Springtime of Nations II: A European Republic Quest
- Thread starter Etranger
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- Te Ika-a-Māui
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- She/Her
Yeah, I'm convinced.
[X] Refuse to negotiate.
[X] Refuse to negotiate.
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- Your pantry
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- He/Him
And they're bound to be unsuccessful at doing so. I think it's an a exaggeration to say that the Russians could sweep away the Polish partisans in 3 months. They still have to man the front during the ceasefire after all.It also doesn't take into account the possibility of us simply telling them to lay low until the war resumes. Us refusing to negotiate guarantees Entente intervention, and that is completely unacceptable. Plus, realistically, what the hell are we going to be able to do without suffering massive casualties? We're running low on supply, and people want us to attack during the winter with said low supply. That's just stupid, by every metric.
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Having given it a bit more thought... I think we might be fine just refusing to negotiate.
As I've said before, I fully believe that negotiations ultimately aren't really going to work out at all. But I've since come to believe that the operational pause it provides isn't really as necessary for us as it might seem. Sure, we're suffering from equipment shortages, but our enemy is suffering much worse, both in terms of equipment and manpower. Not only that, our own front line is now also being bolstered by the Spanish and Italian forces, neither of which are suffering from any particular shortages as far as I can tell. Essentially, what we have to gain from a pause isn't really worth it when our enemies are both so clearly vulnerable, and we still have plenty in the way of strengths.
On top of that, it seems like French/British intervention isn't exactly a guarantee, what with their last known stance on the issue being 'neutrality' of a sort. Even if/when they do, Austria is at the point where they will almost certainly collapse before either of them properly mobilize and declare war, and a separate peace with Russia might well be able to be concluded afterwards to eliminate the long-term disastrous prospect of a two-front war.
[X] Refuse to negotiate.
As I've said before, I fully believe that negotiations ultimately aren't really going to work out at all. But I've since come to believe that the operational pause it provides isn't really as necessary for us as it might seem. Sure, we're suffering from equipment shortages, but our enemy is suffering much worse, both in terms of equipment and manpower. Not only that, our own front line is now also being bolstered by the Spanish and Italian forces, neither of which are suffering from any particular shortages as far as I can tell. Essentially, what we have to gain from a pause isn't really worth it when our enemies are both so clearly vulnerable, and we still have plenty in the way of strengths.
On top of that, it seems like French/British intervention isn't exactly a guarantee, what with their last known stance on the issue being 'neutrality' of a sort. Even if/when they do, Austria is at the point where they will almost certainly collapse before either of them properly mobilize and declare war, and a separate peace with Russia might well be able to be concluded afterwards to eliminate the long-term disastrous prospect of a two-front war.
[X] Refuse to negotiate.
- Location
- the Republic
- Pronouns
- He/They
- Location
- Earth, Milky Way
[X] Enter into negotiations.
Even if the pause helps Russia more than us, we can't be blinded by the short term. We need to seem reasonable and as non-threatening as possible else it'll be us against the world.
We also don't want to look like we are intentionally torpedoing negotiations, but rather that we simply fail to reach an agreement despite an honest try and resume the war when we are ready.
Even if the pause helps Russia more than us, we can't be blinded by the short term. We need to seem reasonable and as non-threatening as possible else it'll be us against the world.
We also don't want to look like we are intentionally torpedoing negotiations, but rather that we simply fail to reach an agreement despite an honest try and resume the war when we are ready.
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- Your pantry
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- He/Him
You know what? I'll put this in a numbered format.
Refusing to the peace talks:
Disadvantages:
1. Shows us to be extremely bloodthirsty and warlike (this was all started over a river boat explosion that probably wasn't their fault after all).
2. Guarantees the Entente sending military equipment and credit to the Russians and Austrians.
3. Forces us to fight under low supply conditions in the winter, which will likely cause us suffer much higher casualties.
4. Lowers international opinion of us in general.
Advantages:
1. Continues the war while they're still bloodied from their last offensive.
while accepting the peace talks:
Disadvantages:
1. Lets them fortify somewhat and rest their troops.
Advantages:
1. Keeps the Entente out of the war (this is dependent on the thread not screwing up our terms).
2. Keeps international opinion where it's at.
3. Allows us to replenish our stocks of equipment and allows us rest our troops.
4. Allows us to fortify our hold on the Russian front.
It's clear to me that we'd benefit much more from the rest than the Russians and Austrians, so militarily, getting this ceasefire is more sensible than continuing the war, and diplomatically, it's also more advantageous because we'd likely be able to avoid Entente intervention and keep our International standing from going into the gutter. We really don't want to get compared to Napoleon the european bogeyman, after all. While the Italians would provide us some help, I'd like to ask, why now? When the German army needs the rest? We would be better off doing a combined offensive with them, rather than letting them eat lead by themselves.
Refusing to the peace talks:
Disadvantages:
1. Shows us to be extremely bloodthirsty and warlike (this was all started over a river boat explosion that probably wasn't their fault after all).
2. Guarantees the Entente sending military equipment and credit to the Russians and Austrians.
3. Forces us to fight under low supply conditions in the winter, which will likely cause us suffer much higher casualties.
4. Lowers international opinion of us in general.
Advantages:
1. Continues the war while they're still bloodied from their last offensive.
while accepting the peace talks:
Disadvantages:
1. Lets them fortify somewhat and rest their troops.
Advantages:
1. Keeps the Entente out of the war (this is dependent on the thread not screwing up our terms).
2. Keeps international opinion where it's at.
3. Allows us to replenish our stocks of equipment and allows us rest our troops.
4. Allows us to fortify our hold on the Russian front.
It's clear to me that we'd benefit much more from the rest than the Russians and Austrians, so militarily, getting this ceasefire is more sensible than continuing the war, and diplomatically, it's also more advantageous because we'd likely be able to avoid Entente intervention and keep our International standing from going into the gutter. We really don't want to get compared to Napoleon the european bogeyman, after all. While the Italians would provide us some help, I'd like to ask, why now? When the German army needs the rest? We would be better off doing a combined offensive with them, rather than letting them eat lead by themselves.
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- USA
i don't think any of these are true lmao, wars have been started in this era over far less. it's not exactly a secret that Germany and the League despised each other, it's something that observers are already taking into account. it's also not a guarantee that the Entente will do anything, and even if they do they'd have to interdict the blockades we've set up in the Baltic and Adriatic, which would entail starting a shooting war they probably don't want right now.
and while we'd be fighting without stockpiles, we're not exactly low supply? we have better industry than either Austria or Russia, we still handily beat both of them in materiel and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. all pausing will do is give them several months to reorganize - why give them that? move on East Prussia and have our allies flood into Hungary to put a nail in the Habsburg coffin. We can have our peace conference in Budapest, as far as I'm concerned.
EDIT: more to the point, if the Entente were interested in intervening on this matter, they'd have done it already by insisting we accept the negotiation *or else*. they haven't, instead they are pointedly remaining neutral, which tells me there is still no appetite for intervention.
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- Your pantry
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- He/Him
It's about image. Do you know how bad it looks for us when we flatly refuse the peace offer? Especially when it's over a a riverboat exploding? Millions have already died, and yet we want MORE over the dead bodies of potentially millions of other dead men because we weren't satisfied with the generous peace offer afforded to us. That's not a good look, at all. It makes us look like a red Napoleon. As for the supply situation, yes, we have factories, but factories need TIME to produce stuff. they don't just make it pop up like magic. Their disorganization doesn't really matter when we already hold the overwhelming advantage in numbers and firepower in Austris, especially when they lack the equipment that makes our defenses so potent.
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And that's without the annexation of territory mid-war without a treaty
We played nice with Scandinavia explicitly to have a freer hand against Austria and Russia. Accepting Czechia's annexation caused a bit of a stir but not a major one. We left the peace conference with Scandinavia with a fair bit of leverage banked after all.
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The... generous peace offer of, "We get to keep on oppressing and murdering people and drafting young boys and old men to die in the name of ancient blood-soaked dynasties, and I guess you can keep the territory that the people of the areas have overwhelmingly supported you in, if you're nice about it."
The offer is fucking bullshit, if you're going to argue for actually doing a Peace Treaty, and that's what you think is a generous offer...
Like, if you're for the peace conference to stall and look reasonable, fine.
If you're for the peace conference because you think you can get a non-bullshit offer, fine.
But pretending that that "starting offer" is anything other than nonsense? Pft.
The offer is fucking bullshit, if you're going to argue for actually doing a Peace Treaty, and that's what you think is a generous offer...
Like, if you're for the peace conference to stall and look reasonable, fine.
If you're for the peace conference because you think you can get a non-bullshit offer, fine.
But pretending that that "starting offer" is anything other than nonsense? Pft.
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- Lake Wobegon
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- He/Him/His
Nobody believes this is about a boat.
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- Your pantry
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- He/Him
But that's the casus belli. Nobody believes that, I agree. But it's still the reason why we did declare war on paper. our other reasons for war don't change that fact.
Yeah, and a good bit of the goodwill we gained in Scandinavia was likely spent when we just took Bohemia without a damn peace deal. Just sitting through this ceasefire can only do us good diplomatically, and militarily, it doesn't matter either way since I consider this war all but won.
I suppose I should have added paratheneses to it, but to an outside observer, yes, it does look rather generous when you consider we'd be taking much of Poland and the industrial heartland of Bohemia. I'm personally for stalling by doing a hardball peace deal, so please don't act so damn dismissive. It's annoying.
Anyways, I'm going to bed, And I'm no mood to play argument ping pong with 10 people.
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- USA
The Entente will not find what we get out of this war to be acceptable no matter what we do. Rather than hobble our momentum in this war in a pointless gesture of appeasement towards a future enemy, we should be focusing on ensuring that Austria-Hungary is dissolved in its entirety and that Russia is seriously wounded, such that the inevitable war with the Entente(and make no mistake, it is inevitable) is not one on multiple dangerous fronts.
- Location
- The Golden State
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- He/Him
[X] Refuse to negotiate.
Ah screw it, I'm gonna change my vote. While initially I was in the camp of negotiating to make some hard demands against the league and had some initial concerns of Entente intervention, I think momentum is in our side to crush Austria out of the game. Inevitably Russia might survive after the war, put much of Eastern Europe will be flying the crimson banner!
Ah screw it, I'm gonna change my vote. While initially I was in the camp of negotiating to make some hard demands against the league and had some initial concerns of Entente intervention, I think momentum is in our side to crush Austria out of the game. Inevitably Russia might survive after the war, put much of Eastern Europe will be flying the crimson banner!
that's baby stuff they could do.I wouldn't be suprised if they decide to straight up ethnically cleanse the areas in rebellion and replace the dead with russian settlers
[X] Refuse to negotiate.
- Pronouns
- he/him
the strategic point of this war wasn't to annex territory or to expand republicanism, though those are excellent and necessary side effects, the point of this war was to eliminate the imperial league as a strategic concern. any peace deal or consequence of this conference goes against those aims. we will be dictating terms to the imperial league when we have shown absolute dominance, and those terms will be the dissolution of their polities. taking a break to seem reasonable to the other imperialists is actively harmful to our goal to break the military capability of the russian state and the destruction of the hapsburgs. peace conferences should only be agreed to when you actually intend to negotiate peace, we can do that once hungary is occupied and russia is pushed out of their colonial holdings.
- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
[X] Refuse to negotiate.
I'm coming around to refusing to negotiate. I think that we're going to be able to significantly improve our position vis-a-vis Austria in the coming campaign turn so it seems like a mistake to let up the pressure in the south. RE: some folks supply concerns, while the German shell stock has been significantly depleted, I doubt the Allied armies are running quite so low, so they should be able to press the attack against an already faltering Austria. Austria's already consolidating armies rather than call up more manpower, and huge portions of their productive territory are under their control. It seems to me that the offer to negotiate is coming as the League realizes that the Austrian position is rapidly becoming untenable, and they're aiming to forestall a complete collapse in the their southern front.
I'm coming around to refusing to negotiate. I think that we're going to be able to significantly improve our position vis-a-vis Austria in the coming campaign turn so it seems like a mistake to let up the pressure in the south. RE: some folks supply concerns, while the German shell stock has been significantly depleted, I doubt the Allied armies are running quite so low, so they should be able to press the attack against an already faltering Austria. Austria's already consolidating armies rather than call up more manpower, and huge portions of their productive territory are under their control. It seems to me that the offer to negotiate is coming as the League realizes that the Austrian position is rapidly becoming untenable, and they're aiming to forestall a complete collapse in the their southern front.
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[X] Enter into negotiations.
Let's not choke on the fruits of victory now, shall we? As much as we all want to destroy the League, the longer this war goes on and the more expansionist we appaer The more likely the Entente will intervene on the side of the League. A war on two fronts will not be feasible and to defeat Russia we will still need to invade Russia, a country notorious for its vast land and inability to be conquered while we occupy Austria Hungary which will most likely devolve into Yugoslav like conflicts as minorities, Nationalist, and radical political groups all try to murder us and eachother.
KNOW WHEN TO QUIT WHILE YOURE AHEAD.
Let's not choke on the fruits of victory now, shall we? As much as we all want to destroy the League, the longer this war goes on and the more expansionist we appaer The more likely the Entente will intervene on the side of the League. A war on two fronts will not be feasible and to defeat Russia we will still need to invade Russia, a country notorious for its vast land and inability to be conquered while we occupy Austria Hungary which will most likely devolve into Yugoslav like conflicts as minorities, Nationalist, and radical political groups all try to murder us and eachother.
KNOW WHEN TO QUIT WHILE YOURE AHEAD.