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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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So setting aside the wider societal implications of things, what are the odds Linqin is going to manage to reach White? Before this I didn't think it was particularly likely, but now...

I mean Jiao failed to reach White because An left him behind, but this is the opposite. Shenhua just obliterated every obstacle preventing Linqin from fully standing beside her and achieving her dreams.
 
Well, considering that the plan is for Renxiang to depose her, it's a good thing Shenhua got this underway early, huh? Hopefully it'll be accepted and established within even a political niche before it's time for the showdown, because depending on how far The Tyrant Progress goes off the rails, it's inevitably going to be colored by that association.

It is funny to see Renxiang ask, "Why spend so much goodwill for this?" Because in light of Shenhua expecting to be deposed and replaced by a better ruler, the fact it burns political capitol is part of the point: because it keeps her from getting too entrenched (which would increase the collateral damage inevitably caused by her removal) and because it means that her replacement won't have to take the damage associated with doing The Right Thing here.

I expect that by the time all this is said and done, Renxiang will pocket kudos as a relative conservative while discreetly never reverting helpful Emerald Seas revolutions. Apparently Shenhua's heard of the Overton Window!
 
memoryofglory said:
So setting aside the wider societal implications of things, what are the odds Linqin is going to manage to reach White? Before this I didn't think it was particularly likely, but now...

I mean Jiao failed to reach White because An left him behind, but this is the opposite. Shenhua just obliterated every obstacle preventing Linqin from fully standing beside her and achieving her dreams.
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Low going by the previous update. People not Shenhua does not get to keep everything and suprem empathy path seems to be something that Linqin does not want.
 
Enthusiast#117 said:
So if I've got this right, she invented a method that allows Fourth Realm and up cultivators to reproduce either with any partner or even completely independently?

And now she's distributing it?

I mean, that's a bit of an odd choice on her part, but I don't really see any problem with it since if it was possible at all, that means the discovery was inevitable in the fullness of time anyway.
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The bigger issue is a whole lot of people who aren't even conservative are going to be very nervous about a White considering the laws* set down by the Nameless as within the scope of her Revolution/Way as they can extrapolate to what a GS will push for upon a hypothetical ascension, and this is liable to lead to a lot of push-back as such things involve in setting equivalent of gravity.

So uh best hope they aren't strongly interdependent if Shenhua managed to ascend as she needs Linqin around as a White as a restraint.

*Presuming this in fact one of them.
 
I am... disquieted by this. I don't like this at all.

I feel that this will create substantially more problems than any issues it would resolve. By a fairly significant margin.

At the first layer, we have the immediate ramifications of the announcement, which creates an untenable position for the men of religion and faith in the Emerald Seas. This method seems to directly cut against the narrative of the Mother and Father creating the Human race in a unique process that has not been seen in the realms of the material or spiritual. Religious organizations will not approve. Either due to dogma or the practicality of their position. More rifts in the Emerald Sea is hardly a thing that it needs more of, and this announcement seems to create whole new rifts.

At the second layer, I can't imagine that this process is completely and honestly in line with the dictates of the Imperial Law against the manipulation of the soul. Laws that were set in place for good reasons. This is the creation of a mortal human soul outside of the standard understanding of procreation. Through artifice and will a, presumably, independent and unique mortal soul is created. While there are likely loopholes that this method uses to bypass Imperial Law (I'm not manipulating the soul goo, it is the rubber gloves around my hands), I still feel this spits in the face of that particular human law. And if I feel that way, I find it more than likely that others will as well.

At the third layer, there is the matter of refinement of this method. Shenhua clearly has distilled this method to clean it of her Way's influence, otherwise random 4th realms wouldn't be able to do it (similar to formations derived from a Grandmaster of formation work can be used by anyone regardless of path), but that also means pretty much anyone with sufficient training can have the opportunity to refine the process. This technique will not stay static, and it will be improved or degraded as needed to suit needs. Can traits and abilities be manipulated into the mortal soul as it is being created? Could the deranged pull together strands of Weliu blood again? And how many husks of mortal souls will be left to wither in the efforts to refine this technique?

At the fourth layer, how does Shenhua know it is readily replicable? Was testing done before she used it to create Cai Tienli? If so, how many souls lay shredded at her feet in her pursuit of this goal? If not, then what did Shenhua do to ensure it would work when Cai Tienli was born? I fear that no matter which answer, horrors were conducted to reach this result.

At the fifth layer, is a human even relevant to the question of whether two beings can create a mortal human soul? We have a mountain load of circumstantial evidence that the higher the realm, the less human one becomes. And this process requires that of the 4th realm at least. But does it require a human? And will people try anyway?

I have other concerns, primarily regarding the ethics regarding the manipulation of that which compromises the mortal human soul to achieve specific traits in one's children, but that is mostly covered by the second and third layers. I fear that Cai Shenhua has opened up a twisted reflection of Pandora's Box, one which the first to escape its confines are freedom, happiness, and joy, but that which squirms at the bottom of the box is horror and heartache.
 
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Vanguard_D said:
You are being a bit weird now tbh. You asked: Would Linqin get to White now. I answered: No and added what part of her Way was probably stopping her.

... Then you got weirdly aggro over it for some reason?
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I'm not being aggro, I'm just wondering why it's stopping her. And if it would stop her are you sure it's foundational enough to her Way that she wouldn't be willing to cast it aside to become closer to Shenhua?
 
yrsillar said:
"Different," said the Prime Minister. "The poison you drank deep from was isolation. You cannot give yourself to another, and so they cannot give themselves to you. Instead, 'Sister'. Can you even imagine something closer, I wonder? Even now, you hold tightly but always at a distance, a support, giving without asking. A painful sight. Think more of yourself. Empathy without limits can be a terrible thing."

"I do not see how this is so," Ling Qi said carefully. "I… want to be better. I understand that people are connected, even if you care for only a few like me, those fews connections branch out in turn. Empathy is how you understand this, isn't it?"

"That conclusion is not wrong," Diao Linqin replied, the roses swarmed close, curling around her, examining. "But it is incomplete, you risk giving too much of yourself as you are. Let me show you why you should control your empathy."

Ling Qi felt a prickling in her mind, then a rush of worry and calculation. Renxiang beside her, thoughts racing, an aching pain in her thoughts warring with relief and trepidation. For all her poise, Ling Qi's friend was a mess behind her mask of stoicism, Ling Qi almost reflexively reached for her.

She felt her other friends. Meizhen's calculation, her concern, her pride. Li Suyin's never ending anxiety, the feeling that she was an imposter, undeserving of everything, no matter her accomplishments. She felt Su Ling's dull anger at the world, and far hotter loathing of her own self. She felt Xuan Shi, surrounded by kin but no less lonely for it. Gan Guangli's exhaustion and exultation, his iron confidence and belief in Cai Renxiang. More and more, flashes of bitter resolve in Han Jian, desperate pride and yearning to impress in Xiao Fen. Further, more, flashes from their kinsfolk and friends, pride and concern and wonder and worry. The sorrow of the Sect Head, the empty hollow of an old man who had lost everything close to him, living only in their memory, the other Sect Elders defined forever by loss and vengeance.

More, more, more.It jumbled together, individuals blurring into a maddening cacophony of feeling. It bore down on her, a weight and pressure even greater than the gaze of the Duchess. It was suffocating, anxiety filled Ling Qi, the helpless knowledge that nothing she could do would ever ever reduce this weight, even if she ascended in this very instant nothing could change this awful, dragging weight. It was made even worse, knowing that even this was only the people present at the Argent Peak Sect.

It disappeared, Ling Qi heard her own ragged breathing and the prickling of tears in the corners of her eyes.

"That is the conclusion of the insight you have without temperance," Diao Linqin said, her voice even. Despite that Ling Qi felt she saw the briefest glimpse of a single tear rolling down a dark cheek. "Be more selfish, child, take as much as you give. Choose what lines of connection you trace, or be crushed by the weight of the world."

+1 Want XP

Ling Qi got her breathing under control, and as she did she had a flash of thought. "Was this why the Prime Minister had never stepped in the Eighth realm? What would an existence which could never be separated from that feeling be like? A second thought, as she wiped her eyes, looking up at the radiance burning above, grasped so tightly. "What will happen when you are gone?"

The Prime Minister, she knew was much older than the Duchess, by some two centuries if she recalled right. Somehow the idea of that terrible colorless sun, unmoored from anything which grew from the earth, sent a chill down her spine.
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memoryofglory said:
And the reason that's stopping her from reaching White is....? I'm not sure why that particular thing is leading to such a strong opinion from you.
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She literally just went on a big spiel about how Empathy unrestricted is dangerous and implicitly about her Empathy is Foundational to her Way why Ling Qi realized why she doesn't go White.
 
memoryofglory said:
I'm not being aggro, I'm just wondering why it's stopping her. And if it would stop her are you sure it's foundational enough to her Way that she wouldn't be willing to cast it aside to become closer to Shenhua?
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She is Prism. Casting away parts of her Way at this point would be.... bad. If it is something she got back in Green or even Cyan as it seems to be, it would probably kill her to try. Or end up as Jiao where she cant cultivate at all.

Like iirc only example we have of removing an insight for example was a Green removing everything they got between the point they slotted in the insight and where they are. And I doubt it is that easy when Ways and extra spirital organs and dantians are around.
 
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With that out of the way:

I wonder if the Wang will be one of the clans hardest hit and with the most grumbling considering the standing army SHenhua is setting up. One of the points about them that has been hammered in over and over again is that they dont have enough manpower. And now they are going to have to give away a none small part of their own forces.
 
Vanguard_D said:
I wonder if the Wang will be one of the clans hardest hit and with the most grumbling considering the standing army SHenhua is setting up. One of the points about them that has been hammered in over and over again is that they dont have enough manpower. And now they are going to have to give away a none small part of their own forces.
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I certainly think they will be hard hit. Honestly, I feel that any of the border counts will be the hardest hit and the most to grumble about this. The Diao won't mind too much, I feel, because they are relatively safe, and the Bao probably will be fine as well. But the Wang, Jia, and Lou I think will not be pleased by this development.
 
Thor's Twin said:
I certainly think they will be hard hit. Honestly, I feel that any of the border counts will be the hardest hit and the most to grumble about this. The Diao won't mind too much, I feel, because they are relatively safe, and the Bao probably will be fine as well. But the Wang, Jia, and Lou I think will not be pleased by this development.
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On the other hand the Wang might be pleased that they are about to get a ton of support on the southern border. Shenhua is gonna make sure that the south is secure while the army is in training, and after that the Wang will have constant support from a large army.

Also I kinda wanna see the Nomad reaction when they see Shenhua for the first time. They already showed us their ace up their sleeves, now it's time for them to see ours.
 
Eastern Calculus said:
That's interesting - the part where only spiritually male and spiritually female couples can procreate. Do you know where I can find that in the lore? I just want to understand the context in which it was written. I find it kinda dubious, since we just saw two female souls create viable offspring, a procedure that can be repeated by anyone according to Shenhua. So I doubt Male-Female Procreation is some sort of actual Law superceded by high realm cultivators, rather than imperial doctrine.
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Well, it's not that only male and females can procreate, but you're supposed to have a male and female to get an offspring that's defined as a human instead of some sort of spirit. It's what draws the line between spirit spirits and spirit beasts, even.
it is kind of fuzzy because its a somewhat artificial distinction
but generally beasts are things that process food and reproduce in a humanish manner
and generally act like animals

Zhengui's birth counts as human-ish?

getting into high realms breaks it down yes
but generally its still male and female essence mingle, produce offspring
whereas Linhuo's type of spirit is literally born when a lighhtning bolt sparks a fire
*sufficiently large fire
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Not having a ying yang paring is what presumably causes reproduction issues in trans people.
Mortal Trans Issues

SparkleInTheNight
but as far as I can tel, for reproduction purposes, you have to be female to give the Yin essence, and male for Yang, even though everyone has bothIm curious how that operates for for instance Mortal trans people though
Yrs:
they often have fertility issues, though the source is generally not recognized
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But of course, as with all things cultivation, there's always an outlier and it's not that out there that the lady who jumped like five realms in ten years managed one of the edge cases.
yrsillar said:
Fertility manipulation in the form of medicines or techniques is pretty trivial for cultivators to acquire, yes, though it isn't entirely perfect, due to competing effects being a thing. (O Hai Zheng clan) Guys can't get pregnant unless they cease being guys through some method, though weird spirit reproduction things can happen ala Zeus sewing up baby Dionysus in his thigh. or Dresden and his fallen angel brain baby

To create human offspring, you do require a male and a female participant though, insofar as Imperial knowledge goes, things can get a little fuzzy at the edge cases though as with all things cultivate-y
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I feel like the Duchess' announcement actually allays some of the concerns that Renxiang had. She wondered why the Duchess had another child, why she called in a medical saint, why she brought her to the tournament― well, it seems like it had nothing to do with succession or caring more for her second child.
 
Diao Linqin mentioned a subsection of the Diao believing themselves the rightful inheritors of the Cai. Wonder how vindicated they'd feel if the next Cai duchess were literally the daughter of their matriarch.
 
Grigori said:
Diao Linqin mentioned a subsection of the Diao believing themselves the rightful inheritors of the Cai. Wonder how vindicated they'd feel if the next Cai duchess were literally the daughter of their matriarch.
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Hmm, idk. This kinda makes it clear that their matriarch doesn't support the Diao taking over post-shenhua since her newest daughter is a Cai. Plus it's not like Renxiang's father was also a Diao, so I don't think that faction is overly happy.
 
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