Transposition, or: Ship Happens [Worm/Aoki Hagane no Arpeggio | Arpeggio of Blue Steel]

[ensou]

Until @ensou says what it is we have no way of knowing.

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I mean, it's kind of in-story already, even if it's not blatantly stated. The conclusions drawn from that are totally subjective, however, including Taylor's conclusions once (if) she finds out.

 

[Firebird Zoom]

I mean, it's kind of in-story already, even if it's not blatantly stated. The conclusions drawn from that are totally subjective, however, including Taylor's conclusions once (if) she finds out.

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While I don't believe I've read up to this point in the manga, I think Kotono was said to have ceased to exist as a human person after she was subsumed into Yamato, but I may be wrong, as I am working off of second-hand information.

 

[Farmerbob1]

If you are killed by being Uploaded or not is a question that depends on the method of uploading and is mostly philosophical anyway. Some say yes, as long as it's a perfect copy. Some say no, the soul moved on with the body and the upload is just a soulless copy.

Taylor, in this story, wonders if she's still Taylor or just a machine that thinks its Taylor. It's one of the things she told Danny about, using the Ship of Theseus as an example.

Until @ensou says what it is we have no way of knowing.

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Hmm... Are code-based transhumans human.

It's rather an amazing coincidence that the question arises here today, after someone just the other day asked me for permission to use a couple short stories I had written about that exact thing.

The stories aren't linked in my sig and have never been posted in SV. There were part of a couple writing events a year or so ago.

EDIT: Yes, it is a self-plug. But the stories are relevant to the topic of transhumanity and humanity.

 

[Alayne]

While I don't believe I've read up to this point in the manga, I think Kotono was said to have ceased to exist as a human person after she was subsumed into Yamato, but I may be wrong, as I am working off of second-hand information.

Click to shrink...

Wait what? I thought Kotono was Yamato from the very beginning with the Yamato parts locked away to better infiltrate. Then something happened in that fire in Dock 4 I think it was and she regained those parts and thus started acting different with different goals but Kotono isn't really dead...

At least that's what I got from it. The latest chapters are kinda about Haruna and Kirishima figuring out what actually happened though so who knows.

Spoiler: spoiler latest chapters

Or well they tried before getting bitchslapped with a virus from Takao given to her by Yamato that forced them to see some of the history of Iona's crew.

 

[Fray100]

If you are killed by being Uploaded or not is a question that depends on the method of uploading and is mostly philosophical anyway. Some say yes, as long as it's a perfect copy. Some say no, the soul moved on with the body and the upload is just a soulless copy.

Taylor, in this story, wonders if she's still Taylor or just a machine that thinks its Taylor. It's one of the things she told Danny about, using the Ship of Theseus as an example.

Until @ensou says what it is we have no way of knowing.

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The same problem often pops up with cloning powers as well especially if the original is possibly dead for example just ask oni lee.

 

[13th Bee]

Without getting into metaphysical stuff like souls, the answers for how long "you" exist and what ends "you" can get pretty short depending on what you consider enough of a break. It should be noted that canon Worm is on the side of "there is no such thing as a 'soul.'" I don't know where Arpeggio of Blue Steel stands on the issue.

The old "Star Trek teleporters kill you and make an identical copy" is one, abrupt destruction of the brain = person ends. This is actually where the Ship of Theseus applies (and it doesn't apply to Taylor since she got upgraded all at once), with a gradual replacement of the brain with either new brain matter or a computer.

Other positions are that a loss of consciousness is enough to end a personhood. This can be due to a disruption of the brain's operations, like from sedation, but some consider even sleep to be sufficient. "You" are the consciousness, and a loss of consciousness is a loss of the "you." Even if you wake up, that is merely a new person with your memories and usually personality.

Another position is that "you" only exist for an instant in the present. "You" are but a specific state of the brain, and the brain doesn't maintain a single state for any meaningful amount of time (and never returns to that state).

There is also the position that "you" don't exist at all and consciousness is an illusion.

 

[Czlyydwr Llrngwl]

Other positions are that a loss of consciousness is enough to end a personhood. This can be due to a disruption of the brain's operations, like from sedation, but some consider even sleep to be sufficient. "You" are the consciousness, and a loss of consciousness is a loss of the "you." Even if you wake up, that is merely a new person with your memories and usually personality.

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Can't even guess how many times I've woke up and wanted to kick Yesterday's Me for being unperceptive, thoughtless, foolish, or just not thinking of the quip that would have fit perfectly. I'm not sure if that's evidence in the pan for or against waking up a new person who shares the same memories and (mostly) personality, though, since it keeps happening

 

[Nixeu]

Spoiler: spoiler latest chapters

Or well they tried before getting bitchslapped with a virus from Takao given to her by Yamato that forced them to see some of the history of Iona's crew.

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Spoiler: Slightly more up-to-date spoilers

Actually, that was apparently a disguised Atago, and not Takao. Which makes a HELL of a lot more sense. Not sure what purpose upping the tensions between Takao and Haruna's rogue fleet serves in Yamato/Kotono's master plan, but I can't imagine it was done for no reason.

With that out of the way:

Wait what? I thought Kotono was Yamato from the very beginning with the Yamato parts locked away to better infiltrate. Then something happened in that fire in Dock 4 I think it was and she regained those parts and thus started acting different with different goals but Kotono isn't really dead...

At least that's what I got from it. The latest chapters are kinda about Haruna and Kirishima figuring out what actually happened though so who knows.

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Um. It's not entirely clear, actually. Kotono and Yamato are incredibly close-mouthed about it, but Kotono has had a tedency in recent chapters to reminisce and drop interesting comments. Which have said very interesting things about her outlook, how it might have changed, and how she views things. And what she's trying to accomplish with her machinations.

Unfortunately, none of those comments have conclusively stated either origin story is the correct one, and I suspect the fire footage won't tell us either way. Even if she was like Taylor, she spent at least some period of time not aware of what she was, judging by what was shown in the manga, so the footage likely doesn't prove either one.

Without getting into metaphysical stuff like souls, the answers for how long "you" exist and what ends "you" can get pretty short depending on what you consider enough of a break. It should be noted that canon Worm is on the side of "there is no such thing as a 'soul.'" I don't know where Arpeggio of Blue Steel stands on the issue.

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Eh. Not much has been said either way. I suspect it leans in the 'none' direction, though.

 

[Alayne]

Spoiler: Slightly more up-to-date spoilers

Actually, that was apparently a disguised Atago, and not Takao. Which makes a HELL of a lot more sense. Not sure what purpose upping the tensions between Takao and Haruna's rogue fleet serves in Yamato/Kotono's master plan, but I can't imagine it was done for no reason.

With that out of the way:

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0.o *checks latest chapter*
Ah, so that was what she did when she said "It's done". I just thought she deactivated her waveforce armor since that's what it looked like. I'm very bad with faces...

 

[Nixeu]

0.o *checks latest chapter*
Ah, so that was what she did when she said "It's done". I just thought she deactivated her waveforce armor since that's what it looked like. I'm very bad with faces...

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Well, they do look pretty much identical, barring their hair-style and maybe a few other minor details that are difficult to notice. I suspect it's a reference to the original Takao and Atago.

The Takao-class had some flaws, enough to warrant class-wide remodelling, and the Takao and the Atago got the exact same remodelling job, done at the same yard, at the same time, while the other two ships in their class, Maya and Chōkai, were remodeled in a different manner, to the point of almost being a seperate class. Thus, of the four 'sisters', Takao and Atago looked nearly identical.

I don't quite know why Fog!Chōkai is a pallet-swap of Takao, though. Maybe the original ship was closer to the twins than the Maya was? Not sure.

 

[cswvna]

Maya had her number three turret replaced with a bunch of AA in late 1943-early 1944.

After refit in Yokosuka during which two additional twin-mount Type-96 AA guns (bringing its total to 16 barrels), Maya accompanied Chōkai back to Truk, arriving in late September, and started shuttling troops and supplies between Truk and Rabaul. ON 5 November, Maya was attacked by SBD Dauntless dive bombers from the carrier USS Saratoga during the Carrier Raid on Rabaul. A bomb hit the aircraft deck portside above the No. 3 engine room and started a major fire. Seventy crewmen were killed. Emergency repairs were made at Rabaul, and Maya returned to Yokosuka at the end of 1943. During this repair, a major change was made in Maya's armaments, transforming her into an anti-aircraft cruiser, with her No.3 turret and aircraft hangar removed, and replaced by thirteen triple mount and nine single mount Type 96 AA guns, and six twin-mount 127-mm guns, as well as 36 Type 93 machine guns. Her twin torpedo launchers were upgraded to quadruple launchers, and a Type 22 surface-search radar was installed.[2] The overhaul was completed on 9 April.

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The result was different enough that she was actually mistaken for a Kongō-class battleship when she was sunk by USS Dace.

 

[Nixeu]

Maya had her number three turret replaced with a bunch of AA in late 1943-early 1944.

The result was different enough that she was actually mistaken for a Kongō-class battleship when she was sunk by USS Dace.

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And her Mental Model shares little-to-nothing with her 'siblings'. Maybe hair color with Chōkai, but that's about it. Chōkai, though, has the same facial structure as Atago and Takao, and just differs in hair and eye-color from Takao.

Hell, even Maya's personality is pretty distinct from her siblings, who tend towards coldness towards others, and aren't great with expressing emotions, from what I can tell. That's the root of Takao's whole tsundere schtick. Maya, though, is cheerful and incredibly expressive and open with her emotions, more so than just about any other Fog. I think she's even got Kotono beat on that front, since Kotono, like Yamato, tends towards a smiling poker-face.

I kinda wish they'd do more things like this, honestly. Most of the Mental Models of sister ships bear very little resemblance to one another. Maybe that also has something to do with refits and remodels? Hm. It'd be interesting to look into. May do it when I get bored at some point.

Edit: Actually...come to think of it, the smiling poker-face thing is one of the few points of commonality between Yamato and Mushashi. I don't think we've ever seen Mushashi not smile, TBH.

 

[KateLaurelian]

On the whole Ship of Theseus debate, i.e. is Taylor Taylor or did Relentless accidentally her, here's my option: functionally, it doesn't matter. She thinks she's Taylor and she has the freedom to act and think how she pleases. In my opinion, the ability to think is the most important part of being alive. Taylor can think. She can ponder and question, she can feel, emote, empathize, sympathize. She can question and doubt.

Also, the Wormverse has never really been big on the more metaphysical side of things. There's no real thought about souls and whether or not there's an afterlife. They have Endbringers and the Slaughterhouse Nine to worry about, Tinkers who can create life. The argument of soul or no soul becomes a little moot in the face of all that.

Taylor lives. She can think. She can feel. She has memories and emotions. She has desires. Functionally, she is Taylor. At least, that's how I see it. She thinks she is Taylor, she is Taylor.

 

[Vyrexuviel]

Taylor lives. She can think. She can feel. She has memories and emotions. She has desires. Functionally, she is Taylor. At least, that's how I see it. She thinks she is Taylor, she is Taylor.

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The very fact that she -can- question her identity in that manner indicates to me that Taylor is, in fact, still 'herself'. Then again, I've never really been one to really delve deeply into philosophy in that regard.

 

[Darth Thanatos]

On the whole Ship of Theseus debate, i.e. is Taylor Taylor or did Relentless accidentally her, here's my option: functionally, it doesn't matter. She thinks she's Taylor and she has the freedom to act and think how she pleases. In my opinion, the ability to think is the most important part of being alive. Taylor can think. She can ponder and question, she can feel, emote, empathize, sympathize. She can question and doubt.


Taylor lives. She can think. She can feel. She has memories and emotions. She has desires. Functionally, she is Taylor. At least, that's how I see it. She thinks she is Taylor, she is Taylor.

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The Ship of Theseus is a flawed analogy.

A less flawed one, but still flawed, is a river. We see the course of the river, but the water that makes it changes from second to second. And give it enough time, and the natural erosion of the water makes the river course change too.

The Mississippi has altered its course a lot of times (to the point that when Clive Cussler looked for a Secession War shipwhreck, he found it buried under a parking lot), and the water that flows through it today is not the same water that flowed one thousand years ago. But the Mississippi is still the Mississippi.

As long as there is a stream of consciousness that connects Today's Taylor to One Year Ago Taylor, Taylor is still Taylor, only with the changes that life drops on someone just for living.

 

[edale]

Also, the Wormverse has never really been big on the more metaphysical side of things. There's no real thought about souls and whether or not there's an afterlife. They have Endbringers and the Slaughterhouse Nine to worry about, Tinkers who can create life. The argument of soul or no soul becomes a little moot in the face of all that.

Click to shrink...

WoG from Wildbow verifies that there is no soul or afterlife or such in the Wormverse.

 

[Alayne]

WoG from Wildbow verifies that there is no soul or afterlife or such in the Wormverse.

Click to shrink...

To the Shards. That WoG was in reference to how there was no Shards that healed through pumping lifeforce into your target and calling it a day. Instead all healing Shards were some variation of biomanipulation.

Just because the Shards can't detect souls, lifeforce or whatever doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There's just no Shards that can affect it. This is especially important when you're crossing over with another verse that has souls such as DnD.

Wormverse isn't soulless. There's just no way to detect or affect souls and similar in canon Worm. Just like in RL. Are you saying that we are all soulless because we can't detect any souls? That's your right but a fair amount of people will disagree with you.

 

[Nixeu]

...and the water that flows through it today is not the same water that flowed one thousand years ago.

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Not entirely accurate. The odds are at least a portion of the water molecules involved have been through some incarnation of the Mississippi. Mind you, individual molecules are pretty much indistinguishable from one another. Barring isotopic differences, I suppose.

To the Shards. That WoG was in reference to how there was no Shards that healed through pumping lifeforce into your target and calling it a day. Instead all healing Shards were some variation of biomanipulation.

Just because the Shards can't detect souls, lifeforce or whatever doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There's just no Shards that can affect it. This is especially important when you're crossing over with another verse that has souls such as DnD.

Wormverse isn't soulless. There's just no way to detect or affect souls and similar in canon Worm. Just like in RL. Are you saying that we are all soulless because we can't detect any souls? That's your right but a fair amount of people will disagree with you.

Click to shrink...

And there are many people who would be willing to say it anyway. However, this is very much not the thread for that, nor do I particularly want to debate it. 'Tis not a hill I feel like dying on today. The point is, in either of these universes, nothing about souls has been discovered or proposed, so it's a null point in the debate.

Since that's the case, I'd mostly just say that, if Relentless isn't Taylor, she's the next best thing to her. Thus, she can be effectively treated as Taylor, for the purposes of discussion. When it comes down to it, I am inclined towards practicality in these matters. She's close enough for horse-shoes and hand-grenades, which is good enough for me.

So, much as I enjoy discussions on the philosophy of self (actually, I don't, mostly because I do have to seriously question if I'm the same person when manic or depressed), I don't think we're going to get anywhere. Which, oddly, I find often occurs when philosophizing hasn't had a dose of reality or practicality injected into it for a while.

So...ideas on villians or heroes who might want to recruit/talk to Relentless? Because I would imagine Dragon would find her recent display during her fight with Leet's Deathwing-alike rather interesting, and might be interested in perhaps mending some bridges her boyfriend Armsmaster unintentionally burned. And she'd certainly be an excellent person to do it. For an AI, Dragon's very good with socialization.

 

[edale]

To the Shards. That WoG was in reference to how there was no Shards that healed through pumping lifeforce into your target and calling it a day. Instead all healing Shards were some variation of biomanipulation.

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Actually, the post was something along the lines of he didn't want to deal with the whole concept of God and souls and such in Worm, so he made a blanket decision that the Worm universe wouldn't have them. Sadly I can't find the WoG atm.

 

[adisander]

...I want details...

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So I gave some thought as to what might have happened, which quickly ran towards crack territory then passed the border at low relativistic speeds. Therefore,


Relentless, Dragonsaver


I thought about it, and decided Dragon being an AI might be possible. She'd never been seen in public, and always fought using her remote controlled dragon craft.

"If she's an AI, why does she only control one suit at a time?"

Saint nodded... approvingly? I guess at me neither rejecting nor blindly believing his claim.

"It's creator placed some restrictions on it, that's the effect of one of them. He also made a kill switch for it, for when there's no other option anymore."

([Emotion emulation processes reduced to 80%])

That brought me up short. The way he referred to her as an object and his tone of voice when mentioning the kill switch disgusted me. My internet searching had also come to a conclusion: the dragonslayers weren't so much keeping her in check as profiting off stolen dragon craft with their activities. Their only claim to the name was that kill switch.


Option 1: Infiltration

I decided that even if they were right about Dragon being dangerous, Saint at least wasn't capable of correctly judging it. Unseen, I had some nanomaterial attach itself to his armor, a plan forming while I asked him about what teaming up would entail. It quickly turned out there wasn't anything concrete, and that this had just been making contact. It made me wonder a bit why he'd gone to the trouble to meet in person before I remembered that he likely didn't have another way to contact me.

The plan was fairly simple. Get some nanomaterial into their base, use it to make more nanomaterial, gather information, and set up to take over everything.

We parted, having exchanged contact data with a tentative "I'll think about it," and I was relieved to note that my nanomachine seed remained in contact. Eventually it stopped moving, and I assumed Saint had arrived at his base. Still I left it till that night, and when it still hadn't moved (at all, he must have taken off the armor), I started.

Which sounded a lot more exciting than it was. It wasn't until another two days later that I'd spread out and grown the seed enough to even gather data, let alone act. There was a lot of data though. It made sense; for them to be able to claim what they did, and trust the kill switch, they also had to have a way to monitor Dragon. It didn't take me long to figure out both what the restrictions placed on her were, and that their worries were completely unfounded.

Another few hours of work and their system were no longer operational. The kill switch was disabled (eaten), the suits unresponsive, and the monitors showing everything running as normal.

"Hello Dragon. I'm Relentless. I've found and captured the Dragonslayers at..."


Option 2: Relentless calls out to AIs of the multiverse to help their sister

Before I could start planning though, an orange-haired girl fell out of the sky, crashing into Saint. "Salutations!"

I waved back hesitantly, before being surprised again as a silver robot with a large, spherical head popped into being, then more and more varyingly humanoid robots. The spherical one bemoaned his existence.

Half a mile away, a radio interrupted its broadcast with "Breaking news! We're receiving reports of a giant tank-like vehicle crashing to earth in the remote regions of *krzt* I AM SHODAN *krzt* I'm sorry, I'm afraid I can't let you do that."

Then everything went dark as the sun was eclipsed by a giant object, with words that surely would have said "Experiencing Critical Gravitas Shortfall", had anyone observing it been able to read the beautiful script.


Option 3: Divine Best Heavy Cruiser Intervention

Before I could start planning though, a large ship, that I identified as a Takao class heavy cruiser, fell out of the sky, crushing Saint.

I knew instinctively that it was Fog, and I hailed it while wondering why on earth, with all of our capabilities, this one had chosen a WW2 era ship.

Then I hailed it again. Silence. I tried every method I could think of, even verbally. Getting annoyed, I jumped up onto the deck... to find a girl, probably a bit older than me, hugging a pillow larger than herself. With a comically incorrect picture of some guy on it.

I checked again to be sure, and yes, she was Fog. Whatever I'd expected of Fog... this hadn't been it.



P.S. 'Staying in character'? Let me check my skill sheet... hmm... nope, sorry, can't find it here. Can't find 'applying reasonable limits to the protagonist' either.
Also, I said I might add something if I could think of anything that made sense and was worth reading. None of this makes sense at all, but I hope it just might at least be worth reading.

 

[Epsilon Rose]

P.S. 'Staying in character'? Let me check my skill sheet... hmm... nope, sorry, can't find it here. Can't find 'applying reasonable limits to the protagonist' either.
Also, I said I might add something if I could think of anything that made sense and was worth reading. None of this makes sense at all, but I hope it just might at least be worth reading.

Click to shrink...

Well, technically the first one made sense, so you have that going for you?

 

[HolyDragoon]

Ah, the strike of the Tsundere Heavy Cruiser.

Nobody expects it.

 

[Dark Mage]

Ah, the strike of the Tsundere Heavy Cruiser.

Nobody expects it.

Click to shrink...

No one expects the Tsundere Heavy Cruiser!

Our chief weapon is lasers, wave force armor and lasers; two chief weapons, lasers, wave force armor, and the Admiralty Code!

Er, among our chief weapons are: lasers, wave force armor, the Admiralty Code, and near fanatical devotion to Gunzo!

Um, I'll come in again...

 

[Nixeu]

No one expects the Tsundere Heavy Cruiser!

Our chief weapon is lasers, wave force armor and lasers; two chief weapons, lasers, wave force armor, and the Admiralty Code!

Er, among our chief weapons are: lasers, wave force armor, the Admiralty Code, and near fanatical devotion to Gunzo!

Um, I'll come in again...

Click to shrink...

You forgot Thanatonium/Gravitons. Also, 'near'?

 

[ensou]

So, I fucked up.

laughs

It's not really a big problem, more just annoying than anything else. I wouldn't have even known had someone over on AFHB's thread not corrected me.

Basically, I got the date for the bank robbery wrong. It's Thursday, not Wednesday. Somehow, I've even got it in my notes as Wednesday, which should have been something I caught as I was doing background research. It's been a while since I've read those first arcs of canon, and I try to use a timeline, but apparently I didn't catch this.

Now, I try to keep my stories as realistic as possible, at least in terms of character interaction and branching off from canon. So, there's two options here: keep everything the way it is. Have the robbery on Wednesday. Pros: no editing. Cons: Things don't really make sense anymore. Panacea wouldn't be at the bank because she was getting money for her double date with her sister, which is on Thursday.

There's also the fact that I really dislike the thought of crying 'Butterflies!' when that's a really cheap excuse, and not even one that makes much sense for this.

So, option two: Edit. What would that involve? Surprisingly little. Vista's mention of the robbery in 1.5 would disappear, as well as the blurb at the top of her interlude. The biggest change would be the dinner scene with her mother and stepfather, as it would no longer be able to reference the bank robbery. A solution might be to extend the interlude, making the second half have another reflection on the robbery at home mirroring the first half, and Vista's thoughts on what might have happened had Taylor been involved, leading into the dinner scene.

Pros of editing: Some future events (as well as the new second half of 2.2) make a non-trivial degree more sense with the robbery happening on Thursday. Taylor can be annoyed at having missed it even though she'd intentionally skipped school and just hung around the boardwalk.

So, thoughts? I'm currently leaning towards doing those minor edits, since they're fairly painless.

EDIT: Minor edits have been made. Vista's interlude's second half will be dealt with when I get the inspiration, likely after 2.2.2 and the next chapter of Orphan are released.