Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

[Powder Miner]

First vote in the quest (though I've been lurking for a goodly chunk of the last in-game month):

[X] Mountain Halls-Focus your efforts on building reputation and cachet in the Foundations and Wang lands(Events and chances to improve reputation will focus on these factions for turn 17 and 18)

I was swayed to come in and vote for this option specifically by primarily arguments about our role in-character; originally, I'd actually agreed with the Garden of Sinners option, but it actually made a lot of sense to me that as a vassal to Cai Renxiang (in other words, a subordinate part of this project, not the one responsible for its whole, who is Renxiang) we need to be able to offer assets up to to this project rather than attempt to balance the entire Emerald Seas with regards to it singlehandedly. We are a part of a whole, and Renxiang is managing the assets and liabilities we provide as part of the project at this point. Given that the Diao won't be a liability either way (we have pretty much unruffled feathers in the Central Valley, where our rep is positive, and it's been stated in here that the Diao have stated that they won't be interfering in any meaningful way), focusing on the Wang and the Foundations will provide assets.

 

[TheCount]

oh, for the love of....

THIS IS NOT A SUMMIT VOTE!

It only relates to the summit in that, we will focus on growing our nascent spy network in one region or the other while doing summit rep.

Its not that we work with one of them. becuase we will still do that for both. its just deciding which faction we want to do side quests for.

i want to do the Diao, mostly because i find their story more interesting, though, i doubt it would have much monetary reward, aside from what connections we manage to open up for later.

The Wang, are pretty clear cut in what they want and what we will get. Trade. We can do jack shit about the Cloud Nomad raids, aside from running there from the summit prep. (Not to mention the summit will most likely lower or straight up eliminate those after its done)

Both the reason of cutting Diao Hualing and the Diao off and that if we don't chose the Wang, the summit will fail are exaggerated.

i state it again, this is NOT a summit vote, its a vote of what we do BESIDE the summit, in our capacity as the person who gathers intelligence for CRX as her (Newby) spy master.

Neither choice list anything summit related.
Events and possible opinion increase are the only things that will happen. there is NO COST, because we will slight no one.

If we listen to the Diao, we con soften them up to outsider diplomacy while directing their hate to only one clan of It-Icha. Not to mention all the juicy info we can gather on the on goings of the ES, because EVERYTHING going on finds in way there.

If we listen to the Wang, we improve the trade and flow of goods between our fiefs and help us develop ours faster. maybe, MAYBE help something get to the summit arrive faster/easier, but only because there are already trade routes between our fiefs.

So, let me state it thrice, and no more.
this is not a summit vote.

*huff* .... i did not expect to go ranting at this vote, seriously.

 

[Powder Miner]

Previous posts in thread have stated that Yrsillar explicitly stated on the Discord that this vote is adjacent to, NOT separate from, the summit.

 

[Zithinoth]

Previous posts in thread have stated that Yrsillar explicitly stated on the Discord that this vote is adjacent to, NOT separate from, the summit.

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Here ya go, the original source.

Its about direction for your internal facing actions over the next two turns, they're not separate from the diplo prep you'll be doing, more adjacent.

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[Valmond]

We have a change of cementing our current reputation in the Central Valley.
Right now, we are just a baron who got lucky, but with some elbow grease, and building connections, i think we could become a local hero.
Also possibly give a boost to the Diao who want to revive the spirit blood of their clan.

And i think the story potential is interesting.
I'd probably vote for Wang if not for the current situation, or Meng if they were available, but right now Central Valley offers more interesting story for me.

 

[Powder Miner]

Here ya go, the original source.

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Thanks a lot; I've read through and very occasionally voted in a couple of quests here before (such as Photomajig's The First Hero and carni's There Are Only Three Levels, which were and are fantastic quests respectively), but not a lot, and the UI is still a little cryptic to me. I had started digging for it to include it into my post in an edit (perhaps it wouldn't have killed me to wait in the first place, haha) but it would have taken a few minutes. Also, uh, oops, guess it wasn't a Discord statement.

 

[Broccoliccoli]

[X] Garden of Sinners-Focus your efforts on the Central Valley and Diao lands(Events and chances to improve reputation will focus on these factions for turn 17 and 18)

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

Hanyi's tour, I suppose we'll be getting the improvements for that late this turn?

That was southern Meng lands and the Wang Foundations wasn't it? So we should be seeing a boost there anyways. Maybe even shifts in the political make up of those regions/clans.

Central Valley has momentum right now, we are a commodity. The Diao will want to capitalize on that. If they can swing us, and make it look like they leveraged their power for it, they gain. They want us there. Their underlings want us there.

Strike while the iron is hot.

The Wang are going to have so many more opportunities by virtue of being our neighbors.

The Diao aren't actively against us and the summit, but they also are against it, rn, and they have major sway in the province.

And most clans are going to wait until after the summit to really engage with anything we do anyways, because that's imperial culture in a nutshell.

Getting them to +1 in time for the summit and it's aftermath is better than getting the Wang to active allies (something which we'd do anyways with our south-western bloc already forming and not something I think we need right now). It might actually sway some of the Diao to speak more positively of CRX, Ling Qi, their Neo-Weilu Movement, and the relationships with the Ice Clans. Right now their inclined to do the opposite. (Also we can finally see what factions are within the clan) Also their population must be much larger than the Wang's. Meaning it'd be a great place to trade into, before it gets traded on.

We will have more opportunities with the Wang. Lots of them, constantly, they are our neighbors and will initially be our biggest trade partners. We basically have to go through their lands to get to anyone else. Except maybe the Argent Sect, the other big trade partner. Buffing the Wang attitude towards us will come no matter what we choose now.

This, however, is an excellent chance with the Diao. It would even give us wiggle room when we, eventually, do the old road quest.

I figure this vote it 'Hey, we can do this now to great effect and good narrative' vs 'Do something now that we're going to do anyways later by virtue of existing.'

The fief is good as it is, we will have plenty of time to improve it. I would expect us to be at what turn 20? before it really kicks off. That's plenty of time to improve our already significant relations with the Wang, we even have ins with the Main Line of the Wang. Improving with them is going to be easy. They're right there.

I cannot stress how much I believe this is the best chance to bump the Diao relations. The PM, Matriarch, and Consort did tell us she reflects her clan, didn't she? If the clan is inclined towards our faction, so to will the upper echelons of current power begin to better sway our way. And we can better leverage our spy network in the Central Valley to continue improving relations in the middle of the province.

It's a perfect storm, imo. Do it, vote Garden of Sinners, vote for the cooler name, vote for the better right now and long term vote, vote for the better narrative. Vote for slender dusky dancer mommy! Vote for Su Ling and Gan Guangli shipping!

 

[Zithinoth]

It's a perfect storm, imo. Do it, vote Garden of Sinners, vote for the cooler name, vote for the better right now and long term vote, vote for the better narrative. Vote for slender dusky dancer mommy! Vote for Su Ling and Gan Guangli shipping!

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I mean, the Diao are an established clan, they don't need to adopt Barons on even terms. If they're bringing Su Ling in, they'll marry a random scion to her. Which will kinda kill the Su Ling and Gan Guangli shipping.

The only reason LQ has count clans offering to marry their scions into the Ling clan rather than the other way 'round is because LQ is a direct vassal of the Cai. Su Ling doesn't have that level of political patronage.

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

The only reason LQ has count clans offering to marry their scions into the Ling clan rather than the other way 'round is because LQ is a direct vassal of the Cai. And Su Ling isn't.

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Didn't that start before the Cai vote? With the Gu? They're a count clan IIRC under a marquis though I also realize that the Golden Fields is a bit awkward in it's structure rn due to the *waves at gigantic death hole in the world.*

Man, there's an elseworld I'd like to see, ngl. Would Lanlan still be on campaign, after injuring herself (IIRC that happened after the Gu betrothal) trying to keep up with Qi.

Honestly, I would hope that such a thing would lead more into cold desert night moon fairy than frozen mountaintop snow moon fairy. And Zhengui making gardens fucking everywhere. YOU GET A GARDEN AND YOU GET A GARDEN AND YOU GET A GARDEN, EVERYONE GETS A GARDEN.

 

[Oliver_Twister]

Shipping has nothing to do with this. My filthy, multishipper heart, forged in the hell flames that are Wattpad and Ao3, wants shipping to be relevant, but it'll be decades before that happens (T_TT).

I also sincerely doubt that the Diao wants us there. Central Valley wants us there. The Diao do not. They are two separate identities. I also sincerely doubt that we'll get them to +1. Neutrality with 0, yes, but not plus +1. It's not just us they dislike. It's CRX too.

I don't believe the idea that we should ignore the Wang just because they're our neighbors. "They're right there! We can focus on them later!" yet three turns later we haven't, and I don't want to add yet another 3-4 turns to that just because "we'll see them at the summit. They support us", even though nothing has been done to actually discuss the summit with them.


And if the Diao will be more susceptible and open if the summit goes well, then I'll want to make sure we have strong allies so that we can present a united front with the Wang at the summit, so that when the Diao look, they'll see that it's successful and will be more open.

Edit:

Didn't that start before the Cai vote? With the Gu? They're a count clan IIRC under a marquis though I also realize that the Golden Fields is a bit awkward in it's structure rn due to the *waves at gigantic death hole in the world.*

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That was partly because of Lanlan and partly because of Zhengui iirc? Even then, it was to be the part of a branch clan of the Gu. Not the actual Gu. And the Gu are Viscounts who are trying to reach counthood. Is the word counthood?

 

[Valmond]

I mean, the Diao are an established clan, they don't need to adopt Barons on even terms. If they're bringing Su Ling in, they'll marry a random scion to her. Which will kinda kill the Su Ling and Gan Guangli shipping.

The only reason LQ has count clans offering to marry their scions into the Ling clan rather than the other way 'round is because LQ is a direct vassal of the Cai. Su Ling doesn't have that level of political patronage.

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The faction of Diao who want Su Ling in are not looking for a random baron, they are looking for spirit fox blood.
And stronger Su Ling gets, more desireable she becomes.
Not to mention that marrying a low ranking member of the clan to a direct ducal retainer clan is not a bad political move.
I could see Diao adopting Su Ling to get some spirit blood into the family, having her marry Gan Guangli as a "political" marriage, while keeping portion of the children as Diao instead of Gan.

Though we kinda handed them a bunch of spiritblooded kids which makes Su Ling less important, but on the other hand also makes it easier to do the adopt and marry of scheme.

 

[Zithinoth]

The faction of Diao who want Su Ling in are not looking for a random baron, they are looking for spirit fox blood.
And stronger Su Ling gets, more desireable she becomes.
Not to mention that marrying a low ranking member of the clan to a direct ducal retainer clan is not a bad political move.
I could see Diao adopting Su Ling to get some spirit blood into the family, having her marry Gan Guangli as a "political" marriage, while keeping portion of the children as Diao instead of Gan.

Though we kinda handed them a bunch of spiritblooded kids which makes Su Ling less important, but on the other hand also makes it easier to do the adopt and marry of scheme.

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Sure, but that just makes them even more likely to marry off a scion to Su Ling in order to get the spirit blood back into the clan, killing the GG x SL ship. Why adopt a random baron for her spirit blood and then let her have non-Diao kids? The Diao have the leverage there, so it makes no sense.

 

[Axel Fones]

[X] Garden of Sinners-Focus your efforts on the Central Valley and Diao lands(Events and chances to improve reputation will focus on these factions for turn 17 and 18)

 

[Valmond]

Sure, but that just makes them even more likely to marry off a scion to Su Ling in order to get the spirit blood back into the clan, killing the GG x SL ship. Why adopt a random baron for her spirit blood and then let her have non-Diao kids? The Diao have the leverage there, so it makes no sense.

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Because Su Ling is not going to marry some random asshole she does not care about.
Only thing they have to offer her is the fox spirit that gave birth to her, and she is getting plenty of help in that front from us and the ministries anyway.

 

[o11c]

I also sincerely doubt that the Diao wants us there. Central Valley wants us there. The Diao do not. They are two separate identities. I also sincerely doubt that we'll get them to +1. Neutrality with 0, yes, but not plus +1. It's not just us they dislike. It's CRX too.

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And you don't see the value of "the Diao can't afford to work against us because it will cause their own vassals to revolt (probably not literally)"?

Diao Linqin hate CRX, true, but that does not even mean she personally wants to see CRX fail - she was a contributing part of Shenhua's plan the whole time, after all! And besides, Diao Linqin is not the whole of the Diao.

Pretty sure we've had WOG that the Emerald Seas would fall into civil war without Tyrant Mom. Even if we succeed at killing/daobreakinger her, the ES as a whole might be doomed. Let's try to head that off while we have the rare chance, okay?

Again: the summit itself DOES NOT MATTER. After the summit does.

 

[DeadmanwalkingXI]

Sure, but that just makes them even more likely to marry off a scion to Su Ling in order to get the spirit blood back into the clan, killing the GG x SL ship. Why adopt a random baron for her spirit blood and then let her have non-Diao kids? The Diao have the leverage there, so it makes no sense.

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I mean, they actually don't. They would if Su Ling cared about being a member of their family but she doesn't at all so if they want her to be, they have to cater to her not the other way around. Now, whether they're willing to actually do that just to get her on the books is a different question, but they have zero actual leverage over her.

 

[DeadmanwalkingXI]

Pretty sure we've had WOG that the Emerald Seas would fall into civil war without Tyrant Mom. Even if we succeed at killing/daobreakinger her, the ES as a whole might be doomed. Let's try to head that off while we have the rare chance, okay?

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In terms of civil war prevention, I think stopping the growing Wang resentment towards the rest of the province is every bit as important as winning over the Diao's vassals. Not necessarily more important, but equally so.

 

[Oliver_Twister]

And you don't see the value of "the Diao can't afford to work against us because it will cause their own vassals to revolt (probably not literally)"?

Diao Linqin hate CRX, true, but that does not even mean she personally wants to see CRX fail - she was a contributing part of Shenhua's plan the whole time, after all! And besides, Diao Linqin is not the whole of the Diao.

Pretty sure we've had WOG that the Emerald Seas would fall into civil war without Tyrant Mom. Even if we succeed at killing/daobreakinger her, the ES as a whole might be doomed. Let's try to head that off while we have the rare chance, okay?

Again: the summit itself DOES NOT MATTER. After the summit does.

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Glad that last part said "probably not literally". This is *not* like the Bai/Hui. They said they don't want to be involved. They said they won't interfere. That's as much as I expected, and I don't think anything short term would change that.

Also, Diao Linqin not being the whole of the Diao is fair. She's a Cai now.

And the summit DOES matter! How can it not matter, when most provinces are sending reps? How does it not matter, when this is the first time the Empire is facing a foreign polity on peaceful terms? How can it not matter, it's a big risk for us and CRX to establish ourselves?

The summit MATTERS, and the aftermath depends on how well the summit goes. That's why we need to discuss things with the Wang and shore up our alliance with them. That's why we're trying to recruit Xuan Shi. To have a united front and influence things so that they go well and favor us

 

[Zithinoth]

I mean, they actually don't. They would if Su Ling cared about being a member of their family but she doesn't at all so if they want her to be, they have to cater to her not the other way around. Now, whether they're willing to actually do that just to get her on the books is a different question, but they have zero actual leverage over her.

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I mean, sure, Su Ling can just not try to join the Diao. And I agree, they have zero leverage to try and make her join.

I'm just saying that if Su Ling does try and join the Diao, they hold the cards and will probably try to marry her to a Diao scion. Because why wouldn't they? And if they can't do that, well, they can find a more agreeable fox spirit-blood, because they're a count clan.

 

[Powder Miner]

Again: the summit itself DOES NOT MATTER. After the summit does.

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While I think I see the argument being presented for the summit not mattering (that it is essentially a preliminary meeting and any real gains will be contingent on future meetings), that argument is one I have several serious issues with. Firstly, we already had the preliminary meeting, where Ling Qi (who in this case the Polar Confederation did believe to be a little more important than she is, though I wouldn't call her unimportant by any means), Cai Renxiang, Gan Guangli, and Xia Lin made initial contact with the White Skies member unit of the Polar Confederation, and Jaromila's member unit of the Polar Confederation, paid the blood price for previous transgressions, and worked out the terms for a later summit.

That's the preliminary meeting. The summit is the follow-up.

An actual summit between the Polar Confederation proper and the Southern Emerald Seas proper is an immense undertaking; there's a very large distance across very rough and very dangerous terrain between the Polar Confederation and the Southern Emerald Seas, and the world as a whole in this area is most certainly not connected enough for communication or travel to be quick and easy. Even with cultivators cutting down significantly on this, it still takes months of preparation from both parties in order to make a significant diplomatic meeting.

Remember, it's not just us rolling down to prepare the summit, it's not just various Imperial noble polities sending down what envoys they can to seek opportunities (Bao Qingling might be being sent to the summit because it's what she wants to do and Bao Qian cares for her - but it's also because the Bao expect to open up mercantile opportunities, and similarly the Bai are attempting to continue diplomatically establishing themselves by sending Meizhen, the core Empire has involved itself by sending ITS envoy, and I suspect these aren't all). It's also the Polar Confederation gathering up relevant units of its membership (remember that Jaromila's unit's leader was going to go and retrieve the member of the Polar Confederation descended from the Mountain Tribes formerly of the Emerald Seas) for the summit, and doing what preparations it needs to to travel across that distance and prepare the summit as well.

With all of this in mind, and the fact that every month the political situation with the Cloud Tribes grows more threatening (for both the Polar Confederation AND the Southern Emerald Seas), and the war with the Cloud Tribes and the Lith grows more intense (for the Southern Emerald Seas), wasting this summit is absolutely a non-option, and the actions taken here will be expected to be important, and will likely shape how and why the next intense diplomatic effort is taken. It's also worth noting that some of the actions cited as sort of being this preliminary thing at the summit (like that the Southern Emerald Seas and Polar Confederation would agree not to attack each other) would in and of themselves be huge and contentious deals that would reflect heavily on the Polar Confederation; these aren't matters of course, they're things that need to be secured, and that we have things we can secure beyond that (such as the mercantile opportunities the Bao seek) shows that the summit is absolutely not some nothing event.

 

[Valmond]

I mean, sure, Su Ling can just not try to join the Diao. And I agree, they have zero leverage to try and make her join.

I'm just saying that if Su Ling does try and join the Diao, they hold the cards and will probably try to marry her to a Diao scion. Because why wouldn't they?

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Su Ling is not trying to join the Diao, a specific faction of the Diao is trying to join Su Ling.
And yes, they have already offered to introduce her to one of their scions, i do not see that going anywhere.

 

[o11c]

In terms of civil war prevention, I think stopping the growing Wang resentment towards the rest of the province is every bit as important as winning over the Diao's vassals. Not necessarily more important, but equally so.

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Okay, but ... what, concretely, can we accomplish if we talk to the Wang? "We feel your pain, but nothing will change"?

OTOH talking to the Diao can actually build sympathy/empathy for what the Wang experience regularly.

And the summit DOES matter! How can it not matter, when most provinces are sending reps? How does it not matter, when this is the first time the Empire is facing a foreign polity on peaceful terms? How can it not matter, it's a big risk for us and CRX to establish ourselves?

The summit MATTERS, and the aftermath depends on how well the summit goes. That's why we need to discuss things with the Wang and shore up our alliance with them. That's why we're trying to recruit Xuan Shi. To have a united front and influence things so that they go well and favor us

Click to shrink...

The fact of the summit matters much more than what actually happens. We already know it's going to be a "disaster". We also already know that it's opening the door a crack. The only things that really matter about the summit itself are:

1. not pissing off the Empress's representative enough for him to shut the whole thing down
2. making sure that we properly handle the inevitable barbarian attack. I'm thinking something like: ES people handle the north front, visitors handle the south front, but have a few trustworthy agents under the control of the other side to increase experience working together.

Neither of those is helped by focusing on the Wang before the summit.

I promise, as soon as we have another opportunity, we'll focus on the Wang (unless maybe the Meng have a disaster for us, but I think that's still some time yet - and if it does come shortly, the Wang will probably keep - there's nothing else that can get in the way of focusing on the Wang)

 

[DeadmanwalkingXI]

Okay, but ... what, concretely, can we accomplish if we talk to the Wang? "We feel your pain, but nothing will change"?

OTOH talking to the Diao can actually build sympathy/empathy for what the Wang experience regularly.

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I mean we have the ear of the heir to the Emerald Seas. Being in this with them, sympathetic, and able to address some of their issues in meaningful ways (all of which we can do), can definitely work for reducing their resentments significantly.

 

[GlassMask]

I just prefer the Wang Option.

At this point, we know the Wang's and the Diao's fundamental deals. The Wang wish to build a Strong Foundation, building tall on their own land. They have an interesting mix of Weilu and Imperial influences in their architecture and building style. The Diao on the other hand, are split between wanting to usurp power after Shenhua (and thus we will always be in conflict with them as that's Renxiang's role) and staying in their lane.

The Wang are just more fundamentally aligned with us. We want to improve the Southern Emerald Seas, and the whole province. The Foundation is the most neglected area, and helping to improve it really would help us and everyone as well.

The Diao on the other hand will always be more split. As we are a Cai Renxiang loyalist, a significant faction of the Diao will always have suspicions about us. We can work to minimize it, but I honestly doubt they would rally around CRX rather than say one of Linqin's kids.

Worsening the Diao option in my eyes is just that Hualing is just not that interesting to me. She is explicitly an opportunist. She is a useful contact and has her own agenda, but ultimately she is a character who will go where the wind blows. I prefer a character more like Meng Diu who has fairly strong convictions.

The Wang on the other hand have mostly been fun to interact with. I liked Wang Chao and Wang Lian. Wang Lian reminded me of an older Ling Qi. And there are very important things to discuss with the Wang. For instance, Cloud "Integration" is well terrible right now and hopefully as a long term thing we can influence it to be more like how Old Tribes got their own internal autonomy and got to keep cultural practices, rather than like the well terribleness it is now. And they are bound to have concerns with regards to the "looser" Cloud Integration on the White Skies side, concerns that are best addressed before the major turn 19 Summit.