Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
[X] Mountain Halls-Focus your efforts on building reputation and cachet in the Foundations and Wang lands(Events and chances to improve reputation will focus on these factions for turn 17 and 18)
 
Okay, but ... what, concretely, can we accomplish if we talk to the Wang? "We feel your pain, but nothing will change"?

OTOH talking to the Diao can actually build sympathy/empathy for what the Wang experience regularly.



The fact of the summit matters much more than what actually happens. We already know it's going to be a "disaster". We also already know that it's opening the door a crack. The only things that really matter about the summit itself are:

1. not pissing off the Empress's representative enough for him to shut the whole thing down
2. making sure that we properly handle the inevitable barbarian attack. I'm thinking something like: ES people handle the north front, visitors handle the south front, but have a few trustworthy agents under the control of the other side to increase experience working together.

Neither of those is helped by focusing on the Wang before the summit.

I promise, as soon as we have another opportunity, we'll focus on the Wang (unless maybe the Meng have a disaster for us, but I think that's still some time yet - and if it does come shortly, the Wang will probably keep - there's nothing else that can get in the way of focusing on the Wang)

The first part (to DeadManWalking) is talking about Central Valley and Foundations, not the Wang and Diao. I don't know how many times I have to repeat that the Wang are NOT Foundations, and the Diao are NOT Central Valley!

Ahem, now onto the next part.

We don't know the summit will be a disaster. I have no idea where that idea came from. In fact, we're trying to prevent that. It's our big political break here.

And focusing on the Wang will give us allies who will be there during the summit? Allies who support us. Allies who agree with our ideology. Allies who we really shouldn't be ignoring when they'll be at the summit while the Diao won't. I really don't understand the idea that the Wang won't help us. Between the Want and the Diao, the Wang are the ones who'll be at the summit and care about what happens, unlike the Diao, who see it as an offense to their sensibilities.

And I'm getting really tired of the "push the Wang back. They'll be available next time" idea. They've been pushed back and ignored for 3 turns. Now you're suggesting we repeat that for THREE MORE TURNS, maybe more if the Meng aren't available then.
 
The Wang on the other hand have mostly been fun to interact with. I liked Wang Chao and Wang Lian. Wang Lian reminded me of an older Ling Qi. And there are very important things to discuss with the Wang. For instance, Cloud "Integration" is well terrible right now and hopefully as a long term thing we can influence it to be more like how Old Tribes got their own internal autonomy and got to keep cultural practices, rather than like the well terribleness it is now. And they are bound to have concerns with regards to the "looser" Cloud Integration on the White Skies side, concerns that are best addressed before the major turn 19 Summit.

That last bit is an interesting and novel thought: with some Wang rep we could maybe stop the genocide of the cloud tribes. Like, empires gonna imperialism, but we could absolutely blunt this atrocity. And in a way that aligns with our long term goals to boot.
 
While this vote isn't explicitly about the summit, just "summit adjacent", is undeniable that whichever option we take will ultimately affect the summit outcome. That outcome is completely uncertain, neither a guaranteed success nor a certain disaster.
I think that it's wrong to see this vote as doing only one and completly erasing the other. We will do a bit of the loser in the background, but this vote will decide what we are focusing on.

Right now, because people don't seem to really understand it just because the Wang are "aligned with us", our rep with the Wang is +1.
Only +1.
2 months of dedicated political actions with the Wang is just what we need to raise them to +2, perhaps +3 if we are a bit lucky. I can't stress how much it would help us to have a Count clan with +3 with us at the summit.
There is also a lot to discuss with the Wang. The Wang is the only clan that actively integrates Cloud Nomads, even if that integration is far more forceful than what we would like. Wang Chao said once that one of his father's general is the son of a reformed Khan.
That's the kind of rhetoric that we want to bring to the summit. That the Cloud Nomads can not only live inside the empire but strive within it. But to do that we need to meet the Wang, actively and focused meeting with them, so we can present an united front. We don't want the Wang repreentative doing rude or Imperial-supremacy remarks that would strain any posible dealings.
This is the ONLY CHANCE (yes, I can also use that argument) to mellow the Wang into our more peers outlook before the summit.

It really baffles me that "it woud be easy to raise the Wang rep and rake in all the benefits (material and political)" is the argument being used to not raise their rep and rake in the benefits. Instead, we keep pursuing the explicitly and vocally doesn't like us and which are near plateauing with.
 
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WAAAAAAAANG
Adhoc vote count started by Oliver_Twister on Aug 1, 2022 at 2:06 PM, finished with 352 posts and 167 votes.
 
Not the option that i voted for.
But i'm fine with this as well.
Maybe we can get to know Wang Chao's sister bit more, even if we probably won't get to hang out with Wang Chao himself.
 
I hope this leads into the Xuan Shi action. We really need to finish things with him before the summit prep
 
Eh. I think it was the wrong thing to take, at this moment. But part of a democracy and subjecting yourself to it is living with the results, irregardless of what they are.
 
In hindsight, I should have done what I said I could and voted for both at the same time. That way I wouldn't have to worry about the nailbiting of repeatedly flip-flopping my vote. At least it's over.
 
Well, that's it. We're starting the new leg of our journey into the world of politics on the wrong foot because of missing information we should have had. Just like the last leg.

I have three predictions. One, we fritter away our narrative political momentum on a faceless, contextless "Foundations +1" which never leads anywhere or means anything and on 1-3 minor fief bonuses. Two, 'adjacent' ends up meaning "additional" to political prep for the summit and yrs struggles to come up with enough material, so we end up with too much Wang screen time which meanders while crowding out other priorities or, at worst, directly harms us as votes are added to fill space that don't need to exist but cut off opportunities anyway(also fief things). Three, Diao Hualing falls off the face of the earth except for a brief appearance on turn 17, probably linked to Root Inroads if that's still an option at the time, but that appearance accomplishes absolutely nothing and we don't see her, or Garden of Sinners, again until turn 22 during an ill-advised attempt at a seasonal time skip.
 
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Well, that's it. We're starting the new leg of our journey into the world of politics on the wrong foot because of missing information we should have had. Just like the last leg.

I have three predictions. One, we fritter away our narrative political momentum on a faceless, contextless "Foundations +1" which never leads anywhere or means anything and on 1-3 minor fief bonuses. Two, 'adjacent' ends up meaning "additional" to political prep for the summit and yrs struggles to come up with enough material, so we end up with too much Wang screen time which meanders while crowding out other priorities or, at worst, directly harms us as votes are added to fill space that don't need to exist but cut off opportunities anyway(also fief things). Three, Diao Hualing falls off the face of the earth except for a brief appearance on turn 17, probably linked to Root Inroads if that's still an option at the time, but that appearance accomplishes absolutely nothing and we don't see her, or Garden of Sinners, again until turn 22 during an ill-advised attempt at a seasonal time skip.

Shit my dude, this is some impressive unpleasantness. I get that your choice lost, but maybe give yrs a chance to actually do some writing before you declare the next arc a narrative failure. Or maybe take a break from the salt for a couple weeks.

Or, yunno, offer some constructive criticism instead of predictions of doom. That'd work too.
 
Reminder for those who are unhappy about the vote, please no grumbling about the result just because your choice didn't win.

The way i see it, the thread just chose stabilizing our foundation rather than trying a thing that appeared because of something that is essentially a random event.

Please keep it civil and don't lash out, i voted garden of sinners too you know, and i'm fine with this.
 
Shit my dude, this is some impressive unpleasantness. I get that your choice lost, but maybe give yrs a chance to actually do some writing before you declare the next arc a narrative failure. Or maybe take a break from the salt for a couple weeks.

Or, yunno, offer some constructive criticism instead of predictions of doom. That'd work too.
It's not about "my choice", I think the dynamic of the vote as a whole was flawed from the start. Garden of Sinners was just the easier path to perform damage control down, within the specific circumstances imposed by the binary choice of the vote. It's not "about" Garden of Sinners, it doesn't matter. Far larger issues are the integrity of the narrative's progression and Ling Qi being railroaded into discarding between her strongest cards because a vote had to happen.

What's unpleasant is being asked to make long-term commitments without the basic information to understand what we're doing. It's the exact same misstep that's been screwing us over in various ways since turn tournament arc.

edit: read my predictions as guideposts to avoid, and they're fine critiques. They're all based on past outcomes. But ultimately the only, best pure constructive criticism I can offer is to not let this vote, and I mean the vote as a whole, either path not just what won, be the way and shape of the future. It's a knife fight over priorities that doesn't make sense for Ling Qi. It's a meta-structural convenience, which I'm sympathetic towards, but having golden opportunities and neglected duties knife fight it out like this is not a good way out of the hole we've dug ourselves.
 
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We basically already know the broad strokes of that information just because the Diao are not exactly opaque. Dollars to donuts it's something like
"Imperial reactionaries, a small amount, -2. Imperial conservatives, a large amount, -1. Imperial moderates or some kind of 'wants to pull off a Sun Shao fusion of imperial and barbarian arts, with their own past' bespoke ideology, a small amount, 0 or 1."

The exact numbers are almost certainly not going to add any additional MEANINGFUL decision making information. They're going to be a nice to have official confirmation on, and it'll be nice to be able to track changes, but we basically already know the important bits of what it's going to tell us.
 
I don't think the actual faction groups matter, but rather the percentage they take up. Like, one of the reasons why the Wang are willing to listen to us is because they're 50% Weilu moderates, and I think about 5% Old Tribes.

So it depends how large the group we like is, in the clan
 
I don't think the actual faction groups matter, but rather the percentage they take up. Like, one of the reasons why the Wang are willing to listen to us is because they're 50% Weilu moderates, and I think about 5% Old Tribes.

So it depends how large the group we like is, in the clan

You're thinking about the Luo: 55% Weilu Moderates, 5% Old Tribes. That said, the Wang is 50% Weilu Moderates, 40% Imperial Moderates, so much the same applies. Same principle with the Meng, we want to turn the Weilu Conservative percentage into increased Weilu Reformist numbers.
 
Well, that's a bit of a shame but I'm open to what the future holds.

Usually, votes are about preferences and what could be considered "flavor" IMO. It can be frustrating to have a flute instead of a fan, but it ultimately doesn't matter.

This, however, actually feels like a mistake. Which is actually interesting too, I'm curious about the consequences.
 
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I slept on it and I'm still annoyed, but maybe I can articulate why a little better. It comes down to two distinct, but interconnected, issues.

The first is the information issue. Voting blind isn't fun for anyone involved because it generates the kinds of speculative positions that are impossible to really debate between because they're not based on anything tangible and those kinds of arguments tend to poison the well for things for, well, forever sometimes. It drags down the conversation, sometimes permanently. And there's bad history here.

Picking the trade road quest blind to the involved scope and a large number of voters even mistakenly thinking Black Lotus pass was south of the sect and would directly link to our future fief so we HAD to take it. Meng Diu's offer to promote Hanyi in the southwest or nearer the capital, before the first Garden of Sinners action, in the same turn, could give us any information on the disposition of people in the center of the province. And the real big one, a lack of establishing scenes for the summit has meant that a good chunk of everything we've been doing has been running around like a headless chicken, not knowing what to do, where, when, or why.

I'm not even saying the choices we made with the trade road quest and Hanyi's concerts were the wrong choices. Hanyi's been off-screened and the trade road pops up sometimes to snack on screen time a bit, but it isn't relevant to anything. But there's no reason to think the alternatives would have been "better". However, these are both cases where the underlying premise of one or more of the options we were picking between was unclear or unknowable, and I don't think it's a complete coincidence that the resulting storylines have such a low degree of integration, especially with the core narrative of the summit.

Broadly, there's a "left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing" issue, and it's multifaceted. It affects individual decisions we make and the interrelation of decisions we make. I think improving the first would help with the second, because knowing what we're getting into would let us prioritize directions we want to go. When we don't know what the other hand is doing we end up playing meta-damage control as often as not, sifting through in-game priorities we don't really care about, instead of putting our efforts towards things we're excited about.

The second issue concerns narrative cohesion with a dash of player autonomy. Garden of Sinners has been on rail tracks. There's been a lot of talk of us pouring actions into the Diao, but that's not accurate. The Garden of Sinners actions in turns 14 and 15 were both locked. The thread didn't have the choice to focus on Garden of Sinners more, less, earlier, or later. Even inside those actions, we didn't have any choices to engage with Diao Hualing or her clan more or less. I don't think it was intentional, but we were effectively locked out of progress or even learning anything new, and there was nothing we could do about it.

So it's frustrating that the instant we make a breakthrough where we can actually kick the stalled progress forwards, on an excellent foot even, we immediately get that narrative unsticking thrown into a pit fight to the death against a core obligation. When there's no overriding reason that they need to be in competition like this. It's an arbitrary framework, and it's actively punishing us for choices we never got to make.

And on a narrative level, it's also frustrating. She's got all this opportunity with a key demographic in a perfectly vulnerable place for ling Qi to attempt to sway hearts and minds towards her sympathies and away from the isolating winter of hardened prejudices, and she's just going to walk away from it? Switch tracks like that? Drop the burgeoning cast and focus of the narrative beat we're syphoning clout from to fuel this choice? It's confusing whiplash. Yes, Ling Qi should be orienting her attention towards summit-adjacent matters; she should have been doing that for a long time. But using the boost in rep from her adventures in the Central Valley and spending that on a completely different region is simply confused and basically throws out the regional establishment work that just finished being done straight out the window. It doesn't flow well at all, and from a neutral reader's perspective that means it undermines Ling Qi's character, because she's the one making the choice here. Answering "why" here in a compelling way is practically impossible. It doesn't matter how good a writer anybody is, the foundation just isn't there to make swapping tracks like this make any real narrative sense.

@yrsillar I hope this post (of whining) better communicates my concerns than my previous attempts (at whining).
 
Thunder Palace Sauna
Since the Thunder Palace chapters are coming out in Royal Road, I got inspired.
"The chamber they emerged in was all polished wood, save for the stone floor, filled with benches and buckets and hanging plants. All manner of spirits lazed about in a state of ill dress, and… Did she spot a disciple or two scattered about? Was this kind of sauna?

Ling Qi flushed and spied an exit, flashing toward it in a twist of wind and shadow, leaving a burst of frozen air and outraged yelps behind as she darted off down the passage. Qiu thundered after her, paws striking sparks in the air as he galloped after her with his tongue out, Yu Nuan holding frantically to her back."


@yrsillar omake for the omake throne :lol:
 
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I slept on it and I'm still annoyed, but maybe I can articulate why a little better. It comes down to two distinct, but interconnected, issues.

The first is the information issue. Voting blind isn't fun for anyone involved because it generates the kinds of speculative positions that are impossible to really debate between because they're not based on anything tangible and those kinds of arguments tend to poison the well for things for, well, forever sometimes. It drags down the conversation, sometimes permanently. And there's bad history here.

Picking the trade road quest blind to the involved scope and a large number of voters even mistakenly thinking Black Lotus pass was south of the sect and would directly link to our future fief so we HAD to take it. Meng Diu's offer to promote Hanyi in the southwest or nearer the capital, before the first Garden of Sinners action, in the same turn, could give us any information on the disposition of people in the center of the province. And the real big one, a lack of establishing scenes for the summit has meant that a good chunk of everything we've been doing has been running around like a headless chicken, not knowing what to do, where, when, or why.

I'm not even saying the choices we made with the trade road quest and Hanyi's concerts were the wrong choices. Hanyi's been off-screened and the trade road pops up sometimes to snack on screen time a bit, but it isn't relevant to anything. But there's no reason to think the alternatives would have been "better". However, these are both cases where the underlying premise of one or more of the options we were picking between was unclear or unknowable, and I don't think it's a complete coincidence that the resulting storylines have such a low degree of integration, especially with the core narrative of the summit.

Broadly, there's a "left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing" issue, and it's multifaceted. It affects individual decisions we make and the interrelation of decisions we make. I think improving the first would help with the second, because knowing what we're getting into would let us prioritize directions we want to go. When we don't know what the other hand is doing we end up playing meta-damage control as often as not, sifting through in-game priorities we don't really care about, instead of putting our efforts towards things we're excited about.

The second issue concerns narrative cohesion with a dash of player autonomy. Garden of Sinners has been on rail tracks. There's been a lot of talk of us pouring actions into the Diao, but that's not accurate. The Garden of Sinners actions in turns 14 and 15 were both locked. The thread didn't have the choice to focus on Garden of Sinners more, less, earlier, or later. Even inside those actions, we didn't have any choices to engage with Diao Hualing or her clan more or less. I don't think it was intentional, but we were effectively locked out of progress or even learning anything new, and there was nothing we could do about it.

So it's frustrating that the instant we make a breakthrough where we can actually kick the stalled progress forwards, on an excellent foot even, we immediately get that narrative unsticking thrown into a pit fight to the death against a core obligation. When there's no overriding reason that they need to be in competition like this. It's an arbitrary framework, and it's actively punishing us for choices we never got to make.

And on a narrative level, it's also frustrating. She's got all this opportunity with a key demographic in a perfectly vulnerable place for ling Qi to attempt to sway hearts and minds towards her sympathies and away from the isolating winter of hardened prejudices, and she's just going to walk away from it? Switch tracks like that? Drop the burgeoning cast and focus of the narrative beat we're syphoning clout from to fuel this choice? It's confusing whiplash. Yes, Ling Qi should be orienting her attention towards summit-adjacent matters; she should have been doing that for a long time. But using the boost in rep from her adventures in the Central Valley and spending that on a completely different region is simply confused and basically throws out the regional establishment work that just finished being done straight out the window. It doesn't flow well at all, and from a neutral reader's perspective that means it undermines Ling Qi's character, because she's the one making the choice here. Answering "why" here in a compelling way is practically impossible. It doesn't matter how good a writer anybody is, the foundation just isn't there to make swapping tracks like this make any real narrative sense.

@yrsillar I hope this post (of whining) better communicates my concerns than my previous attempts (at whining).

(post is way too late when I am way tired and is therefore written for absurd levels of clarity, because I am too tired to edit it down. tl;dr, I think objection two is the dichotomy working as designed)

There's one bit I want to focus on for a moment: "So it's frustrating that the instant we make a breakthrough where we can actually kick the stalled progress forwards, on an excellent foot even, we immediately get that narrative unsticking thrown into a pit fight to the death against a core obligation." And I'd say that by virtue of the position Ling Qi has chosen for herself, this will literally always be the case. There are no exceptions.

(Now that I've stated the most maximal form of my position for dramatic effect, let me draw it back a bit.)

Ling Qi has positioned herself as the Weilu Whisperer within the group. That's her responsibility, she put "Weilu" on the potluck sign-up sheet. She puts it on the sheet every time, and she's become known for the Horned Lord Roast. Some people are already very sick of it. "STOP FEEDING US DEER," they yell, and she looks at them and whispers, "No."

The Diao are not within her deliberately-chosen wheelhouse, they're a much more self-consciously Imperial faction: it's the sort of distinction established by "anti-" versus "a-". I wouldn't say they're "anti-Weilu" as such, it's much more a -1 relationship than a -2 or even a -3, but they are very consciously not Weilu. They are not within Ling Qi's job description. It is incredibly unlikely that this will change, let alone soon, and if it does the cost for doing so will likely be immense.

Every hour spent deliberately rather than incidentally courting the Diao or other similar factions, for its own sake rather than as a side objective that can be pursued on the way to her other duties, is an hour where Ling Qi is not doing the job that, I stress yet again, she chose to do. Now, that's no tremendous sin, because Ling Qi does not need to be perfectly efficient, but it's an aspect that needs to be acknowledged, and that means that such pursuits need to be prioritized accordingly.

Do the Diao need to be addressed? Certainly. But Ling Qi is not Cai Renxiang, and the duty of such outreach does not lay primarily on her shoulders. If anything, given her more Imperial leanings, that's a role she's much better-suited for--and given her new stepmother, it's likely a role she will be expected to perform. I suggest we let her.
 
Okay, that's the third annoying thing about this. That entire framework is built on a foundation of nothing, the actual absence of things. It's a meme. A shadow of an idea of an impression. And every moment we weren't allowed to just engage with the Garden of Sinners questline reinforces it, in a parodic paradox. It's a just so story to justify that the status quo is always how things always had to be so, and it's stretched forwards in time to justify one choice as the only one possible, even though that makes no sense because it literally was a choice.

This is what lack of information gives us with votes. Weird nonsense.
 
Okay, that's the third annoying thing about this. That entire framework is built on a foundation of nothing, the actual absence of things. It's a meme. A shadow of an idea of an impression. And every moment we weren't allowed to just engage with the Garden of Sinners questline reinforces it, in a parodic paradox. It's a just so story to justify that the status quo is always how things always had to be so, and it's stretched forwards in time to justify one choice as the only one possible, even though that makes no sense because it literally was a choice.

This is what lack of information gives us with votes. Weird nonsense.
Again, we basically already have all of the actual MEANINGFUL information because the Diao are not particularly opaque. What decision-making difference does it actually make if the "actually willing to put up with Ling Qi" faction is 5% instead of 10% or vice versa? We already have the meaningful information, which is that they are not large enough to make a difference in the clan at large.
 
Again, we basically already have all of the actual MEANINGFUL information because the Diao are not particularly opaque. What decision-making difference does it actually make if the "actually willing to put up with Ling Qi" faction is 5% instead of 10% or vice versa? We already have the meaningful information, which is that they are not large enough to make a difference in the clan at large.
This is an impossible question. We don't have the information, how do you want me to respond? I can't, because it can't be done. Anything I could come up with would be speculation, which I will not do because that's among my chief complaints of what's happening in the opposite direction. I can't bring up any niche information, because I don't have it. Because we don't have the information that I want. That's the whole point.
 
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