Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I have a problem with the idea that a.Voting a certain way will actively make the quest worse
I for one am a disinterested party who really doesn't care about bastion one way or the other but well...

Worse is a matter of opinion. There may very well be some people out who want bastion checked off a list but don't want it to have much screentime who very much like the idea of "hey it doesn't resonate this turn so it's got good odds of just being a paragraph of 'and the ling qi studied this'" after all! But if someone is saying "I am voting for X because I want result Y" then bringing up why one doesn't think result Y is going to happen is completely reasonable. In this case responding to people going "I am voting for [bastion] because I want [particular narrative resonances]" with "I do not think [particular narrative resonances] are going to happen for the following reasons" is a good discussion for the quest to contain! Sucks if you're voting for X for reasons other than result Y and the argument convinces enough people who were voting based on result Y, but that's questing for ya.


This is doubly true because if we want to use Bastion as a fun plot point during the nightmare tribulation (where it could be amazing), either Yrs is forced to introduce Bastion before said arc in the turn, locking in stuff in a way that might create issues elsewhere, or he just doesn't notice the synergy (or doesn't agree with it) and we end up learning Bastion *after* the nightmare arc.
I mean... if he doesn't agree with it, it's not gonna help no matter when we take it now is it. :V
 
Well I have been convinced to change votes. Not the Bastion is a bad fit, but that ripples is a good one and the +10% from the vent is a big, and temporary bonus.
Also, I've been playing XCOM recently so yeah, that percent is a tingling bonus.
[X] Plan Wherein Lies Meaning
 
For goodness sake, Bastion is just such a clumsy pick for this turn, at least pick something that can fit in with the rest of the narrative instead of something you have to stretch so far you can see daylight out of it.

As things stand, the general flow of the turn looks like it's going to be "FSS+/Xuan Shi Adventure/Fief Survey/Preliminary Summit Setup", to limit bouncing around (Starting from the Sect in Reality and fanning outwards from there). Ripples can comfortably fit in the connecting tissue between FSS+ and the Xuan Shi Adventure, Laughing Wind can fit in the tissue between the Xuan Shi Adventure and the Fief Survey, and we're all good. Bastion literally does not fit anywhere in this turn though, which means it's going to--at best--have to be hamfistedly slid in during Fief Survey as a side paragraph or something, which doesn't really give it a chance to breathe.

And people are going to complain about it, doubly so as so many people got super invested in their headcanon of how Bastion actually fits into the Zeqing reminiscence thing, and it's going to make everyone miserable if that wins and then doesn't actually meet their expectations.

I mean, at the end of the day, Bastion isn't going anywhere, and there's going to be lots of places where it'd fit nicely. Ripples fits nicely now, and will struggle to fit later, I don't see why Bastion has to win as soon as possible when we're still a ways off from that kind of negotiation, as it's hardly some kind of absurd "Spirits can't hurt me and mine!" spell either.

I don't think so, about Bastion not fitting. It has lots of threads and reasons why it fits apart from the Zeqing thing, which I don't really support FSS+ is narratively full and shouldn't have things added to it, like I've said many times.

I also don't believe Ripples fits with FSS+. Firstly, FSS+ is full. Secondly, people keep on forcing their thoughts of Void being about Endings into FSS+, when it's really not. Look at the concept gains for it. It's exploring another form of Isolation related to Lake Hei, which doesn't work to go to when we finally formalized our thoughts on the meaning of Isolation on the cold, sad streets.

And Bastion does have a lot of relevance to the scene, apart from Zeqing, which is getting ignored because people are only looking at the mechanical effect, which is a consequence of the ruminations of the art's meaning, not the actual cause. And again, it's an alteration. Alterations come with thoughts of the art as a whole, which works especially well with the theme of MoSS and our thoughts at the end of turn 15.

Our Survey is not about going into dangerous places alone, it's about identifying potential assets and resources. The Summit preparation isn't about talking to Spirits, it's about smoothing over ruffles in a Second Contact scenario, and the Liminal Journey's main danger is someone who will Cause Problems On Purpose if they have to, not diving into a dissolution storm so we can talk to its eye.

For the Survey, I agree it's not about going into dangerous places alone. But the places have been getting more and more dangerous as we go on, and protection is always good. Plus, the other characters in it are two soldier types...which doesn't really help build my confidence

And at the end of the day, Ripples also isn't going anywhere, but we're going, and it'll be a lot harder to complete without spending omake points just to complete it instead of double it. That's just for Bastion too. The project behind it has may need. And for the liminal Journey, I'd like to point at Su Ling yet again, if we're ignoring the text for what the project is focusing on.

This turns projects aren't quite that. First off, the Xuan Shi adventure has, well, quite a bit else going on in it. Yeah, there's Kongyou there being Nightmare-y, but there's also the recruitment effort with Xuan Shi and Zhengui there. Zhengui's a big surprise, and it implies to me that there's already a Plan for the action. Introducing additional variables to an important and pre-planned narrative weave is something I consistently rail against, so it's only fair that I speak out here. Risking an awkward diversion for the sake of Bastion during the adventure with Xuan Shi has a very real chance of diverting, or just starving of screen-time, some important character development opportunities.

The other reason not to place Bastion in this turn is simply because there's a project we're not taking here that pairs with it great. The Nightmare Tribulation action! Nightmares are casually malicious/dangerous for humans, kind of without even thinking about it. It's just what they are. Which fits the needs of Bastion pretty well. But more than that, Ling Qi(and Sixiang to an extent) have this kneejerk antipathy with Nightmare stuff, which puts a spirit diplomacy project in an interesting narrative context. There's a lack of understanding or reaching out on both sides there, isn't there? And doesn't that mirror some of the broader diplomatic concerns Ling Qi is turning herself to face-down, on the scale of empires? Seizing on a personal barrier to communication with a hostile force, Ling Qi coming to realize she needs to open herself to engaging with the nightmares of the world too, is a really cool way to add immense narrative punch to Bastion, which otherwise plays out on some random spirit somewhere who doesn't truly matter or mean anything to Ling Qi's journey.

Hmm you do have a point there. But well, I think that's one of the reasons why Bastion is an excellent pick right now. Ling Qi's only interaction with a nightmare has been
a) the Dream Melt
b) The sword scene, when she was helping a friend and then suddenly sees the thing that tried killing her.

So really, not any situations that are tame for understanding. So going on an adventure where we're sure to actually interact with a nightmare in a non-hostile environment, without any of the surprises of meeting Kongyou or a Dream melt, would really help with the issue of no understanding, especially with Bastion, a project for an art focused on bringing understanding to spirits most inhuman (like a nightmare). Plus, just the whole point of the Tribulation, apart from working through some of her issues with intimacy, is to see the nightmares that drive people. If we make the right choices like with the Zeqing tribulation, assuming the outcome depends solely on our in-story choices like with our first tribulation, I can see the Tribulation making her open herself to engage with the nightmares of the world and how they also connect people, so that she can make more headway (because she HAS made progress) on her issues with intimacy, without any other project interacting with it.

And well, Ripples can work really well with the Nightmare Tribulation imo. The Tribulation is about seeing what drives people, what lays at the heart of the Nightmare. It's to help Ling Qi understand nightmares of the world before she actually tries to cut out that part of herself. It also gives Mystery XP, and our Mystery concept is about asking Why. Isolation already follows the thread of Privation of the Soul. Mystery will focus on Privation of the Mind, Ignorance, and why Ling Qi shouldn't cut away part of herself. Six said she should at least understand and fully consider things first, and that fits really well with "Finding meaning in the dark" after realizing how small you are in the infinite expanses of Lake Hei.

As for the Xuan Shi action, that's a fair concern too, since this is about him and Kongyou first and foremost. But our explicit role in Sea of Dreams is recruiting Xuan Shi and being a guide for his adventure, like with Su Ling and her adventure. I don't really see Bastion taking too much from that. Between Sea of Dreams and the Starlit Labyrinth vote, Sea of Dreams, had the most chance of affecting his relationship with Kongyou, so really there's going to be lots of interactions and character growth for him on success. It'll just mean Bastion has a high chance of segueing into it without detracting things away from it.
 
That's mostly because most arguments for ripples try to paste it to eeverything.
Only argument I couldn't find a response to was that it helps us ponder the orb meaning of life...

As for Bastion not fitting the narrative, that true for ripples as well.... We only have the outlines with the turn plans, and There don't need to be a spirit encounter for it to fit. As Abeo put it, it could be worked out but not field tested, but that doedoesn't hurts it.
Not seen any actual arguments trying to do that. Keep in mind voters are a collection of different arguments.

The arguments regarding Void influencing FSS seem to mostly be from people arguing against the point. Void isn't really tied to Endings that way after all.

The project title hints at it.
We Are But Ripples.
Its a commentary on the transience of existence.

Whether your takeaway from the transience of individual life is the futility of doing anything at all, or how the ripples echo and make new forms, or even how the void as backdrop allows their brief existence at all is up to you.

Its a good meditative closer to FSS+ in a scene sense. Listen to the silence after the music passes. More than just Mood setting is a stretch.
 
I find this all quite confusing, but I'm going to keep my vote as is.

On the topic of advancement, which chapter explained how the whole "reach third realm before a certain age and you automatically become a Baron" thing worked? I've lost it in the blur of binge reading.
 
Not seen any actual arguments trying to do that. Keep in mind voters are a collection of different arguments.

The arguments regarding Void influencing FSS seem to mostly be from people arguing against the point. Void isn't really tied to Endings that way after all.

The project title hints at it.
We Are But Ripples.
Its a commentary on the transience of existence.

Whether your takeaway from the transience of individual life is the futility of doing anything at all, or how the ripples echo and make new forms, or even how the void as backdrop allows their brief existence at all is up to you.

Its a good meditative closer to FSS+ in a scene sense. Listen to the silence after the music passes. More than just Mood setting is a stretch.
Except it has been brought up.
As for the meaning of existence, insistence already has that spelled out.
Persistence II (1/3): The world is in flux and things last only due to the exertion of will.
Sad thing is, Void is shiny and easy to double. Hence why most arguments I saw try to paint it over isolation, creation, want, or persistence annoy me.
I am bad at arguments, but it's just infuriating to see people shrilling for ripples going "it's not the time", "it doesn't fit", "it takes over the narrative" at other projects and put ripples as a wonder gel that makes everything slide together seamlessly.
It does not.
Neither does Bastion, but it can at least look back to previous encounters and draw from there, even without it being tied to a specific highlight in the turn.
 
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Putting aside aspersions that Ripples will somehow force its way into FSS+, or co-opt it (which I completely disagree with - it's a tonal and thematic complement it in the context of the broader turn, not something that'll be integrated):

Ripples plays wonderfully with the core of Xuan Shi'a character arc, not via Void but via the philosophical introspection into meaning in the face of the vast, uncaring world, and the crushing smallness of a single human in the face of the infinite dark. The search for meaning and purpose has been essentially his core drive, after drifting aimlessly in the doldrums (to borrow from his metaphors), and is precisely what Kongyou is keying off.

Isolation is as core to Xuan Shi as it is to Ling Qi, but where she reaches out to connect in defiance of it, he doesn't have that same understanding. While we're not sure the precise form his understanding takes, we know he actively uses it in his defences, which is more than slightly worrying. I think Ripples here serves as a good jumping off point to engage with this underlying conflict.




Less seriously, on the matter of Void, Shu Yue has described themselves as a 'sculptor of empty things, waiting to be filled'; how are we supposed to blow up another auntie if we don't understand them :V
 
I don't think Xuan Shi using Isolation as a concept for defense is bad. Ling Qi uses it for offense. And with the Xuan Shi action, Void DOESN'T factor into things. I agree with the Isolation thing, but the part you're referencing for Void is for Mystery rather, our main Hidden concept that deals with questioning. And since concepts only get eaten when ranking them up, Void is very likely to go into Mystery even though people keep saying it'll go to Endings or Creation.



But I do agree that Ripples can work with Xuan Shi and Isolation. But I trying to connect in defiance of Isolation, reaching out to others and finding meaning, requires understanding, which Bastion brings too.

Anyway, I also agree with Void working with Shu Yue, which I why I think it works best with Eyes of Grudges, when we're actually getting a lesson from our darkness wraith mentor.

Plus, the whole point of Eyes of Grudges is that we dk not see the meaning behind people's actions. We don't see the grudges, the negative connections. That's why it works with our perception.

That works REALLY well with Mystery.

Mystery I
The first question is how to survive. The second is why

Mystery II
Starvation is privation of the body. Isolation is privation of the soul. Ignorance is privation of the mind.

Isolation has already explored privation of the soul, so Mystery, with its background, is more likely to work with Ignorance and privation of the mind. That works well with something that's meant to Improve our perception, with finding meaning in the Infinite dark. Isolation also works really well for that, because Eyes of Grudges is focused on negative connections, grudges, that break people away and end connections.

Plus learning from another mentor who's related to Void, and then taking lessons that's counter to their definition (something that they want) is how we exploded Zeqing. We'll need to follow the same process if we want it to happen again :p

Edit: Relevant quote

"You are not," Shu Yue agreed. "But, you do not peer behind the face. Most you meet are still the phantoms in your mist, insubstantial and fleeting. Even those who truly exist in your mind, you do not quite understand their drives, do you? Hence your misstep with the Young Miss, or further back the escalation of the conflict with the disciple Yan Renshu. Their thinking is opaque to you who has not the luxury of grudges."

Ling Qi swallowed her retort, and frowned. "I suppose."

"That will be the lesson, humans are petty creatures, that we are. We are dolls constructed from pride and grudges and fears. Understand those, and you will be one step closer to peering into the cipher behind another being's eyes. That is the first step of glimpsing worlds not your own," Shu Yue said.
 
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Hence why most arguments I saw try to paint it over isolation, creation, want, or persistence annoy me
I...either haven't seen those or they were understood entirely differently.

Isolation - Might come in handy for distinguishing Not Related To against Isolated From, but it seems to me that Void is but one tool to impose Isolation with. At best.

Creation - The Void might be a canvas to create upon, but Qi's current understanding is that you create when you have too much stuff. Maybe later, but if so it's going to make like Chaos into Motion.

Want - The Void is one of those things that seek to be filled, but you don't stop wanting more when you're more than nothing.

Persistence - Seems more like a Community/Isolation pair? Void can't subsume Persistence, its one of the things you Persist against.
 
If the idea is to get the most out of Ripples narratively, why don't we do it next turn with the Meizhen's action?

Because it doesn't actually engage with the Meizhen adventure at all, and would be a massive distraction at best? Lake Hei itself is irrelevant to Ling Qi, and second hand experience via Meizhen doesn't really help there.

Bastion would be a far better fit combined with adventuring with Meizhen and Suyin.
 
If the idea is to get the most out of Ripples narratively, why don't we do it next turn with the Meizhen's action?
Meizhen's(and Suyin's) action is more about exploring hazardous environments though? Not about meditations on the transience of existence and the meaning of non-existence. Perfect time for a perception or hazard resistance development.


As a side note, Void should be neat in terms of dispelling, whatever its working with.
 
Adhoc vote count started by EternalObserver on Jul 25, 2022 at 9:47 AM, finished with 350 posts and 153 votes.
 
Community IV (1/8): Family is only a knot of strong bonds, it is the small connections between people which build community. There was no line between love and obligation, not if both were true.

@yrsillar , I've been meaning to ask something about the text describing the Community aspect. Is it correct like this, or should it be more like...:
"Family is NOT only a knot of strong bonds (...)"
 
[X] Plan Wherein Lies Meaning
I've been convinced.

One thing I am curious about with Bastion is whether it could protect against the effects of stuff like Shenhua's aura or a Bai's fear aura, as long as they're not directly focused on us.
 
4 vote difference...there's still time to make a comeback.

Vote for effective Communication!
Vote for Neo-Weilu and mutual understanding between spirits and men!
Vote for building on what has been developed and continuing the line of thinking regarding Connections and our Way!

Vote for Protection!
Vote for preparation against any dangers in the fief survey or Dream!
Vote for helping Kongyou work with Xuan Shi and vice versa!

Vote for Bastion!
Vote for MoSS and using the Argent Vent bonus for its projects before it's gone!
Vote for [ ] Plan Chilly Winds of Change!

Hmm. While I can see your point, I disagree that Bastion doesn't work narratively.
  • I agree that Bastion doesn't have a strong tie to the political narrative this turn, even though when I voted for it, I didn't really consider it working for that. But I also don't really see it working for Ripples too, so meh. But if Bastion HAD to work for political stuff, then its tie to MoSS works best imo, since this art is literally about understanding and communication. Like, whenever LQ does a project, she always references the art it's connected to, so if you're looking for any with the political stuff so it still works

  • I completely disagree about Bastion not affecting our antics. Each time we've gone to the survey, the sites have gotten more and more dangerous. First Veins of Earrth and Saline Grotto, both low level with no dangers. Then Thunderhoof Mountain, with something so far above us (a place with a high chance of Indigo/Violet spirits) that it's pure, distilled stupidity to approach. Then Cathedral of Winds, thr Beavers, and the Labyrinth, which are stuff we can that bring a marginal bit of danger. Keep note that for the Labyrinth, our Sixth realm minder actually had to go check it out and confirm if we can actually clear it by ourselves. So an art that focuses on clearing environmental dangers completely fits.

  • For Sea of Dreams, I've always argued that MoSS bits on negotiation and spirit understanding with Xuan Shi and Kongyou. After some discussions on Discord, it's been highlighted that using Bastion for that is kinda stretching the meaning since it's one line in the description and since well, Kongyou is a people spirit instead of an environmental AoE spirit. Now, I can understand that. But that's ignoring that the environmental negation is only the MECHANICAL effect on the art, not what the art's meditations are focused on.
The meditations on helping spirits understand the harm they do and mitigating the effects of said harm are the actual philosophical aspects that creates that mechanical effect of the art, just like like our thoughts on BKSD, TREE, and Community added the buffs as a mechanical aspect. So, it can still work with the Kongyou and Xuan Shi relationship angle. And not in the "It'll protect us from Kongyou playing fuckfuck games!" way. Because ultimately, it's about how spirits can casually act cruelly because of their fixed Ways and helping them understand their actions

Like, you can maybe say that Kongyou knows exactly what they were doing in the Dream, even though they describe it as playing a game. But then you can also argue that Kongyou is a new bound muse who doesn't really understand a lot of things like humans do, like how, at first, Six didn't understand exactly how our emotions work or what death is and how it feels like, and a bunch of other small things. So...something that focuses on helping spirits understand the harm they cause works really well with helping a friend work with a nightmare spirit, or watching a friend try and work with a nightmare spirit.

But if we're ONLY focused on the mechanical bit of the art, it can still help against any dangers we face helps. I mean, we literally run into a Cyan+ spirit on our last Dream adventure.

  • I don't really see Bastion working with FSS+, but then again, I don't really see Ripples affecting FSS+ too. FSS+ is already narratively packed. It has a personal action tied to it. It has bonues from Jaromila and the Hui arts added to it. We have specific things to think about. Mainly, our insight. The only thing I can see tinging things so far is the direction of our Way and bringing understanding and connecting people, and Bastion and MoSS with that thread more than Ripples and SNR.
PS: I typed this all on my phone again and I'm too tired rn to read through, so kindly ignore any mispellings you see, or maybe bring them to my attention.

Okay, I've just finished attempting to understand the mechanics. Correct me if I'm wrong.

When we leave the sect, the main thing we're losing access to is the Argent Vent (Greater), which is most important for Balanced Projects - which only affects MoSS. Thus, it is advantageous to work on its two projects (Spirit Seeker VI, Raising the Bastion) as much as possible while we can.

We're also losing access to our Moon site (Silent Stones). Not sure about the Shattered Gaol since it's not physically part of the sect, but I think that turns out not to matter?

Falling Water Palace is development-locked, but we can still cultivate there? If not, then we are also out a Wood site (since Argent Vent helps everything).

On the other hand, for Wind projects we actually have a better site (Cathedral of Winds - assuming "+N", "+N XP", and "+N successes" are supposed to mean the same thing) at the fief. But the Shattered Gaol also gives the bonus to Spiritual Cultivation in general, so we should always spend some time there if we can? But wouldn't we be better off doing a non-Wind project there?

This implies that (although I'm not convinced on the other aspects, but it's one of the only 2 plans still viable)

[X] Plan Chilly Winds of Change

is better than

[] Plan Wherein Lies Meaning

I'm not entirely sure of the implications of /3 vs /5 vs /8 projects but I'm pretty sure we want to do as much MoSS regardless, while we can.

Okay so I agree that we're taking actions to fit our narratives.

So for our cultivation actions, this is what I see:
  • FSS+ with Hanyi and Idols and Ancestors

  • Since we've finished Dreaming, Laughing Wind pairs well with Skelunckle so that we can continue lessons with him since we're done with ALL our Dream arts apart from Dreaming Songstress, which is our Tribulation. LFWT Skelunckle is also a cultivator of Wind and LFWT; it's one of the reasons why he recognized us iirc. Sure, LFWT can work with others, but that's another thread, and we did tell him another story, and he owes us another, so I just think it works best with him.

  • Raising the Bastion paired with either the Survey or Sea of Dreams. I agree that Bastion works well with Cathedral of Winds, but I've already explained why I think it works best with the final Survey, based on how dangers increase with higher tiers. We have also used MoSS, though that was more the spirit seeker trait line when we visited the Beavers to talk to them.




Even if Bastion does not fit with Kongyou and Xuan Shi's relationship, there are other reasons to work on it. We're still going into the Dream, and there's a good chance we'll run into high realms there. Like with Su Ling's LQ Adventure and Madame Grey and the adventure where Ling Qi first used the compass and was nearly swallowed up by a time-loop and other spirits at the revelry.

  • And all this is ignoring Bastion, MoSS, and its emphasis on understanding between parties fit in with Ling Qi. I've already quoted them, and I'll do so again here, but first, I'll try to explain why it works so well.


Ling Qi wants to reach the Peak of Cultivation. She is starting to find what she wants to change in the world. But after looking at so many high realm cultivators, she understands that what she wants cannot be done alone. She understands that Isolation is the worst thing one can experience, and want to work toward bringing people together. You can see it in her Concepts. Isolation and Want, for Ling Qi, are primarily about reaching out to connect with people.





So over Threads, she's been developing her Way focused on Family, Community, and connecting with others. But she knows herself. She knows she is selfish and cannot care for everyone. So, she settles on bringing people together, to ensure that they fully express themselves and do not have to suffer Isolation due to misunderstandings. Enter Isolation IV:





So where am I going with all this? Well, Bastion is an excellent way to continue that line of thinking on our Way and actually apply it to another art and how we deal with spirits. MoSS works with that and continues that thread. It's about communicating clearly to prevent conflict between man and spirit that stems from misunderstanding. Bastion works with it. Higher spirits don't understand the effects of their actions. Raising the Bastion is focused on helping them understand that, thus mitigating their harmful environmental effects. LQ has been working towards her final goal throughout Threads, and now that we've reached the latter half of Green, I think it's best if we continue working towards that focus on Understanding and Expression bridging Isolation and Community.

  • We only have 3 turns left in the Sect, and without the Greater Argent Vent, we won't be able to cultivate MoSS without spending omake points. It's not a case of us doubling down. It's simply a matter of completing the action. And MoSS has another project after Bastion which has a high chance of requiring 8 XP to finish. This is one of the only times where we can actually fit in well during those 3 turns. I'm ignoring the Spirit Seeker quest because that's the social art trait line and Yrs said we're done with those.
Sure, there's Cathedral of Winds, but that's linked to Diviner's Eye, so Meizhen and going on an adventure with friends. I believe Grinning Wind works best with that. We'll also have to complete FSS+, which will have like 4-5 available projects minimum. Then there's our tribulation, which we really shouldn't put off, and Hidden Scribe, which pairs nicely with Paying Respects. So this is one of the last turns where it can really fit while not wasting a lot of omake points.

And lastly, Bastion will finally finally FINALLY let us crystallize our understanding of Protection.



I also want to add VOID to our Domain, but once we get it, we really don't have any way to get XP for it. However, Protection has already been added to our Domain. We already have thoughts on it. I believe we should finally crystallize them and gain concept levels from them, as we did recently with Home.


Now, onto Ripples. Ripples does not fit with our Endings concept. It's not about how we affect other people. It's not about Endings. Rather, it's about Isolation.





Ripples is from SNR, which is about Lake Hei. Lake Hei is a mirror, reflecting the sky and Earth in its infinite depths. Ripples references this, and how to find meaning in the darkness if Lake Hei when you embody it and become such a mirror. It's asking "Where does meaning rise when you are Lake Hei, a mirror, a dark VOID. What meaning of the Isolation it brings?

Well, we already have an understanding of Isolation, when you're Cold on the STREETS, from our G5 breakthrough: The meaning behind the suffering that's Isolation is to build connections formed from Understanding so that you won't be lonely again. So doing Ripples and Void to bring yet another understanding when we just got a really good one for FSS+ will just muddy things up. It'll ignore what we've already reached to go find a new metaphor for Isolation and its meaning so that VOID can be part of it. Just like with SoI and FSS+ and our understanding of Winter.

To LQ, Isolation is tied to Cold and Winter, we already have an understanding of that (Isolation) and how it connects to our burgeoning Way. We're bringing said understanding to the creation of FSS+ to crystallize it. Trying to add yet another interpretation of the meaning of Isolation, one related to the Lake Hei and the Isolation you feel as you embody such an implacable mirror, when we're already using the one from our breakthrough to work on FSS+ would be a disservice to Isolation IV.

And really, adding a whole new understanding and approach when you're about to start a project is not proper planning. You either expand the meaning BEFORE you work on something, to have a richer understanding to work in during development, or you do it AFTER when you've set your baseline and done what you planned so that you can fully explore things with an original goal in mind. Fortunately for us, we expanded our understanding of Isolation and its meaning for FSS+ BEFORE its creation this turn, with the Turn 15 finale. So Ripples and the meaning of Isolation it brings should come AFTER we've created FSS+.

That's why I think it's best to work on Bastion and MoSS, which will build on Isolation IV and the idea of reaching out to others to fight Isolation and suffering (negative effects) with understanding (showing spirits how their actions affect things) and connections, instead of doing Ripples while we're creating FSS+

But I digress. The point is, Ripples is about Isolation and not even our understanding and context for Isolation. It's not Endings. If you want Endings, rather pick [] Plan Meaning Is Depth.

So vote []Plan Chilly Winds of Change!!!

Edit: Changed some things because I was unhappy with how I worded things.

So, I've seen a few comments on Bastion not fitting the turn or requiring a hostile/dangerous spirit to show up there isn't narrative space for. I kind of feel like people are missing the concept for the mechanics, but also being too rigid on the mechanics too, maybe?

With Bastion and spirits, I'm not sure strictly speaking the higher realm spirit involved needs to be, like, conscious or staring at us with an avatar or something? Conveniently, all dangerous environments are actually basically spirits(non-dangerous environments too). Now, obviously I think diffuse spirits that don't even, like, register the surroundings they're crashing into generally aren't going to be super responsive to us subtly singing "hey don't do that it makes me sad " at them. But broadly speaking, worth remembering that communing with a spirit doesn't require a spirit to actually converse with us, and a simple ask like "no ouchies pls" is potentially a simpler hurdle to mount than conversation, depending on the spirit. Basically, we should be able to see the tech in practice even without an identifiable walking talking grumpy spirit to mitigate.

Also seen arguments that Bastion doesn't fit with the Xuan Shi adventure because it wouldn't work on Kongyou. That's true -Kongyou isn't ignorant or indifferent, they're overtly malicious on purpose while understanding it's a dick move, the dick move being the point- but I think it also misses the conceptual underpinning of Bastion as a tech and the unreal place Kongyou's coming from.

Part of the tech's deal is it lends spirits a little sliver of human perspective to put the impact of their behaviour into a broader context, so they hopefully turn down the "casual proximity murder" dial. Kongyou's pretty knowledgeable about humans, but they're inexperienced with the actual human condition in actual living and breathing humans, because that's not the context of their experience. Being born from the Dream skews one's perspective quite a bit, like we saw with Sixiang having to grow to understand what death actually is/means. And this is where I think people are fixating on the mechanics too much.

Yeah, Kongyou doesn't have damaging environmental traits (so far as we know). But that just means we won't be targeting Kongyou with the technique. Conceptually, it's still totally reasonable for Kongyou to be impacted by the technique being used in their proximity. Not fully, maybe not even significantly, but even just a small tweak has the potential to be interesting and drag out information that gives us a more complete understanding of Kongyou's perspective. Which would be fun!

Basically, we've been shifting towards narrative treatment of arts and such for a reason. No need to cleave too closely to the strict, narrow mechanics of something when considering its relevance in a situation. Vibes have a power of their own. While there's no guarantee on any specific speculation on relevance I might come up with, like the Xuan Shi adventure or touching on Kongyou stuff, I don't foresee any real difficulty in finding somewhere for Bastion to show its stuff.

Yes, Bastion is for better communication of spirits, to build upon Isolation IV and extend it to correct misunderstandings between humans and them. It specifically talks about giving them a stronger understanding of their effects in the human context.



For the mitigating higher realm spirits, that's only the MECHANICAL aspect of the project, not what the project actually meditates on. It's the consequence, not the cause.

Take Ripples for example. For the argument for it, people bring up its description for why she should do it.



Its meditations are on Isolation based on the dark Void of Lake Hei and the meaning behind it. Said meditations bring a new metaphor of Isolation with Lake Hei in it, which has the mechanical consequence of giving us Void, since Lake Hei is well, an infinite dark void.

It is unfair to say to Bastion only affects the negative effects of higher spirits while ignoring what the actual text for the project says and then doing the opposite for Ripples ie, using the actual text description too when arguing for it.

And even if you're going to focus on the mechanical part, Raising the Bastion is an Alteration of MoSS. I'm not sure about the previous system, but ever since the new system was introduced, Ling Qi always thinks of an Art as a whole, and how its techniques and her understanding of them play into that before the alteration. So picking Bastion will still focus on the thread of effective communication and understanding that MoSS has and our recent breakthrough to G5 have given us.

Quotes from previous art alterations since the introduction of the new system.





And Spirit Seeker VI is a social trait questline. If you check the front page, it's grouped with the other traits that our social arts level up. I fully expect it to disappear and be integrated into actions like the other social traits.
 
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Man, it's going to be so funny if we just straight up fail to get the Void concept.
Not like it's gonna do much but stay undeveloped for a few turns before getting absorbed into an actual Ling Qi concept.
 
The arguments against Bastion have convinced me
[X] Plan Chilly Winds of Change
to vote for Bastion.

[X] Plan Cold Wisdom
Still approvaling Cold wisdom but not really expcting anykind of quick change there.
 
Man, it's going to be so funny if we just straight up fail to get the Void concept.
Not like it's gonna do much but stay undeveloped for a few turns before getting absorbed into an actual Ling Qi concept.

I mean, if we get it my hope is that it gets cannibalized by another Concept. That's a good thing and strengthens the eater (which would probably be...Isolation or maybe Want? Strengthening our existing concepts is good).
 
I mean, if we get it my hope is that it gets cannibalized by another Concept. That's a good thing and strengthens the eater (which would probably be...Isolation or maybe Want? Strengthening our existing concepts is good).

I disagree that Void is going to get cannibalised or subsumed by another concept like Chaos was by Motion - if that's what was intended to happen, then We Are But Ripples shouldn't even be an action at all.

What I think is more likely is that it's distinct enough to stand on its own, clarifying/ making explicit Ling Qi's thoughts on Nothingness and existentialism. It's very nihilist, but the idea that meaning and purpose is something that you yourself create (rather than anything inherent) does resonate with the rest of her concepts and understanding, as well as her role as an artist and musician.
 
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