Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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You're chopping up my position into indistinct chunks and claiming theyre seperate arguments to knock them down in detail.

Strawmans are positions you yourself advance merely to argue against them.

You are inventing strawmans with your approach.
That's not what a strawman argument is. A strawman argument would be intentionally misrepresenting or exaggerating your argument in order to defeat it. I have not done that. I have not exaggerated your Xiulan + TRF argument or misrepresented it and I certainly have no intention of defeating it.

You're quite the joker there
So are you.
She wanted though, she wanted more, even if she did not know what. She wanted father to never again lament his lack of sons. She wanted Mother to approve of her. She wanted to stand above her sisters, one and all, to shine so brightly that even grandfather would rise from isolation to acknowledge her as heir and one day return the Gu to their rightful place at the top of Golden Fields.

She just wondered how much she would need to feed to the flames to achieve that.
Power is what she wants, to stand above everyone else and return the Gu to their rightful place. And she doesn't know how much she needs to feed the flames for that.
 
"I can't afford to fall behind," Xiulan replied in a small voice, drawing her knees up to her chest. Her elder sister's words broke what remained of her reserve. "I can't… I will not just be some irrelevant wife of a mediocre man."
Trailing behind again
Xiulan's elation cooled, thoughts of the battle coming back to the fore of her mind. Elder Zhou dead, unknown assassins creeping about the battlefields, whatever that awful thing that had emerged from the husk of the mountain had been, Ling Qi nearly dead because she had been too slow and weak, too unreliable…"
Unable to keep up with Ling Qi
Xiulan stared after her for a moment in silence, and then began to laugh. ...Getting what she wanted indeed.
Being taken home from the Sect makes the breaking of that engagement bitter, whereas if Xiulan only cared about herself why wouldnt she be celebrating?

She's finally free, after all
 
Yeah, I disagree. She compares herself to others, but she's not focused on keeping up with others. She wants power, and that is the core of her focus. It's not to keep up with Ling Qi or her sisters, it's about shining brighter than everyone around her.

Again, not fully involved in the argument between you two. But I want to say that I still think this is wrong. Xiulan in a vacuum wants power and is super ambitious. Xiulan in a vacuum doesn't decide to maim herself and go on a super fatalistic way to eke our the greatest potential. If she did, she would have been like this from the moment we knew her. Which just isn't true, it's because of her bonds and the way they are either superior, surpassing her, or distancing themselves from her that formed her way. It's not at all the true focus on power that you claim.
And thats fine. I think your ameliorating influence of wood elements is funny, but like you I'm also aware that my position is mostly speculation and wishful thinking

The difference here is that narrative evidence supports my position, rather than Thor's Twins claim that Xiulan defines herself as a lone wolf who dont need no friends.
I mean, you aren't wrong. It's a lot of wishful thinking haha. Just wanted to make clear that I believe TRF slotting is best result, but isn't the only successful result.

And the only reason I don't fully support your side is there was no description of Qi's domain actually feeling anything the way I expect something similar to drawing strength from us would feel. I mean we are talking about narrative, spiritual interactions with our music/cold/home aura. It's never going to be a fully defined thing. But it does seem more likely as I read it that our domains interacted and the result from our domain is the fire burning higher, and we didn't really get anything drawn from for that effect.
 
That's not what a strawman argument is. A strawman argument would be intentionally misrepresenting or exaggerating your argument in order to defeat it. I have not done that. I have not exaggerated your Xiulan + TRF argument or misrepresented it and I certainly have no intention of defeating it.
You blatantly did with that "So your argument is purely about saying Xiulans Domain *definitely* buffed itself in Ling Qis presence" argument several posts back.

You cant be serious.


Power is what she wants, to stand above everyone else and return the Gu to their rightful place. And she doesn't know how much she needs to feed the flames for that.
Oh wait you actually are.

The featherlight feeling of her spirit Linhuo offering comfort in her thoughts helped. Though she did not speak, the fairy had been her only companion when she had lain broken and sobbing on that mountaintop. That encouragement had been what stoked the flames of her will high enough to offer herself to the tribulation of lightning for the final time.

"You and Ling Qi," she murmured quietly, raising her hand to her chest. To have a close bond with one's spirit was nothing unusual, though she was only beginning to truly understand it for herself, but she still found it strange that she had become so close to another girl.
Instead she felt the urge to create new images instead of weaving patterns. Han Jian's face smiled down at her from the flames, warm and accepting the way he had been when they were younger. Red flames twisted into the shape of a girl with a flute, standing at her side as they faced a powerful foe, whose features shifted by the moment.

She was dimly aware that the grass was on fire, and Linhuo was fluttering in a circle, containing them from spreading. Gu Xiulan shut her eyes and breathed out harshly, snuffing the flames and all the images woven from them.

She didn't know what she wanted anymore, and that stung. She had sacrificed so much for power… but for what end? Han Jian did not want her. She should have known better than to put stock in childish promises. She had ruined herself for court, and even with all this, she knew that she would be chasing the shadow of her sister and Ling Qi
I mean...really?

Xiulans bonds have nothing to do with her Way?

...really?

Shes pretty obviously defining her ambitions by the people shes connected to.


like...you saying you are arguing in good faith, then cutting out all the context from the very interlude youre quoting from (which incidentally torpedoes your argument) isnt doing your protests many favors man. You clearly read the interlude enough to know what to prune out for your purposes.

You cant claim ignorance any more.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Zeful on Nov 21, 2019 at 1:21 PM, finished with 239 posts and 83 votes.
 
She would leave him behind soon enough, so it didn't matter
"You and Ling Qi," she murmured quietly, raising her hand to her chest. To have a close bond with one's spirit was nothing unusual, though she was only beginning to truly understand it for herself, but she still found it strange that she had become so close to another girl
That immense talent that had left her far behind should have been more than enough reason. Especially now that she had sacrificed her beauty, the one advantage she had retained over Ling Qi
Her sisters were rivals, obstacles on her way to ascendancy in the family, and to escaping Fan Yu, but Mother…
At least Father would be proud, she was strong now
She would not fall behind Yanmei.
Only Linhuo's encouragement had let her raise her destroyed limb again after that.
She didn't know what she wanted anymore, and that stung. She had sacrificed so much for power… but for what end? Han Jian did not want her. She should have known better than to put stock in childish promises. She had ruined herself for court, and even with all this, she knew that she would be chasing the shadow of her sister and Ling Qi.

She wanted though, she wanted more, even if she did not know what. She wanted father to never again lament his lack of sons. She wanted Mother to approve of her. She wanted to stand above her sisters, one and all, to shine so brightly that even grandfather would rise from isolation to acknowledge her as heir and one day return the Gu to their rightful place at the top of Golden Fields.

She just wondered how much she would need to feed to the flames to achieve that.
Ling Qi nearly dead because she had been too slow and weak, too unreliable…"

Ok so I'm just putting a lot of evidence up. The TRF argument is entirely wishful thinking/speculation. But just from xiulans interludes it is impossible to deny how much her bonds are a part of her way. Literally like every third thought is about someone she is connected too, how she compares to them, and keeping up with them. It's not power for the sake of power. Xiulan wouldn't care about power nearly so much if it didn't get her free of Fan Yu, get her fathers pride, surpass her sisters, keep up with Qi, get her grandfathers regard and so many other examples. Her most fatalistic moment, where she was facing the heavenly tribulation she literally says her bonds (with Qi and her spirit, though mostly her spirit in this one) got her through it and gave her the strength to support her arm. I took the same quote you did, and apparently red it entirely differently as literally everything there is about her bonds, whether it be family or friendly. It's not really pure power. You don't get that kind of angst from that.

Also on the domain argument, after reading all of this the likelihood of her domain gaining strength from our presence has risen for me. I can imagine their being some kind of "competition" insight for her. Where if someone she is close to and who surpasses her is nearby, she gains some strength or something. It would fit her thoughts.
 
Could we maybe just calm down a bit? We can argue over this if the QM actually makes it an option.

Lol I tried. The argument now though is about domains so it's now something actually arguable, and not just something that is a hope lol.

But let's try to change subject again. I'm actually still thinking about domains, because while mechanically not my fav, narratively and in fluff they are the absolute best. So let's just do some domain talks. What's our general plan? Like we have our home, surrounded by unfriendly things. Generally taken as a "warm center" and as the goal to work towards, avoiding the problem our elder warned us about making our job our life. Hopefully by keeping that illusory home the goal we can avoid that. But then we also have our motion stuff, that does seem to work in the process of getting to our end goal. And our ending and beginning thing, which while a really awesome insight alone needs to be tweaked or get other insights to strongly connect to our primary image. Also can't forget AMA, and the fact that when we cultivate more social arts they will proably have insights that slot into our world view and how we want to treat/think of our home. So that's all really complex. I think if we do start discussing this, I want to focus on tying our ending insight to our home insight. In this case, I think our home(goal) can be the Final End in the insight. Not sure how we would tie the minor ends in, but probably need another art connecting SCS insight to it, as the ability to keep moving would help getting through endings. It's a lot of really good insights, but they aren't fully connected.

Problems of being the first gen huh
 
I dont wanna help lanlan, she wont appreciate just like Su Ling

Thats all


Also, how are the outer and inner sect divided again? Cause two outers just paid a impromptu social call to an inner out of the blue
 
Also, how are the outer and inner sect divided again? Cause two outers just paid a impromptu social call to an inner out of the blue
Both are allowed to leave the mountain, and our mom lives in the town outside the mountain. Back in FoD thread for example we could have retreated to the town during Growing Pains to meet Yanmei.
 
Lol I tried. The argument now though is about domains so it's now something actually arguable, and not just something that is a hope lol.

But let's try to change subject again. I'm actually still thinking about domains, because while mechanically not my fav, narratively and in fluff they are the absolute best. So let's just do some domain talks. What's our general plan? Like we have our home, surrounded by unfriendly things. Generally taken as a "warm center" and as the goal to work towards, avoiding the problem our elder warned us about making our job our life. Hopefully by keeping that illusory home the goal we can avoid that. But then we also have our motion stuff, that does seem to work in the process of getting to our end goal. And our ending and beginning thing, which while a really awesome insight alone needs to be tweaked or get other insights to strongly connect to our primary image. Also can't forget AMA, and the fact that when we cultivate more social arts they will proably have insights that slot into our world view and how we want to treat/think of our home. So that's all really complex. I think if we do start discussing this, I want to focus on tying our ending insight to our home insight. In this case, I think our home(goal) can be the Final End in the insight. Not sure how we would tie the minor ends in, but probably need another art connecting SCS insight to it, as the ability to keep moving would help getting through endings. It's a lot of really good insights, but they aren't fully connected.

Problems of being the first gen huh
No final home, our home keeps growing as we meet new people. It has its endings and beginnigs and it sways in the wind, but it will always be constant. I would like an insight about always being a constant. Not like remaining the same, but always being there.
 
Both are allowed to leave the mountain, and our mom lives in the town outside the mountain. Back in FoD thread for example we could have retreated to the town during Growing Pains to meet Yanmei.
But like, what if our peers think we are offloading the highest quality shit to our homies right now? In this meeting?

Just kidding, everyone knows Ling Qi is a good girl
 
But like, what if our peers think we are offloading the highest quality shit to our homies right now? In this meeting?

Just kidding, everyone knows Ling Qi is a good girl

Well...it's not disallowed. We just can't directly interfere with the outer sect.

[/QUOTE]
No final home, our home keeps growing as we meet new people. It has its endings and beginnigs and it sways in the wind, but it will always be constant. I would like an insight about always being a constant. Not like remaining the same, but always being there[/QUOTE]

The only issue with that is we already have an insight pertaining to a Final End. I also don't really think a Constant is necessary, as a lot of our insights have to do with change and why it isn't something to be feared.
 
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I think the insights from the Beast Kings and MoSS arts would be good in our domain. Both probably revolve around understand and working with those that think differently. While that might not be a problem now it might be a problem in later realms
 
Reminder, at some point Ling Qi needs to unlock the Wave Force so we kinda really need LanLan for that.

...

Pretty sure suyin can eventually make prosthetic arms for senpai and lanlan with some encouragements, especially with many many limb loss over the course of extensive testing in creating the art
 
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wave force?
Lanlan will get her arm back if she advcances
Wave force is from:
forums.sufficientvelocity.com

Battle Action Harem Highschool Side Character Quest (No SV, you are the Waifu) Original

No SV, you are the WiFi. I'm pretty sure that this quest title started that rather awkward trend of No SV, you are x. Sorry. I'll fix this up later.

Pre game version of that main character turned out to be slightly alike to Ling Qi in the steal energy from all the enemies to power a finishing move (wave force) way.


Still, i do hope senpai also get his arm back somehow on tier up. Even though its unlikely given the finalness of the scene.
 
Gifting Xiulan TRF would be a pity present at this point, I think. It was an amazing art when we got it and it kept being amazing even in early Green, but it's reaching the end of its potency. If we want to give her a wood art, we'll have to actually spend some time to find a fitting successor or an alternative, not merely give her Ling Qi's leftovers. The girl has enought self-esteem issues already.

That said, I'm not against getting Xiulan to turn down the recklessness... but is it Ling Qi's place to do so? Won't it just reek of hypocrisy? Ling Qi, who challenged Sun Liling, who challenged Cyan Spirits, who visited a Moon Rave, who took a knife to the throat. She's in no position to criticise anyone about dangerous feets. No, I think it's the place of her immediate family to remind her that power doesn't matter to the dead.

Also, I doubt Xiulan won't be able to find compatible arts with similar insights if she wants to, maybe something about peat fires that can smolder for a very long time and then suddenly blaze? But she has to want it herself otherwise she'll never cultivate it, and for that she needs to be satisfied with her power. Hopefuly, going home and comparing to someone other than LQ will give her an opportunity, especially if her house is ready to praise her and spend resources on her.
 
Gifting Xiulan TRF would be a pity present at this point, I think. It was an amazing art when we got it and it kept being amazing even in early Green, but it's reaching the end of its potency. If we want to give her a wood art, we'll have to actually spend some time to find a fitting successor or an alternative, not merely give her Ling Qi's leftovers. The girl has enought self-esteem issues already.

That said, I'm not against getting Xiulan to turn down the recklessness... but is it Ling Qi's place to do so? Won't it just reek of hypocrisy? Ling Qi, who challenged Sun Liling, who challenged Cyan Spirits, who visited a Moon Rave, who took a knife to the throat. She's in no position to criticise anyone about dangerous feets. No, I think it's the place of her immediate family to remind her that power doesn't matter to the dead.

Also, I doubt Xiulan won't be able to find compatible arts with similar insights if she wants to, maybe something about peat fires that can smolder for a very long time and then suddenly blaze? But she has to want it herself otherwise she'll never cultivate it, and for that she needs to be satisfied with her power. Hopefuly, going home and comparing to someone other than LQ will give her an opportunity, especially if her house is ready to praise her and spend resources on her.

And we are back to this. With someone who either completely missed the last pages of arguments or is being willfully blind. To summarize. 1) no it's not a fucking pity present. 2) it's still a good art for us, and we don't have another option anyway. 3) our leftovers...really? If you look at it that negatively of course you can't agree. Since when is TRF a "leftover" we are g3 and we are still planning to use it.4) and no it's not hypocritical. For all that we are reckless that's not what we are trying to advise against. We are trying to lower her fatalism, which she completely has and admits to trying to burn herself out. That is something completely separate from all the examples you just brought up. 6) her immediate family has so far completely failed in that "role" and actually are the original causes. It was increased by us, but it was caused originally by her family. 7) it's not about finding a similar art, it's about us giving her one. Which is symbolic (we took a knife for her with it), one of our chief arts, a challenge of sorts, a very high quality art, and is wood element emphasizing our connection. 8) she won't want it by herself unless something pushes it towards her. Nothing we can do will force her, but giving it implies a bunch of shit that she might cultivate it out of stubbornness. It also will most likely fit in her way, and she has compromised to try and cultivate "calmer" arts for her family already. She is probably willing to try for her closest bond outside of family. 9) and xiulan as she currently is, she is too damn fatalistic to be ok with her power. This is a hope to lessen it. And if it works, if she cultivates it and likes wood then she will search or similar following arts.

Now, this has already been repeated so many times. I don't really want this argument to break out again, as it is pointless. It either will come as an option as Ling Qi thinks it's a good idea and I will vote for it. Or it won't come up as an option at all and these discussions were worthless. So no point in rehashing this again and again.
 
Now, this has already been repeated so many times. I don't really want this argument to break out again, as it is pointless. It either will come as an option as Ling Qi thinks it's a good idea and I will vote for it. Or it won't come up as an option at all and these discussions were worthless. So no point in rehashing this again and again.

Then stop arguing with everyone who dares post their opinion on the matter. And you are right - leftovers may be a too strong a word for it, but it nicely sums up what I feel about the art in the context (especially considering that Ling Qi plans to move away from it as soon as she has time to cultivate another, more potent defensive art). And you seem to be the only one to argue against Xiulan's fatalism, people seem to argue more agaisnt her dangerous exploits.
 
You blatantly did with that "So your argument is purely about saying Xiulans Domain *definitely* buffed itself in Ling Qis presence" argument several posts back.

You cant be serious.
Of course I'm serious. I'm refering to your argument about the interaction between Ling Qi and Xiulan's domain. That was what I was talking about regarding "the entirety of your argument." If you were confused about that, then you should have asked for clarification rather than assuming I was talking about something else.

Either way, the argument is moot because we have WoG on the matter now.

In regards to this post:
As Ling Qi ascended to the top of the wall, heat and cold clashed where their auras met, violent winds rustling the cloaks of the soldiers nearest by, yet beyond base physical interaction, she felt Xiulan's domain, it was a hungry ambitious thing, lightning stabbing down from the heavens, a wildfire raging through dry brush, but it did not reject hers. If anything the flames roared higher and the lightning flashed more brightly as Ling Qi's own melody washed over them.

I asked:
When Ling Qi's domain interacted with Xiulan's domain, Xiulan's domain roared higher and the lightning flashed brighter. The question, then, was whether this interaction was caused by Ling Qi's domain and the boosts that it gives rank 4 bond individuals, or something inherent in Xiulan's domain when it interacts with people she has a high bond with?

And Yrs responded with:
It was some of both. Xiulan has some bond based effects to her domain too

And so, @TehChron It would seem that you are correct and that I was wrong. Xiulan does have bond based effects in her domain which interacted with our domain when we approached her in that scene.
 
Last word on TRF for me though
...I'll just summarize this really quickly so we can move on ... So let's continue to another topic
No my point with the slotting thing is that's the best hope. But TRF also has symbolic importance. And if it leads to her cultivating more wood element, and she doesn't slot the insight she gains here but eventually slots another wood insight the goal would hopefully be achieved. TRF giving the insight is the best result, but to pretend it's the only result possible, that it's only a fail or success is wrong. There are degrees of success here, and if we don't give TRF we don't gain access to them.

Ok so I'm just putting a lot of evidence up. The TRF argument is entirely wishful thinking/speculation. But just from xiulans interludes
Lol I tried. The argument now though is about domains so it's now something actually arguable, and not just something that is a hope lol.

But let's try to change subject again
And we are back to this. With someone who either completely missed the last pages of arguments or is being willfully blind. To summarize.

Now, this has already been repeated so many times. I don't really want this argument to break out again

What's the over/under on the number of additional times this guy will say he's done talking about handing out TRF before he finally commits and stops returning to the subject like picking at a scab
 
Then stop arguing with everyone who dares post their opinion on the matter. And you are right - leftovers may be a too strong a word for it, but it nicely sums up what I feel about the art in the context (especially considering that Ling Qi plans to move away from it as soon as she has time to cultivate another, more potent defensive art). And you seem to be the only one to argue against Xiulan's fatalism, people seem to argue more agaisnt her dangerous exploits.

...it's not about daring. I'm just annoyed because the argument always comes back to it being "a pity present" or "arrogant", or "hypocritical". And yeah I should probably let it go and not be annoyed, but I kind of am so I will continue I guess. So let's start...one we are higher cultivation level then xiulan and we already have a good defense. Us moving on makes sense. She seems to have no true defensive art, and so isn't nearly the same context of ya giving her one. Then the whole reason I really support this is xiulan is leaving, and so I want to at least make an attempt to help her. And her fatalism has been discussed, and where people refer to her exploits they also refer to her mentality. Which if you read the interlude is really ducking unhealthy and I don't think anyone disagrees with that. If you have a constructive suggestion to try and help her, by all means give one. I will support it if I think it has a chance of working.

And so, @TehChron It would seem that you are correct and that I was wrong. Xiulan does have bond based effects in her domain which interacted with our domain when we approached her in that scene.

Hey, thanks for giving us that info. Also don't think you need to be hard on yourself for being wrong in this situation, it was kind of equalish odds just based on that scene.
But now that supports my idea of there being a competition insight for her. Which means bonds are highly important to her. It's especially interesting because both of our closest friends have bond effects built into their domain, and we have a bond based domain. It just says interesting stuff about us being in close proximity.

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When people stop bringing up the same arguments with no solution? When it stops triggering me? When it keeps coming back after it has ended being discussed? Cause from my view, I'm not picking at the scab. I'm just trying to seal it after it comes back again and again. And I'm passionate about this because mental health is something I care about, and sure after today I'm going to take a step back and stop bringing it up/arguing for it. But today I'm not able to do that. So...
 
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