Um, sure― but they fill similar mechanical and tactical roles in fights.
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
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Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
We canonically have bizarrely high qi compared to our peers and our Arts are extraordinarily more efficient than those of the people we fight. Besides the whole point of cultivation is to commit to a particularly outlook; if LQ doesn't trust in her ability to inflict attrition on her opponents to carry the day, she's already doomed to failure.
Edit: LQ could be turned into a combo cultivator, who has a specific list of techniques they need to use to unlock the big finisher that ends the fight. But that's not LQ: she fights by slowly inflicting attrition on her opponents and being resilient enough that they can't burst her down before they run out of qi. The more we specialize in the latter, the stronger it will become.
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Yes, we have high qi compared to our current peers, but they will not always be our peers as we grow more powerful. Already, we've seen a highly effective regen strategy from the Sun, and while our mist effectively counters that, it's highly unlikely that they're the only people with a regen strategy. We will get hosed by those people, if all we have in our arsenal is control effects.
As for the effects of choosing to have a finisher on LQ's way? I think having a way to end fights isn't going to be nearly as negatively impactful as what you seem to be implying.
Part of being a control fighter is having a way to decisively close out fights. She doesn't need to be a DPS specialist, but she needs something that does significant burst damage.
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It is probably true that a finisher based strategy would be better against the Sun than an attrition one but, if we try both, we have no chance at victory at all. They would simply outheal our attrition and then tank our finisher.
A cultivator who refuses to commit is one doomed to mediocrity.
For a mathematical explanation, we drain a certain amount of qi per round A. Our opponents regen a certain amount of qi per round B. In order for qi drain to help a finisher at all, B must be less than A. However, if that's the case, then they would eventually fall before our qi drain regardless. This works for any type of resource. As such we have a strong incentive to try to invest as much as we can into depleting their resources, while investing enough into defense to give us the time for our drain to work.
As we invest more and more into a finisher, this will inherently weaken our ability to drain resources per turn, increasing the chance that they will simply outheal us. At that point we lose our main weapon and are guaranteed to lose.
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dpara
slightly confused ascendant
Generally I think not picking Su Ling this turn, we'll be spending most of the time out of Sect and adding her would cut it kinda short.
I believe Su Ling deserves every opportunity to be stuck in a nightmare hellscape dreamworld with us for an entire turn.
I believe Su Ling deserves every opportunity to be stuck in a nightmare hellscape dreamworld with us for an entire turn.
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- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
Which she has.
Idk, I'm much more sympathetic to your opponents' arguments because they seem like they are trying to build a self-consistent way, and you seem to be trying to put together a combat toolbox that will be effective fighting people without domains.
It seems like at a certain point, when people start opening their second dantions for example, that the philosophical coherence and heft of a cultivator becomes more important than the completeness of their technique kit, and I'd prefer to build to that.
It's why aesthetics matters on a surface level, but on a deeper one, unless your way is that of the perfect counter, committing to an approach is better than covering all facings.
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See, I just don't understand this reasoning, since we've seen a coherent style that focused on both resource regen and dps (the Sun). We know it's possible to have a complex style that combines traits, so why, in your mind, is there a delineation between building a style that focuses on control and having a single finisher for opponents that would otherwise outpace our drain/debuff effects with damage?
That's an interesting way to frame the discussion, because I feel like I'm arguing for a more coherent style that isn't trying to do anything but be an effective control fighter. To me, that means controlling the flow of battle through debuffs and obstacles, and having an ace to quickly end opponents that don't succumb to those fast enough.
Yeah, my bad.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Okay okay now hear me out on this one
[] Dreaming of Family (AKA Plan dump everything into Community Conceptual Project)
- [][Cultivation] Dreaming (11/3) with bonuses from Weaver of Tails, Hou Zhuang, Silent Stones
- [][Cultivation] Raising the Bastion (5/5) with bonuses from Argent Vent
- [][Cultivation] Garden of Mists (8/5) with bonuses from Hou Zhuang, Argent Domain
- [][Professional] Hou Zhuang's Gift 1 of 3
- [][Professional] Adoption Vetting
- [][Personal] Weaver of Tails
What will this do for us Combat wise? Basically nothing! Will this help us sneak around and steal? Probably not!
But do you know what it does give us?
Great theming!
We help Su Ling with her troubles that stem from her family(or heritage at least), it gets us closer to building up our new family by bringing in Yu Nuan, it gets our Community Conceptual Project up to level 4.
But what about gay snek? What about TREE? I hear you say. To which I offer this; Wouldn't it be better to do TREE after we have actually experienced TREE? Wouldn't it be better to talk to snek after letting her at least process this a little bit like the good friend we should be?
But honestly I think the theming of all of this combined would be nice to see all together.
[] Dreaming of Family (AKA Plan dump everything into Community Conceptual Project)
- [][Cultivation] Dreaming (11/3) with bonuses from Weaver of Tails, Hou Zhuang, Silent Stones
- [][Cultivation] Raising the Bastion (5/5) with bonuses from Argent Vent
- [][Cultivation] Garden of Mists (8/5) with bonuses from Hou Zhuang, Argent Domain
- [][Professional] Hou Zhuang's Gift 1 of 3
- [][Professional] Adoption Vetting
- [][Personal] Weaver of Tails
What will this do for us Combat wise? Basically nothing! Will this help us sneak around and steal? Probably not!
But do you know what it does give us?
Great theming!
We help Su Ling with her troubles that stem from her family(or heritage at least), it gets us closer to building up our new family by bringing in Yu Nuan, it gets our Community Conceptual Project up to level 4.
But what about gay snek? What about TREE? I hear you say. To which I offer this; Wouldn't it be better to do TREE after we have actually experienced TREE? Wouldn't it be better to talk to snek after letting her at least process this a little bit like the good friend we should be?
But honestly I think the theming of all of this combined would be nice to see all together.
- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
While I might, very grudgingly, admit that BSDK doesn't perfectly mesh with our other aesthetics, it themes of home, war, and power are to juicy for me to ignore and its purpose of being a enormous summoning provider is too important.
The biggest upside to BKSD is that it is fire and forget. For PLR we first summon things, and then have to spend qi to actually get them to do stuff. Upon summoning BKSD creates an army ready to do army things. It even has a look out sir feature.
PLR has powerful effects for sure, but those effects are something we need to activate and only last a stunt. BKSD is a much better summon generator in that regards. Fire and forget is truly wonderful when you are trying to lay effect after effect on people.
The biggest upside to BKSD is that it is fire and forget. For PLR we first summon things, and then have to spend qi to actually get them to do stuff. Upon summoning BKSD creates an army ready to do army things. It even has a look out sir feature.
PLR has powerful effects for sure, but those effects are something we need to activate and only last a stunt. BKSD is a much better summon generator in that regards. Fire and forget is truly wonderful when you are trying to lay effect after effect on people.
Drop the ace to quickly end fights for moar dots and you get a significantly more practical and useful build.
We cannot get an ace that will quickly end fights that doesn't take a ton of setup time. Period. Full Stop. It is not an option, so don't try to advocate it; trying to buy one anyway will come at the cost of the entire rest of our build and still fail versus any sufficiently hard target.
Because being a hard target has consistently been cheaper to achieve than single-attack damage: see Ling Qi herself.
Given the cultivator fights we've seen, this gets worse, not better, as we get higher in cultivation; there's simply no good way to kill a cultivator quickly.
It's the difference in resources, I think. The Sun is a ducal clan with the support of the Bloody Jungle's overmind. They have the resources, the information, the support network and, most of all the inertia.
We are literally building from scratch.
And of someone out heals/damages our drain and defenses, a stronger finisher won't do anything to them either.
Up until recently Call to Ending was exactly that ace, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. It only recently started to fall behind our cultivation level. That's what this entire discussion was about, whether it makes sense to focus on yet more control tools (by upgrading BKSD) versus focusing on making sure our already extant finisher doesn't become obsolete against opponents on our level (FSS successor art).
Nothing you said really applies to this discussion, since the pivot is not whether a finisher works against people at our cultivation level (it does; we have witnessed that). The pivot is whether only having control options (specifically, those options provided by an improved BKSD) is better than having a finisher for when control just can't quite get there (a.k.a. fighting people like Ji Rong).
The point isn't to end fights quickly it's to have a finishing strike when they're at their weakest to end the fight definitively instead of giving them time. A long setup is fine it's the end of the song.
Call to Ending requires a whole bunch of status effects inflicted and self-buffs put up to actually give that really nice output. It is not a "let's end this quickly" ability, it's the final move in a big nasty combo.
Ling Qi has invested in being tough. Ling Qi has invested in stacking debuffs. Ling Qi has invested in ramp. The disadvantage we've taken to pay for everything Ling Qi does is that, when we're doing the beat down, our target can see it coming - and has time to try and disengage and run away.
Someone heavily invested in mobility and short peaks of power, e. g. a mounted lancer, would probably be the closest thing we've got to a specialized counter. That, or fucking artillery.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
But "effective control fighter" is something of a trap thought of that way- she isn't effective at a higher level because she has the right grab-bag of techniques, it's because all of her techniques tie together into a foggy winter night, which is a very specific and evocative domain. Her combat can be said to be her wielding the word Suppression, making an opponent's actions ineffective while slowly tiring them out and draining then down until they cannot act.
Ice, searing cold, and a terrifying menagerie of summons for enemies, campfires and cool supportive hands for allies, and Ling Qi as the wind making music through it all. This fits some things in well- clear stars and smooth, cold lakes; but not others- summer thunderstorms or abstract mathematics.
Right now we are building a domain. How big and how flexible it can be while remaining consistent to it's internal logic is what determines the potential for advancement past green.
So I think that, even if you aren't thinking about it that way, you are supporting coherence. And coherence is the secret to being able to advance.
Honestly, the easiest way to make this fit our aesthetic is just to have all of these animals themed for a winter night in a dark foggy forest. I think they are part of the hostility of nature in winter for sure, so keyword swap at most and we are golden.
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- Location
- The Space Between
ahh. Good. "What is LQ's build" talk c:
We're built around Isolation, the deep wounds and scarring it can cause and the desire to make sure nobody we like (including ourselves) has to feel that pain via Connections.
So the first part of our build is our personal Isolation. We're Stealthy and Speedy and near impossible to pin. We are slightly removed from any given situation until we decide to engage with it, or the situation attempts to engage with us. We've the tools to keep opponents at arm's length, and even if they can land/connect a hit on us we've made sure we're built sturdy enough to push past it. We didn't go for any healing, regeneration or dispel techniques defensively. We've focused on Speed, Stealth, Dodge and Armor. We like the ability to pick our engagements, and like to have control over the engagement range. This lent itself for a Spacing/Zoner build, which we started off using Thrown Knives for.
The next part of our build is our Connections/Constructs. We make music that resonates in the Soul, and affects our opponents on that level. This part of our build is the FVM, BKSD, PLR consistent area of our own creation that feels so real that it can reach out and touch you. It also includes our ally-buff techniques which weave themselves about those we care for. Any opponent that wants to engage with us, connect with us, must contend with the creative cacophony we build around ourselves and those we care about. This is the part of our build that absolutely ravages low level cultivators, and can really save allies in a pinch. Our major projection-of-self in the local theater. FVM was a crazy tool for a Spacing/Zoner build, and broadened our utility by being more devastating than the physical knives we were throwing prior to that point. We have since dropped the knives entirely, in favor of a full-on Spiritualist approach. This is limiting in some ways (we lack a strong PHYS option), but more focused.
The third part of our build is the infliction of Isolation. These are the techniques that control single targets, such as the FVM banish tech the PLR draining dance and of course FSS's DoT and Finisher. We exert a world we prefer in areas around ourselves, but we remember the terrible pain of Isolation and wield that world against our enemies through both single target control abilities and a persistent DoT that leads into a finisher. Our ability to single-target debuff has been present since our thrown-dagger days, but the damage portion came about in a similar way to our construct-build. We had excellent fortune that allowed us to get the extremely strong art Frozen Soul Serenade, which has stuck with us into this mid-green we're in now. FSS has been difficult to engage with because Zeqing specifically warned us off of looking to incorporate ENDING too early in our cultivation. Thus, we're not really able to engage with FSS's core identity without treading dangerous waters. Now that we're in mid-green, perhaps that's no longer the case.
~~~
Anyway, one of the sources which helped inspire parts of how YRS-verse functions is the Dominions series of videogames. In Dominions, you're able to have a well rounded spell-kit with high investment in a small amount of magical paths, or you can be a rainbow and lack some of the raw power of higher path access, for a more full suite of spell-kit.
While it's true that there's a risk of being too broad, I don't believe that's as sharp a risk as some seem to think. Our capabilities can be quite broad even with a focused set of Concepts, so this arguing about having a finisher or more control is sort of strange to me. If our Concepts lend to good single target CC and strong Finishers, it seems to me the tradeoffs have been:
1- Range. We require closing in on targets for the finisher, and we're just on the far side of "Melee" range for most of our abilities
2- No dedicated PHYS option. Although we exhausted Ji Rong's Qi his body would've kept going for much longer after the spar was called.
3- Consistent Peer DPS. Our DPS is insane against targets of lower cultivation, and has Finisher Spikes, but we're definitely not a "damage build".
to extend the Dominions analogy, even if our three "paths" are ISOLATION, CONNECTIONS, BOUNDARIES that should still give us plenty of conceptual wiggle room to have a rounded kit of Finishers, Control, Field-Effects, and so-on. I think it'd probably always struggle at consistent peer DPS, we'd always struggle to actualize Physical Options, and the personal nature of the words will probably always constrain our range somewhat. Still, I think we don't particularly need to consider axing parts of our capabilities. It's more a question of which concepts to emphasize or prune.
and my three to emphasize would be ISOLATION, CONNECTIONS, BOUNDARIES
c:
We're built around Isolation, the deep wounds and scarring it can cause and the desire to make sure nobody we like (including ourselves) has to feel that pain via Connections.
So the first part of our build is our personal Isolation. We're Stealthy and Speedy and near impossible to pin. We are slightly removed from any given situation until we decide to engage with it, or the situation attempts to engage with us. We've the tools to keep opponents at arm's length, and even if they can land/connect a hit on us we've made sure we're built sturdy enough to push past it. We didn't go for any healing, regeneration or dispel techniques defensively. We've focused on Speed, Stealth, Dodge and Armor. We like the ability to pick our engagements, and like to have control over the engagement range. This lent itself for a Spacing/Zoner build, which we started off using Thrown Knives for.
The next part of our build is our Connections/Constructs. We make music that resonates in the Soul, and affects our opponents on that level. This part of our build is the FVM, BKSD, PLR consistent area of our own creation that feels so real that it can reach out and touch you. It also includes our ally-buff techniques which weave themselves about those we care for. Any opponent that wants to engage with us, connect with us, must contend with the creative cacophony we build around ourselves and those we care about. This is the part of our build that absolutely ravages low level cultivators, and can really save allies in a pinch. Our major projection-of-self in the local theater. FVM was a crazy tool for a Spacing/Zoner build, and broadened our utility by being more devastating than the physical knives we were throwing prior to that point. We have since dropped the knives entirely, in favor of a full-on Spiritualist approach. This is limiting in some ways (we lack a strong PHYS option), but more focused.
The third part of our build is the infliction of Isolation. These are the techniques that control single targets, such as the FVM banish tech the PLR draining dance and of course FSS's DoT and Finisher. We exert a world we prefer in areas around ourselves, but we remember the terrible pain of Isolation and wield that world against our enemies through both single target control abilities and a persistent DoT that leads into a finisher. Our ability to single-target debuff has been present since our thrown-dagger days, but the damage portion came about in a similar way to our construct-build. We had excellent fortune that allowed us to get the extremely strong art Frozen Soul Serenade, which has stuck with us into this mid-green we're in now. FSS has been difficult to engage with because Zeqing specifically warned us off of looking to incorporate ENDING too early in our cultivation. Thus, we're not really able to engage with FSS's core identity without treading dangerous waters. Now that we're in mid-green, perhaps that's no longer the case.
~~~
Anyway, one of the sources which helped inspire parts of how YRS-verse functions is the Dominions series of videogames. In Dominions, you're able to have a well rounded spell-kit with high investment in a small amount of magical paths, or you can be a rainbow and lack some of the raw power of higher path access, for a more full suite of spell-kit.
While it's true that there's a risk of being too broad, I don't believe that's as sharp a risk as some seem to think. Our capabilities can be quite broad even with a focused set of Concepts, so this arguing about having a finisher or more control is sort of strange to me. If our Concepts lend to good single target CC and strong Finishers, it seems to me the tradeoffs have been:
1- Range. We require closing in on targets for the finisher, and we're just on the far side of "Melee" range for most of our abilities
2- No dedicated PHYS option. Although we exhausted Ji Rong's Qi his body would've kept going for much longer after the spar was called.
3- Consistent Peer DPS. Our DPS is insane against targets of lower cultivation, and has Finisher Spikes, but we're definitely not a "damage build".
to extend the Dominions analogy, even if our three "paths" are ISOLATION, CONNECTIONS, BOUNDARIES that should still give us plenty of conceptual wiggle room to have a rounded kit of Finishers, Control, Field-Effects, and so-on. I think it'd probably always struggle at consistent peer DPS, we'd always struggle to actualize Physical Options, and the personal nature of the words will probably always constrain our range somewhat. Still, I think we don't particularly need to consider axing parts of our capabilities. It's more a question of which concepts to emphasize or prune.
and my three to emphasize would be ISOLATION, CONNECTIONS, BOUNDARIES
c:
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I'll just quote myself quickly: "To me, that means controlling the flow of battle through debuffs and obstacles, and having an ace to quickly end opponents that don't succumb to those fast enough."
This is the statement you're replying to (roughly). Note that I said nothing about the setup for the move being quick; in fact, the (I think, clear) implication is that the finisher is for those opponents who don't just drop under the weight of our control techs. Opponents like Ji Rong. It's a finisher; it comes at the end of things. Not having anything capable of finishing fights when we need to is just a terrible idea.
There are so many scenarios in which we won't be able to just sit back and wait for our opponents to finally succumb to our control techs.
"fast enough."
But fair; if we're both agreed that against a peer opponent any fight that ends with Call to Ending didn't end quickly by definition, I've nothing else to say.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
Moving this to it's own post since I wrote it all in edit mode...
[] Dreaming of Family (AKA Plan dump everything into Community Conceptual Project)
Yes voting for this please and thank you. We need to be able to talk about community and family and why they are important to being happy as a person next time we really talk to Rexiang. This functioning as therapist and confident and friend to our leige lady is more important than combat power or theft arts.
To put it another way, I don't think we can develop enough damage/debuff techniques to make up for the loss of our Cai in a fight to a social-fu build who breaks her mind at the fracture points. Avoiding that, glueing our girl back together from what clumsy oppression mom and jealous rose mom did to her, that is what we need to be able to do. And that means Ling Qi needs to understand community and friends in a way she doesn't now. We spent a lot of time learning to family, but I think that is a dead end for Rei. We spent a lot of time learning that we can be selfish and good at the same time and it's ok, but I don't think Rei is ready for that yet. We've avoided so far all physical love, but while that might work for Rei I really don't think it is a good long term move to have it happen before she is happy on her own. So with self, family, and lovers excluded for teaching Rei what it is to be happy with people, community and friends become the real important things for Ling Qi to know in a way she can articulate.
[] Dreaming of Family (AKA Plan dump everything into Community Conceptual Project)
Yes voting for this please and thank you. We need to be able to talk about community and family and why they are important to being happy as a person next time we really talk to Rexiang. This functioning as therapist and confident and friend to our leige lady is more important than combat power or theft arts.
To put it another way, I don't think we can develop enough damage/debuff techniques to make up for the loss of our Cai in a fight to a social-fu build who breaks her mind at the fracture points. Avoiding that, glueing our girl back together from what clumsy oppression mom and jealous rose mom did to her, that is what we need to be able to do. And that means Ling Qi needs to understand community and friends in a way she doesn't now. We spent a lot of time learning to family, but I think that is a dead end for Rei. We spent a lot of time learning that we can be selfish and good at the same time and it's ok, but I don't think Rei is ready for that yet. We've avoided so far all physical love, but while that might work for Rei I really don't think it is a good long term move to have it happen before she is happy on her own. So with self, family, and lovers excluded for teaching Rei what it is to be happy with people, community and friends become the real important things for Ling Qi to know in a way she can articulate.
CedeTheBees
Probably high right now
- Location
- Somewhere
- Pronouns
- They/Them
We're actually at Freedom I (1/2). There was a point we got from a Sixiang vote a while back that hasn't been added in.
EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
- Location
- The Void
If we're continuing on corrections @yrsillar aside from the post above
This one is supposed have have 1 XP from the conversation with Lao Keung pertaining to forgiveness
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CedeTheBees
Probably high right now
- Location
- Somewhere
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Don't forget this.
Resource regen is a defensive strategy and direct damage is an offensive one. Of course Liling has both defense and offense.
Edit: In the vast majority of cases a finisher has really just been a Mortal Kombat Fatality for us. Its used at the end of a fight to signify our power over our opponent. We had a tactically relevant finisher in Traveler's End but that was too disruptive and was removed, while CtE has only really been tactically relevant against Hui Peng, where it was actually used as an opener. There's also Lunatic Whirl, I guess, but that's not classed as a "finisher" but rather a symptom of how the old system in Forge got wonky.
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