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The Long Founding (Warhammer 40k)

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Dlan the Wizard said:
And Custodes wouldn't step in, for thi situation, because? The entire Chapter got commisioned by Emperor, the Custodes solving the issues is more likely than not.
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I have not claimed that they would not, but how long it would take for them to act? we can exactly trust that the big E will keep an eye to the chapter

Dlan the Wizard said:
"you protect something and can't tell what it is? Heresy!"
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Did not, in this quest even, someone acuse several chapters of heresy? was it not stopped because a chapter we made went to see him with the backing of the inquisition? I can go and look for that part if you want. But how harder it may be for someone to say that they are colluding with chaos? An egent of chaos may resort to such trick to mess with them and learn what they protect. and if he does a good job at covering his tracks politics is the tool to deal with such case

Dlan the Wizard said:
And again, you might as well argue we need to add anti-infilitration or politics to every Chapter, because Chaos is right outside the corner apparently! Plenty of Chapter do nothing but kill or do sketchy stuff and they do fine without training in politics.
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Red Bovine said:
First off the issue with the Keepers was because they specifically constantly involved themselves with politics and did so in a way that everyone in thread agreed would lead to issues. Even then once the Custodes got involved they knocked it off immediately. They also practiced an ideology that was completely counter to the Imperils Faith.
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Yes they were made to cause said problem, won't deny that.But here we are talking about other brand of problems i did not bring them up i merely answered

Red Bovine said:
Second yes it is absolutely fear mongering when the things you are saying will happen haven't actually happened even with our previous chapers minus the keepers.
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I'm not saying they will happen, i'm saying they may happen. this chapter is made to protect this thing whathever it is, Segmentum Solar is one of the safest segmentums (unless i'm wrong by a lot), so there is no need to make this chapter that powerfull.

I fear that this chapter may face more indirect threats, which are sabotage, infiltration and politics, i don't want them to become politicians, that is not what the training does, the training is for them to be able to navigate politics when needed.

In fact if we could make this chapter absolutely unremarkable for both ally and foe i would go for it.

Also there is a case of someone using politics to terminate chapters in this quest, said individual was later revealed to be a chaos agent
 
Yeah nobody from the Imperium is screwing with this golden boys, they were commissioned by the Emperor himself, made by THE BEST archmagos yhe mechanicus has to offer and one that already made several very important chapters with the direct blessing of the Imperial Regent and the Preator of Terra any dipshit that even tries to mess with them its getting removed before they can say Ordo Assassinorum. And thats if the Banana guards dont intervene first.
BTW i wonder if the chapter will possibly have a Custudes liason, whatever Big E wants this boys for seems.to be important enough to have them on speed dial.
Ps. The Emperor' Dragons would be a good enough name. It will also obfuscate the thousands sons gene seed more.
Edit: the onkynthing everyone seem to agree is that we need extra librarians and techmarines. Wich is fair, we dont realky KNOW what big e wants, only that is psyker and techy in nature. S
 
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So I think Librarians is almost required. Techmarines I see the Argument for because they're supposed to be protecting some sort of Archeotech.
 
Wardemer said:
I have not claimed that they would not, but how long it would take for them to act? we can exactly trust that the big E will keep an eye to the chapter
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This Chapter is right outside of Terra. The Custodes can step in, whenever they please.

Did not, in this quest even, someone acuse several chapters of heresy? was it not stopped because a chapter we made went to see him with the backing of the inquisition? I can go and look for that part if you want. But how harder it may be for someone to say that they are colluding with chaos? An egent of chaos may resort to such trick to mess with them and learn what they protect. and if he does a good job at covering his tracks politics is the tool to deal with such case
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Again, you can argue that for literally everyone in the Imperium, and the Chapter doesn't need to be good at politics to have politically savvy allies. Custodes will step in and protec the Chapter, and actually thinking that Chaos is everywhere and Chaos cultists can pull off the stuff you are talking about as if it was remotely common is plain Chaos wank.

Yes they were made to cause said problem, won't deny that.But here we are talking about other brand of problems i did not bring them up i merely answered
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Brand of problems that has no reason to happen.

I'm not saying they will happen, i'm saying they may happen. this chapter is made to protect this thing whathever it is, Segmentum Solar is one of the safest segmentums (unless i'm wrong by a lot), so there is no need to make this chapter that powerfull.

I fear that this chapter may face more indirect threats, which are sabotage, infiltration and politics, i don't want them to become politicians, that is not what the training does, the training is for them to be able to navigate politics when needed.

In fact if we could make this chapter absolutely unremarkable for both ally and foe i would go for it.
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You know that the Chapter are travelling across the Imperium to solve problems right? This Chapter even being within Solar, has every right to be powerful and we can use other training, to make them good at protecting themselves. No need to fear sabotage if sabotager can't even get into you're fortress.

And again, you can argue the same for every Chapter regardless.

Also there is a case of someone using politics to terminate chapters in this quest, said individual was later revealed to be a chaos agent
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Aren't you mixing up the Xenocide debacle? When it turned out Khorne worshippers wanted to kill peaceful Aliens? Geniuely can't remember for such situation to happen within the Chapter important events, let alone one influencing multiple Chapters, and then again, I I'm pretty confident the Chapter in question didn't need political training to solve the issue.
 
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Fireofargentis said:
eah nobody from the Imperium is screwing with this golden boys, they were commissioned by the Emperor himself, made by THE BEST archmagos yhe mechanicus has to offer and one that already made several very important chapters with the direct blessing of the Imperial Regent and the Preator of Terra any dipshit that even tries to mess with them its getting removed before they can say Ordo Assassinorum. And thats if the Banana guards dont intervene first.
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And that would deter chaos agents in high positions in the imperium because?
All i'm hearing is Big Dad E loves them do not touch! But you seem to ignore that not all chaos strategies revolve around shooting their way (maybe Khorne's do) but Tzeench has been known to work behind the stages, manipulating events, he did not cause Magnus fall in a grandiose way but by manipulation, and this thing that the emperor wants protected and in a world that daemons have problems stting foot on, seems like a prime candidate for him to use politics and backstabbing to get or break the thing.

Dlan the Wizard said:
And again, you can argue the same for every Chapter regardless.
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You use this a lot but we could use this argument for everything.

But can you tell me why should we not give them this training?
All i'm seeng is you don't want to, while i and others have given several reasons for the training, and please do not repeat that
 
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SO! i have been reading everything again, and i think these boys are meant to sit on mini Golden thrones, these Crucible Thrones.
Personally i think we should just say FUCK IT and give them extra everything
 
I am only pointing this out because Grimm would know but I will say the organizationally this guys would politically be considered under the Custodes and not semi-independent like most chapters.
 
Wardemer said:
You use this a lot but we could use this argument for everything.

But can you tell me why should we not give them this training?
All i'm seeng is you don't want to, while i and others have given several reasons for the training, and please do not repeat that
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I use it a lot, because this argument can be used for anything and everything. Chaos cultitsts might as well fuck over any other Chapter. And again, I really don't think that Chaos cultists that are so high ranking members of Imperium politics as to influence High Lords is something remotely common or expected.

About why not...Because it wastes the training, we could use for something more practical? I don't know, maybe you think that burning furniture because you can, is very useful, but I don't see it this way.
 
Somnia said:
Because it would help them make allies and keep the High Lords off their back. The High Lords can easily fuck with us if risk their power. With allies we could secure better support from the Administratum and Machanicus.
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What are you talking about? The High Lords are servants of the Emperor. This chapter was created on the orders of the Emperor and is most likely going to have close relationship to the Custodians. The High Lords can't do jack shit to them.

Wardemer said:
The keepers of truth remain alive because the church could not eliminate them, because they had allies (other chapters in the region) and because when the problem started to grow too much a freaking custodes went there and forced a ceasfire.
Said ceasfire is extremly fragile and at any point risk coming to life, if the church could keep an info blockade they would without a doubt strike again and try to eliminate them.

It is not fearmongering, given how slow and inefficient the administration is in WH 40k what are the odds that the high lords or some influencial upper nobility does not recieve the memo, or does not believe it until it is too late?

Or that someone decides to accuse this chapter of heresy to investigate what are they protecting? and here i will also add chaos agents hiden in the imperium, because there are hereteks, heretic/traitorous inquisitors and plenty of other things.

So rather than give them a training that specializes them in combat, i rather give them training to deal with "social" threats.
Not everything can be solved by a bolter and flammer (unfortunetly).
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You're being silly. The Custodes are already involved in this chapters development. If anyone is likely to get in the chapters way a Custodes is likely to appear and tell them to fuck off.

This chapter and literally ANY other chapter we have created or will create is different. This is a personal project of the Emperors. As long as the chapter stays loyal and serve the Emperors goal for them; they an unbreakable political shield.

Edit: And there we go the chapter answers to the Custodes.
 
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[X] Plan: The Golden Sons
[X] Plan: SWORD, STEEL, SORCERY! (Dreadnought Version)

This plan is pretty awesome.
 
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Dlan the Wizard said:
I use it a lot, because this argument can be used for anything and everything.
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Yes it can also be used against the things you want to give them. but seeing that you just repeat the same i will stop. you have your opinion i have mine

LysanderArgent said:
You're being silly. The Custodes are already involved in this chapters development. If anyone is likely to get in the chapters way a Custodes is likely to appear and tell them to fuck off.
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Yes, ok and? would that stop chaos from trying? but you and the other one have not given a singular argument to not give them politics beyond "we don't wnat to" but as i've said i will stop, you and him have your opinion I and others have ours. that and i'm going to sleep in a moment and by tomorrow morning this will be long closed discussion
 
Dlan the Wizard said:
Then why they didn't demand execution of Ultramarines who have a entire sub-realm of their own? Or in this quest, why they decided to go off the Keepers of Truth backs and allow continued existence of entire sub-realm which is against Ecclesiarchy?
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Red Bovine said:
Again, that makes no freaking sense since that would be insanely suicidal for the High Lords since that would be going against the Emperors will himself. Not only would that piss off the Custodes but every true loyalist faction like the Sisters and Black Templars.
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Theia said:
I would also like to add that messing with these guys is political suicide even without political training considering that their creation was mandated by the emperor who almost everyone worships as a god.
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Fireofargentis said:
Yeah nobody from the Imperium is screwing with this golden boys, they were commissioned by the Emperor himself, made by THE BEST archmagos yhe mechanicus has to offer and one that already made several very important chapters with the direct blessing of the Imperial Regent and the Preator of Terra any dipshit that even tries to mess with them its getting removed before they can say Ordo Assassinorum
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LysanderArgent said:
What are you talking about? The High Lords are servants of the Emperor. This chapter was created on the orders of the Emperor and is most likely going to have close relationship to the Custodians. The High Lords can't do jack shit to them.
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Because they did exactly that towards Guilliman in Canon? He was a damn Primarch and they fucked around, a single chapter no matter how influential it is will get fucked over even if not overtly just because they might endanger their authority. The High Lords are Fascists, fat and greedy. Being involved in politics and gathering allies is a way to curb such stupidity. I'd also Iike to point out the Inquisition also tried to bully themselves against the Space fucking Wolves before. The Imperium is Lawful Stupid.
 
Tehy did that because of Guillimans reforms and for taking power away from them.

This chapter are basically just Guards to high level archotect thats not worht the political and military needed to mess with them and the custodes.
 
Alright I feel like this is starting to get into derail territory. If someone doesn't stop no one will. I say let the votes decide.
 
Rhadamanthine said:
[] Plan: Empyreal Dragons
-[ ] Empyreal Dragons
-[ ] Golden Primarily, Black Secondary
-[ ] Golden Dragon head on Black background (This but reversed colors)
-[ ] "It is the light that brings hope, and connects us all together. We are a beacon that drives away that darkness of ignorance and chaos alike, and binds humanity together."
-[ ] Librarians: The Chapter's Librarians are particularly well trained, and have far greater resistance to the temptations of the warp. They are far less likely to fall to Perils of the Warp, and offer more potent psychic support.
-[ ] Librarians: The Chapter's Librarians are particularly well trained, and have far greater resistance to the temptations of the warp. They are far less likely to fall to Perils of the Warp, and offer more potent psychic support.
-[ ] Techmarines: This chapter has more Techmarines in its ranks than normal, improving the quality of their equipment and allowing them to create a greater quantity of advanced wargear.
-[ ] Extra Dreadnaughts: The Chapter has more Dreadnought hulls than normal, letting it field more of the venerable ancients… if it has enough wounded veterans to pilot them, of course.
-[] Terminators
use 2 charges of extra trainers, 1 charge of extra terminator armor.

As others have said, we should in theory have two extra trainers, and not at least doubling down on librarians is a crime here. I'd triple down, but techmarines are likely needed to speed up deployment of the webway or mini-astronomicons this chapter is likely intended to spread.

If we can have non-compliant chapter options, I think this one of all chapters should be allowed to have more forces than normal, given they're insanely hard to corrupt and pretty much channel the emperor directly, but that's probably not an option.
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IIRC we can't take two copies of the same training, so no double Librarians, unfortunatly

Somnia said:
[] Plan: Hic Sunt Dracones
-[ ] Write in Name: Emperor's Dragons
-[ ] Write in or post a picture of the chapter colors: Golden Scales withe Red Trim.
-[ ] Write in chapter symbol.This but made of Golden Flame
-[ ] Write in chapter creed. (Optional). "Come not between the dragon, and his wrath." "Hoard those closest too you, and burn all who endanger them!"
-[ ] Librarians: The Chapter's Librarians are particularly well trained, and have far greater resistance to the temptations of the warp. They are far less likely to fall to Perils of the Warp, and offer more potent psychic support.
-[ ] Counterintelligence Training: The Chapter is proficient in the art of detecting and thwarting enemy infiltration attempts.
-[ ] Politics: This Chapter has grown adept at manipulating the surrounding political landscape. A sad necessity, in the increasingly politically driven Imperium.
-[ ] Techmarines: This chapter has more Techmarines in its ranks than normal, improving the quality of their equipment and allowing them to create a greater quantity of advanced wargear.
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That's four trainings and no equipment. I don't know if equipment is mandatory but I think we only have three training slots and I don't think we can swap the equipment slot for another training
 
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