a significant risk, their rebellion would never have gotten off the ground. No, the existential threat is the measures they will have taken to survive forty years under Russian dominion and still remain operational.

You're looking at a national security apparatus that will have had to root itself deep for decades, and beyond the reach of political interference and Russian bughunts. One that was resilient enough to survive the really Bad Times, and autonomous enough to keep the faith through several decades of persecution.

Will those intelligence officers and soldiers, bureaucrats and executives now meekly hand over power to civilian authority because the Russians are gone? Or will they keep second-guessing the government?

Few things as dangerous for a nation as a situation where it's soldiers and spies are essentially off the leash and deciding how to operate; you risk them identifying legitimate parts of the body politic as dangers, and to attack them.
Like an autoimmune disease.

Look at 1970s South America for some examples of just where that shit could go.

Taut_Templar · May 22, 2020

uju32 said:
Will those intelligence officers and soldiers, bureaucrats and executives now meekly hand over power to civilian authority because the Russians are gone? Or will they keep second-guessing the government?

Few things as dangerous for a nation as a situation where it's soldiers and spies are essentially off the leash and deciding how to operate; you risk them identifying legitimate parts of the body politic as dangers, and to attack them.
Like an autoimmune disease.

Look at 1970s South America for some examples of just where that shit could go.

Hopefully speaking, being incorporated into a greater American nation will decrease the power and autonomy such an organization would hypothetically wield.

uju32 · May 22, 2020

EBR said:
FEAST THINE EYES

Victoria Must Fall I

sta.sh

EDIT: Hold up a sec.

EDIT the Second: There we go! Picture working. I have completed THE MAP!

Additional comment now that I've slept on things.
Note how most of upper Michigan and Wisconsin is disorganized, with no multi-municipality polity outside the ones marked on the map.

It's free real estate for expansion into.
Small parties of diplomats with escorts of anywhere from a company to a battalion of soldiers to avoid "accidents" should probably do a tour of the areas and see who we can get to sign up after the conference.

LonelyWolf999 said:
Hopefully speaking, being incorporated into a greater American nation will decrease the power and autonomy such an organization would hypothetically wield.

The problem is getting them to agree to being incorporated into a greater American nation.
This is what we know OOC of the Cali government.

Corripere said:
As part of my duty bringing Discord quotes in:
The NCR's government:
"
Essentially a beefy executive branch with a subordinate legislature. Elected, but Russia has an unlimited veto on policy. Currently split between Revivalists in the spirit of your own traditionalists, militarists who advocate for a Californian dominion over the unclaimed parts of the Pacific Seaboard, and loyalists who want to keep Russia happy for the time being while waiting for their grip to slacken."

This looks very much like the modern-day Russian federal government, with a legislative arm that's distinctly underarmed .
None of which is particularly accountable to anyone.

I mean, from my PoV, California as it stands is a regional power.
It has a population thats 40 million minimum, and more likely in the 100 million range. It has the land and water to be self-sufficient in agriculture. It builds it's own tanks. It builds its own fourth and fifth generation fighters, engines, electronics and all; theres maybe ten or fifteen countries in the world now capable of building their own fourth generation jet fighters, for reference, or even just building from schematics.

It builds its own tactical missiles, can build it's own cruise missiles, and could build its own ICBMs and satellite launchers given a free hand.
Cali inherited much of the technical expertise of the world's first hyperpower, and has managed to preserve, if not improve on it.

By keeping the rest of western North America down, Russia and Japan have unintentionally done California a favor by arranging things so that the brightest and best in the region will have drained into the most stable country in the region. It's already a credible short to medium-term threat to the Japanese presence in North America, and is probably at least as hard a military target for Russia as Iran currently is for the US.

Given a decade or so, it could well make itself a superpower in its own right, if British Columbia signs up willingly.
Giving up control to a greater American entity after three decades or so of having been controlled by a Russian occupying power is going to be hard for the Cali natsec apparatus.

EDIT
Other quotes of relevance:

Corripere said:
Relevant quote:
"
I was being coy. In the event of the NCR flipping Alex the bird, Russia would quit being coy about giving Victoria toys and just do it directly. Russia doesn't even chamber 7.62 on their standard service rifles anymore."

PoptartProdigy said:
Somebody asked where Victoria gets its gadgets if the NCR stops playing ball, and I jokingly commented that they start using a lot more 7.62x39 ammunition (the USSR's favorite, and the cartridge that spread across the world with their blessing). My follow-up was clarifying that Alexander would stop being coy about his puppets supplying one another and would just do it directly.

More or less confirmation that the Vics are going to get Russian Imperial equipment when they get to rebuilding.

VoidZero said:
Some discord background that help lead to the accord.

"What made the local warlords go, democracy sounds wonderful, i would like to join you?"

PoptartProdigyToday at 7:20 AM
"Hellfire Burns absolutely tearing through the Victorian observers with the fury of ten thousand suns, purging Chicago of them for good, forging an alliance with the civilian leadership of Chicago and wider Illinois, and then the lot of them going ham on talking about the virtues of civilian governance and the health of a stable democracy.
Also, there were plenty who weren't warlords out of malice. Some were just people trying to get by and carve out some peace and quiet amidst the madness. They leaped at the chance to federate with nearby powers, now that Victoria had been fucked off, and democracy was a way to ensure that their people had a voice in the resulting federation.
But for those who were more self-interested, Ron Burns is fucking terrifying."

Ron Burns was terrifying even when all he'd done was kick the various Vic proxy organizations out of the local area.
Now that he's basically immolated the Vic army in a storm of artillery and 120mm cannon fire, I'm not sure if he can be
And I suspect Sara Johnson has inherited some of that after the invasion of Buffalo.

Which might come in handy.
Those quotes very much suggest there is a place for violence, or the implied capability and willingness to exercise it, as well as diplomacy, in our statecraft with some of the successor states we have to deal with. It's best to keep this in mind in the future.

armentho · May 22, 2020

uju32 said:
Additional comment now that I've slept on things.
Note how most of upper Michigan and Wisconsin is disorganized, with no multi-municipality polity outside the ones marked on the map.

It's free real estate for expansion into.
Small parties of diplomats with escorts of anywhere from a company to a battalion of soldiers to avoid "accidents" should probably do a tour of the areas and see who we can get to sign up after the conference.

The problem is getting them to agree to being incorporated into a greater American nation.
This is what we know OOC of the Cali government.
This looks very much like the modern-day Russian federal government, with a legislative arm that's distinctly underarmed .
None of which is particularly accountable to anyone.

I mean, from my PoV, California as it stands is a regional power.
It has a population thats 40 million minimum, and more likely in the 100 million range. It has the land and water to be self-sufficient in agriculture. It builds it's own tanks. It builds its own fourth and fifth generation fighters, engines, electronics and all; theres maybe ten or fifteen countries in the world now capable of building their own fourth generation jet fighters, for reference, or even just building from schematics.

It builds its own tactical missiles, can build it's own cruise missiles, and could build its own ICBMs and satellite launchers given a free hand.
Cali inherited much of the technical expertise of the world's first hyperpower, and has managed to preserve, if not improve on it.

By keeping the rest of western North America down, Russia and Japan have unintentionally done California a favor by arranging things so that the brightest and best in the region will have drained into the most stable country in the region. It's already a credible short to medium-term threat to the Japanese presence in North America, and is probably at least as hard a military target for Russia as Iran currently is for the US.

Given a decade or so, it could well make itself a superpower in its own right, if British Columbia signs up willingly.
Giving up control to a greater American entity after three decades or so of having been controlled by a Russian occupying power is going to be hard for the Cali natsec apparatus.

EDIT
Other quotes of relevance:

More or less confirmation that the Vics are going to get Russian Imperial equipment when they get to rebuilding.

Ron Burns was terrifying even when all he'd done was kick the various Vic proxy organizations out of the local area.
Now that he's basically immolated the Vic army in a storm of artillery and 120mm cannon fire, I'm not sure if he can be
And I suspect Sara Johnson has inherited some of that after the invasion of Buffalo.

Which might come in handy.
Those quotes very much suggest there is a place for violence, or the implied capability and willingness to exercise it, as well as diplomacy, in our statecraft with some of the successor states we have to deal with. It's best to keep this in mind in the future.

carry a big club and a velvet glove at the same time

Taut_Templar · May 22, 2020

uju32 said:
It's free real estate for expansion into.

God, I love that meme.

uju32 said:
Additional comment now that I've slept on things.
Note how most of upper Michigan and Wisconsin is disorganized, with no multi-municipality polity outside the ones marked on the map.

It does bare in mind that the blank spots are as much "we haven't thought of what to put there" as an indication of no large-scale organized polities, so I'd hesitate to start salivating over the free clay.

That being said, there is almost certainly a great deal of genuine 'blank spots' on the map ripe to be federated. Once we've got our economy running, the trade-off of needing to rebuild infrastruture and fight bandits vs. becoming bigger and stronger will absolutely be worth it, and then we'll really be cooking with gas.

uju32 said:
The problem is getting them to agree to being incorporated into a greater American nation.

Hmm. Do you mean said national security apparatus, or the Californians in general?

uju32 said:
Given a decade or so, it could well make itself a superpower in its own right, if British Columbia signs up willingly.

This point is taken, however. I think if California were to become independent today, it'd be the 8th largest economy in the world? Goes to show how crazy strong the US is in general, I suppose, considering Texas is probably up there with it's sister.

Do keep in mind that the Russians undoubtedly know this and are apparently sucking out almost all of the NCR's economic productivity, however, so they'll need a while of independence to get rolling.

uju32 said:
Those quotes very much suggest there is a place for violence, or the implied capability and willingness to exercise it, as well as diplomacy, in our statecraft with some of the successor states we have to deal with. It's best to keep this in mind in the future.

How's the quote go? "Speak softly, and carry a big stick."

uju32 · May 23, 2020

LonelyWolf999 said:
God, I love that meme.

It does bare in mind that the blank spots are as much "we haven't thought of what to put there" as an indication of no large-scale organized polities, so I'd hesitate to start salivating over the free clay.

That being said, there is almost certainly a great deal of genuine 'blank spots' on the map ripe to be federated. Once we've got our economy running, the trade-off of needing to rebuild infrastruture and fight bandits vs. becoming bigger and stronger will absolutely be worth it, and then we'll really be cooking with gas.

Hmm. Do you mean said national security apparatus, or the Californians in general?

This point is taken, however. I think if California were to become independent today, it'd be the 8th largest economy in the world? Goes to show how crazy strong the US is in general, I suppose, considering Texas is probably up there with it's sister.

Do keep in mind that the Russians undoubtedly know this and are apparently sucking out almost all of the NCR's economic productivity, however, so they'll need a while of independence to get rolling.

How's the quote go? "Speak softly, and carry a big stick."

-Fair point.

-Yes, California is an economic monster, with a 2 trillion dollar GDP.
Even assuming that they suffered a 50% drop in per capita GDP due to the Collapse and Russian shenanigans, but then ballooned in population from 40 million to 100 million plus due to both population growth and immigration, you'd still be looking at a 2 trillion dollar plus economy.

Also of note that the NYC metropolitan area has a GDP of ~1.5 trillion.
And pre-Collapse Chicago was the third-richest metro area in the US, after NYC and LA.

List of the United States metropolitan areas by GDP - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

-National security apparatus.
In addition to us knowing there are Revivalists in their govt, there was the canonized omake of demonstrations when we trashed the Vics, so I'm not overly worried about the general population.

But given the known structure of the NCR's government, there will have been times when a genuine Russian sympathizer would have been either chief executive, or in a position of great influence. And the natsec apparatus would have to work around them in the best interests of the nation as they saw it. Or seek to neutralize them, by blackmail or kinetic methods.

That sort of shit is habit forming.

-Oh, I know the Russians know this. But there is only so much you can actually do about it.

Given a critical mass of people and a halfway competent government, things will improve. You can't make use of a starving client, or milk them for profits. And people will not just lie down and die; even with the Vics, the cost of invading the NCR would make eyes water.
Especially if you made them break out the nukes you think they have hidden away.

California started with the knowledge base of a superpower, a trained, motivated population, and an American diaspora to draw on.
Consider how much effort the US has put into sanctioning Iran, and how it hasn't actually prevented steady progress there in a nationstate that started at a much lower level of growth, then fought an eight year war.

Plus, you have to remember: This is Alexei. He is never only playing one game.
Ten to one bet that he uses the implicit threat of holding California's leash tight to keep Japan pliable on pain of NCR interference in Cascadia and British Columbia.

Remember how miserable Afghanistan got for the Soviets when the US and the Arab world started funnelling arms and ammunition to the rebels? Or how Iran ended up in effective control of much of Iraq under the US army's nose?
That, only worse off.

Oh yeah. Regarding our airforce, some new information has come to my attention regarding the USAF:

Exclusive: Unmasking The F-15X, Boeing's F-15C/D Eagle Replacement Fighter

Boeing and the USAF have been in talks for a year and a half about replacing the aging F-15C/D with a brand new advanced Eagle derivative, the F-15X.

www.thedrive.com

F-15X Will Come In Two Variants, And No, It Won't Cost $100M Per Copy

We have new details about the F-15X and the USAF's motivation for making a dramatic institutional shift to procure the proven fighters.

www.thedrive.com

With the help of the company's new AMBER missile carrying racks, the F-15X will be able to carry a whopping 22 air-to-air missiles during a single sortie. Alternatively, it could fly with eight air-to-air missiles and 28 Small Diameter Bombs (SDBs), or up to seven 2,000lb bombs and eight air-to-air missiles. We are talking crazy weapons hauling capabilities here. Keep in mind that the F-15C/D Eagle can carry eight air-to-air missiles currently, and the penultimate Eagle variant that is currently being built, the F-15SA, can carry a dozen.

What the F-15X doesn't include is a high price. The War Zone has learned that Boeing intends to deliver the F-15X at a flyaway cost well below that of an F-35A—which runs about $95M per copy. And this is not just some attempt to grab business and then deliver an aircraft that costs way more than promised. Our sources tell us that Boeing is willing to put their money where their mouth is via offering the F-15X under a fixed priced contract. In other words, whatever the jets actually end up costing, the Pentagon will pay a fixed price—Boeing would have to eat any overages.

Even if the F-15X is cheaper than an F-35 and ends up being closer in price to a late-block Super Hornet (around $65M), the money will have to come from somewhere to acquire the fleet. But spending money now to acquire F-15Xs may actually save money in the long run. The USAF already intended to upgrade its F-15C/D fleet so that it could remain viable into the 2030s and possibly well beyond. Doing so would cost many millions of dollars per jet, especially if those aircraft end up needing new wings in the coming decade, which according to most accounts, they will. And then you still have an airplane that is in the back-half of its service life and costs more to keep in the air than a totally fresh jet.

The F-15X will have a 20,000 hour service life. Yes, you read that right, 20,000 hours—pretty much three times that of most fighters being produced around the globe. As such, a new F-15X can serve for roughly 80 years. When you spread the cost of the jet over all that flight time, it does appear to be a comparative bargain.

In addition, our sources tell us that F-15X cost-per-flight-hour has been deeply investigated both by Boeing and by third parties by leveraging metrics from legacy F-15 operations and those of late-model Strike Eagle derivatives and even other fighters in the USAF's inventory. The final figure is said to be around $27,000 per flight hour. This is far less than the aging F-15C/D's hourly operating cost (about $42,000 per hour) and about $6,000 more than what the USAF is paying to fly their largely middle-aged F-16 fleet today.

The big question then is how much will these jets cost? Our sources familiar with the discussions say they will cost "less than an F-35 is ever forecast to cost, best case," let alone what it is priced at now. This indicates that Boeing is going to cut the USAF one hell of a deal on these jets, which will help keep the F-15 production line open and Boeing's historic St. Louis plant building fighters well into the latter half of the next decade. This assessment is based on the Office of Cost Assessment and Program Evaluation's (CAPE) numbers, not just some blue sky pitch from Boeing.

These numbers are not projected from hypothetical notions or the dreams of consistently large buys materializing down the line, they take into account hard data from aircraft already being rolled off the production line and flying around the globe. This is the same for the F-15X's projected cost per flight hour that will be spread across the airframe's whopping 20,000-hour design life. For reference, most tactical fighters have a design life of around 8,000 hours.

Yes, that suggests that a F-15X built in 2020 would theoretically still be flyable in 2100.

For reference, the latest FY 2020 contract for Flight III SuperHornets (semi-stealthy, carrier-capable) costs the US Navy roughly 51 million dollars per plane and around 18,000 dollars per flight hour. Flyaway costs for the F-35A as of 2019 contract prices were given as 82.4 million, 79.2 million and 77.9 million over three consecutive batches. It cost 44,000 dollars per hour of flight time in FY2018. The F-16V Viper had a cost of ~70 million in a FY2019 contract to supply 16 fighters to Bahrain.

And I will note that the F-15 and F-16 both use the same GE F110 and PW F100 engine options for logistic commonality.
I hereby propose we buy mooch some secondhand F-15Xs off Sister Cali at the first opportunity, assuming we can't get new.
At least 50, but preferably 100, to support a main force of around 200 F-16s + drones.

Taut_Templar · May 23, 2020

uju32 said:
-Yes, California is an economic monster, with a 2 trillion dollar GDP.
Even assuming that they suffered a 50% drop in per capita GDP due to the Collapse and Russian shenanigans, but then ballooned in population from 40 million to 100 million plus due to both population growth and immigration, you'd still be looking at a 2 trillion dollar plus economy.

Also of note that the NYC metropolitan area has a GDP of ~1.5 trillion.
And pre-Collapse Chicago was the third-richest metro area in the US, after NYC and LA.

I'd noticed that the big three Revivalist Factions - the Commonwealth, New California Republic, and New York - are all based out of the three biggest cities in the US - that being New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago. This is probably not a coincidence, and makes Miami the odd duck out once again.

uju32 said:
Yes, that suggests that a F-15X built in 2020 would theoretically still be flyable in 2100.

Say what you will about the American military, you can make some amazing shit when your operational budget is Yes.

uju32 · May 23, 2020

LonelyWolf999 said:
I'd noticed that the big three Revivalist Factions - the Commonwealth, New California Republic, and New York - are all based out of the three biggest cities in the US - that being New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago. This is probably not a coincidence, and makes Miami the odd duck out once again.

Miami is no 12, so not that far down the list.
Still, your point is taken.

LonelyWolf999 said:
Say what you will about the American military, you can make some amazing shit when your operational budget is Yes.

Speaking of which:

New Army Laser Could Kill Cruise Missiles - Breaking Defense

Instead of building a 100-kilowatt weapon, the Army now plans to leap straight to 250 or even 300 kW -- which could shoot down much tougher targets.

breakingdefense.com

We are currently here:

U.S. Pacific Fleet on Twitter

“#USSPortland (LPD 27) conducts Laser Weapon System Demonstrator Test in Pacific: https://t.co/zZJglgDIcf @USNavy @USNavyResearch #NavyLethality https://t.co/K8xtcEWiRz”

twitter.com

That's a video of a 150kw laser being fired off the USS Portland to kill a drone earlier this week; the red tint is a filter to make the laser visible.
Laser point defence is a RL thing now on RL naval ships with the power generation to spare.
Something to keep in mind when building a navy and IADS.

Mazeka · May 24, 2020

What assets does Victoria have on the Atlantic coast, Long Island Sound in particular?

uju32 · May 24, 2020

Mazeka said:
What assets does Victoria have on the Atlantic coast, Long Island Sound in particular?

Nada.
The Vics have an institutional contempt for naval warfare.
They have never had the interest or invested the resources in a navy; the boats we saw on the lakes had their heaviest weapons being deck mortars.

We destroyed their navy the first time at Buffalo.
They then proceeded to strip everything and everyone on the Atlantic coast, pad it out with conscripted seamen and the like, then send them to Leamington. Where we killed them the second time.

All that's left on the Atlantic coast is a fresh group of conscripts in civilian boats carrying light infantry weapons.
There were also (allegedly) some old US tanks buried in the ground as impromptu shore defense batteries; as you can surmise, after forty years of being buried, their military utility for anything is basically nil.

Mazeka · May 25, 2020

Hmm...

In that case, how much was NYC able to get away with in the demilitarization agreements in regards to the Coast Guard?

Hell, how much of the Coast Guard managed to make it to FCNY for integration?

BoredStudent1414 · May 25, 2020

"And here comes in the question whether it is better to be loved rather than feared, or feared rather than loved. It might perhaps be answered that we should wish to be both; but since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved."
"Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred; because he can endure very well being feared whilst he is not hated." -The Prince

The Prince argues that it is safer to be feared than loved because love is fickle and easily lost when hardship strikes but fear is not so easily lost. However, a ruler is in trouble if they become more hated than feared. Its up to you if you agree with Machiavelli but I think the ideas of fear, love, and hatred are a good place to start discussing the place of the Commonwealth, Victoria, and the smaller polities of the Midwest.

Victoria has long dominated the Midwest mainly through fear. They watch the polities for any sign of opposition to Victoria or attempts to rebuild industry with their "aid workers." If they find anything, the Inquisitors send word back to Victoria. The Victorians will sent out their army to slaughter the troublemakers and pillage the local area to frighten people back into line. They sometimes destroy entire cities to make an example to the entire country.
The Victorians were very effective at spreading fear to the point that many people have a superstitious fear of Victorians. Of course, these acts also provoked great hatred for Victoria as people do not like having their families, friends, and fellow citizens slaughtered but the Victorian military ensured that Victoria has more feared than hated. While Victoria did provide aid to some client states, the relationship was still based on fear above all. With the destruction of most of the Victorian military, Victoria remains greatly feared as one or two defeats does not erase memories of Victoria's fury but people might begin to hate Victoria than they fear it.

What about the Commonwealth? It is a bit harder to tell. When the CFC first sprung into existence, it was after a bloody purge of the Victorian observers and targeted violence which an expansionist state suddenly formed caused the neighbors to fear the CFC. Under Burns, the CFC was busy with other things and had no time for general diplomacy while Victoria fanned the flames of hatred against the CFC in the Midwest. Johnson's Defender of the Midwest prevented the neighborhood from completely turning against CFC but not the embargo. The war and treaty has greatly changed things. The war increased the Midwest's fear of the Commonwealth has shown its ability to defeat Victoria at Detroit and Buffalo. The treaty included relation raising clauses such as the war brides clause, artifact clause and most notably the seaway access clause which is considered a titanic PR boost with the promise of trade and economic stabilization. The Commonwealth was able to reduce people's hatred and suspicion of it when Detroit-Windsor and Toledo eagerly seeking membership which shown the CFC isn't as bad as the Victorians painted it. The local conference goal of the CFC is to try to reduce the amount of resentment and hatred toward itself.

Soon, a great battle for influence over the Midwest between the CFC and Victoria will occur.

At first glance, the Commonwealth seems favored to win this battle as the CFC is both feared and loved to some degree while our efforts are reducing how much we are hated. Meanwhile, Victoria's fear factor is reduced while it is very hated. But there are complicating factors. The Midwest's newfound love of the CFC seems very fragile. Much of that good PR would have been very quickly used up if we decided expansion was our goal at the local conference. Additionally without an non-intervention clause, Victoria can militarily intervene outside the Lake Erie and the Upper Great Lakes region without breaking the treaty. Even in these regions, Victoria can still sent threats of slaughter there. If the CFC offers a very favorable trade deal in exchange for friendship to a city state but the Victorians threaten to slaughter the entire population unless they aid Victoria, the city state will side with Victoria unless the CFC can protect the city state as well. The Victorians could easily damage the CFC's image and inspire hatred against it by sending out Victorian soldiers disguised as CFC soldiers to commit some massacres in the Midwest. Additionally, the CFC is an expansionist state which is a threat to the independence of every Midwest polity while Victoria is not. The CFC might decide to never forcibly annex a state but people here seem to have little qualms about enveloping a small state and economically strangling it as its citizens move into the CFC with the promise of a better life which is as dangerous to a small state's independence in the long term as a military invasion. Now, many polities might decide they are better off in the CFC but for states truly determined to remain like the Shawnee kingdom, siding with Victoria might be the only option. Victoria is the devil they know. Also while Victoria is currently weak, they have a bigger base to rebuild, the CFC is partly dependent on irreplaceable assets, and everybody knows Victoria's revenge will be bloody. Our good reputation and notions of being "the good guys" means little without continuing military and industry strength. They might believe the CFC has no staying power. The small polities might take our aid and then switch sides to Victoria to play both sides.

That said, Victoria's efforts to regain its influence will be an uphill one. The CFC basically has free reign over the Midwest until the Victorian Civil War is over. The "aid worker" system and the old web of diplomatic agreements is gone. Victoria has no real way of reducing the amount of hatred against it in a reasonable time span as who would believe Victoria has turned a new leaf and cutting off seaway access will inspire further hatred of Victoria. There is the factor of "whether Victoria's anger tomorrow is worth my artillery barrage today" in Johnson's word. The CFC should prepare to lean more into fear if necessary.

I think the Commonwealth can win the war of influence but we should not think it will be easy or done through nice actions alone. Of course, we should also "do not become what we fight" and avoid doing things that inspire hate against us.

uju32 · May 25, 2020

Mazeka said:
Hmm...
In that case, how much was NYC able to get away with in the demilitarization agreements in regards to the Coast Guard?
Hell, how much of the Coast Guard managed to make it to FCNY for integration?

Its forty miles from Coast Guard Academy in New London, CT to Long Island by water.
It's roughly the same distance from the Naval Submarine base in Groton CT to Long Island.
A lot of trained people would have been able to just jump ship to get away from the crazies.

As for their Coast Guard situation, dunno. Depends on how much attention Alexei was paying to the Vic-FCNY treaty and how much he was willing to leave them. WoG suggests they didn't get away with much on land, so I suspect the same thing on water, because the Russians who negotiated the treaties for Victoria would have been competent.

So the ships probably got trashed or sold or demilitarized and used for civilian use. Or sent to Europe/South America.

There are probably a significant number of newbuild suspiciously large NYPD Water Division, Search and Rescue and Fishery Department ships that are only armed with small arms but came equipped with outlandishly powerful radars, sonars and engines, as well as conspicuously empty spaces for plug-in weapon system modules.

Sir_Travelsalot · May 25, 2020

Mountain States Provisional League

~~-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------~~
Name: Mountain States Provisional League (MSPL)
Flag: A white raven in flight, clutching a lantern and an axe in its talons on a black flag (couldn't find a good image for this and I'm no good at art).
Government Type: Officially a Stateless Society, semi-officially a pseudo-technocracy.
Capital: No official capital, but the Families that are the de facto ruling party are based in what was once Yellowstone National Park.
Territory: Yellowstone, West Yellowstone, St. Anthony, Rexburg, Idaho Falls, Alpine, Jackson, Fort Washakie, Lander, and Riverton.
Leadership: Officially none, semi-officially the heads of the Families direct the MSPL's industrial and military development, who unofficially tend to follow Daniel Curtis and Maria Costello's plans.
State of Relations with the Commonwealth: Principally opposed to the Commonwealth's method of governance, but feel thankful for striking a telling blow against Victoria and surviving. Currently hope they continue to survive and remain the focus of the continent's nation states.
Broad, short-term Objectives: Build up the MSPL's newly made army and industrial base, secure the stability of the MSPL and prepare for expansion into the rest of the Mountain States. Keep tensions between the MSPL and Casper from boiling over to open conflict.

Summary: The Commonwealth's victory over Victoria sparked a great deal of Revivalist sentiment across the North American continent. Some out of hope, many with dreams and designs of vengeance upon the dreaded scourge of countless successor states. Most held some aspiration of improving their own prospects in the post-Collapse United States, now perceived to be free of the looming threat of armies swooping in to destroy what they had built. In this regard, the Families were scarcely different.

Over six months, after news of the battle of Detroit had spread, the Rovers ventured beyond the periphery of Yellowstone, finally doing away with the petty bandit kingdoms that had sprouted amidst the states of Idaho and Wyoming, by and large too nervous of drawing the eyes of Japanese-held Cascadia or the nearer threat of the Lloyd Clique to band together in meaningful resistance. Over the six final months of 2075, the boogeymen of Yellowstone both put an end to and cemented their legend.

The assorted townships and small cities were not given time to wonder over the change in circumstances for long before the Families' envoys arrived before them, speaking of the opportunity presented by the continent's eyes unwaveringly gazing towards the Midwest. An agreement was reached.

In exchange for manpower, materiel and a binding defense pact, the Families would send out their members, well versed in industrial processes and knowledge lost to the vast majority of the continent's populace, to help reestablish an industrial base in the towns that had been lost for all but good in the wake of the Collapse. The Rover Family, their prowess demonstrated to the prospective members of the soon to be Mountain States Provisional League, would be charged to raise the local militias to such a standard in training, discipline, and equipment that they could be called an army in truth.

For now, the MSPL is very much in a perilous state. For all the territory and resources they have claimed, it is a dispersed mass, being dragged into something resembling a nation, for all that saying those words will draw sour looks from members of the Families who overhear such.

While the Lloyd Clique is thus far occupied readying for the internal strife that will erupt with its titular leader's death, and Cascadia concerned with undergoing a second Rainbow Uprising, the most aggravating source of trouble is with the Wyoming National Guard, based in Casper. Understandably concerned with the sudden buzz of activity nearby to their borders, tensions are for the moment stable but rising between the two successor states, as both sides warily look upon the other.
~~-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------~~
And here it is. The Mountain States Provisional League, the summation of my faction.

As always, feedback is welcome.

uju32 · May 25, 2020

BoredStudent1414 said:
Additionally without an non-intervention clause, Victoria can militarily intervene outside the Lake Erie and the Upper Great Lakes region without breaking the treaty. Even in these regions, Victoria can still sent threats of slaughter there. If the CFC offers a very favorable trade deal in exchange for friendship to a city state but the Victorians threaten to slaughter the entire population unless they aid Victoria, the city state will side with Victoria unless the CFC can protect the city state as well

Correction:
Victoria can militarily intervene against neutral states. States that share a defense treaty with the Commonwealth can't be attacked until and unless they are willing to go back to war; it was explicitly their declaration of war on a treaty partner of the Commonwealth that triggered the last conflict.

And they have to also reckon with the Johnson Doctrine, which suggests that military activity in the Midwest will draw in the Commonwealth anyway.

An active campaign of attacking states like that will push more microstates into the arms of the Commonwealth or of FCNY, either as treaty allies or possibly even as signatories to the Commonwealth Accords.
Not really in their interests to do stuff like that before they are ready to go back to war.

Furthermore, they can't go coercing citystates outside of the Commonwealth's reach; they do not have the manpower to fight the Commonwealth and occupy recalcitrant citystates at the same time. Only so many places you can burn.
So they'll have to exercise that dreaded word: Diplomacy.

And not just do what I say or I'll hit you either. They have to offer terms more attractive than the Commonwealth in the immediate Great Lakes area.
Or than FCNY in Pennsylvania, which is likely to be quietly taking advantage of Victoria's preoccupation to expand their influence down the Eastern Seaboard through New Jersey past Philadelphia into Maryland and Delaware.

I mean, consider what a FCNY covert military assistance budget of fifty million euros in surplus small arms and dual-use equipment each year will do to Victoria's ability to operate in PA if they start on that between now and the next war.

These are people they have been running roughshod over for thirty years. Whose neighbors have been shot, whose homes have been looted, whose sisters and friends have been raped and kidnapped. Even the evil bastards in the main have no ideological interest in Retroculture; they might want to be on top but they don't want to be living in Depression-Era conditions.

Victoria's ideology is not the sort to make many friends, and they didnt go out of its way to make many when they were on top.
Not saying it's impossible for Victorian diplomacy. Just that it's a very tough row to hoe.
Very.

BoredStudent1414 said:
The Victorians could easily damage the CFC's image and inspire hatred against it by sending out Victorian soldiers disguised as CFC soldiers to commit some massacres in the Midwest.

Nope.
The Commonwealth has no history of massacres. And no one can move significant numbers of troops unnoticed in the Commonwealth's sphere of influence. Not that they won't try. But trying does not translate into success.

uju32 · May 25, 2020

Sir_Travelsalot said:
As always, feedback is welcome.

Alright:

Sir_Travelsalot said:
Capital: No official capital, but the Families that are the de facto ruling party are based in what was once Yellowstone National Park.
Territory: Yellowstone, West Yellowstone, St. Anthony, Rexburg, Idaho Falls, Alpine, Jackson, Fort Washakie, Lander, and Riverton.
Leadership: Officially none, semi-officially the heads of the Families direct the MSPL's industrial and military development, who unofficially tend to follow Daniel Curtis and Maria Costello's plans.

Over six months, after news of the battle of Detroit had spread, the Rovers ventured beyond the periphery of Yellowstone, finally doing away with the petty bandit kingdoms that had sprouted amidst the states of Idaho and Wyoming,

Straight up implausible. Both the timeframe, the action itself, and the resultant polity.

The Families are what, five thousand people in total, half of them adults? Maybe a couple hundred amateurs with any skill above the level of "shoot out of my window at an attacker?" They don't have the manpower to knock over multiple citystates and hunt down the remnants of their overlords. They don't have the manpower OR the technology to pull that off; homemade technicals notwithstanding.

Or the military training. Or the supplies. Or the ideological drive.

ISIS only managed it in the Middle East because they looted government stores to keep going, drew on foreign resources, and were ideologically committed. A group of people capable of fitting into Yellowstone? With no actual command structure, just some elders that they listen to some or most of the time? Not at all possible.

And frankly, the threat of the Lloyd Clique on their borders would have kept them keeping their head down.
When the local political situation is as unstable as the Lloyd Clique has been described, you try not to draw attention to yourself.
Not go on a conquest spree. And let's be honest, that's how it would be seen by many neutral observers.

EDIT
I mean, consider: A bunch of these cities you mention have more population than you can fit into Yellowstone, and way more skilled people and tools.

Idaho Falls has 62,000 people, with a metro area population thats roughly twice that. Rexburg has a population of around 25,000, and is the site of a Brigham Young university campus, with the technical resources thereof, and is itself around 95% majority Mormon, with everything that implies for their ability to maintain local stockpiles and to call on the resources of the wider LDS church network anchored in Utah.

They will have more preserved information, more skilled technicians, more medical personnel, more small machine shops, more Old Country vehicles that were jury-rigged into tractors or technicals than most anything you were able to haul up into Yellowstone and preserve for three decades.
Your'e not going to lead a bunch of survivalists out of the mountains and make them top dog of the area.

Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

The original N-body Problem

Never wakes up tired.

You must be joking

You must be joking

Never wakes up tired.