If there were super-strong 11-year-olds offscreen somewhere pre-timeskip, we'd be seeing super-strong 14-year-olds in the war arc, which we don't.
Only if Kishimoto decided to focus on them. "Super-strong" by the standards of "beating pre-timeskip Kakashi" means jack shit in the face of Angry Tree God; they wouldn't have necessarily forced themselves into relevance unless they also had the protagonists' ludicrous growth rate. It's the old shonen exponential growth problem. (Poor Krillin :V)
 
If there were super-strong 11-year-olds offscreen somewhere pre-timeskip, we'd be seeing super-strong 14-year-olds in the war arc, which we don't.
We did. They just werent in Naruto's generation, mostly.

Gaara was 1 year younger than Naruto. Itachi made ANBU captain at 13. Sarutobi made Hokage at 16. Nagato killed his first Kage around 15 years of age. Hashirama and Madara were both younger than Part 1 naruto when they started fighting. Kabuto was barely old enough to stop bed wetting when he became a deepcover agent.

They're there. They're just not the focus of attention.
 
"Hmm, no. I like you as you are. Well played, little Uchiha," Orochimaru said, and then he was gone and the skinless corpse of a woman was all that was holding her up. All that, and he was merely a copy with a third of the strength, Hisana thought. She fell to the ground, the corpse smashing into her legs and dripping blood all over them.
Rereading stuff, and...

You know, after reading this, and also reading all the confuseposting afterwards... I honestly think Orochimaru is just straight up saying exactly what he thinks here?

Orochimaru doesn't hand out Cursed Seals for lolz, surprisingly; he handed one to Sasuke because Sasuke was actually pretty stable before the Exam. The Cursed Seal destabilized him, and Itachi, ironically, sealed the deal.

But there's just zero point handing one to Hisana. All it does is hand her raw power, and even then it might not compare to what she can do on her own motivation. Sure, it might destabilize Hisana mentally, but as a personality, as a character, Hisana isn't going to destabilize "usefully" to him like Sasuke did. Hisana has a much more level head and is much better about exploiting the power sources she has available; a Curse Sealed Hisana might, I don't know, lose her ethical restraints and become a second Orochimaru or something, or make her totally suicidal with self-modifications, but it's extremely unlikely to drive her to leave the village and its resources in favor of a missing-nin. Orochimaru can compete with Konoha on the field of lore and jutsu, perhaps, but when it comes to time or breadth or simple money, he can't compete with a major Hidden Village. Sasuke was too emotional to see that, but Hisana wouldn't be, and that would be obvious from the outside.

And that's assuming he actually wants Hisana's body. If he's still focused on Sasuke, then as far as he's concerned, making Hisana less likely to altruistically/dutifully keep pushing and training Sasuke and teaching him everything she can find is just a pure negative; he would, indeed, "like her better as she is."
 
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Only if Kishimoto decided to focus on them. "Super-strong" by the standards of "beating pre-timeskip Kakashi" means jack shit in the face of Angry Tree God; they wouldn't have necessarily forced themselves into relevance unless they also had the protagonists' ludicrous growth rate. It's the old shonen exponential growth problem. (Poor Krillin :V)

A lot of characters with focus in the war arc were weaker than pre-timeskip Kakashi (the various Cloud chunin, for example).
 
Sasuke was too emotional to see that, but Hisana wouldn't be, and that would be obvious from the outside.
I don't think this was a matter of emotional vs. not or Hisana being able to understand the value proposition of staying vs. going.

Consider the context of that scene; Orochimaru has "killed" Karin and removed Naruto from the battle. Hisana and Sasuke have just performed a high powered technique and are vulnerable with Orochimaru right in front of them. Hisana's response? She throws Sasuke out of the way, tackles Orochimaru, and activates a technique that seals the two of them away from the rest of her team. Then fought to the bitter end with no fear of death in her eyes.

Hisana just demonstrated that when the chips are down she will sacrifice herself to save her family without hesitation and has the determination to see it through to the end.

That is something Orochimaru would respect, so many of his issues are driven by the loss of family, which fits with his line of liking Hisana the way she is. It also shows that the Curse Seal's mindscrew is unlikely to be effective because she is already crazy and not in a way that would be helpful to getting her to defect.
 
I don't think this was a matter of emotional vs. not or Hisana being able to understand the value proposition of staying vs. going.

Consider the context of that scene; Orochimaru has "killed" Karin and removed Naruto from the battle. Hisana and Sasuke have just performed a high powered technique and are vulnerable with Orochimaru right in front of them. Hisana's response? She throws Sasuke out of the way, tackles Orochimaru, and activates a technique that seals the two of them away from the rest of her team. Then fought to the bitter end with no fear of death in her eyes.

Hisana just demonstrated that when the chips are down she will sacrifice herself to save her family without hesitation and has the determination to see it through to the end.

That is something Orochimaru would respect, so many of his issues are driven by the loss of family, which fits with his line of liking Hisana the way she is. It also shows that the Curse Seal's mindscrew is unlikely to be effective because she is already crazy and not in a way that would be helpful to getting her to defect.
Enhhh... You say that, but like, being absolutely desperately willing to do anything to save her family is if anything something that would make her more likely to defect if she had any reason to believe it would be a good idea. The thing that makes it pointless isn't that Orochimaru can't mindscrew her into a position where she'd be hypothetically willing to defect, it's that he doesn't have enough to offer -- which gets back to my original point.

Though I suppose you can argue that she's "too crazy to get mindscrewed by the CS," but realistically speaking, that's not usually how (in)sanity works lol.
 
On a more pragmatic level, when you see someone who appears to be a prodigal genius when it comes to applying chakra-modification/storage seals to themselves, it might not be a good idea to slap your phylactery seal onto them.

What if Hisana reverse-engineers it, after all?
 
My problem with him saying that is we never see someone like that in the series. With the exception of the war arc where Naruto and Sasuke got power ups.

Kakashi was definitely talking in generalities. He was on a team with Itachi who was absurdly strong by age 12, so he knows that such people exist. It's natural to use it as advice for the younger generation, since he's conveying that he has seen kids who were stronger than his current strength when they were Naruto's age, and that there are probably other kids like that in the wide world that he doesn't know about.
 
I think he was mostly just trying to hammer in a "don't underestimate people based on their age, idiots" lesson, and whether he was being exactly accurate wasn't really the point.
 
I don't think this was a matter of emotional vs. not or Hisana being able to understand the value proposition of staying vs. going.

Consider the context of that scene; Orochimaru has "killed" Karin and removed Naruto from the battle. Hisana and Sasuke have just performed a high powered technique and are vulnerable with Orochimaru right in front of them. Hisana's response? She throws Sasuke out of the way, tackles Orochimaru, and activates a technique that seals the two of them away from the rest of her team. Then fought to the bitter end with no fear of death in her eyes.

Hisana just demonstrated that when the chips are down she will sacrifice herself to save her family without hesitation and has the determination to see it through to the end.

That is something Orochimaru would respect, so many of his issues are driven by the loss of family, which fits with his line of liking Hisana the way she is. It also shows that the Curse Seal's mindscrew is unlikely to be effective because she is already crazy and not in a way that would be helpful to getting her to defect.

Orochimaru being impressed/scared by Hisana's crazy is definitely a take that i didn't see coming, but it fits.

I think he was mostly just trying to hammer in a "don't underestimate people based on their age, idiots" lesson, and whether he was being exactly accurate wasn't really the point.

I agree.
 
I mean, we all know Orochimaru likes Chaos. Tbh, I think he just thought she was interesting enough and thought he'd let it play out.

He's not Danzo, he doesn't have his ego tied up in some weird fascist idea of control, he's very much a scientist and he likes new and interesting variables.

Not forgetting he basically started Sound for a joke, to mock Konoha, and he doesn't give the slightest shit if it collapses.
 
On a more pragmatic level, when you see someone who appears to be a prodigal genius when it comes to applying chakra-modification/storage seals to themselves, it might not be a good idea to slap your phylactery seal onto them.

What if Hisana reverse-engineers it, after all?
^^^
He was Tsunade's teammate. He sure as hell recognizes the inspiration for the Final Hurricane seal, and his intel network is good enough to tell him that Tsunade had not been in the village at that point, nor had she hsd any contact with the Uchiha. Which would mean Hisana came up with this from second or thirdhand reports. While a genin.

Putting a Curse Seal on someone of those demonstrated capabilities would not seem like the brightest of ideas.
 
^^^
He was Tsunade's teammate. He sure as hell recognizes the inspiration for the Final Hurricane seal, and his intel network is good enough to tell him that Tsunade had not been in the village at that point, nor had she hsd any contact with the Uchiha. Which would mean Hisana came up with this from second or thirdhand reports. While a genin.

Putting a Curse Seal on someone of those demonstrated capabilities would not seem like the brightest of ideas.
Tsunade's seal came as a surprise to rochi when she used it against him.

This hasn't happened yet iirc.

He might even think Hisana has inspired Tsunade unless he acquired canon knowledge.
 
So to recap on the factions:
Camo-Cloaks: faction from a chakra-tech world, in league with white zetsu, access to wood release, have "intelligence on this plane" (canon?) but didn't know about Hisana, tried to kidnap Naruto twice, seal language is English
Also, they refer to Naruto as "the renegade's vessel".

... I'm a little worried that Kurama, himself, might be a transmigrant.

...That would really suck, tbh. Imagine waking up in a fantasy world... in which you're locked up in the protagonist's mind with zero ability to influence events or talk to anyone. For years.

Though I think Naruto had to explicitly ask Kurama for power every time he got it, so presumably he'd've said something then if he was...
 
[x] Neji, to precisely monitor the trainees. Whilst his eyes' range isn't as long as Karin's sensory technique, they provide more information.
 
[x] Naruto, to provide manpower. His shadow clones will allow Hisana to swamp the trainees much more effectively.

I feel like Naruto would be fun to have here.
 
Also, they refer to Naruto as "the renegade's vessel".

... I'm a little worried that Kurama, himself, might be a transmigrant.

...That would really suck, tbh. Imagine waking up in a fantasy world... in which you're locked up in the protagonist's mind with zero ability to influence events or talk to anyone. For years.

Though I think Naruto had to explicitly ask Kurama for power every time he got it, so presumably he'd've said something then if he was...

I assumed "the renegade" was Asura in this context, not Kurama. It is a somewhat odd choice of words, though.
 
Man, if Asura and Indra themselves were transmigrants/inserts, that would certainly explain why the setting looks so totally different on the broad scale lol.

Asura and Indra are transmigrants in canon (just not from Earth). Well, not in quite the same sense; it's not like Naruto has Asura's memories in addition to his own.
 
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Huh, from my reading of that scene, it was more that they were talking about Naruto being a vessel of the Renegade. Or at least... a portion of her...
Who was Kurama once a part of before they got split up a bunch of times again?
Yeah, so... I think the Camo Cloaks are Otsutsuki(sp?) forces actually investigating why the tree isn't growing right.

[x] Neji, to precisely monitor the trainees. Whilst his eyes' range isn't as long as Karin's sensory technique, they provide more information.

Naruto is a close second. As far as OpFor goes, Naruto is top. But Neji's ability to provide information is the important thing here. This is a diagnostics as much as it's a stress test. And Neji will be able to point out flaws much easier than Naruto would be able to force said flaws I think.
 
Just finished a reread.


"I'll take the aberration and deal with it once and for all, you take the brat and get this back on track." The trenchcoat ninja said. He wore no headband, and beneath the coat she could see heavy metal armour.
In retrospect, this bit seems off now. We now know that Hisana isn't nearly the only transmigrant who's not with the Trenchcoats - they approached Karin, so they obviously knew about her - so this guy saying 'the aberration' and 'once and for all', as if killing Hisana would put everything back on track, seems odd.


Hisana had tried to figure out what on earth the whole graduation day battle had been about, but she was rebuffed by official sources and told to wait by the Hokage, and resolved to look into it further when she could.
@Tekomandor: Did we ever follow up on this? We now have the rank to be read in on the subject, and given these guys keep showing up on our missions we obviously have need-to-know. Konoha Intelligence might be missing some critical facts that would let them truly understand these outsiders, i.e. the existence of canon and transmigration, but they're generally competent and they've had time to work at it. Surely they've come up with some information?


Kakashi took a great toll on the Zetsu, his speed blinding even compared to Hisana's; his arsenal of jutsu vastly more varied. The last Zetsu fell to a blow from Hisana's blade, and the battered team regrouped some distance away from the battlefield. Hisana had sealed away the cash and gold in the Caravans, as well as a few Zetsu corpses, and they were ready to leave.

"Listen up, kids. We're heading for Konoha at full speed - no breaks, no rest until we get there. If I tell you to keep moving, even if I stay behind you keep on going," Kakashi ordered, his voice still uncharacteristically firm and authoritative.
@Tekomandor: Whatever happened to the bandits from the initial attack? The canon omake says that they were all captured and tied up before the Zetsu revieled themselves. Did they die in the fighting? Did we leave them behind, tied to trees, to die?


"Were you arrogant enough to think you could control me through my own creation? What, I wonder, possessed you to think that I would not build safeguards for this, not prepare? Are all other people merely puppets to you, to be manipulated as you wish? Surely, my student could not have failed so direly in your education as that - surely, you must have been defective before he taught you," Tobirama said, a scowl evident in his face. Orochimaru went to remove the kunai, only for Tobirama to make a seal with his left hand.
So, this didn't happen in canon. And I can't see how anything Hisana changed could have caused it, nor any differences in the lead-up to Orochi using Impure World Resurrection which might explain it. Which leaves two obvious possibilities:
  • The jutsu was sabotaged in some subtle way - but that doesn't make sense; the Trenchcoats are trying to keep canon on-track.
  • Tobirama added these safeguards to the jutsu while he was still alive in this world, where he did not do so in canon. Which implies canon has been butterflied for a long time.
... now that I think about it, there's another deviation in this scene: Orochi doesn't even try to summon the Fourth Hokage


"Just watch, she'll devolve into a boy-mad bad girl right before our eyes," Karin said. Hisana tried to control her emotions. To not let anyone see her reaction. Some things were better-kept secret, she thought. Sasuke and Naruto devolved into barely concealed laughter.
Huh. I missed this the first time around, but it looks like Hisana's gay? I had vaguely wondered if she might be - there was a mention in the first chapter about, in her first life, having a secret crush on her gender-unspecified best friend.

I wonder if that's a pattern? Of the two transmigrants we actually know anything about the first life of, one's trans, the other's gay.
 
In retrospect, this bit seems off now. We now know that Hisana isn't nearly the only transmigrant who's not with the Trenchcoats - they approached Karin, so they obviously knew about her - so this guy saying 'the aberration' and 'once and for all', as if killing Hisana would put everything back on track, seems odd.

Hisana is pretty uniquely placed, being attached at the hip to the two main characters of the series. As for 'once and for all', it's entirely possible that there have been multiple assassination attempts that Konoha took care of without even getting close enough for us to notice- they probably just got lumped in with everyone else trying to kill the last remnants of the Uchiha to prevent Konoha from retaining that bloodline.

Huh. I missed this the first time around, but it looks like Hisana's gay? I had vaguely wondered if she might be - there was a mention in the first chapter about, in her first life, having a secret crush on her gender-unspecified best friend.

Yeah that was confirmed-

Hisana is definitely, 100% a lesbian and has been since the first post.

... Also she definitely had a crush on Koyuki. :V

Yukie Fujikaze, as she was known in her career as an actress, was already aboard the boat that would be taking them to the Land of Snow. She sat on the deck, absently reading a novel, and Hisana thought she was only a little less perfect off the screen than she was on it.

"I will have no need of swords, my friend. And you lost such a fine blade fighting for me... take it, and I shall still owe you a debt," Koyuki said, placing her hands gently onto Hisana's. Hisana felt her face heat up a little a that - Koyuki was even prettier as a queen than she had been as a princess.
 
I started reading this quest today, no idea why I didn't follow this when it started, great stuff! there are so many comments I want to comment on but quoting someone in the middle of an argument from 2017 seems pretty stupid
 
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