POV: You watch a country organize an alliance for third-world nations to help each other stand against the superpowers and industrialize without looking at Africa/South America as even a second choice.
Now, I am not going to point fingers at whose fault that may be...I am straight up saying that's the West's (Europe in particular with a hefty "Fuck YOU!" at Belgium) fault.
If we can just roll a list of countries we can argue over all that (inclusion, exclusion) ; terms and other stuff might be good to have at another time so we don't get people looking at the whole post and bluescreening because stack overflow on the brain matrix.
I didn't even think that there would be a "leading nation" of the pact since my initial reading was this was a research sharing program between countries. Am I just confused?
Well if Hero is correct then that won't be a problem much longer, and China will be in an even worse position after their civil war so who are they to argue for the assistance?
The wikipedia list i was using didn't list Laos as communist during this time smh. In regards to thailand though I wonder why you say so for them? Wikipedia says they're under a royalist military junta, would they be very receptive to communists?
If Cambodia hates us then they can say no and not show up.
Malaysia is run by a right wing coalition government it looks like? Would they be very receptive at this time?
In regards to Indonesia:
An attempted coup on 30 September and 1 October 1965 was countered by Suharto-led troops. According to the official history made by the army, this attempt was backed by the Communist Party of Indonesia (PKI).[7] The army subsequently led a nationwide violent anti-communist purge and Suharto wrested power from Indonesia's founding president, Sukarno.
I personally do not feel they would be very receptive but the english wikipedia article is a bit sparse on the time period and maybe you know more about them!
Let them come. I'm sure that a quick winnable war in south america that is just what they need to rally the nation behind the flag that is every so calmly flying in the breeze.
POV: You watch a country organize an alliance for third-world nations to help each other stand against the superpowers and industrialize without looking at Africa/South America as even a second choice.
I included the rest of them already, but Burkina Faso is not communist yet? That happens in 1983/4 depending on if you count it as when Sankara gains power or when changes the name of the country from Upper Volta to Burkina Faso. Unless you changed their fat already?
[] Invites for I swear cuba was in the first one
-[] Cuba
-[] Yugoslavia
-[] Albania
-[] North Korea
-[] Palestine
-[] Vietnam
-[] Yemen
-[] Sudan
-[] Somalia
-[] Congo
-[] Ethiopia
-[] Mozambique
-[] Angola
-[] Benin
-[] Cambodia
-[] Afghanistan
-[] India
-[] Seychelles
-[] Grenada
-[] Egypt
-[] Laos
Our focus should probably be the other nations which aren't already covered by USSR or China though both superpowers should be invited to the table. The former has been given charge of Eastern Europe so there's that.
What about India? They hold a position of neutrality in regards to Capitalist vs. Communist.
India should not be in CyPac - they're too fucking big and would end up dominating the alliance. CyPac is for smaller countries. Really, India should be part of ComDevA (USSR, China, India + Guangchou hanging out) because they're of a similar potential economic clout level.
Hell, having Iran in CyPac is a stretch. Mostly made ok by the fact that we can balance out their economic clout and that they're just coming off a revolution.
Map circa 1980:
[X] CyPac: The Consequences Of My Own Actions
-[X] Invites
--[X] Big Dogs: India, USSR
These are not being invited to CyPac, but we want them at the conference for the China negotiations.
--[X] East Europe: Yugoslavia, Albania
Both are part of the NAP, both are socialist, both fell out with the USSR.
It'll probably ruffle some Soviet feathers, but, ughhhhh, we're in the process of trying to build a power block to contest their geopolitical dominance. Feathers will be ruffled no matter what.
--[X] ASEAN: North Korea,Vietnam, Burma (Myanmar), Bangladesh, Kampuchea, Mongolia
CyPac-ASEAN is our backyard. It's not a great bunch, and we've got USA aligned nations all over, but in time we might be able to pry away Laos (which did not quite manage its communist revolution in this TL), Thailand, and the Philippines. Maybe. In the meantime it's really more an a very angry security blanket.
North Korea is a thing, they exist. Have some decent heavy industry.
Vietnam is problematic because their overriding concern rn is how to secure themselves vs China. They're probably not as fervent in this as they were OTL since we avoided the Sino-Vietnamese war, but they've been at war with china for millennia. The US is currently giving them the cold shoulder because of a combination of racism and ideological blinders, but that won't last. To get them aboard we need to get them a buffer state with China. Sorry Hua, Southern Yunnan and Guanxi are gonna have to go do their own thing.
I'd prefer to invite Kampuchea, but Pol Pot's still in charge so... no. He'll start shit. Actually, wait, it's been a few years at this point, is he still gonna be a dick when we dangle this much economic development in front of him? You know what, I changed my mind. We make sure we add some minders to his delegation to babysit them politely, but if we don't invite Kampuchea it'll just exacerbate the existing bad blood.
Yeah HC has confirmed that Pol Pot's antipathy for us is an interpersonal thing between him and Jungmin, so the diplomats being sent aren't gonna raise hell about it.
Burma is ostensibly socialist rn, in that authoritarian military state sort of way. But they're also sitting one a major smuggling route into China, and frankly we don't have a lot of stones to throw, seing as we're also an authoritarian communist dictatorship backed by military power (we haven't done any political or justice reform since we got in).
Bangladesh is in the middle of a bunch of assassinations and counter-assassination which... is not ideal, but once again, a potential way to smuggle weapons into China that needs to be sealed. I say invite them, and roll with the punches. Perhaps economic stimulus and outside mediation might settle things down a bit. If not, well, better aligned with us than the USA.
I thought Mongolia would be more inclined to stick with the USSR, but I was wrong! After doing some digging apprently Mongolia was dissatistfied with the economic role the USSR assigned it (agriculture and mineral extraction) and undertook industrialization programs on their own. They'd definitely want in!
Bhutan isn't getting included because their foreign relations are under India's control, and they're a very insular nation.
Nepal isn't getting invited because it's still an authoritarian monarchy.
No invitation for Mongolia because it's already a close ally of the USSR, and far from us.
--[X] West Asia: Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Syria
The Middle East and North Africa! Our first big cluster!
Cy-Pac MENA is by necessity going to do it's own thing compared to us - they're far away and we just don't have the capability to secure our trade routes to them. But giving industrial aid and IP transfers to them does establish a major allied node under Europe which helps keep European attention focused close to home, while also being good for our anti-imperialist street cred.
Also, it's worth noting that a lot of the time, these places had a rocky relationship with the USSR, because the communist parties were basically all under foreign leadership - this was the case for Nasserist Egypt and Libya under Gaddafi. So an alternative to Red Imperialism would be welcomed in a lot of places.
Afghanistan has had it's revolution, and we helped so the Soviets never had to invade. I don't know if they like us, but they'll be receptive to hearing what we have to say at least. The issue here will be their long term stability. Fingers crossed that the work we did on Islamic Socialism will be enough to stabilize things in concert with some industrial aid.
Iran has also had it's revolution, and we specifically send guns to the Kurds which will make it harder for the Khomeinists to purge them. On the other hand, it does mean the country is locked in a power struggle between the more secular communists and the more religious Khomeinists. A CyPac Aligned Afghanistan on their right flank, and armed Kurds on their left might be enough to force Khomeini to the negotiating table, but who knows.
In Iraq Saddam Hussein just got into power. He's a dictator but, like, this is geopolitics. He's just gotten in and probably looking to score some wins to legitimize his rule, so he might be amenable to playing nice in a wider CyPac in exchange for industrial aid and whatnot. We just have to follow the usual playbook for dealing with more corrupt nations (which at this point is most of our prospective allies and probably ourselves): in kind aid/payments.
Syria is... Syria. It's not on great terms with either Israel or Iraq. The Muslim Brotherhood has been doing an insurgency against the central government since the 70s. Economic growth coupled with spreading our particular brand of Islamic Socialism might help bleed support from the Brotherhood, and with more influence we can maybe pressure the government to be more precise in their campaign against the Brotherhood and reduce civilian casualties.
--[X] North Africa: Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Mauritania, Western Sahara, South Yemen, Sudan, Tunisia
Egypt! Yes daddy Nasser. Industrialize me harder.
Conditions in Egypt improved tremendously under Nasser, who did a sort of socialist thing and nationalized a bunch of stuff, improved education, invested in infrastructure. Then Nasser died and was replaced with Sadat who switched Egypt's affiliation from the USSR to the USA, and let the industrial sector languish. Mubarak just got in in 1981, and he's facing mass poverty and unemployment as the economy can't keep up with the booming population. He may well be reconsidering his predecessor's stance and be looking for a quick way to revitalize the economy... which is where CyPac comes in.
Libya. Honestly an absolutely solid pick. Gaddafi did a lot to improve conditions (including pushing progressive social reforms) and industrialize the nation, and their oil reserves meant he could pay for it all. Had some beef with Egypt, but honestly I think both of them are thirsting for native electronics production hard enough to put it aside.
Algeria. Things in Algeria are not great! The 1980s oil glut has triggered a recession. They're gonna be looking for a way out. The economic development CyPac is built around is bound to appeal. Their government is also socialist aligned.
Mauritania has just had a change in leadership, and Haidallah improved relations with Algeria as well as exiting the conflict with Western Sahara. IRL his reform floundered in the face of instability and intrigue within the military. Perhaps with trainers from Guang Counter_intelligence, and economic ties to CyPac something better might emerge...
Western Sahara secured its independence through the Action of the Polisario Front, which resisted both Moroccan and Mauritanian incursions into Western Sahara. The Mauritanians have withdrawn, but the Moroccans continue their march South. Getting Western Sahara into CyPac is dead simple: supply the Polisario Front with weapons.
South Yemen is a country in conflict, divided between a North supported by our enemies, and the South supported by the Eastern block. With CyPac and without the collapse of the USSR, perhaps we can avoid the 1986 Yemen Civil War. Who knows.
Sudan. The 1970s turn towards the west did not go well for the nation's agricultural sector which made up the bulk of its economy, and tho the civil war was put on pause, it also led to the US pulling out of funding the Jonglei Canal. This all escalated into a failed coup in 1976. By 1981 reconciliation is in progress, but things aren't great. Perhaps our diplomats can make the case that they should re-orient towards the East, especially if CyPac were willing to contest the IMF's reach and give them direct industrial aid.
Tunisia seems to be dealing with a aggregation of power into the hands of a political elite. Whether they get into CyPac really depends on what president for life Habbib Borguiba has to say, but a brief skim of his policies (education, economic development, gender equality) suggests he's probably be amenable? We just need to push him to do some proper succession planning at some point.
Ok, next up is Africa, which is huge, (it could fit the US, China, Europe, and India and have room left over), so we're going to talk about it in terms of how the African Union sections itself:
--[X] West Africa: Ghana, Togo, Benin, Guinea,Guinea-Bissau,Mali, Burkina Faso
Ghana has just had a coup based on perceived economic mismanagement. Pitching internationalist, anti-imperialist developmentalism to him should be a piece of cake.
Togo is a wee strip of land squished between Ghana and Benin. It's ruled by a president for life and doesn't have any particular socialist aspiration. Their induction into CyPac (should their neighbours even want it) would be on the implied grounds of 'if you don't do this, eventually Ghana or Benin are gonna depose you, get with the program and you get to retire to a lifetime of hookers and blow'.
Benin is curenly in it's Socialist phase, and they are officially Marxists. After a round of sweeping nationalization, western investment has dried up, and they were gonna be looking for economic opportunities.
Guinea-Bissau just had a coup over deteriorating economic conditions. Currently ruled by a revolutionary council. Honestly it's the same old story of democratic institutions not having been built up prior to independence. They'd probably be amenable to economic development?
Mali is in the midst of the Taeori regime trying to do economic reforms and failing (not helped by a big drought and famine). They would probably be interested CyPac.
Upper Volta is home of our boy Thomas Sankara. They're in the middle of a rotating series of coups, so inviting them now is... kind of pointless. Let's wait for them to settle down and for Sankara to come out on top (gimme me that much, HC). Of course this was OTL, and now that I think back I remember HC saying something about Sankara coming onto the scene earlier, so if he's there, definitely invite him.
GM has confirmed that Sankara got into power early, so we can definitely invite Burkina Faso.
Nigeria is not invited due to not having any particular socialist leanings.
Chad is... uhhhhhhh. Well a insurgency in 1979 caused the collapse of the central government. The country is split between the South with French funded troops, and the North supported directly by Libya. The key here is to make sure that Libya understand that they're not going to be allowed to annex Northern Chad and they should move to start nation building. America and France are gonna be sending the South equipment in a few years. How that goes it gonna depend on more factors than I can speculate on.
We are not inviting Chad. Who would we even invite???
--[X] Central Africa: None.
The Republic of the Congo is notionally communist, in that way that certain African military dictatorships are, and relies on Soviet aid to maintain the patronage networks that keeps the local president for life in power. CyPac might eventually take over those foreign aid provisions in order to expand its influence but I don't really see any need to deal with this right now. Not invited.
The Central African Republic is not invited because their hilariously corrupt president for life was just overthrown by a French backed coup which is on schedule to be overthrown by a military coup in like, a few months. Let's not.
Cameroon is not invited because it's not socialist at all and rife with cronyism and political mismanagement. OTL they were on track for a economic crisis in the mid 80s, so maybe then CyPac can step in as an alternative to the IMF.
Equatorial Guinea ostensibly has a special relationship with the USSR despite not being communist, but given the human rights abuses I don't see how we can get involved short of organizing a coup and we just do not have the resources for it right now. NOT INVITED.
Gabon is not invited because they don't really show any Socialist inclinations.
--[X] Southern Africa: Mozambique, Zambia
Mozambique is in the middle of a civil war between the Soviet backed communist central government and the South African backed rebels. OTL their efforts at reform and development were stymied by this civil war and ineffective central planning. I'm not sure what we can really do to help, except contibute our counter-inteligence expertise, and organizing material support. I say invite them in the hopes of doing some mutual aid with other African nations.
Zambia isn't exactly communist, but it does have lots of copper, whose price has just collapsed, and could be a worthwhile addition to the wider African CyPac. It's isolated through, with only Tanzania being possibly helpful since it borders Zambia and has ocean access that would allow the two to trade with the rest of CyPac.
Angola is communist but in the middle of a civil war between Soviet and US backed forces, and a third insurgency backed by Zaire (Democratic Republic of the Congo - not the same thing as the Republic of the Congo). I don't think there's much point to inviting it into CyPac in this state, the real way to help would be with military aid. Not invited.
Zimbabwe: Nope!
Malawi: President for life, totalitarian regime, no socialism. Nope.
--[X] East Africa: Tanzania,Madagascar, Somalia, Ethiopia
Tanzania has had a leftist turn in its politics, but it's recent invasion by Uganda and subsequent conflict have damaged the nation severely. It already had ties to China which helped build a railway in Tanzania in the early 70s. It would likely appreciate joining up with CyPac in the hopes of improving its economy.
Madagascar is literally bankrupt right now and seeking aid from the IMF. If we were to advocate for CyPac to pass a metaphorical hat around to get them enough funds to stave off said collapse, they'd likely prefer that over letting the IMF get their hooks into them. The nation is also aligned with the Eastern Block, so we're on the same side. Convincing Ratsiraka to blow off the IMF might require a leap of faith from him because I think it's been a year since he accepted IMF aid, but, well, he's got very little left to lose.
Somalia OTL aligned itself with the USA after the Ogaden War where Cuba and the USSR supported Ethiopia. This apprently did not happen in this timeline. They maintain cool relations with Ethiopia, but otherwise are a solidly socialist country.
Ethiopia, is currently ruled by the Derg, a sort of non-ideological military-police arm clasp meme committee and is receiving economic aid from the USSR. They're coming off a period of drought, coups, and refugee migrations, and OTL they would go on to face a famine in 1983. It's unlikely they would say not to more developmental aid. The major sticking point with the is Eritrea - Eritrea was federated into Ethiopia by the USA, and to nobody's surprise this Did Not Work Out. I have no real intention of propping up Eritrea's continued - and doomed - efforts to prevent Eritrean independence. I think a negotiated Eritrean independence is gonna be something we want to add as a condition for acceptance into CyPac.
Uganda is... not at all stable right now. I wouldn't even know who to invite, never mind that there doesn't seem to be any socialist side in their civil wars. Not invited.
Rwanda is a case study on Belgium being like... the worst. Literally the worst. CyPac might be able to apply economic pressure to encourage reforms, and greater economic development on the continent might relieve economic pressure, but I have a sinking feeling that it's going to be air dropped Iron Tigers reinforcing Romeo Dellaire in 1994. Not invited.
Burundi is... basically the same sort of deal as Rwanda. Not invited.
--[X] Mesoamerica: Cuba, Nicaragua
Look, you all know Cuba, I'm not going to bother talking about it. They'll definitely want in, and ol' Fidel's stance on homosexuality might be different in this TL on account of Guangchou's existence. IIRC he did end up changing his opinion about it after he became more familiar with the issue.
Nicaragua. Oh god. Nicaragua. And you thought Cuba was playing in Dark Souls difficulty.
Nicaragua just had a revolution in '79, and experienced major capital flight, the US then proceed to fuck them in every way they could think of. Right now US backed Contras are terrorizing the countryside, hopping across the border from US aligned Costa Rica and Honduras. Thanks Raegan.
Nicaragua would desperatly want to get into CyPac to escape having to deal with the US for developmental aid. And independent of what else we do, we should really send them military aid along with Commiewood documentary makers to record the human rights violation that the US is encouraging. Might help destabilize the US further, who knows. Incidentally, if we can snag Iran, we can prevent Iran-Contra, oar at least the specific implementation of it that happened OTL.
-[X] Core Principles:
--[X] Developmentalism: Members will aid one another in the sustainable development of their native forces of production. [1]
--[X] Anti-imperialism: Members will present a united block in the face of imperialist forces, internal and external. [2]
--[X] Mutual Aid: Members will provide humanitarian aid in case of natural or man made disasters in other member states. [3]
--[X] Conflict Resolution: Members will not coerce other members through military, economic, or covert means, but agree to resolve their conflicts via negotiation and consensus building. [4]
--[X] Nation Building: Members will work towards creating robust social and political institutions that encourage peace, stability, and good governance. [5]
--[X] Socioeconomic Justice: Members will work towards ensuring that their economic gains are shared equitable with their population, and that people are not put in danger due to things like their race, sex, orientation, etc. [6]
[1] For instance Guangchou would provide electronics and computation time for economic planning, Egypt might build a shit tonne of concentrated solar plants and export ammonium fertilizers, etc.
[2] Say for instance that West Sahara joins up, the others would be supposed to put diplomatic and economic pressure on Morocco to pull out. Or provide each other with aid in countering western covert operation against each other.
[3] Somebody his having a famine? Send them food? Disease outbreak? Send them meds. Etc.
[4] A bunch of our members have been at war with each other at various points, or exist in rather unstable locations. We would really like to not have them go at each other's throats.
[5] A bunch of nations we're inviting are very, very young and don't have a lot of social or political infrastructure in place, working on that and creating conditions where they can work on that is key.
[6] Basically, don't kill people for being gay (seriously, if you don't like them that much just send them to Guangchou), and don't let a small elite hoard wealth.
I am not writing up a full fucking charter for this shit. You get guiding principles. The exact details are for our diplomats to figure out. Maybe every five years everyone gets together and goes 'ok, I can contribute this, who needs that?' until a plan gets hammered out based on everyone's needs and capabilities.
For me, the navy is less about it being a military alliance, and more about guaranteeing trade routes and offering even a token defense against blockades and embargos.
This is straight up not happening. The USN is the biggest baddest mofo on the seven seas and it's gonna do it's damn best to stay that way. Not even the USSR can contest it.
The whole long term plan around CyPac is that eventually we might be able to contest their naval supremacy by Voltroning together enough countries to form the Big Boss of Communism:
Edit: @HeroCooky, is India going to be there in a non-CyPac capacity? Because we do want them there for China negotiations.
I didn't even think that there would be a "leading nation" of the pact since my initial reading was this was a research sharing program between countries. Am I just confused?
Even an alliance of equals has those who really want it to work and willing to put in the extra work required. That is what I mean with "Leading" as opposed to "In Charge" if you don't invite the USSR. 'Cause if you do, it'll be the latter.
yeastmobile said:
Consider it a hand to Hua Guofeng. Should I specify that or would that still not work for what you have planned?
I included the rest of them already, but Burkina Faso is not communist yet? That happens in 1983/4 depending on if you count it as when Sankara gains power or when changes the name of the country from Upper Volta to Burkina Faso. Unless you changed their fat already?
Yes. But only on an inter-personal level, he's going to send diplomats instead to handle the nation-nation communication with you specifically.
CyberEnby said:
Upper Volta is home of our boy Thomas Sankara. They're in the middle of a rotating series of coups, so inviting them now is... kind of pointless. Let's wait for them to settle down and for Sankara to come out on top (gimme me that much, HC). Of course this was OTL, and now that I think back I remember HC saying something about Sankara coming onto the scene earlier, so if he's there, definitely invite him.
You are missing Somalia, which went Social Democratic in the late 60s and recently discovered some "Fuckery" from US-Bri'ish dipshits. So they'd be amenable to join.
CyberEnby said:
I am not writing up a full fucking charter for this shit. You get guiding principles.
I think we should add the pacific islands to the list (minus Austtalia)
With focus on New Zealand.
In otl according to the official yearbook 1981
"... closely associated with ASEAN, which it sees as a force for stability and economic development..."
And 5% of 1980's exports was to the ussr proving that it can trade and have good relations with commies.
So i think with NZ's focus on south asia and the pacific NZ would join.
Also NZ exported aprox 400,000 tonnes of meat that year. More food is always good.
@HeroCooky based on the above any chance NZ would join?
No. Not unless you start pumping some serious material/propaganda/skill help to the Autonomous Australian Communist Communes (Working Title) for a potential coup/revolution.
Maybe as an associate? I'd need to have a think about that once the vote on whom to invite has passed to decide fully on that.
Still sick, so my brain isn't fully up to decide on if NZ would actually join.
No. Not unless you start pumping some serious material/propaganda/skill help to the Autonomous Australian Communist Communes (Working Title) for a potential coup/revolution.
Unless they somehow get alliances with all the dangerous animals Australia has don't think they will have the numbers to do a revolution, also a coup sounds like a sure way to have a never ending gorilla war in the outback because there would be a lot of angry people who have the knowledge to live in it.
Unless they somehow get alliances with all the dangerous animals Australia has don't think they will have the numbers to do a revolution, also a coup sounds like a sure way to have a never ending gorilla war in the outback because there would be a lot of angry people who have the knowledge to live in it.
It is 1985, and the AACCWTs have made a devils pact with the kangaroos, emus, and spiders. Capitalism has fallen, and only the Outback holds the last vestiges of those willing to fight back. The times are bleaks, and grow only bleaker as the last marmite has run dry. Canberra has fallen.
This is Wonderland. History bent itself to allow the things that are now happening.
In this specific case, it means that the US is undergoing a political meltdown of horrific proportions. Which includes the Republicans grabbing the presidency from the Democrats due to long-standing power plays and machinations.
If you want a spoiler for the future of the world? The EU will occupy the position the US has, but in reduced form. And the USSR won't fall in 1990. China is going to splinter. Africa rises. New Zealand will still be missing from half the world maps but vote for the Laser Kiwi Flag, and South America will have Communist Christians.
No. Not just a "I don't think so" no, but a "Hard No" no.
The only way that could happen is of the US continues to fuck up its rolls by rolling below 16 and manage to trigger a second civil war that leads to it splintering far beyond any timeframe that will have an impact on your decisions today.
No. Not just a "I don't think so" no, but a "Hard No" no.
The only way that could happen is of the US continues to fuck up its rolls by rolling below 16 and manage to trigger a second civil war that leads to it splintering far beyond any timeframe that will have an impact on your decisions today.
I guess the best we get as far as making them less of a potential problem in the ideology war is having them go back to their general relative isolation like in the time between the world wars. 🤔
I guess the best we get as far as making them less of a potential problem in the ideology war is having them go back to their general relative isolation like in the time between the world wars. 🤔
