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Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization

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veekie said:
[] [Rival2] Ochruhr (-1 Trust)
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Veekie, why.

Let the Ochruhr be a (relatively) neutral power for the time being. Turn them into a secondary influence battleground between us and the Sketch the way the Kielmyr will be.

Don't aggro them when they will - almost certainly - host a Congress of !Vienna to make sure there's at least a decade or two of peace in Syffryn.

The Sketch rivalry is unavoidable, but by god we don't need more.
 
Cornuthaum said:
Veekie, why.

Let the Ochruhr be a (relatively) neutral power for the time being. Turn them into a secondary influence battleground between us and the Sketch the way the Kielmyr will be.

Don't aggro them when they will - almost certainly - host a Congress of !Vienna to make sure there's at least a decade or two of peace in Syffryn.

The Sketch rivalry is unavoidable, but by god we don't need more.
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Remember the last time we had less than the recommended number of rivals. We started being forced to get one.

Way I see it, we can't actually REACH the Hespranxer if we wind up in another Rival fight.
But the Ochruhr are actually in punching range.

I'm open to being persuaded on Hespranxer vs Ochruhr, but barring AN clarification that we can stay at 2 Rivals(in which case fuck the Sketch and Nohon), I'd be taking the 3 Rival route.

@Academia Nut

Another Rival question.
Doesn't Thalassocracy require us to Rival only Naval powers? How does Ochruhr qualify?
 
Xon said:
Now if only we had something to spend that Prestige on.
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I really think we should avoid losing supreme power status. Say we lose it, how soon will we regain it by doing nothing?

Even suffering a hit by losing prestige after we lose supreme power status is less than ideal, cause we would want to trash our prestige. We'll just become supreme power again shortly. Our playstyle won't allow for anything less.

Diplomatic Overreach should see more frequent use in the future? Or maybe establish a base in Sketch for our spies?
 
Marlin said:
I really think we should avoid losing supreme power status. Say we lose it, how soon will we regain it by doing nothing?
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We outclass anyone else by 30 prestige, and we will be getting more at an accelerated rate due to archaeology and our continued educating and military advising. We can spend some goddamn prestige. Hell, the archaeology mission to our own sites essentially gives us a double bump of the stuff.
 
Garlak said:
Huh, question... Do you guys think we could tempt the Hespranxer away from the Sketch with the Suez Canal?
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The Khemetri and the Hes are periodic combatants. There's bad blood there.
Expecting them to peacefully partner in a megaproject is an unlikely prospect on either side.
Besides, give the Hes a monetary stake in the Suez, and they'll cook up a casus belli to go at the Khemetri again sooner or later.

Garlak said:
Maybe allow the Hespranxer to use the canal but not the Sketch.
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Excluding Sketch merchant traffic and warships(in peacetime) simply incentivizes them to smash it up instead of begrudgingly using it.
And remember, while their shipping uses it, they pay tolls, which would allow the owners of the canal to industrialize.

More likely they're going to expand their toehold in the West Khem Kingdoms.
Garlak said:
Hell, if we could convince the Hespranxer to war against the Sketch for their prestige rather than on us or on Syffryn... And we give them access to the Suez Canal but not the Sketch?
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Unlikely, but at least theoretically possible.
If they grab off the Halvyni holdings, they might make eyes at Australia and the rest of South East Asia.
Might.
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Might want to consider DO'ing the New Hes and the other New World powers.
If the Sketch and Hes are buddying up, the New World powers are going to be looking at a realignment.
Even the UPM.

And contingencies for instigating issues in Sketch-controlled Kus might be necessary to discourage them from poking us too much in the East.
When last did anyone take a serious look at the Redwood Dominion? Diplomatically?
Are they still mad dogs?
 
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uju32 said:
Might want to consider DO'ing the New Hes and the other New World powers.
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We've already buddied up with the CCP. We can't really do much with New Hes and the UPM or we risk alienating the CCP.

In any case, we have a decent bloc in the New World with the Mapanca and the CCP.
 
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uju32 said:
Might want to consider DO'ing the New Hes and the other New World powers.
If the Sketch and Hes are buddying up, the New World powers are going to be looking at a realignment.
Even the UPM.
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Hmm, that is an idea. The New Hespranaxer has a port in the Hung coast. We could DO them to modify the agreement to be less humiliating to the Hung in exchange for our support against the Hespranaxer.

The Sketch coalition hates each other. We could use intrigue to increase tensions between them.
 
veekie said:
Remember the last time we had less than the recommended number of rivals. We started being forced to get one.
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Yes, but in that case we might as well go for the bloody Hespranxer.... whose territories in the Caribbean islands and Indonesia we actually have an Ambition to support getting into scraps for (the Naval one, y'know? Bases everywhere.)

Use the Ochruhr as the turning table of post-1842 Syffrynite politics and don't make a triple GP bloc opposed to us straight away.


if we need a third rival we can figure that out at that point.
 
We need a bigger navy. Having the best, largest army in the world won't be enough if a world war starts. Also, it might be a good idea to do a DO to Behryvar. We should develop them as our ally, we really need a powerful ally that's close that's close enough to help against the Sketch and Hespranxer.
 
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pbluekan said:
We've already buddied up with the CCP. We can't really do much with New Hes and the UPM or we risk alienating the CCP. In any case, we have a decent bloc in the New World with the Mapanca and the CCP.
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Work multiple angles.

If you can get the NH to lay off the CCP, it relieves a certain amount of pressure.
If the Sketch are looking to pressure us elsewhere, we need to acquire leverage against their colonial holdings to threaten their SoL and dissuade them.
The only one we or an ally can physically reach atm is not!India. It would be nice to have options.

And not!Canada is a potential threat to the UPM and CCP both.

Of course, neither the Sketch nor the Nohon are high-Trust nations, so it might be possible to peel off their diplomatic targets.
But that depends on presenting proposals in said target's interests.

EDIT
Assuming the Khemetri did capture Gibraltar, we probably want to ship them some of the biggest fuckoff artillery weapons we can build, beg, borrow or steal to install on the Rock. If they can bottle Sketch(or Hespranxer) naval forces away from the entering the Saffron Sea, it makes things less hairy.
 
loserthree said:
I think that, like our Earth, there's already a river that takes care of Baltic-Sea-analog-to-Black-Sea-analog, a sort of Volga-River-analog.

That isn't to say that the rail shouldn't be built or won't make a big difference. But that line could probably wait until last since the steel and shit from the Triple-Crown can just keep coming on barges, while goods that need to get Way East -- or even to the Black Sheep or the Khem -- have to jump through a whole lot more hoops.

Is this semi-accurate, @Academia Nut?
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The big thing is that the way it runs across land will improve the ability of one the world's breadbaskets to get goods from farm to market. The rivers already help a great deal, but having rails improves overall land coverage.

The Conservatives will want this trunk line before the Trans-Kyberi one.

veekie said:
I want to clarify a few points on Rivals:
-What effect would having only 2 Rivals instead of the recommended 3 have?

From precedent, I think our Royalists will start applying pressure to declare another Rival, right?

-What are the main effects of Rivals other than getting extra loot if we defeat them and making it easier to declare war on them?
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Yes, having only two will eventually cause the Royalists to complain for another.

veekie said:
Another Rival question.
Doesn't Thalassocracy require us to Rival only Naval powers? How does Ochruhr qualify?
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Hmmm... good point. Good thing I haven't unlocked it yet.
 
As Supreme Power you require a minimum of two rivals, preferably three, declare a new rival?
[] [Rival2] Hespranxer (-1 Trust)
[] [Rival2] Ochruhr (-1 Trust)
[] [Rival2] None (can only be taken if you declared against the Sketch)

This is complicated. On one hand, the Ochruhr are our enemies. On the other, we can't push them into the Sketchpranxer alliance if it can be avoided at all. The Hespranxer have helped us out in the past, so maybe rivalling them isn't the best idea. Then again, Rivalling in general isn't particularly ideal anyway. None is of course a tempting option, but I also think we'll need to take a stand against one of these two eventually.

Hespranxer is, I think, the best option here. First, they're asshats for just eating the Halyvni because they're butthurt about losing. Second, they're going to try and take a swing at the Khemetri, so in all likelihood rivalling the Hespranxer is going to happen at some point anyway. Third, there's not any particularly good reason to rival the Ochruhr. We're going to back up Behryvar taking over the Tortun no matter what the Ochruhr say or do, and the Ochruhr are liable to see their attention drift from hard targets in the north to soft targets in the south anyway.

New Research Project Needed
[][Research] Modern Idealism (16/40-50?) [Science][Open]
[][Research] Electromagnetic Theory (16/???) [Science][Physics][Open]
[][Research] Industrial Machine Tools (25/50-70?)[Industrial][Open]

Idealism just isn't as good as the other two. Machine Tools is a huge benefit for anything industrial, which is half our actions these days. EM Theory is great if we want to pursue metalight theory further. It's a tough choice, and I'm amenable to EM Theory, both because it's just so useful to have and because metalight in general is interesting. But honestly, I think we needed to have Machine Tools a while ago, and given how much industrializing we're going to be doing, I think it just barely edges out EM Theory.

[] [Rival1] 0 PW - Yes (-1 Trust)
[] [Rival2] Hespranxer (-1 Trust)
[] [Peace] 1 PW - At least try to respect national self determination (Feed the Kielmyr bits of Northern Tortun, you take some of the Wyrmyn parts of eastern Tortun, Behryvar gets the rest, Hespranxer devours Halvyni and colonies, +1 Trust)
[] [Archaeology] 1 PW - Sounds good (Uses an Academy slot, other costs assumed by the Khemetri)
[] [Research] Industrial Machine Tools (25/50-70?)[Industrial][Open]
 
Right then, adjusted a few things and knocked Ochruhr off because they do not have enough of a navy. If they declare a Rivalry against you then they are enough of a threat as a GP that can attack your land that you can return the favour.
 
Xon said:
If we don't pick up a rival and pick ' At least try to respect national self determination' we get +1 Trust
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We have to take at least one Rival, and Rivaling anyone reduces our Trust.

Hell, even counter-Rivaling someone who Rivaled us first costs trust. Even when the other side is a globally known den of scoundrels, which is... Uh, I would think the comparative Trust scores should probably mean something there? A reactive Rivalry when the 'Reactor' is a High Trust nation vs a Low Trust nation seems like it probably shouldn't trigger a Trust drop?
 
Academia Nut said:
Right then, adjusted a few things and knocked Ochruhr off because they do not have enough of a navy. If they declare a Rivalry against you then they are enough of a threat as a GP that can attack your land that you can return the favour.
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Question:
uju32 said:
@Academia Nut
QUESTION
-Will the DC automatically perform industrial espionage/discreet looting of all the industrial heartland they are attacking into, or does it require a dedicated action?
-And if they do, will it affect Trust?
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Academia Nut said:
It will come up for 1843, but safe to say that the SKF got tackled by everyone on the continent and stomped on hard.
Like, part of their maneuvering had the Ochruhr secure the Not!Pope's support against the "heathens" to shore up their own position with their recently conquered Etal territories. Literally everyone is jumping on them, with you and the Hesp doing the majority of the stomping.
So how everything gets carved up is going to be a big question.
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Doesn't seem to have come up so far though; we're mostly talking territorial reapportionment and the industrial/economic grunt thereof.
Or is it that the Syffrynites are not technologically ahead in any fields at the moment?
 
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Cornuthaum said:
Yes, but in that case we might as well go for the bloody Hespranxer.... whose territories in the Caribbean islands and Indonesia we actually have an Ambition to support getting into scraps for (the Naval one, y'know? Bases everywhere.)

Use the Ochruhr as the turning table of post-1842 Syffrynite politics and don't make a triple GP bloc opposed to us straight away.


if we need a third rival we can figure that out at that point.
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Well
Academia Nut said:
Yes, having only two will eventually cause the Royalists to complain for
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Academia Nut said:
Hmmm... good point. Good thing I haven't unlocked it yet.
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Academia Nut said:
Right then, adjusted a few things and knocked Ochruhr off because they do not have enough of a navy. If they declare a Rivalry against you then they are enough of a threat as a GP that can attack your land that you can return the favour.
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Hespranxer rival it is.
If the Royalists will bitch about it we might as well get it done for 0 PW
 
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    • uju32 said:
    Question:
    Doesn't seem to have come up so far though; we're mostly talking territorial reapportionment and the industrial/economic grunt thereof.
    Or is it that the Syffrynites are not technologically ahead in any fields at the moment?
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    It will come up with the final distribution of territory, but you succeeded so hard on the army check and the trade check that you basically haven't been able to loot because by the time you finish driving out the fanatics the locals have already started getting things running again.

    And with that I do believe I shall unlock for voting.
     
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