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Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization

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Sivantic said:
Honestly, that is making me agree with ignoring the minor parties. They are literally pointless. Anything they want to do, the Upper House can is already doing.
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I'll point out that lower house parties, in the long run, are something we absolutely want to throw PW at.

It's just that this turn probably isn't the turn we want to lose 2 PW to let your party act.

Like, one of the keystones of our foreign policy just exploded, and we now have to go fight a war in a place that, in the OTL, was legendary for destroying empires.

So if you want PW as a lesser party, you have to convince the player base that the loss of 2 PW is somehow acceptable this turn. You could do that by putting out a plan (You can even shamelessly steal from Xeph or whoever else you want. It's what I'd do) that shows how losing that 2 PW is totally viable even in our current circumstances. As an example, you could toss out the 2 PW used to do an extra DO on the BS, or you could change around the espionage stuff. If you want to present an alternative, you have to explain what you'd do, and why you think it's important enough to be losing the PW.

It's just that in this case, the crisis mean that would be at best difficult.

Still, it sounds like AN is planning to buff minor parties anyways, so it's not really a big deal at this point.
 
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[X] [Parl] Parliamentary Budget 1846 (But I like farmers)
-[X] [Parl] Royalists +4PW
-[X] [Parl] Conservatives +4PW
-[X] [Parl] Liberals +3PW
-[X] [Parl] Farmers +1PW

[X][Research1] Organic Chemistry (10/40-50?) AND Inorganic Chemistry (17/40-50?) [Science][Chemistry][Open]
-[X][Research1] Organic First
[X] [Kiel] Yes, please (-1 SoL while Five Crowns active (Kale-Yllthon line under construction or have not natively developed Steel Railroad), founds Rail Company)
[X][Research2] Breechloading Cannon (0/???) [Military][Weaponry][Open]
[X] [BS] Containment (Gives time for attempts at diplomacy and mobilization, increases risk to lowlands, gives time for the rebels to organize)
 
[X] [Parl] Parliamentary Budget 1846 (Infrastructure and Security Bill)
[X] [BS] Containment (Gives time for attempts at diplomacy and mobilization, increases risk to lowlands, gives time for the rebels to organize)
[X][Research1] Organic Chemistry (10/40-50?) AND Inorganic Chemistry (17/40-50?) [Science][Chemistry][Open]
-[X][Research1] Organic First
[X][Research2] Breechloading Cannon (0/???) [Military][Weaponry][Open]
[X] [Kiel] Take them up on that marriage thing too! (As Yes, Please, and marriage decision is made in favour of the Kielmyr immediately rather than waiting another turn, ???)
 
Garlak said:
Also: we don't need to accept immediately. We're going to get a "pick a marriage option?" this upcoming turn, which will show us other candidates, where you can still pick the Kielmyr if you want to. We're not insulting the Kielmyr by not immediately agreeing the very first time they even floated the idea past us. (Though I am worrying that by not even looking at the others, we tell them we don't care/aren't interested at all.)
Just... guys. Can we please see what all the other nations are doing first before we agree immediately?
I want to at least find out what's going on in this area.
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Going to point out that this was pretty much how Nokly got married. Didn't cause any real diplomatic ruckus then either.

Garlak said:
Or at least for Yenyna to meet the various princes and see if she clicks with any of them. Or if any of them look like budding Heroes in the future.
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Just going to point out that, assuming the NPCs are competent, no one is trading us a budding Hero that they could use at home.
So no, that's almost certainly not on the table barring some unforeseen critical roll.

Note that I'm not set on it; I personally would have leaned towards the Khem.
But I can see the argument for taking the deal now; it's not a bad one.
 
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Brewing Parliamentary Trouble
  • Informational
    • From a gamist perspective of player fun and engagement the system clearly needs work.

    From a simulationist perspective, I have produced a system that favours both entrenched technocrats and populist revolts in the voter base.

    :thonk:

    Also, to make it explicit, the Upper House was contemplating a series of bills to restrict franchise for the Lower House before the current crisis sidelined the issue.

    Royalists favour franchise based upon Property.
    Conservatives favour franchise based upon Property, Education, or Service.
    Liberals favour franchise based upon Property or Education.
    Urban Workers favour franchise based upon Universal or Service.
    Farmers favour franchise based upon Service or Property.

    When it actually comes up the mechanics will be made more clear, but all parties must cast a vote and may devote additional PW towards supporting one of these resolutions. Failure to adequately support a Party favoured position may result in a leadership recall.
     
  • Informational
    • Academia Nut said:
    From a gamist perspective of player fun and engagement the system clearly needs work.

    From a simulationist perspective, I have produced a system that favours both entrenched technocrats and populist revolts in the voter base.

    :thonk:

    Also, to make it explicit, the Upper House was contemplating a series of bills to restrict franchise for the Lower House before the current crisis sidelined the issue.

    Royalists favour franchise based upon Property.
    Conservatives favour franchise based upon Property, Education, or Service.
    Liberals favour franchise based upon Property or Education.
    Urban Workers favour franchise based upon Universal or Service.
    Farmers favour franchise based upon Service or Property.

    When it actually comes up the mechanics will be made more clear, but all parties must cast a vote and may devote additional PW towards supporting one of these resolutions. Failure to adequately support a Party favoured position may result in a leadership recall.
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    When would this occur?
     
    Academia Nut said:
    From a gamist perspective of player fun and engagement the system clearly needs work.

    From a simulationist perspective, I have produced a system that favours both entrenched technocrats and populist revolts in the voter base.

    :thonk:

    Also, to make it explicit, the Upper House was contemplating a series of bills to restrict franchise for the Lower House before the current crisis sidelined the issue.

    Royalists favour franchise based upon Property.
    Conservatives favour franchise based upon Property, Education, or Service.
    Liberals favour franchise based upon Property or Education.
    Urban Workers favour franchise based upon Universal or Service.
    Farmers favour franchise based upon Service or Property.

    When it actually comes up the mechanics will be made more clear, but all parties must cast a vote and may devote additional PW towards supporting one of these resolutions. Failure to adequately support a Party favoured position may result in a leadership recall.
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    Just to make sure, this isn't taking effect this turn, correct? This is what we'll be voting on when we aren't in crisis?
     
    Well, the crown should back service to the hilt. No inheriting your political power as much as posible.

    It is already our tradition, citizenship through service.
     
    Academia Nut said:
    Also, to make it explicit, the Upper House was contemplating a series of bills to restrict franchise for the Lower House before the current crisis sidelined the issue.
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    This was one of the reasons I pushed for equality of the Houses during ConCon:V
    Remember, IRL the British House of Lords refused to pass a popular budget that disadvantaged wealthy landowners and the aristocracy.
    This despite the Liberal Party winning two general elections on that platform.

    And then when the then Liberal PM Asquith introduced a bill to restrict the powers of the House of Lords from doing that again, they vetoed that bill too.
    It took an alliance of the PM and King, and a threat to pack the House of Lords with several hundred new Liberal lords to get them to wrest the power of the purse from them.
    The supremacy of the British House of Commons was established in the early 20th century. In 1909, the Commons passed the so-called "People's Budget", which made numerous changes to the taxation system which were detrimental to wealthy landowners. The House of Lords, which consisted mostly of powerful landowners, rejected the Budget. On the basis of the Budget's popularity and the Lords' consequent unpopularity, the Liberal Party narrowly won two general elections in 1910.

    Using the result as a mandate, the Liberal Prime Minister, Herbert Henry Asquith, introduced the Parliament Bill, which sought to restrict the powers of the House of Lords. (He did not reintroduce the land tax provision of the People's Budget.) When the Lords refused to pass the bill, Asquith countered with a promise extracted from the King in secret before the second general election of 1910 and requested the creation of several hundred Liberal peers, so as to erase the Conservative majority in the House of Lords. In the face of such a threat, the House of Lords narrowly passed the bill.
    The Parliament Act 1911, as it became, prevented the Lords from blocking a money bill (a bill dealing with taxation), and allowed them to delay any other bill for a maximum of three sessions (reduced to two sessions in 1949), after which it could become law over their objections. However, regardless of the Parliament Acts of 1911 and 1949, the House of Lords has always retained the unrestricted power to veto any bill outright which attempts to extend the life of a parliament.[13]​

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_the_United_Kingdom[/sup]
    ​
     
    huhYeahGoodPoint said:
    Wait, what? The Royalists, made up of military men, some of which have earned their citizenship based on service, want only Property to be the basis of voting?
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    They got theirs, fuck anyone else, ya know? At least I think that's their perspective. Asshats.

    Service and Education is most appealing to me atm.

    edit: ninja explanation!
     
    Garlak said:
    So you made a joke vote and, what, then spent the rest of your time in bad-faith arguing at the people who put in the work? And then just now made fun of them for working so hard when you made a plan in 10 minutes. And you also said "See, this joke vote I made proves that anybody can make votes and people won't know what's up! "Except that part of the issue -- which my post brought up, and which others probably noticed -- was that none of your posts ever gave a plan-of-PW-spending plan. Which means that people DID point out issues with your own posts; so they were aware that there was something wrong with it; you just ignored and mocked them when they pointed out the problems!

    I... I can't deal with this. I just can't.
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    Wow

    There was a whole mess of misunderstanding going on here.

    First, I made a joke vote, not expecting it to take off. I have not once encouraged people to vote for that plan since I made it.

    Second, this entire time I have been arguing two things. That this quest should be played here, and I want in on this plan. I have never once said that it was a bad plan. But the problem is that I cannot act without enacting a malus and that people want to avoid the malus at all costs, despite it reducing the malus for next time.

    Third, I explicitly tagged Xepheria there because of everyone here, they would understand the sheer simplicity of the plan(I used like, 4 stats max. And the least complicated ones at that) and the fact that they know I have and would blame Pollution for everything a la Random Member/revolution. It was not meant to make fun of them, but of myself.

    huhYeahGoodPoint said:
    Wait, what? The Royalists, made up of military men, some of which have earned their citizenship based on service, want only Property to be the basis of voting?
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    That is only the new nobility. The old aristocracy is the Royalist Party.
     
    Considering this news perhaps we should give less PW to the Royalists and more to Conservatives or Urban Workers (if the latter is an option).
     
    Sivantic said:
    But the problem is that I cannot act without enacting a malus and that people want to avoid the malus at all costs, despite it reducing the malus for next time.
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    I mean, that's an inherent point of the system itself? Not something that can be changed, and it's meant to discourage us for voting for lower house parties.

    You need to work around it, but this turn probably isn't the one that you'd be able to succeed. Had this been a normal turn, with no crisis forcing us to throw everything at the BS or anti-Sketch stuff, then AN would have enacted the franchise proposals, which, well...
    Academia Nut said:
    Urban Workers favour franchise based upon Universal or Service.
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    I suspect you wouldn't be complaining about not having PW at that point :V

    Timewinders said:
    Considering this news perhaps we should give less PW to the Royalists and more to Conservatives or Urban Workers (if the latter is an option).
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    UW would cost 2 PW, so conservatives would be a better choice.
     
    Fouredged Sword said:
    Well, the crown should back service to the hilt. No inheriting your political power as much as posible. It is already our tradition, citizenship through service.
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    Which neatly excludes the fifty percent of the population that is female.
    Or those too ill or weak to serve in the military. Or crippled.
    This is still the era of polio and tuberculosis. Or do you argue that FDR should not vote or run for office?

    Service is something you want to establish as a baseline for all our citizenry of a certain age, not something you do to get privileges.
    ScreenWatcher said:
    Education and Service seem good to me.
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    A method that restricts the franchise from the bulk of the male population, all of which have military training, is asking for trouble.
     
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    Academia Nut said:
    From a gamist perspective of player fun and engagement the system clearly needs work.

    From a simulationist perspective, I have produced a system that favours both entrenched technocrats and populist revolts in the voter base.

    :thonk:

    Also, to make it explicit, the Upper House was contemplating a series of bills to restrict franchise for the Lower House before the current crisis sidelined the issue.

    Royalists favour franchise based upon Property.
    Conservatives favour franchise based upon Property, Education, or Service.
    Liberals favour franchise based upon Property or Education.
    Urban Workers favour franchise based upon Universal or Service.
    Farmers favour franchise based upon Service or Property.

    When it actually comes up the mechanics will be made more clear, but all parties must cast a vote and may devote additional PW towards supporting one of these resolutions. Failure to adequately support a Party favoured position may result in a leadership recall.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    I know you said that details are coming later, but can we can we combine those? Franchise based on both Property and Service, for example?
     
    I am Southern. We know the dangers of Poll tests to exclude people you don't like.

    Education cuts out people who don't have rich parents. Urban and farm parties both die.

    Service is male exclusive, but it is the most wide option of the set. Universal isn't a choice here.

    Choose service and expand what service means until it IS universal.
     
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