Springtime of Nations II: A European Republic Quest
- Thread starter Etranger
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
- Location
- Fear and Loathing in Red Moscow
[] Plan A Europe of Nations
-[] ...And Serbia, too.
-[] No strings attached to any transfers.
-[] Let's take this point-by-point.
Effect: +2 Leverage for a total of 14 going into the Conference.
This is a plan to have a Conference which will seek a satisfactory and mutually agreed upon solution to the Habsburg partition. Conducting this conference without it being interpreted as brow-beating, particularly on questions of regime, will be of great diplomatic benefit to Germany. We will be able to highly influence the character of the regions we control and begin to draw Romania away from Russia by mollifying their territorial ambitions potentially. Secondly, we have the potential to become friends with Serbia, or at least partners. Serbia and Romania, while monarchies, also represent the great rising of the nation which was the promise of 1848. A Europe of Nations is required for peace and while republics in Bucharest and Belgrade are preferable to monarchies, these governments are still preferable to ancient multiethnic empires, those prisons of nations (in the views of 19th century nationalists and socialists, the people who run our government).
-[] ...And Serbia, too.
-[] No strings attached to any transfers.
-[] Let's take this point-by-point.
Effect: +2 Leverage for a total of 14 going into the Conference.
This is a plan to have a Conference which will seek a satisfactory and mutually agreed upon solution to the Habsburg partition. Conducting this conference without it being interpreted as brow-beating, particularly on questions of regime, will be of great diplomatic benefit to Germany. We will be able to highly influence the character of the regions we control and begin to draw Romania away from Russia by mollifying their territorial ambitions potentially. Secondly, we have the potential to become friends with Serbia, or at least partners. Serbia and Romania, while monarchies, also represent the great rising of the nation which was the promise of 1848. A Europe of Nations is required for peace and while republics in Bucharest and Belgrade are preferable to monarchies, these governments are still preferable to ancient multiethnic empires, those prisons of nations (in the views of 19th century nationalists and socialists, the people who run our government).
- Location
- SF Bay Area
How do the Istrians feel about that?
- Location
- Your pantry
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[] Plan Balkan Frat party
-[] What the hell, invite everyone.
-[] No strings attached to any transfers. (+2 leverage)
-[] ...But just for the east. (-4 leverage)
If we're inviting Serbia, is there a reason not to invite everyone at that point? I'm curious really. But yeah, just putting this plan up for those interested. It's the messiest option, but the one that perhaps provides the biggest rewards.
-[] What the hell, invite everyone.
-[] No strings attached to any transfers. (+2 leverage)
-[] ...But just for the east. (-4 leverage)
If we're inviting Serbia, is there a reason not to invite everyone at that point? I'm curious really. But yeah, just putting this plan up for those interested. It's the messiest option, but the one that perhaps provides the biggest rewards.
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- Location
- France
- Pronouns
- She/They
I like messy, I think it will give us more room to foster non-Entente and non-Russian solutions. I'll probably approval vote that one too.
All I really want is keeping what we occupy and not wasting too much leverage on choosing the form of states we won't reconstruct.
- Location
- Fear and Loathing in Red Moscow
Yes, because Serbia actually has a strategic, territorial, and nationalist interest in the disposition of the former Austrian territories unlike Greece, Bulgaria, and Albania. The invitation of Romania and Montenegro is already covered under the League states option, they obviously have an interest. Serbia of course has an interest bordering Austria and in the regions of Bosnia, Vojvodina, potentially the Banat, etc.
The real danger of inviting Greece, Bulgaria, and Albania is opening up the Bulgarian Question. Bulgaria has been aggrandized by the Treaty of San Stefano and is therefore an enemy with the Greeks and Serbs. This is why Greece and Serbia wanted to join the war, to carve up both the Habsburg monarchy and seize territories from Bulgaria. Opening the Bulgarian Question at this conference would be a disaster because it would distract from the present issues of partitioning Austria and potentially lead to another Balkan War.
- Location
- Your pantry
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The thing is, we WANT the Balkans powers bickering with eachover. I imagine the Entente will try wrangling them, unsuccessfully I might add. They'll all exhaust eachover. we might have some issues with Romania? But we can probably spend some of our leverage to keep Transylvania out of their mitts. It's not like they would have much of it themselves, considering they're on the losing side of the Eastern War. That said, this is all speculation, which is why the plan is 'messy'. If we want clear cut gains in addition to what we're already getting in the West, picking to invite the Major European powers makes the most sense.
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- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
We might. Italy and Spain have grand strategies that center around a free Mediterranean, however, and in the context of a conference we called, letting the Entente meddle in the Balkans, however successfully, is contrary to that.
Regency
PFP by vanathema (previously yubishines)
- Location
- Morioh Town, Mt. Ebbot
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I'm going for this plan come next vote. It commits to territorial transfers by plebiscite, secures territories occupied by us atm (Hungary, Slovakia, Croatia, & Slavonia), plus the first option triggering general Danubian-Balkan conference makes things more interesting (edit: as in, more fun to play for me as a player)
- Location
- Fear and Loathing in Red Moscow
Trust me, they'll be bickering with each other anyway. The conflict with Serbia and Greece against Bulgaria will definitely be a wedge against Russo-Entente unity, but this really isn't the forum to bring that up in. It'll just distract from the main goal, which is creating conditions favorable to us while mollifying the Entente (primarily) and the Russians (secondarily). I think not inviting Serbia while inviting Romania and Montenegro would be a huge error though. The way I see it the only two options are just hashing out everything among the Great Powers or inviting the bordering nations. If we can bring Romania more over to neutrality by mollifying their territorial ambitions as well then we might bring them out of the Russian sphere, at least to neutrality maybe to the Entente which would drive the Balkan conflict even more since Russia would have to commit to Bulgaria in the long term, making Russo-Entente union difficult.
Opening Bulgaria is good for us though, we can let the Entente do whatever they'd like there, giving us more points to do what we want elsewhere.
- Location
- France
- Pronouns
- She/They
That's a tolerable compromise between the maximum and minimum constraints on transfers. In a pinch, I'll vote for that, it still saves much of our leverage.
- Location
- Your pantry
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I don't think we'll be able to do much to bring Greece in our sphere, but we could probably still leverage our influence to bring Albania into our sphere, which is the biggest prize to be had for Italy. With Albania, they'd be able to control what goes in and out of the Adriatic after all. The Entente are already going to be meddling, it's just a matter of distracting and exhausting them really, which is what inviting everyone should do.
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- Location
- Fear and Loathing in Red Moscow
On the question of plebiscites, I think that is a really bad idea.
These are regions that really don't have any united national identity. Shackling us to that is really dangerous for our two aims in the Conference. We must first create borders and states which maximize German influence and security. Secondly, we must mollify the Russians and Entente and seek borders which can be conducive to peace in the region.
Many of these regions are extremely ethnically diverse, some of that is geographically aligned some of it is not. Furthermore these ethnicities are very open to change. Is a Bosniak a Serb? In this period many would say yes, many would say no, there is no guarantee they would end up as different national identities as they did in our history.
I also find it odd to tie ourselves to the democratic principle so stringently in terms of borders and statehood when we are so willing to use radical and long reconstruction to ensure favorable outcomes in annexed regions. Surely if we cannot trust these populations to vote in a legislative election how can we trust them to vote for what nation they belong to?
These are regions that really don't have any united national identity. Shackling us to that is really dangerous for our two aims in the Conference. We must first create borders and states which maximize German influence and security. Secondly, we must mollify the Russians and Entente and seek borders which can be conducive to peace in the region.
Many of these regions are extremely ethnically diverse, some of that is geographically aligned some of it is not. Furthermore these ethnicities are very open to change. Is a Bosniak a Serb? In this period many would say yes, many would say no, there is no guarantee they would end up as different national identities as they did in our history.
I also find it odd to tie ourselves to the democratic principle so stringently in terms of borders and statehood when we are so willing to use radical and long reconstruction to ensure favorable outcomes in annexed regions. Surely if we cannot trust these populations to vote in a legislative election how can we trust them to vote for what nation they belong to?
Regency
PFP by vanathema (previously yubishines)
- Location
- Morioh Town, Mt. Ebbot
- Pronouns
- They/Them
The way elections in Allied-reconstructed countries go has been explained by the QM as contradictory to your claim here. That (lack of) comprehension requires not reading or willful misunderstanding -as does your continued misconception on how German social-and-radicals in a social-radical republic would operate after 20-odd years of progressing radicalization, on the back of 50-odd years post-PoD in alternate history divergences, within your argument for your own plan.
- Location
- America
Thinking between two direction right now.
[] Plan: Lines on a Map
-[] What the hell, invite everyone.
-[] No strings attached to any transfers.
-[] Let's take this point-by-point.
This will give us 14 leverage and a lot of flexibility to decide how we want to partition the Habsburg Empire, without committing to anything prematurely. It will also open up a Balkan conference to give us greater influence there as well.
[] Plan: The Great Powers Divide It
-[] We will invite Britain, France, and Russia.
-[] ...By which we mean they have to be republics.
-[] The Alliance in the west, the Entente in the east.
We get a confirmed sphere of influence, and the Entente is prevented from aggrandizing Serbia and Romania with the territories under their influence by the insistence on republics. This also leaves us with 6 leverage for any other concerns which might come up.
[] Plan: Lines on a Map
-[] What the hell, invite everyone.
-[] No strings attached to any transfers.
-[] Let's take this point-by-point.
This will give us 14 leverage and a lot of flexibility to decide how we want to partition the Habsburg Empire, without committing to anything prematurely. It will also open up a Balkan conference to give us greater influence there as well.
[] Plan: The Great Powers Divide It
-[] We will invite Britain, France, and Russia.
-[] ...By which we mean they have to be republics.
-[] The Alliance in the west, the Entente in the east.
We get a confirmed sphere of influence, and the Entente is prevented from aggrandizing Serbia and Romania with the territories under their influence by the insistence on republics. This also leaves us with 6 leverage for any other concerns which might come up.
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Anchises
Le Charismeur
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That's an interesting approach my only worry is that leaving a significant part of the former Balkans to the Habsburgs potentially might create serious regional instability and irredentism.
- Location
- France
- Pronouns
- She/They
We can still try to resolve claims towards less irredentism when we can. I doubt the Entente will mind if we pick the stabler of the options among their likely allies. Honestly another Balkan war is kinda inevitable as long as Bulgaria exists in its current form, though, so I'm not too fussed.
- Pronouns
- She/They
As someone who voted for long reconstruction and usually disagrees with Fingon about everything, Fingon's actually got a point this time. Why spend 12 years carefully building radical democratic structures in the nations we're creating after the most important election they'll ever vote in?
- Location
- France
- Pronouns
- She/They
The plebiscite is mostly to give at least one vote to the places we won't get to reconstruct because we're letting someone else have them.
I think it's a bad consolation prize and I'd rather have more leverage to liberate more of them though, if I have to choose.
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- Location
- the Republic
- Pronouns
- He/They
As usual, a reminder to keep things civil, constructive, and chill.
- Location
- Phoenix, Arizona
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Leverage doesn't matter in a Balkan conference, though - If "what the hell, invite everyone" wins, leverage ceases to matter, I believe.
- Location
- Your pantry
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Etranger addressed that. Leverage still matters when partitioning the Austrian Empire. Everything outside of that does not fall under 'leverage'.
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- Pronouns
- They/Them
Nope, it turned out that this was a misreading on my part that led to etranger changing the wording.
It's that any negotiation involving uninvolved Balkans states will not cost leverage because it's not about War Points.