To be fair, we know that 1) the Westerlings are fairly well-regarded and well-connected in the Westerlands, and 2) Jason is a condescending dick with a rather poor opinion on us and the legitimacy of us being heir.

Would that change the equation? Something something better back the option that most of his vassals like and that he's sure would win in the end...
I've given my thoughts on this previously, but to reiterate, I think the tocsin for Lannister support for a Westerling bid for the crown will be sounded by a lion-scallop wedding, and should not be assumed before that.
 
I realise now I forgot to vote entirely and I know I missed it but I would have voted to accept so uh happy that what I wanted won.

Blame the Pro-Dornish lobby in this thread

Vis a vis there being some "Dornish lobby", sometimes you don't get your way in a Quest. It happens. I've been quite vocally pro a Velyaron match but that's always been for meta reasons and is clearly not who Rhaenyra is, and its clearly not where this thread is going (and that has been clear for literally weeks of updates if not months). Rhaenyra and the thread were wooed by Qoren's charms more so than any cold hard calculus of "dragons and merging claims". You win some votes you lose some votes - there have been other votes I've been annoyed to "lose" (I think for instance we have needlessly alienated the Velyarons although we've been patching that up with Rhaenys and Laena a tad). Complaining isn't going to get people to vote for you next time, its just going to annoy them.


Additionaly is at least 100,000 men (I am not even counting the Westerlanders yet) really, that managable.

Its also madness to pretend that we've alienated every single lord of the Reach and the Stormlands over this. We may lose some Marchers, we might also gain some Marchers if this peace actually holds, especially if we promise our heir to a Marcher. Westeros might have some insane warrior culture it teaches its nobles, but a lot of nobles actually like not dying in a pointless war.

And the Reach (and the Stormlands) are more than just the Marches. Why would House Rowan of Goldengrove in the northern reach, for instance, give one flying fuck about a Dornish Marriage. They canonically went Black for a much more... polarising... Rhaenyra and against a half Hightower Aegon.

And finally those numbers are based on the WoT5K set almost 200 years later and I know that GRRM is an idiot who pretends that medieval stasis is real and societies don't change but I personally headcanon that there has been slow but steady population growth under the Targs (at least in the long run) because the ream has been more peaceful. So assuming identical numbers to the WoT5K seems silly when you can estimate numbers from the canon Dance instead.

EDIT: I'll throw in this at the end - this has not (so far) been some super number crunchy CK style optimisation quest with a GM who hates us and we need to munchkin to win. Its been relatively narrative in how things have resolved. Maybe this is a wrong decision but sometimes wrong decisions can be fun. I enjoy the story and even if this would not be my first choice I want to see where our GM takes us because I trust them.
 
Last edited:
Its also madness to pretend that we've alienated every single lord of the Reach and the Stormlands over this. We may lose some Marchers, we might also gain some Marchers if this peace actually holds, especially if we promise our heir to a Marcher. Westeros might have some insane warrior culture it teaches its nobles, but a lot of nobles actually like not dying in a pointless war.

And the Reach (and the Stormlands) are more than just the Marches. Why would House Rowan of Goldengrove in the northern reach, for instance, give one flying fuck about a Dornish Marriage. They canonically went Black for a much more... polarising... Rhaenyra and against a half Hightower Aegon.

The Reach and Dorne are ancient rivals (like the Brackens and Blackwoods). If you want a canon example look no futher than Arys Oakheart's chapters in A Feast for Crows.

The Pro-Blacks in the Reach in Canon, where not Pro-Rhaenyra just Anti-Hightower.
 
The Reach and Dorne are ancient rivals (like the Brackens and Blackwoods). If you want a canon example look no futher than Arys Oakheart's chapters in A Feast for Crows.

The Pro-Blacks in the Reach in Canon, where not Pro-Rhaenyra just Anti-Hightower.
In canon Tyrell side with Daeron II, the Dornish side when they got no marriage or special relation with Daeron II or specific hatred with Blackfyre.
 
The Pro-Blacks in the Reach in Canon, where not Pro-Rhaenyra just Anti-Hightower.
Ok, and maybe in this timeline we'll get Black's in the Reach/Stormlands who aren't pro-Rhaenyra and are just anti-Daemon or anti-Westerling or whatever bizarre very *not canon* Dance we get. Maybe we get a 4 way split between Rhaenyra / Daemon / Velyaron / Westerling and that causes us somehow to gain the loyalty of the Marchers who end up hating Daemon (and the others) more than us.

Acting like we've already lost 100k men is silly, sorry.
 
Techinally true, but how many Reacher House sided with Daemon? Answer most of them.
That is not supported by available information. While indeed we know Daemon core supporter is in the Reach and Stormland there are only Four known of the big Reach Houses loyalty in Blackfyre Rebellion. Peake is the only one that is known to be firmly in Daemon camp and we all know character of Peake house. Of the other firmly known info Oakheart, your titular example of ancient Dornish hatred, hedge their bets in both camp the same with Hightower. And Tyrell we have discussed their loyalty.
 
Last edited:
And finally those numbers are based on the WoT5K set almost 200 years later and I know that GRRM is an idiot who pretends that medieval stasis is real and societies don't change but I personally headcanon that there has been slow but steady population growth under the Targs (at least in the long run) because the ream has been more peaceful. So assuming identical numbers to the WoT5K seems silly when you can estimate numbers from the canon Dance instead.
To add to this, you know that "enormous" Hightower army at Tumbleton? The one that Ormund Hightower and Daeron built using not only the Green's forces but also those of defeated Rhaenerya supporters? 20,000 at the high end, most sources say notably less (around 12,000 IIRC).

Edit: Other estimates go as low as eight or nine thousand IIRC.
 
Last edited:
The problem with Daemon is that he's actually pretty damn good at a bunch of things (including, oddly enough, intrigue). He's also impulsive, irrational, egotistic, and prone to alienating people, but that doesn't make him any less of a wildcard threat.

Yes, he is a wildcard, a dangerous one but i doubt he will ever be the one that would be able to unite lots of regions and lords against us. He is even more divisive. Sure, i expect him to find a way to field an army to confront us by the time Viserys dies but i have doubts that this army will even have that many Westerosi in them. Hell, he might ingratiate himself to someone that would be able to pay for an mercenary army. Maybe Corlys ?

The problem with Johanna is that she hates us. She doesn't know it yet. But we can't count on being able to keep our relationship with Alicent secret forever, and if/when Johanna finds out, she's gonna be lost to us as an ally, and her children might be too.

You what, i did not considered that. That is a very good point. We will need to find some allies in the Westerlands to counter them in time ?
I really lack a good plan to woo the Westerlands because both House Lannister and Westerlings don´t seem amenable to an alliance. Maybe the Reynes ?

This is a quibble, but I think Borros might have taken a mere loss in good humor. No one is invincible in a joust, and Stormlanders know from fighting Dornishwomen how high women's prowess can be. The problem is that we injured him quite severely and neither he nor his kin nor their vassals appreciate that at all.

We can all hope that perhaps he was just a sore loser and was frustrated at the moment/the gravity of his injury ?
I do wonder though how we will be able to woo the Stormlanders lords to our side ? Maybe showing our might ?

In effort to get the blessing of our Lady's Father on our marriage relationship we must impress Otto Hightower that we are indeed a proper suitor.
Maybe we can promise to keep him hand of the king ?
I have no clue on how to do this in a romantic setting or way but again we are the heir and Alicent clearly has our favor and ear. Alicent might be the best shot he has to keep himself relevant in a ever challenging court.
 
Maybe we can promise to keep him hand of the king ?
I have no clue on how to do this in a romantic setting or way but again we are the heir and Alicent clearly has our favor and ear. Alicent might be the best shot he has to keep himself relevant in a ever challenging court.
Indeed we don't really know what we can give or what Otto will demand. In that I proposed we prepare first by at least strategizing with Gwayne and Speaking with Ser Harrold who was said to be perceptive of court condition.
 
Tie-breaker.
[x] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
-[X] The timing of Dorne's swearing of fealty
--[X] An immediate oath of fealty upon marriage would offer Dorne more protection against Daemon's Bloodstone Kingdom than an alliance. In a fight between an allied Dorne and Bloodstone, the Iron Throne would be forced into an impossible choice between kin, to help one over the other, or to help neither. In a fight between a Dorne sworn to the Iron Throne, and a Bloodstone which is not, the Iron Throne's position would already be decided. Even should Bloodstone itself later swear fealty, the Iron Throne would be obliged to side against the aggressor in the name of the King's or Queen's Peace. Swearing fealty immediately might even deter such a war entirely.
 
What?

That's a draw? 30 votes each? Why are people saying accept won?
If you divide the votes by block, as would make sense for something that is basically a write in prompt accept comes in at 30 and the fealty topic comes at 17 with the rest voting for other topics. It probably wouldn't be right to have either all of them winning together or having that single direction win out when there were more people voting for accept.
 
Marriage Negotiations Part II New
Marriage Negotiations Part II


Your father was more than a bit shocked, though none the less pleased, to hear you accepted the terms as they stood. You weren't entirely happy with all of the conditions, particularly how soon the marriage would take place, but it was decent enough that you didn't want to risk a worse deal by trying to demand more. All your children save for one would carry the Targaryen name and your coronation would see a new kingdom join the realm for the first time since the Conquest. That was a good deal no matter how you looked at it.

The next few days were strange as you waited for the rest of the negotiations to finish. You found yourself trying to imagine what life would be like married to Qoren Martell. You didn't hate what you pictured, but it did seem hectic. The hatred of so many stupid lords, constantly having to balance his rule over Dorne with your status as heir and the needs of whatever family you made. It would certainly be a busy life, though that suited you fine.

Your father came back to you a few days later, looking very pleased with himself, as he had every right to be. With your approval, he would accomplish with a marriage what Aegon was unable to with entire armies and three dragons.

Apparently, the major hang up had been the Stepstones as your father explained it. The king had wanted to give the Stepstones to Daemon as his own kingdom as a reward for his service, with Daemon and Dorne splitting the fees from any tolls. This was soundly rejected by Qoren and Otto too for that matter. The Hand argued that such a kingdom would almost immediately collapse once Daemon inevitably grew bored of it, something Qoren strongly agreed with. Similar efforts to make Daemon Lord Paramount of the Stepstones were likewise rejected.

Eventually, Rhaenys was brought in to act as her husband's proxy on the matter and a deal was reached.

Your father eagerly handed you the finalized marriage agreement, the contract that would determine the rest of your life. All it was waiting for was your approval.

Your eyes moved quickly towards the newer terms of the agreement. Most of it was stuff outside of your marriage and more resolving matters of the realm. Mostly.

- Upon the wedding of Princess Rhaenyra and Prince Qoren, Rhaenyra will strive to visit Sunspear for a few months every year, health and weather permitting. Upon Rhaenyra's coronation as queen, this responsibility will end and Prince Qoren will do the same for her grace in King's Landing.

- In regards to the chain of islands known as the Stepstones, the majority of the islands belong to House Velayron by right of conquest, with administration of the islands is left up to Lord Corlys Velayron. House Velayron and House Martell of Dorne will share any tolls claimed on any ship lanes between the islands, with House Velayron taking six pieces of ten from the tolls.

- Daemon Targaryen, in light of his valiant efforts against the pirates, is to be given control of the island of Bloodstone if he sees fit to rule it, and the funds to build a castle on the island if he so chooses. He is also to be honored for his bravery and skill by being given a hero's welcome upon his return to Kings Landing. Furthermore, a feast will be held in his honor not long after this agreement is made.

- The Iron Throne will cede minor lands currently held by the Stormlander lords that rightfully belong to Dorne. In exchange, Dorne will do the same for those lands that belong to a number of Reacher houses.

- The Iron Throne will agree to provide funds to Dorne for efforts to revitalize the settlement of Planky Town, aiding efforts to improve the harbors and expand the floating town.

- Dorne will consent and provide labor for an expansion of the Kingsroad into Dorne, provided it's vassals are allowed to build defenses along it's route.

- Dorne will make all reasonable efforts it can to elimnate banditry along it's borders.

- There will be no formal apologies on either side for any past misdeeds or violence. Instead, both Prince Qoren and King Viserys will look forward to a peaceful, prosperous and unified future.

These were almost all matters that affected you far less than the first round. You knew the land trade aspect of the deal was going to enrage the Baratheons, but you cared little. Concerns over Daemon on the other had, coming home for a visit to be honored while he was also being humiliated by your efforts, were vastly more worrying.

The funding efforts confused you until your father explained that Prince Qoren had to make clear to his people that this marriage and unification was an improvement for them, that they got more out of the deal then what they would have gotten had they remained standing alone. While the lords of the realm would likely grumble anyway, they could not dictate what the king did with his treasury, so coin was an easy concession to make.

This was it. Once you gave your approval, the marriage was locked in place. Your father, Prince Qoren, Otto Hightower and Princess Rhaenys had all agreed to this deal. The only voice left that mattered was yours.

How Do You React To Final Terms?

[] Accept them as is (This Will Put Rhaenyra in a Binding Betrothal)


[] Reject Them (This Will Have Ramifications)

[] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
-[] Write-in Which Term(s) you wish to discuss
--[] (Optional) Write-in an Arguement (This will effect Dice Rolls)



QM's Note: So, to make clear, this is the last chance you guys have to back out of the marriage. If this goes through, Rhaenyra will now be betrothed to Prince Qoren, and that kind of thing is legally binding. Unless something drastic happens, the two of them have to get married at some point after this deal is made. So, if you have any last second misgivings, questions or concerns about this union, now is the time.
 
These ones are actually mostly fine, (even if i still disagree with marrying Qoren as a whole.) But that first one has to go. If this really goes through, which the dorne will lobbyist likely ensure, than we'll be busy enough as it is keeping the civil war from being a worst case scenario for us. Spending several months in dorne every year no matter what will hamper that quite a bit.

Edit: the land thing will also piss some people of, not just in the stormlands but dorne aswell.

Kind of sad that Rhaenyra is giving up the option of naming a daughter Visenya as she wanted to do that.
Hopefully teen spirit will give us the option to ignore that somehow cause fuck that, first daughter is visenya no matter what.
 
Last edited:
QM's Note: So, to make clear, this is the last chance you guys have to back out of the marriage. If this goes through, Rhaenyra will now be betrothed to Prince Qoren, and that kind of thing is legally binding. Unless something drastic happens, the two of them have to get married at some point after this deal is made. So, if you have any last second misgivings, questions or concerns about this union, now is the time.
Can we have longer Moratorium as this is an important vote that is both politically important and the last chance to decided to Marry Qoren or not? Thank you.


Edit* Still hope for moratorium. But If people wanted to vote please vote for this. As these clarify few important detail about the deal.
[] Plan A Few Details
-[] Ask for the visit requirement to be changed so that both you pledge to visit Dorne regularly and that Qoren will visit the other parts of the realm regularly with you.
--[] It makes sense to broaden the focus from Sunspear to all of Dorne, since visiting other Dornish lords would help your standing and the process of unification. Likewise, Qoren should ensure that he is a known figure in the rest of the Seven Kingsdoms before the wedding to ease their concerns and grumbling. He is good at wining people over and should leverage that for the benefit of our union.
-[] Ask for clarification of the status of Bloodstone.
--[] Since Daemon being sworn to Corlys Velaryon would be an awkward situation for all involved, you want it spelled out that Daemon swears fealty directly to the Iron Throne. Should he not wish to claim Bloodstone, the island will be held by the Iron Throne directly in case he changes his mind later.
-[] Ask to review the border adjustments. You want to make sure that no mistakes, like awarding land to House Peake, have snuck in.
 
Last edited:
Yeah if this stays as is unless Teen Spirit is giving Rhae plot armour there's no way it doesn't end in her being assassinated.

Especially with her own lack of guile/intrigue and Viserys lack of a (loyal) spymaster.

This makes TOO many people EVEN more set on killing her.

Not just everyone upset with Dorne joining the Kingdom diplomatically or with her personally, but also everyone in Dorne who wants Dorne to have a dragon-riding Prince/Princess with no draw backs.

Hopefully people are AWARE NOW of the issues with it as is, it's not a coincidence the majority of the "accept as is" votes came early.

[x] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
-[X] The timing of Dorne's swearing of fealty
--[X] An immediate oath of fealty upon marriage would offer Dorne more protection against Daemon's Bloodstone Kingdom than an alliance. In a fight between an allied Dorne and Bloodstone, the Iron Throne would be forced into an impossible choice between kin, to help one over the other, or to help neither. In a fight between a Dorne sworn to the Iron Throne, and a Bloodstone which is not, the Iron Throne's position would already be decided. Even should Bloodstone itself later swear fealty, the Iron Throne would be obliged to side against the aggressor in the name of the King's or Queen's Peace. Swearing fealty immediately might even deter such a war entirely.
-[X] Marriage Deadline
--[X] (Optional) Argument: 18 months places it at high risk of taking place during winter. This could block significant portions of the kingdoms from being able to visit. 24 months is likely more secure
 
These ones are actually mostly fine, (even if i still disagree with marrying Qoren as a whole.) But that first one has to go. If this really goes through, which the dorne will lobbyist likely ensure, than we'll be busy enough as it is keeping the civil war from being a worst case scenario for us. Spending several months in dorne every year no matter what will hamper that quite a bit.
i agree. spending several months away in Dorne every year cuts into the time we need for training, politicking, and preparing for both Rhaenyra's upcoming rule AND the inevitable civil war when it happens.

i would love for Rhaenyra to spend more time there, but she will be Westeros' First Queen. he has to understand what this means Rhaenyra is facing.
 
Back
Top