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Transposition, or: Ship Happens [Worm/Aoki Hagane no Arpeggio | Arpeggio of Blue Steel]

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So, is there any Canon mention of what happens to the powers of a Cape, if that Cape dies? I guess since she sort of kept the brain intact she may retain her power?
 
SomeoneCrazy said:
The difference between Vicky's injuries and this are pretty extreme, mainly because of the surroundings. This is pre-Bank, pre-Leviathan, pre-9. She was nearly insane by the time Vicky was that hurt, and she was so upset because it was Victoria that was hurt that it pushed her over the edge into at least temporary insanity. She was trying to recreate Vicky following her imagination, instead of her DNA, and it lead to her creating a meat monster.
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The surroundings of Amy's mental state I'll give you, but her limited chances of actually being able to save Tats in this case is something I'm pulling from descriptions of Amy's power limits, which is that for stuff like this it takes her several minutes to do. Her power is generally not as quick as it is depicted in fanon.
 
BungieONI said:
In Brockton you are unlikely to get a response at all, that far out. Not calling them right then so she can focus on rendering aid seems to me to be the correct judgement call and actually has very little to do with "arrogance" @globalwarmth. Not talking to them about it later though is a case of teenage stupid.
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I mean it still is not an ideal reaction.

she has QA as a shard so multitasking a phone call should not have been impossible. Even if there was little chance of help there was some. Arrogance might be too strong a word but how else to say "deep distrust for authorities and overestimation of one's abilities"? I also mention it was just a tiny bit of the overall motivation at the moment, it might not be the main one but on some level " I'm here. I should be enough. no need to bother the rest " was part of the emotional cocktail

edit. plus capes get preferential treatment all the time
 
Lisa: so... im no longer human?
Taylor: of course you are. Your brain is still flesh and blood, but now your practicly immortal. You'll never age or get tired, you can look however you want, almost nothing can hurt you and Coil can never touch you again.
Lisa:... well when you put it like that :D
 
Candesce said:
Here.

The relevant quote:
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Is there any evidence she was ever asked before? Is there any case where her not helping would explicitly lead to death that we know she refused to help?

It seems to me that you took one line that suggests that she might have specific rules for requests, in a conversation during a time when the city was nearly destroyed, and used that to assume she wouldn't heal a dying person brought to her. How could she heal a person she didn't know was in trouble?

Hayateknight said:
You guys also do recall that the bank job happened right? The one where Amy was held hostage by Lisa who Amy apparently knocked out? For some reason, I don't think Amy will be all that happy to fix her.
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Oh, I forgot the bank job had already happened in this story.

I still don't think Amy is cruel enough to kill somebody over that.

BungieONI said:
The surroundings of Amy's mental state I'll give you, but her limited chances of actually being able to save Tats in this case is something I'm pulling from descriptions of Amy's power limits, which is that for stuff like this it takes her several minutes to do. Her power is generally not as quick as it is depicted in fanon.
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Ah, I thought you meant she would have difficulties recreating the body, assuming that Taylor brought the brain to her. But I think you were talking about her getting Lisa in 'near-death, bleeding out, burns everywhere' mode, not 'safely in a jar, unconcious, ready to be put in a body, no time-limit' mode.
 
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SomeoneCrazy said:
Ah, I thought you meant she would have difficulties recreating the body, assuming that Taylor brought the brain to her. But I think you were talking about her getting Lisa in 'near-death, bleeding out, burns everywhere' mode, not 'safely in a jar, unconcious, ready to be put in a body' mode.
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Yeah I meant 'near-death, bleeding out, burns everywhere'. Though when I think about it... even the 'safely in a jar' thing has issues due to Amy's personality which would be, from what I remember in canon, so horrified that she'd probably instantly condemn Taylor and never let it go which would get in the way for a while. Cause that's one of her flaws, quick and permanent judgement of other people.
 
Metallix666 said:
Lisa: so... im no longer human?
Taylor: of course you are. Your brain is still flesh and blood, but now your practicly immortal. You'll never age or get tired, you can look however you want, almost nothing can hurt you and Coil can never touch you again.
Lisa:... well when you put it like that :D
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Organic brains still wear out. There are only so many times human cells can divide before they just .. stop. Having a nanomaterial body won't make Lisa immortal. It will make her ageless right up until she dies.

Just something to keep in mind.
 
SomeoneCrazy said:
Is there any evidence she was ever asked before?
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Are you just going to keep asking for more and more evidence just so you don't have to admit your image of Amy might be wrong?

Because, you know, the idea that nobody has asked Panacea to heal their dying relative before is ludicrous.

And undoubtedly the reason she doesn't take requests is so that she doesn't have to deal with that happening continuously. She doesn't get enough downtime as is.
 
Admittedly I kinda hope Lisa's a little more blase about the whole android thing, just to provide some contrast against Taylor's being horribly torn up about it and her preexisting existential angst. I get that the whole ship-of-Theseus problem is one of the bedrock concepts of the story in general but having two characters mutually reinforcing their angst into a tailspin... maybe not the best move?

I dunno, we'll see where it goes.

Also, could I point out that all y'all speculating on which sexy robot Lisa gets to be are a little creepy? She's barely older than Taylor, my dudes. Throttle it back.
 
The whole idea of getting Panacea to help make Lisa a new body relies on Taylor knowing that this is within Amy's abilities to do so.
While Panacea is known as one of the world's strongest healers, I doubt there's ever been a case like this, and since Amy doesn't advertise her powers as biokinesis but 'healing', regrowing an entire body falls outside the scope of things Taylor would likely expect.
 
ensou said:
The amount of abuse the human body can take before it's absolutely, guaranteed to be unrecoverable (forgoing brain or spinal injuries) is ridiculous from a biological standpoint. The primary reason major injuries kill without treatment isn't the injuries themselves, but the complications that arise from them such as infection, sepsis, gangrene, etc.

Minimum height for semi-submersible oil rigs is about 15m (there's a very nice paper on it. Yes I actually researched this, did you guys think I wouldn't?) and 50ft is cliff-diving height. Survivable by normal humans, easily. An impact like that would cause her mostly-cauterized wounds to tear a bit and an increase in blood loss but not significantly enough (in my opinion) to cause her to bleed out so fast she'd be guaranteed dead at sea.

It's not abuse for the sake of character-pain. It's events that all culminate in a situation that leaves only one option remaining, and getting there realistically takes a lot to do so.
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This is mostly true; humans are the persistence predator. We evolved to be able to follow our food for days, no matter how harsh that was on us, until the food stopped being able to fight becoming food. To that end, the human body can shrug off wounds that are nominally crippling with comparative ease.
Remember kids, Hollywood is a filthy liar. Blood loss can kill in a matter of minutes if it's from the heart or a major vein or artery, and destroying someone's brain is instantly lethal, but pretty much anything else takes quite awhile to properly die from. Since Lisa is presented as mostly intact rather than a charred skeleton, her living for an hour or two isn't too shocking.

ensou said:
The hypocrisy of the entire situation is that Taylor has spent the entire story bemoaning her loss of humanity and her inability to know if she's still Taylor ...and now she's condemned someone else to nearly the same thing, with both being from altruistic intent. She knows it. She realizes it. And she hates it. Because now she understands both sides.
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I am excited by this. I am also excited by the prospect of Robo-Lisa, either as a friend and sympathetic companion, or a fierce arch-enemy out to avenge herself upon Taylor for the loss of her humanity.
The sort of horrors she just suffered aren't the kind to just be handwaved away, and waking up as a human 2.0, let alone as a mad scientist's standard desk ornament? Not gonna do her any favors in the sanity department. Hello wonderful plot-driving conflict. I wonder where you'll take us?

PS: If there isn't proper gibbering at some point because of this, I will be sad. Going from 'Normal person' to 'sopping brisket' to 'IT'S ALIVE' (Or 'EXTERMINATE, EXTERMINATE'), Lisa's allowed a bit of a terrified and insane babble.
 
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Mal-3 said:
I get that the whole ship-of-Theseus problem is one of the bedrock concepts of the story in general but having two characters mutually reinforcing their angst into a tailspin... maybe not the best move?
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There's going to be a twist on that. Lisa won't have to deal with the ship of Theseus problem for... other reasons.
 
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Well THAT was interesting. Watching Taylor attempt to play doctor and succeed at saving Lisa's brain at the expense of everything else was definitely not anything I expected, but I'm certainly not complaining. Pretty in depth look at the internals of the body too, which was a lot more engrossing than one would expect it to be. I can see why you were so eager to post this chapter.
 
Viper5delta said:
Maybe you've considered this already, but there's a difference between a completely healthy trained/experienced cliff diver entering the water in a controlled manner and a heavily injured individual hitting the water like a sack of potatoes. From 50 ft you're talking about going from about 40 mph(roughly 60kph) to zero in a fraction of a second if you impact poorly (which I'm assuming TT did). That's more than enough to break bones and cause problematic levels of internal bleeding. Now it's not into flat out impossible territory, but it is unlikely enough that I have to raise my eyebrow and chalk it up to Author Fiat. Granted, I'm more than willing to do that, because you tell a damn good story.
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Well, people HAVE survived falling thousands of meters, splatting into nothing but solid ground, so while an uncontrolled 15m drop into water is BAD, it's also far from what is survivable.
I also went to school with a guy that survived a fall from a balcony on 7th floor, onto concrete, that's about 20m. No permanent injuries. Despite landing head first... Nothing broken except for the unlucky head though.

Of course, at the same time, there's been people falling from less than 2m that have been instakilled from it. So the potential variation of what is possible is rather on the extreme side.

It's a bit like with how people often make fun of "anime-amnesia" and how it's such a staple story setup, and soooo overused and totally unreal and... Well, then about a decade ago i saw that happen to someone myself, from someone basically falling over backwards from a chair. Person in question didn't lose any skills, but completely lost any notion of who family or friends were, locations got real fuzzy uncertain and own history was a complete blank. That got me to read up on it, and i was amazed to find that amnesia is actually VERY common together with almost any injuries to the head. it's just that in most cases, that's not the immediate problem, or even noticed, so it tends to get overlooked until it doesn't matter, or enough is recovered(sometimes happens, usually at least to some extent, sometimes not, unpredictably) that you wont notice any longer.
 
I don't see the point in arguing about survivability in a story about spacewhales and superhero's.

Taylor is currently a walking mass of nano machines that are rather casually ignoring a good amount of physics.

Lisa surviving the drop and living long enough to be found shouldn't even be close to breaking SOD.

Personally I think it's an interesting development and I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes.
 
Uhdnrt said:
This was the first thing I thought of when I read this scene:
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Holy shit! Is this live action Gunnm aka Battle Angel Alita? *googles it and sees the date set for December*

*high pichted glass breaking squeals of delight*!!!!


Okibruez said:
and humans have been dumping waste into the ocean for decades centuries millennia
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FTFY

On another note, for the persistence hunting we evolved specifically for it. There are no other organisms on this planet with sweat glands and sweating is a much more efficient body cooling method than panting.

Lastly, if Lisa still has organic parts (brain, spine, CNS) she would be a cyborg. Androids are all robot with no bio parts required to actually function.
 
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Candesce said:
Are you just going to keep asking for more and more evidence just so you don't have to admit your image of Amy might be wrong?

Because, you know, the idea that nobody has asked Panacea to heal their dying relative before is ludicrous.

And undoubtedly the reason she doesn't take requests is so that she doesn't have to deal with that happening continuously. She doesn't get enough downtime as is.
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I'm saying that, if they were in the hospital for an extended period of time with inoperable cancer, and they somehow didn't get healed by her, then obviously something went wrong in the paperwork and she didn't get the request, or they refused healing for some reason. She could clear out a cancer ward in a week max, there is no reason to assume that anybody in the Bay has inoperable cancer for longer than a month, after being diagnosed and put on a list.

As for her not getting enough downtime, she feels like she gets too much.

"But I got them anyways, and I got international attention over it. The healer. The girl who could cure cancer with a touch, make someone ten years younger, regrow lost limbs. I'm forced to be a hero. Burdened with this obligation. I couldn't live with myself if I didn't use this power. It's such an opportunity, to save lives."

"But?"

"But at the same time… I can't cure everyone. Even if I go to the hospital every night for two or three hours at a time, there are thousands of other hospitals I can't visit, tens of millions of people who are terminally ill or living in a personal hell where they're paralyzed or in constant pain. These people don't deserve to face that, but I can't help them all. I can't help one percent of them if I put in twenty hours a day."

"You have to focus on what you can do," Gallant told her.

"Sounds easier than it is," Panacea answered, with a touch of bitterness, "Do you understand what it means, to cure some of these people? I feel like every second I take to myself is a second I've failed somehow. For two years, it's been this… pressure. I lie in bed, awake at night, and I can't sleep. So I get up and I go to the hospital in the middle of the night. Go to pediatrics, cure some kids. Go to the ICU, spare some lives… and it's all just blending together. I can't even remember the last few people I saved."
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I'm not saying that she couldn't have refused to help Dennis' father, but it doesn't fit with her motivations. In the same way, helping Lisa in this situation is something she would be morally obligated (by herself) to do. Otherwise she leaves somebody in the worst form of sensory deprivation possible.

Tango said:
The whole idea of getting Panacea to help make Lisa a new body relies on Taylor knowing that this is within Amy's abilities to do so.
While Panacea is known as one of the world's strongest healers, I doubt there's ever been a case like this, and since Amy doesn't advertise her powers as biokinesis but 'healing', regrowing an entire body falls outside the scope of things Taylor would likely expect.
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This is a very good point. Working with a Brain-in-a-jar is more tinkery than healy. Meta-knowledge makes us go 'Amy can fix it!', but Taylor would probably go 'fuck, there aren't any tinkers that can do this'.
 
DW75 said:
Well, people HAVE survived falling thousands of meters, splatting into nothing but solid ground, so while an uncontrolled 15m drop into water is BAD, it's also far from what is survivable.
I also went to school with a guy that survived a fall from a balcony on 7th floor, onto concrete, that's about 20m. No permanent injuries. Despite landing head first... Nothing broken except for the unlucky head though.

Of course, at the same time, there's been people falling from less than 2m that have been instakilled from it. So the potential variation of what is possible is rather on the extreme side.

It's a bit like with how people often make fun of "anime-amnesia" and how it's such a staple story setup, and soooo overused and totally unreal and... Well, then about a decade ago i saw that happen to someone myself, from someone basically falling over backwards from a chair. Person in question didn't lose any skills, but completely lost any notion of who family or friends were, locations got real fuzzy uncertain and own history was a complete blank. That got me to read up on it, and i was amazed to find that amnesia is actually VERY common together with almost any injuries to the head. it's just that in most cases, that's not the immediate problem, or even noticed, so it tends to get overlooked until it doesn't matter, or enough is recovered(sometimes happens, usually at least to some extent, sometimes not, unpredictably) that you wont notice any longer.
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Oh yeah, people have survived some really stupid shit, but between the burns, the broken bones, the losing consciousness while severely injured in deep water, etc etc, while I'm not saying it's flat out impossible for TT to have survived, as I stated, I have to chalk it up to Author Fiat.
 
OutcastXC007 said:
FTFY

On another note, for the persistence hunting we evolved specifically for it. There are no other organisms on this planet with sweat glands and sweating is a much more efficient body cooling method than panting.

Lastly, if Lisa still has organic parts (brain, spine, CNS) she would be a cyborg. Androids are all robot with no bio parts required to actually function.
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The stuff dumped a millennia ago is far less relevant to the foulness of the water today than the chemical cocktails from a few decades ago, and the sewage from 3 days ago.

Yes. That's why I emphasized that point. Just like how true bipedal locomotion gave us a better vantage point and massively improved endurance. Most animals can't actually run for extended periods of time, and then we have a race called the Marathon. Perfect example.

And yet I'm going to persist in calling her a robot despite the fact that that's entirely the incorrect term. Because Robo-Lisa is easier to type than cyborg-lisa.
 
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