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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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Adhoc vote count started by EternalObserver on Jul 25, 2022 at 5:13 AM, finished with 311 posts and 150 votes.
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For goodness sake, Bastion is just such a clumsy pick for this turn, at least pick something that can fit in with the rest of the narrative instead of something you have to stretch so far you can see daylight out of it.

As things stand, the general flow of the turn looks like it's going to be "FSS+/Xuan Shi Adventure/Fief Survey/Preliminary Summit Setup", to limit bouncing around (Starting from the Sect in Reality and fanning outwards from there). Ripples can comfortably fit in the connecting tissue between FSS+ and the Xuan Shi Adventure, Laughing Wind can fit in the tissue between the Xuan Shi Adventure and the Fief Survey, and we're all good. Bastion literally does not fit anywhere in this turn though, which means it's going to--at best--have to be hamfistedly slid in during Fief Survey as a side paragraph or something, which doesn't really give it a chance to breathe.

And people are going to complain about it, doubly so as so many people got super invested in their headcanon of how Bastion actually fits into the Zeqing reminiscence thing, and it's going to make everyone miserable if that wins and then doesn't actually meet their expectations.

I mean, at the end of the day, Bastion isn't going anywhere, and there's going to be lots of places where it'd fit nicely. Ripples fits nicely now, and will struggle to fit later, I don't see why Bastion has to win as soon as possible when we're still a ways off from that kind of negotiation, as it's hardly some kind of absurd "Spirits can't hurt me and mine!" spell either.
 
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Chlof said:
I'd rather not vote at all if this is the kind of rhetoric it'll bring.
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I mean.

Raising the Bastion is about providing a shelter so as to better communicate with spirits without being harmed by their mere presence. That's a good technique, I agree that it's really good and we want it!

But this turn does not have negotiation and communication with powerful spirits on the docket, which means that yrsillar has to somehow manage to finangle a reason for Ling Qi to focus on that routine. It'd be one thing if we were going to Zeqing's Successor, who was so powerful that the peak is a place approaching absolute zero--but her Successor hasn't manifested yet, and shouldn't for some years yet. We'd have warning if that was the case.

Our Survey is not about going into dangerous places alone, it's about identifying potential assets and resources. The Summit preparation isn't about talking to Spirits, it's about smoothing over ruffles in a Second Contact scenario, and the Liminal Journey's main danger is someone who will Cause Problems On Purpose if they have to, not diving into a dissolution storm so we can talk to its eye.

Raising the Bastion would be a great pick if it was paired with, say, the Abyssal Ossuary, or the Starlit Labyrinth, because those are both moving into the territory of chonky spirits who are clashing with one another, and we need to ward off those emanations. But we're not doing anything like that this turn, which means the onus falls on yrsillar to squeeze it in somewhere, which is going to have to either delay a greater story arc so he can write in a segue where those skills have a chance to shine, or it's only going to be a paragraph somewhere in a transition section saying "And also Ling Qi studied this."

Given the large investment people have made in explaining to us why Raising the Bastion is actually a very valuable thing, and the most resonant thing we can do with our current plot so far. I can see a great deal of disappointment emerging if it doesn't meet their expectations, and I honestly, genuinely can't see how it achieves this..
 
[X] Plan Wherein Lies Meaning

The problem with Bastion is, and always has been, that its parameters demand a specific kind of encounter. And there's a hesitation to commit to shaping any given action to fit Bastion's needs when there's other thematic priorities in the paired action. What you really want is an action with a reasonable guarantee of antagonism and/or resting danger from the spiritual environment. More than that, you ideally want the nature of that threat to resonate specifically with the diplomacy and mutual understanding vibes of Bastion. Synergy, you know? Overlapping narratives which don't step on each other's toes but empower each other.

This turns projects aren't quite that. First off, the Xuan Shi adventure has, well, quite a bit else going on in it. Yeah, there's Kongyou there being Nightmare-y, but there's also the recruitment effort with Xuan Shi and Zhengui there. Zhengui's a big surprise, and it implies to me that there's already a Plan for the action. Introducing additional variables to an important and pre-planned narrative weave is something I consistently rail against, so it's only fair that I speak out here. Risking an awkward diversion for the sake of Bastion during the adventure with Xuan Shi has a very real chance of diverting, or just starving of screen-time, some important character development opportunities.

The other reason not to place Bastion in this turn is simply because there's a project we're not taking here that pairs with it great. The Nightmare Tribulation action! Nightmares are casually malicious/dangerous for humans, kind of without even thinking about it. It's just what they are. Which fits the needs of Bastion pretty well. But more than that, Ling Qi(and Sixiang to an extent) have this kneejerk antipathy with Nightmare stuff, which puts a spirit diplomacy project in an interesting narrative context. There's a lack of understanding or reaching out on both sides there, isn't there? And doesn't that mirror some of the broader diplomatic concerns Ling Qi is turning herself to face-down, on the scale of empires? Seizing on a personal barrier to communication with a hostile force, Ling Qi coming to realize she needs to open herself to engaging with the nightmares of the world too, is a really cool way to add immense narrative punch to Bastion, which otherwise plays out on some random spirit somewhere who doesn't truly matter or mean anything to Ling Qi's journey.

Bastion is okay in this turn, despite carrying some risks. But it's just okay, when next turn it could be amaaaazing.
 
Alectai said:
I mean.

Raising the Bastion is about providing a shelter so as to better communicate with spirits without being harmed by their mere presence. That's a good technique, I agree that it's really good and we want it!

But this turn does not have negotiation and communication with powerful spirits on the docket, which means that yrsillar has to somehow manage to finangle a reason for Ling Qi to focus on that routine. It'd be one thing if we were going to Zeqing's Successor, who was so powerful that the peak is a place approaching absolute zero--but her Successor hasn't manifested yet, and shouldn't for some years yet. We'd have warning if that was the case.

Our Survey is not about going into dangerous places alone, it's about identifying potential assets and resources. The Summit preparation isn't about talking to Spirits, it's about smoothing over ruffles in a Second Contact scenario, and the Liminal Journey's main danger is someone who will Cause Problems On Purpose if they have to, not diving into a dissolution storm so we can talk to its eye.

Raising the Bastion would be a great pick if it was paired with, say, the Abyssal Ossuary, or the Starlit Labyrinth, because those are both moving into the territory of chonky spirits who are clashing with one another, and we need to ward off those emanations. But we're not doing anything like that this turn, which means the onus falls on yrsillar to squeeze it in somewhere, which is going to have to either delay a greater story arc so he can write in a segue where those skills have a chance to shine, or it's only going to be a paragraph somewhere in a transition section saying "And also Ling Qi studied this."

Given the large investment people have made in explaining to us why Raising the Bastion is actually a very valuable thing, and the most resonant thing we can do with our current plot so far. I can see a great deal of disappointment emerging if it doesn't meet their expectations, and I honestly, genuinely can't see how it achieves this..
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I do not have a problem with the specifics. I have a problem with the idea that a.Voting a certain way will actively make the quest worse and b. This entitles anyone to scold people over what they vote for, because they're going to make the story worse. It's an attitude I've only seen in this quest and I always kick myself whenever I even think of participating because it always inevitably ends like this.
 
AbeoLogos said:
The other reason not to place Bastion in this turn is simply because there's a project we're not taking here that pairs with it great. The Nightmare Tribulation action! Nightmares are casually malicious/dangerous for humans, kind of without even thinking about it. It's just what they are. Which fits the needs of Bastion pretty well. But more than that, Ling Qi(and Sixiang to an extent) have this kneejerk antipathy with Nightmare stuff, which puts a spirit diplomacy project in an interesting narrative context. There's a lack of understanding or reaching out on both sides there, isn't there? And doesn't that mirror some of the broader diplomatic concerns Ling Qi is turning herself to face-down, on the scale of empires? Seizing on a personal barrier to communication with a hostile force, Ling Qi coming to realize she needs to open herself to engaging with the nightmares of the world too, is a really cool way to add immense narrative punch to Bastion, which otherwise plays out on some random spirit somewhere who doesn't truly matter or mean anything to Ling Qi's journey.

Bastion is okay in this turn, despite carrying some risks. But it's just okay, when next turn it could be amaaaazing.
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So, the thing is, here, that I personally consider it important to get stuff before it's needed. It still need to be in a turn where it can hopefully show off a bit, but it's very important, for narrative and character reasons, to not train an art just as we need it.

This is doubly true because if we want to use Bastion as a fun plot point during the nightmare tribulation (where it could be amazing), either Yrs is forced to introduce Bastion before said arc in the turn, locking in stuff in a way that might create issues elsewhere, or he just doesn't notice the synergy (or doesn't agree with it) and we end up learning Bastion *after* the nightmare arc.
 
Guys come one let's do Ripples. We've only have a few more turns with the sect and it's Argent Vent +10% to projects effect which is very important for fudging the rolls for Void.

Some may argue that Void doesn't fit Ling Qi and has no space in her concept list and to be honest you'd be partially right since I imagine it not fitting perfectly or neatly is why we have to roll for it instead of just getting it for action. But that still means Ling Qi can grok her head around Void enough to get it if she tries hard enough and gets the right kind of enlightenment. So by the fact we can possibly get it means that it can be helpful for Ling Qi.

But some might say there's a lot of things that can help Ling Qi why is Void important in comparison to those? Well I'll tell you, Void is really cool. Sure there's more about Ling Qi internalizing Blank/Empty Space as opposed to the Positive Space of Community and the Negative Space of Isolation and how Ling Qi can have a more complete frame of reference for how these concepts evolve and advance. Or maybe it can be about using Void as figuring out the meaning of nothing or the meaningless and how that connects to Ling Qi's understanding of Mystery? Or maybe it about Want and how reaching out is to want to fill the void of our souls where community and friendship are born? Really Void could be any of those or even none of them I just think it's a cool concept that's worth trying to get and this is our best chance at getting it.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Arkeus on Jul 25, 2022 at 6:07 AM, finished with 320 posts and 150 votes.
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Arkeus said:
So, the thing is, here, that I personally consider it important to get stuff before it's needed. It still need to be in a turn where it can hopefully show off a bit, but it's very important, for narrative and character reasons, to not train an art just as we need it.

This is doubly true because if we want to use Bastion as a fun plot point during the nightmare tribulation (where it could be amazing), either Yrs is forced to introduce Bastion before said arc in the turn, locking in stuff in a way that might create issues elsewhere, or he just doesn't notice the synergy (or doesn't agree with it) and we end up learning Bastion *after* the nightmare arc.
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All reasonable points, and I even agree to a degree!

In my perfect world of worlds, Bastion would be introduced as something Ling Qi cultivated in prep for the tribulation, say 95% mastery of the project. Ling Qi consistently enters encounters with that kind of "basically mastered but not field tested" grasp on techs while walking into serious real-world situations. Not that big a deal. So, while poking around in the nightmare, I'd want it to not be effective, owing to anti-nightmare bias. This adds tension and basically acts as fuel for the main thrust of the arc, which is whatever advanced insight(probably?) she'll be working towards in it. When she does have that breakthrough of understanding, Bastion would be able to work, but it almost doesn't matter at that point. It's what Ling Qi learns that's her true asset. Bastion would just be a prop borrowing a little bit of narrative prominence.

Now, obviously, yeah there's no way to guarantee that's the way yrs takes things. Good chance he even has a better idea~! Because there's a solid chance I'm up my own ass too far to see clearly with this brainchild of mine.

But I think when we compare things to taking Bastion this turn, that gamble turns out to not be a risk at all? If yrsillar has Ling Qi handle Bastion cultivation first, on some other scenario in the turn, then it won't be worse than it will be on this turn, which is just okay for it. And if Ling Qi does Bastion after the Nightmare Tribulation, then it can draw on whatever kind of reconciliation of perspective she had with the Nightmare side of Dream, earlier, which I think still works out as a really nice narrative beat.

Basically, I think it works out any which way, at least compared to taking it this turn, which doesn't have any amazing advantage. 👍

Edit: forgot to say, the aversion to same-turn training to fill a need is reasonably, honestly, and not something I have a guaranteed fix for. But I'm basically cool with Bastion coming after Nightmare Trib in the turn, which I think would address the narrative concerns there?
 
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AbeoLogos said:
But I think when we compare things to taking Bastion this turn, that gamble turns out to not be a risk at all? If yrsillar has Ling Qi handle Bastion cultivation first, on some other scenario in the turn, then it won't be worse than it will be on this turn, which is just okay for it. And if Ling Qi does Bastion after the Nightmare Tribulation, then it can draw on whatever kind of reconciliation of perspective she had with the Nightmare side of Dream, earlier, which I think still works out as a really nice narrative beat.

Basically, I think it works out any which way, at least compared to taking it this turn, which doesn't have any amazing advantage. 👍

Edit: forgot to say, the aversion to same-turn training to fill a need is reasonably, honestly, and not something I have a guaranteed fix for. But I'm basically cool with Bastion coming after Nightmare Trib in the turn, which I think would address the narrative concerns there?
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I think there is a reason Worfing is a thing :p

Basically, establishing Bastion as something that actually somewhat works this turns can, in fact, make it not working as it should next turn, during the tribulation, a much more interesting deal. That, and it means it actually has a good showing! While its only showing being "not working" makes for sad Bastion.

Getting it post-tribulation does have a nice "we fucked up, let's correct it" narrative beat, but I kind of dislike preparing a "we fucked up" arc on purpose :D
 
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Trying to come up with a shitpost of why Void can totally help make Bastion better... Obviously by mitigating the environmental effects we are bringing things closer to a neutral Void of not being too extreme for us to live but also still being comfortable to the spirit. Cause let's say we're talking to Ragnaros and we use Bastion to keep all that lava heat from burning us. Where does that heat go since obviously energy cannot be created or destroyed? Yeah that's right the heat goes into SPACE the Void! And we know from Starcraft that the Void can do- (this is the point I stop since I don't actually know Starcraft lore)
 
Arkeus said:
I think there is a reason Worfing is a thing :p

Basically, establishing Bastion as something that actually somewhat works this turns can, in fact, make it not working as it should next turn, during the tribulation, a much more interesting deal.
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Yeah but honestly we've got two popular projects here, and when you compare them one wants this turn's slot more than the other one wants it. And on top of that, I think the post-tribulation Bastion has more narrative resonance than anything likely to happen if it's in this turn, nevermind my too-fancy fantasy. So it kind of works better on both fronts if we order Ripples first, here this turn.
 
AbeoLogos said:
Yeah but honestly we've got two popular projects here, and when you compare them one wants this turn's slot more than the other one wants it. And on top of that, I think the post-tribulation Bastion has more narrative resonance than anything likely to happen if it's in this turn, nevermind my too-fancy fantasy. So it kind of works better on both fronts if we order Ripples first, here this turn.
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Am I missing something? I don't see any reason to want Ripple this turn at all that's not trying to give a direction to FSS+. Maybe "if we get Ripple now we have time to develop the Void concept by the time we do Depth or get the SNR insight", but, huh. Not sure that's the argument either.

Post-tribulation Bastion might very well be the best resonance place for it, as it turns it from "a tech to take to prep for the tribulation" into "I have learned why not taking that tech is painful", but I don't think as players it should be our role to set us up for failure narrative plot beat. As in, I'm sure a lot of people think it's our role, but I don't like it :p
 
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Arkeus said:
Am I missing something? I don't see any reason to want Ripple this turn at all that's not trying to give a direction to FSS+. Maybe "if we get Ripple now we have time to develop the Void concept by the time we do Depth or get the SNR insight", but, huh. Not sure that's the argument either.
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People like Ripples and they think it vibes with FSS+ tonally, so they think it's a broadly decent fit for the same turn. Ripples is also way, way more popular than the rest of SNR put together. I don't read that much of an organized agenda into any of it. Hopes from certain people, certainly, but besides Ripples SNR is basically dead imo. We just don't got the time, and it's just not that great a fit. "Default option for combat role" and "not completely objectionable" is cutting it less and less as timetables and consequences of the more narratively involved, and lengthy, art system are becoming clear.
 
Arkeus said:
Am I missing something? I don't see any reason to want Ripple this turn at all that's not trying to give a direction to FSS+.
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I don't understand this line of thought*:
"Doing ripple this turn will influence FSS+ because they share some narrative space, so we should do Bastion because it doesn't share any narrative space with FSS+"



(*not trying to pick on Arkeus, he's just the most recent post)
 
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I mean, trying to influence FSS+ with Ripples would be wholly inappropriate. But it's also not super likely. If nothing else, the natural progression from the end of last turn is to go poke Hanyi about Hanyi stuff, and that leads directly into FSS+.
 
Killer_Whale said:
I don't understand this line of thought*:
"Doing ripple this turn will influence FSS+ bacause they share some narrative space, so we should do Bastion because it doesn't share any narrative space with FSS+"



(*not trying to pick on Arkeus, he's just the most recent post)
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I really want FSS+ to be the produce of the past year, and to stand on its own. No "shared narrative space" with a new concept that we will just pick up now.

Just... make FSS+ stands on its own, with its own strength. We had a ingame year (and like 3 IRL year) of building it up already. No last minute "So, I have a good idea".
AbeoLogos said:
People like Ripples and they think it vibes with FSS+ tonally, so they think it's a broadly decent fit for the same turn. Ripples is also way, way more popular than the rest of SNR put together. I don't read that much of an organized agenda into any of it. Hopes from certain people, certainly, but besides Ripples SNR is basically dead imo. We just don't got the time, and it's just not that great a fit. "Default option for combat role" and "not completely objectionable" is cutting it less and less as timetables and consequences of the more narratively involved, and lengthy, art system are becoming clear.
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I mean, imo Bastion tonally vibe with prepping for nightmare tribulation next turn, and this turn vibe with the climax of fief survey. Both those points are imo a much stronger "this fits this turn" goal than the ripple vibing with FSS+, though that might be because I don't want ripple to vibe with FSS+, and I'm not confident it on how it would be handled narratively.
 
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I just find it weird, or rather hypocritical, that Soul of Ice was discarded based on an arbitrary difference between "expanding" and "advancing" Linq Qi's understanding of Winter and Cold.
Yet now the discussion is centered about how Ripples will positively affect FSS+.
Isn't adding a whole new concept far more "muddling" than exploring other facets of the same concepts?
And the critics against Bastion are both that it won't influence FSS+ or that it will influence it wrong. Didn't we want to avoid influencing FSS+?

It's really a shame that Bear God didn't gain enough prominence.
Maybe there is still time for Plan Step by Step to take over?
 
Killer_Whale said:
I don't understand this line of thought*:
"Doing ripple this turn will influence FSS+ bacause they share some narrative space, so we should do Bastion because it doesn't share any narrative space with FSS+"



(*not trying to pick on Arkeus, he's just the most recent post)
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That's mostly because most arguments for ripples try to paste it to eeverything.
Only argument I couldn't find a response to was that it helps us ponder the orb meaning of life...

As for Bastion not fitting the narrative, that true for ripples as well.... We only have the outlines with the turn plans, and There don't need to be a spirit encounter for it to fit. As Abeo put it, it could be worked out but not field tested, but that doedoesn't hurts it.
 
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