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Springtime of Nations II: A European Republic Quest

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So besides the old rifles and broom handle Mausers what use can we send to the Chinese Republicans machine guns and mortars can imagine but not heavy artillery and stuff?
 
In terms of what I would like from the conference, I think it'd be nice if we could form a Yugoslavia, even if it doesn't include Serbia
 
[x] Plan: Lines on a Map
-[X] What the hell, invite everyone.
-[X] No strings attached to any transfers.
-[X] Let's take this point-by-point.
 
Manowl said:
So besides the old rifles and broom handle Mausers what use can we send to the Chinese Republicans machine guns and mortars can imagine but not heavy artillery and stuff?
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I don't see why we couldn't provide everything since Krupp sold heavy artillery to the Chinese IRL, although the reformist faction might not particulary want ones that are strictly rail-mobile. We have a surplus right now of basically everything that you need to run a military offensive since we were stockpiling over the winter, and presumably it's all stored in depots ready for quick transport to the front, so getting it onto ships to China shouldn't be a problem.

Of course, I'm assuming that any sort of "sale" would be a fabrication to maintain at least a little deniability; I am strongly against us war profiteering in civil wars like this.
 
[X] Plan Balkan Frat party
-[X] What the hell, invite everyone.
-[X] No strings attached to any transfers. (+2 leverage)
-[X] ...But just for the east. (-4 leverage)
 
Slovenia is one of the ex-Habsburg regions whose disposition is getting decided at the conference, Slovakia is the one which (as part of Habsburg Bohemia) asked to join Germany.
 
Andrensath said:
Slovenia is one of the ex-Habsburg regions whose disposition is getting decided at the conference, Slovakia is the one which (as part of Habsburg Bohemia) asked to join Germany.
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That's backwards. Slovakia is part of Translethania (indeed, part of Hungary) and is having its disposition is being decided at the conference. So is Slavonia (although it's part of Croatia-Slavonia). Slovenia was part of Cislethania (indeed, part of Austria Proper as the lands of Carinola and southern Styria) and has been annexed to Germany.
 
[X] Plan The Grand Reorganizing for All
-[X] What the hell, invite everyone.
-[X] All territorial transfers must be ratified by plebiscite.
-[X] ...But just for the east.
 
Fingon888 said:
On the question of plebiscites, I think that is a really bad idea.

These are regions that really don't have any united national identity. Shackling us to that is really dangerous for our two aims in the Conference. We must first create borders and states which maximize German influence and security. Secondly, we must mollify the Russians and Entente and seek borders which can be conducive to peace in the region.

Many of these regions are extremely ethnically diverse, some of that is geographically aligned some of it is not. Furthermore these ethnicities are very open to change. Is a Bosniak a Serb? In this period many would say yes, many would say no, there is no guarantee they would end up as different national identities as they did in our history.

I also find it odd to tie ourselves to the democratic principle so stringently in terms of borders and statehood when we are so willing to use radical and long reconstruction to ensure favorable outcomes in annexed regions. Surely if we cannot trust these populations to vote in a legislative election how can we trust them to vote for what nation they belong to?
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Ideally, the plebiscites would have two stages I imagine: First, an approval vote for all transfers that people would consider tolerable. Second, a more normal vote on the most practical (to prevent excessive border gore, microstates and exclaves) of the frontrunners, though it should also be possible to vote 'these all suck, back to the drawing board'.


[X] Plan The Grand Reorganizing for All

I am opposed to not holding plebiscites.
 
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    • Scheduled vote count started by Etranger on Jul 13, 2023 at 10:12 AM, finished with 81 posts and 64 votes.
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    The Second Vienna Conference, Part 2: 1900
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    • The Second Vienna Conference, Part 2: 1900​

    Having addressed the high-level points and determined the basic structure of the Conference, the Alliance begins sending out invitations. Soon, the Schonbrunn is bustling with delegates from several dozen countries, with even non-participating observers from as far away as the United States in attendance. Vienna has once become a nexus for diplomacy and international wheeling-dealing in a way that it hasn't been since the twilight of the Napoleonic Era.

    The first item on the agenda is to issue a statement of principles regarding the Alliance's goals in the Conference. Put simply, does the Alliance wish to see some form of multinational structure perpetuated, albeit one without the Austrian Habsburgs, or is it truly time to divide up a centuries-old empire and give its constituent parts national self-determination? The former may well avoid a great deal of antagonism and ethno-nationalist strife, but the latter is far more expedient and palatable to the attendees.

    Furthermore, three of the nations in attendance have come with territorial claims on the former Habsburg Empire, and it would be best to get those out of the way early. Romania's aim is to complete its national borders by taking much of the eastern Empire. Meanwhile, Montenegro seeks a coastline to improve its economy and security. Finally, the Serbian monarchy seeks a union of South Slavic states to propel itself into the ranks of the middle powers, and their desire for the southern Empire is palpable.

    These are the questions of the day before the Alliance, and they must be answered before the individual dispositions of the remaining territories can be determined.



    What is to be done?

    Allied Regional Goals
    [] We will build a community of nations.
    EFFECT: +2 Leverage. The Allied sphere is to consist of sovereign nation-states. Improved relations with the Entente.

    [] We will build a federation of equals.
    EFFECT: The Allied sphere is to be united into a multinational state (or possibly several). Reduced relations with the Entente.

    The Montenegrin Agenda
    [] We accept the Montenegrin request for Kotor.
    EFFECT: Montenegro gains Kotor. Greatly improved relations with Montenegro.

    [] We decline the Montenegrin request.
    EFFECT: -2 Leverage. Montenegro does not gain territory. Severely reduced relations with Montenegro.

    The Serbian Agenda
    [] We accept the Serbian request for Vojvodina.
    EFFECT: Serbia gains Vojvodina. Improved relations with Serbia.

    [] We accept the Serbian request for Bosnia.
    EFFECT: Serbia gains Bosnia. Improved relations with Serbia.

    [] We accept the Serbian request for Vojvodina and Bosnia.
    EFFECT: Serbia gains Vojvodina and Bosnia. Greatly improved relations with Serbia.

    [] We accept the Serbian request for Bosnia and Dalmatia.
    EFFECT: Serbia gains Bosnia and Dalmatia. Greatly improved relations with Serbia.

    [] We accept the Serbian request in full.
    EFFECT: Serbia gains Vojvodina, Bosnia, and Dalmatia. Tremendously improved relations with Serbia.

    [] We decline the Serbian request.
    EFFECT: -2 Leverage. Serbia does not gain territory. Severely reduced relations with Serbia.

    The Romanian Agenda
    [] We accept the Romanian request for Transylvania.
    EFFECT: Romania gains Transylvania. Greatly improved relations with Romania.

    [] We accept the Romanian request in full.
    EFFECT: Romania gains Transylvania and the Banat. Tremendously improved relations with Romania.

    [] We decline the Romanian request.
    EFFECT: -2 Leverage. Romania does not gain territory. Severely reduced relations with Romania.


    You now have 10 Leverage.

    As a reminder: If the final deal is 0 Leverage, it will be automatically accepted. For any deal at +1 or higher, you will gain foreign relations bonuses. Any deal at -1 or -2 Leverage may be subject to rejection, counter-offer, or foreign relations penalties. Any deal below -2 Leverage isn't valid. If the system falls apart, I'll fix it somehow.

    The next phase will be about establishing a sphere of influence over the eastern territories and the nations which end up receiving them. If you hand Habsburg territory to an existing nation, then you'll get to use Leverage to establish influence over that nation in the next phase. Any nation that is denied territory during this phase will not be eligible to be influenced during the conference.

    If you establish influence over a nation, you will be able to make demands after the conference, including democratization and plebiscites, among other things. This ability only goes so far when dealing with monarchist states.

    If you choose "federation of equals," you may elect to build multiple multinational states.

    If you give Kotor to Montenegro and Dalmatia to Serbia, Montenegro gets its province before Serbia takes the rest.

    Any choice without a listed Leverage cost does not increase or reduce Leverage. This is not a typo.

    24 hours to consider, then 24 hours to vote. Please vote by plan. Here's an example plan:

    [] Plan: Let's All Get Along
    -[] We will build a community of nations.
    -[] We accept the Montenegrin request for Kotor.
    -[] ...And Dalmatia.
    -[] ...And the Banat.
     
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    • I find it very funny that by giving Serbia all it's claims, they'd be eating out of the palm of our hand. In all seriousness, we should at least consider Montenegro and Serbia's requests, if only to keep them out of the Entente's sphere. Romania can go screw itself, for all that I care. We want them to fall into civil strife.
     
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    [] We will build a federation of equals.
    [] We accept the Montenegrin request for Kotor.
    [] We decline the Serbian request.
    [] We decline the Romanian request.
    Yo Montenegro is a fan of the Knights Of The Old Republic?
    I am wondering if we maybe accept the basic Serbian request and build a canal from the Mures to the Danube in Hungary, bypassing Serbia, if necessary?

     
    [] Plan All Of You Scram, Except You Montenegro, You Can Stay
    -[] We will build a federation of equals.
    -[] We accept the Montenegrin request for Kotor.
    -[] We decline the Serbian request.
    -[] We decline the Romanian request.
     
    [] Plan: The National Principle
    -[] We will build a community of nations.
    -[] We accept the Montenegrin request for Kotor.
    -[] We accept the Serbian request for Vojvodina and Bosnia.
    -[] We accept the Romanian request in full.


    This plan in my view gives us the greatest chance of turning enemies and neutral states into friends. Serbia will be grateful to us and see us as the natural ally against Bulgarian aggression rather than the faraway Entente, particularly because we will be denying them a seaport. Serbia will not be able to rely on British and French shipping lines as Greece does and therefore will be much more amenable to working with us in the future. On Romania, we will be satisfying the main extent of their territorial claims and draw them out of the Russian sphere. The only territorial ambitions of Romania following this plan will be against Russia herself and therefore we will make a long-term alliance with Russia very difficult for the Romanians. Even if Romania goes into the arms of the Entente this serves our purpose because it isolates Bulgaria and cuts the Bulgarians off from the Russians overland, forcing the Russians to supply the Bulgarians only via the Black Sea.

    Further, I reject the notion of a major of multiethnic state, we have just destroyed the multiethnic empire, the prison of nations. We need to satisfy the aspirations of national self determination first that is inherent in the promise of the Revolutions of 1789 and 1848 before we begin to create socialism in these regions.

    From this plan we gain a Serbian ally, a friend at least in Montenegro, we drive Bucharest from the Russian sphere, and we establish national self-determination the first stepping stone on the path of modernization and towards socialism.
     
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