Springtime of Nations II: A European Republic Quest
- Thread starter Etranger
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
- Location
- France
- Pronouns
- She/They
The Sackville-Baggins to our Baggins if you will
Bel-what? Now you're just making up countries.
- Location
- USA
the true lesson of SoN - the Low Countries are a myth and anyone who claims otherwise is a counter-revolutionary that must be destroyed
- Location
- Under your couch
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If you do stick to the threadmarks, the dicussion got pretty heated and very salty.
Lots of leftist infighting, which is a proud tradition of the left.
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DracoDracul
Transbian Communist
- Location
- Austin
- Pronouns
- She/They
Heated, salty discussions are half the fun of quests. The really sad thing is that I won't be able to read the civil war era discords because they don't exist anymore.
Not to mention we won our little unofficial rivalry by killing a giant capitalist dragon and bringing back a bunch of loot to brag about to all our neighbors.The Sackville-Baggins to our Baggins if you will
Then we would have to deal with *gags* Flanders.Belgium is a multiethnic country just like the ones we are trying to create. Dismantling it would be counterproductive and indeed more countries should be belgium!
- Location
- Under your couch
- Pronouns
- He/Him
- Location
- USA
clearly we need to conquer france for the sole purpose of being able to build a canal to completely circumvent the low countries
not even worth invading, just blockade their ports with the marinewehr and dig a big moat around their borders
make them sit in time-out and think about what they did
Talking about what the Entente thinks of us... This is right after the Treaty of Gothenburg:
TvTropes: Your Approval Fills Me With Shame.
TvTropes: Your Approval Fills Me With Shame.
- Location
- Australia
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Tbh it's mostly the minorities I am afraid for, I don't want any cultural 'assimilation' going on in a ethnically diverse region
The Second Vienna Conference, Part 3: 1900
- Location
- the Republic
- Pronouns
- He/They
The Second Vienna Conference, Part 3: 1900
The Romanian delegates storm out of the Conference, never to return. Deliberations are briefly muted by the outburst, though the subsequent cessions of territory to a pleased Serbia and a delighted Montenegro do much to revive the mood.
Only one item remains on the primary agenda: determining the Alliance's claims to influence over the remaining territories. In theory, this just covers the unallotted areas still on the map, but in practice this is also an opportunity to stake a claim to the two recipient nations, Serbia and Montenegro, should the Alliance wish to capitalize on their gratitude.
Should the Alliance craft a proposal that's acceptable to all present, then all that's left after that is a nebulous "general affairs of the Balkans" secondary agenda. It will be wide-ranging in nature, allowing for trade treaties and other bilateral agreements, but the part everyone's really interested in is the stated intent of the Alliance and the Entente to... "adjudicate" the borders set by the Treaty of San Stefano.
And so the states of the Balkans watch, and listen, and sharpen their knives, as the Bulgarian delegation looks on with trepidation...
What is to be done?
Transylvania
[] Transylvania can go its own way.
EFFECT: +2 Leverage. Transylvania will not be recognized as part of any bloc's sphere and its fate will be determined by local authorities.
[] Transylvania should reside within the Allied sphere.
EFFECT: -4 Leverage. Transylvania will be recognized as part of the Allied sphere and its fate will be determined by the Prague Commission.
Banat
[] Banat can go its own way.
EFFECT: +1 Leverage. Banat will not be recognized as part of any bloc's sphere and its fate will be determined by local authorities.
[] Banat should reside within the Allied sphere.
EFFECT: -2 Leverage. Banat will be recognized as part of the Allied sphere and its fate will be determined by the Prague Commission.
Bosnia
[] Bosnia can go its own way.
EFFECT: +2 Leverage. Bosnia will not be recognized as part of any bloc's sphere and its fate will be determined by local authorities.
[] Bosnia should reside within the Allied sphere.
EFFECT: -4 Leverage. Bosnia will be recognized as part of the Allied sphere and its fate will be determined by the Prague Commission.
Dalmatia
[] Dalmatia can go its own way.
EFFECT: +1 Leverage. Dalmatia will not be recognized as part of any bloc's sphere and its fate will be determined by local authorities.
[] Dalmatia should reside within the Allied sphere.
EFFECT: -2 Leverage. Dalmatia will be recognized as part of the Allied sphere and its fate will be determined by the Prague Commission.
Serbia
[] Serbia can go its own way.
EFFECT: +2 Leverage. Serbia will not be recognized as part of any bloc's sphere.
[] Serbia should reside within the Allied sphere.
EFFECT: -4 Leverage. Serbia will be recognized as part of the Allied sphere.
Montenegro
[] Montenegro can go its own way.
EFFECT: +1 Leverage. Montenegro will not be recognized as part of any bloc's sphere.
[] Montenegro should reside within the Allied sphere.
EFFECT: -2 Leverage. Montenegro will be recognized as part of the Allied sphere.
You now have 8 Leverage.
As a reminder: If the final deal is 0 Leverage, it will be automatically accepted. For any deal at +1 or higher, you will gain foreign relations bonuses. Any deal at -1 or -2 Leverage may be subject to rejection, counter-offer, or foreign relations penalties. Any deal below -2 Leverage isn't valid. If the system falls apart, I'll fix it somehow.
The final phase will be a non-Leverage phase in which the Alliance will be able to cast its votes on various territorial claims made by Balkan nations against each other. You do not need to save Leverage for the final phase.
If you establish influence over Serbia and/or Montenegro, you will be able to make demands after the conference, including democratization and plebiscites, among other things. This ability only goes so far when dealing with monarchist states.
The final borders of the Balkan territories under your control will be determined at another meeting of the Prague Commission, which comes after the end of the Second Vienna Conference.
24 hours to consider, then 24 hours to vote. Please vote by plan. Here's an example plan:
[] Plan: Let's All Get Along
-[] Transylvania can go its own way.
-[] Banat can go its own way.
-[] Bosnia can go its own way.
-[] Dalmatia can go its own way.
-[] Serbia can go its own way.
-[] Montenegro can go its own way.
Regency
PFP by vanathema (previously yubishines)
- Location
- Morioh Town, Mt. Ebbot
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Heheheh
Does this mean locals would participate in plebiscites for which future members of the Alliance they would join, like what happened in Poland, Galicia, Austria et al?
- Location
- somewhere on this dying planet
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Out of all these, I feel that Transylvania and Banat should be brought into our sphere, since I don't trust Romania not to try invading them at some point in the future.
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Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
[] Plan: Don't Care About Kings
-[] Transylvania should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Banat should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Bosnia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Dalmatia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Serbia can go its own way.
-[] Montenegro can go its own way.
-1 Leverage
-[] Transylvania should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Banat should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Bosnia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Dalmatia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Serbia can go its own way.
-[] Montenegro can go its own way.
-1 Leverage
- Location
- America
[] Just the Territory, no Monarchies
-[] Transylvania should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Banat should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Bosnia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Dalmatia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Serbia can go its own way.
-[] Montenegro can go its own way.
This leaves us with -1 leverage, but that doesn't mean it'll be rejected, could have a counter offer or acceptance with reduced relations. I support taking the lands rather than trying to influence Serbia and Montenengro because it's explicit that we'll be limited in how we can influence them since they're still monarchies. Better to make our sphere proper republics than try to reform and prop up monarchies.
-[] Transylvania should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Banat should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Bosnia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Dalmatia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Serbia can go its own way.
-[] Montenegro can go its own way.
This leaves us with -1 leverage, but that doesn't mean it'll be rejected, could have a counter offer or acceptance with reduced relations. I support taking the lands rather than trying to influence Serbia and Montenengro because it's explicit that we'll be limited in how we can influence them since they're still monarchies. Better to make our sphere proper republics than try to reform and prop up monarchies.
Astra Myst
Do you want a wish?
- Location
- Milky Way Galaxy
[] Plan: Balkan Henchman (2 Leverage)
-[] Transylvania should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Banat can go its own way.
-[] Bosnia can go its own way.
-[] Dalmatia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Serbia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Montenegro can go its own way.
Offering up concessions to Serbia to make them more pliant to our influence
-[] Transylvania should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Banat can go its own way.
-[] Bosnia can go its own way.
-[] Dalmatia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Serbia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Montenegro can go its own way.
Offering up concessions to Serbia to make them more pliant to our influence
- Location
- the Republic
- Pronouns
- He/They
Correct.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[] Plan: Pissing Off Romania and Building Things
-[] Transylvania should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Banat can go its own way.
-[] Bosnia can go its own way.
-[] Dalmatia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Serbia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Montenegro can go its own way.
This leaves us with some to spare, but that's just goodwill.
Oh, someone beat me to it.
-[] Transylvania should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Banat can go its own way.
-[] Bosnia can go its own way.
-[] Dalmatia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Serbia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Montenegro can go its own way.
This leaves us with some to spare, but that's just goodwill.
Oh, someone beat me to it.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
I agree. To add onto this, Banat should be let do it's own thing (they'll probably join a neighbor) and it might be worth influencing Serbia for control of the Danube.
- Location
- India
those who can go in their way able to choose to stay with us on their free will?
I'm thinking of something like so:
[] Plan: Foot in the Door
-[] Transylvania should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Banat can go its own way.
-[] Bosnia can go its own way.
-[] Dalmatia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Serbia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Montenegro should reside within the Allied sphere.
While Serbia and Montenegro will be less influenced by being in our sphere than Bosnia and Banat, I suspect local authorities within Banat and Bosnia will be looking for a neighbour to join with, and this denies them anything not in our sphere except for Romania (and Romania's not doing so hot right now, so I think the odds are good). We can then use our influence over Serbia and Montenegro to emplace wedges that'll weaken the monarchies, even if we can't remove them outright (e.g., better civil rights, support for unions, reduction of border restrictions with Alliance nations, etc.).
[] Plan: Foot in the Door
-[] Transylvania should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Banat can go its own way.
-[] Bosnia can go its own way.
-[] Dalmatia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Serbia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Montenegro should reside within the Allied sphere.
While Serbia and Montenegro will be less influenced by being in our sphere than Bosnia and Banat, I suspect local authorities within Banat and Bosnia will be looking for a neighbour to join with, and this denies them anything not in our sphere except for Romania (and Romania's not doing so hot right now, so I think the odds are good). We can then use our influence over Serbia and Montenegro to emplace wedges that'll weaken the monarchies, even if we can't remove them outright (e.g., better civil rights, support for unions, reduction of border restrictions with Alliance nations, etc.).
- Location
- Fear and Loathing in Red Moscow
[] Plan: Strategic Considerations and Montenegrin Friendship
-[] Transylvania should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Banat should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Bosnia can go its own way.
-[] Dalmatia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Serbia can go its own way.
-[] Montenegro should reside within the Allied sphere.
Leverage total: 2
I will be willing to back the plans put forward by Aedan and Random Member (identical plans, different name) which seek to secure all the gained territory and not interfering in the disposition and politics of the established states of Montenegro and Serbia because it makes the most strategic sense, but I present this plan as a possible alternative that is slightly less militarily potent but would provide significant diplomatic benefits to Germany over the other plan.
First, it secures the main goal of ensuring Transylvania, the Banat, and Dalmatia remain within our sphere. These are the most important areas militarily as our main foe in the Balkans is Romania so we must secure the Romanian frontier and Dalmatia will provide us a base for our Adriatic and Mediterranean power while deny it to the Entente and Serbia.
Secondly, it will secure Montenegro as our ally and part of our sphere. Montenegro is already quite happy with us for granting them Kotor and for bringing them out of the Russian sphere. Montenegro understands that it cannot guarantee its own security and while it may be able to play us off against Serbia well, we can provide a more ironclad security guarantee with them in our sphere. The cost of this will likely be democratization and our control of their foreign policy, even if we cannot swing an immediate deposition of the Montenegrin Prince. Serbia will likely continue to pursue a seaport, particularly with their position already strengthened with Vojvodina and potential gains they may make against Bulgaria (I for one think we should push for them to gain Nis at the least, if not FYROM Macedonia). If the Entente wish to bring Serbia into their sphere following this conference then giving them Montenegro, either through direct annexation or as a de facto puppet state, would be a huge prize which would certainly overpower the good will we have won with Belgrade so far and which I hope to continue to build. Montenegro in our sphere and with a security guarantee will prevent this outcome and mean we are far more likely to keep Serbia out of the Entente and maintain cordial relations with Belgrade.
The obvious cost here is that we let Bosnia go. The result in Bosnia is deeply uncertain. This could cause serious problems in the future if a conflict develops there and we may have to worry about Serbia exploiting difficulties or chaos in Bosnia to annex the region. However, we could use diplomatic means to prevent that and to support an independent Bosnian state. I didn't think we should have kept Serbia from Bosnia in the first place, but now that we have done so we can allow the region to try and form its own government and deal with the consequences as they come about. The territory is not militarily important except for the security of Dalmatia but that security is largely guaranteed by our Italian alliance and the strength of our forces.
Furthermore, Etranger stated that finishing the conference with positive leverage will increase our diplomatic standing, something that would greatly help in securing a long enough peace with the Entente to recover from the war effort and to head off any Romanian challenge or discontent in the future.
-[] Transylvania should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Banat should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Bosnia can go its own way.
-[] Dalmatia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Serbia can go its own way.
-[] Montenegro should reside within the Allied sphere.
Leverage total: 2
I will be willing to back the plans put forward by Aedan and Random Member (identical plans, different name) which seek to secure all the gained territory and not interfering in the disposition and politics of the established states of Montenegro and Serbia because it makes the most strategic sense, but I present this plan as a possible alternative that is slightly less militarily potent but would provide significant diplomatic benefits to Germany over the other plan.
First, it secures the main goal of ensuring Transylvania, the Banat, and Dalmatia remain within our sphere. These are the most important areas militarily as our main foe in the Balkans is Romania so we must secure the Romanian frontier and Dalmatia will provide us a base for our Adriatic and Mediterranean power while deny it to the Entente and Serbia.
Secondly, it will secure Montenegro as our ally and part of our sphere. Montenegro is already quite happy with us for granting them Kotor and for bringing them out of the Russian sphere. Montenegro understands that it cannot guarantee its own security and while it may be able to play us off against Serbia well, we can provide a more ironclad security guarantee with them in our sphere. The cost of this will likely be democratization and our control of their foreign policy, even if we cannot swing an immediate deposition of the Montenegrin Prince. Serbia will likely continue to pursue a seaport, particularly with their position already strengthened with Vojvodina and potential gains they may make against Bulgaria (I for one think we should push for them to gain Nis at the least, if not FYROM Macedonia). If the Entente wish to bring Serbia into their sphere following this conference then giving them Montenegro, either through direct annexation or as a de facto puppet state, would be a huge prize which would certainly overpower the good will we have won with Belgrade so far and which I hope to continue to build. Montenegro in our sphere and with a security guarantee will prevent this outcome and mean we are far more likely to keep Serbia out of the Entente and maintain cordial relations with Belgrade.
The obvious cost here is that we let Bosnia go. The result in Bosnia is deeply uncertain. This could cause serious problems in the future if a conflict develops there and we may have to worry about Serbia exploiting difficulties or chaos in Bosnia to annex the region. However, we could use diplomatic means to prevent that and to support an independent Bosnian state. I didn't think we should have kept Serbia from Bosnia in the first place, but now that we have done so we can allow the region to try and form its own government and deal with the consequences as they come about. The territory is not militarily important except for the security of Dalmatia but that security is largely guaranteed by our Italian alliance and the strength of our forces.
Furthermore, Etranger stated that finishing the conference with positive leverage will increase our diplomatic standing, something that would greatly help in securing a long enough peace with the Entente to recover from the war effort and to head off any Romanian challenge or discontent in the future.
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- Location
- Australia
[] Plan: Let the people decide their future.
-[] Transylvania can go its own way.
-[] Banat can go its own way.
-[] Bosnia can go its own way.
-[] Dalmatia can go its own way.
-[] Serbia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Montenegro should reside within the Allied sphere.
Leverage cost net 0
Leverage total: 8
Let the people of places decide what is best for them. Serbia and Montenegro as monarchists doesn't get that right.
-[] Transylvania can go its own way.
-[] Banat can go its own way.
-[] Bosnia can go its own way.
-[] Dalmatia can go its own way.
-[] Serbia should reside within the Allied sphere.
-[] Montenegro should reside within the Allied sphere.
Leverage cost net 0
Leverage total: 8
Let the people of places decide what is best for them. Serbia and Montenegro as monarchists doesn't get that right.
Regency
PFP by vanathema (previously yubishines)
- Location
- Morioh Town, Mt. Ebbot
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Reminder that we're gonna let local authorities decide - and at this point in time in the region (former Habsburg Empire) that means local aristocrats and high capitalists instead of being representative of the majority workers and peasants.
Another reminder is that we didn't pick the "they will all be republics" option in the first part of the Second Vienna Conference.