NorseQuest (A Norse Xianxia)

Alectai · Mar 11, 2023

Anyway though, my take on the Christian Knight Style seems to be... That it's all about stability and staying power. You set up your Focus, and that shields you from harm while giving you a drip of your Resource, probably also giving a general buff across the board as long as you're Sticking to the Plan. Kind of like going into a battle trance where thought and action become one and the same. It's about consistency and stability over all other details, and that's a winning strategy when you combine it with superlative training and having a team of similarly trained experts at your side.

Where it falters is as we just saw--if you get overwhelmed or forced to have to pivot, your Focus breaks, and for that period of time, presumably you lose your resource drip--meaning that anything you spend is gone for the fight--and I suspect that the 'Maximum Resources' on a Knight is comparably low compared to a similarly experienced Norse Cultivator, so if your Focus breaks, you're spending out of that relatively small pool until you can re-establish Focus.

Which isn't sustainable obviously. You're going against your style that way.

Of course, if they're wearing their Armor--I suspect that exists to raise their 'Resting' state. Normally they'd lose out on stats to a comparably skilled Norse Warrior, and could get clubbed down like we just did here with a sufficiently determined burst of Orthstirr. The Armor probably compensates for that by giving them bonus numbers on top of just giving them a shitton of health, so that their Focus being smashed down isn't necessarily a death sentence. It compensates for their weaknesses with external assistance, creating something strong and stable.

Notably, I think what the bracers are doing is preventing him from accessing his Hugareida equivilant. Virtues I guess maybe?

Sirrocco · Mar 11, 2023

[X] Plan Seizing The Opening

Toboe · Mar 11, 2023

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Eh. I'm skeptical that losing to someone who's been in combat training more than twice as long as us is somehow inherently shameful...but more importantly I'm not convinced doing this actually increases our odds of winning in any significant way at this point. His focus is broken, we can just hit him a bunch and win, no insults needed.

Sure on trying the just beating him. If we don't win this turn we can try next.
But on the shame part:
He is a shackled slave.
To repeat with more detail: He is wearing magic shackles limiting his powers. That should block all cultivator power.
Yes, being afraid to challenge him would be shameful.
But that doesn't mean that losing wouldn't be also shameful.
In a real friendly spar: Sure, win/loose wouldn't matter.
But this isn't a friendly spar, this is a fight because he insulted us. I'll give you that the fight is not "official holmgang" bad, but not a friendly spar either.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Why? Breaking his spirit seems likely to make enemy of both him and Jerasmus. We don't need additional enemies.

Exmorri said:
I think we avoided nid by starting a fight over it, losing now would merely be odrengskap.

Possible.
Still not worth risking. (If it counters one drengskap that would mean getting one less Orthstirr everytime we get Orthstirr (excluding the 2 we get every year for saving halfdan))

Constenanto · Mar 11, 2023

Toboe said:
To repeat with more detail: He is wearing magic shackles limiting his powers. That should block all cultivator power.

It doesn't block all of his power, though? It's explicitly said that while he can't access all of his power, he can still use the basics. Not to mention that Gabriel is actually more skilled than us by quite a fair bit. I'd say that we still have the advantage, but it's not as big as you're making it out to be.

That said, I do think that losing to a shackled Squire will be bad, but I don't think it'd be ruinous for us - I doubt that it will spread beyond the confines of our home, and even if it did we are a woman, and thus people's expectations of us as a warrior are lowered. Not to mention that, as I said before, he has more skill and training than us. I highly doubt we'd receive nid if we lost.

Eternal_0bserver · Mar 11, 2023

[X] Plan Seizing The Opening

Lunoros · Mar 11, 2023

Shouldn't it be even more important we don't lose. We already have a worse off impression cause we are a woman trying to be a warrior. Us losing to a thrall that isn't at his best would be even worse for us. Like remember for our trial we have to actively excel and do our best unlike what most men have to do the bare minimum. Plus this isn't friendly at all and we should aim for victory.

Toboe · Mar 11, 2023

Constenanto said:
It doesn't block all of his power, though? It's explicitly said that while he can't access all of his power, he can still use the basics. Not to mention that Gabriel is actually more skilled than us by quite a fair bit. I'd say that we still have the advantage, but it's not as big as you're making it out to be.

The "should block all cultivator power" is more about what i think how it looks to someone in that culture.
While I don't have specific quotes, i think they are supposed to block everything, which means that he can use anything is a bug. (probably caused by the difference between norse cultivation and christian cultivation)

And relying on secrecy to keep honour sounds like a bad idea in the setting.

Constenanto · Mar 11, 2023

Lunoros said:
Plus this isn't friendly at all and we should aim for victory.

It isn't friendly, but nor is it life or death. It has stakes, sure, and I - and I imagine, everyone else here - certainly don't want Halla to lose, but neither do I want to ruin our relationship with Jerasmus by breaking Gabriel's spirit over something that we started. That's a pretty shitty thing to do. Not to mention that us losing would only influence the raid trials if news of our loss became public.

Toboe said:
And relying on secrecy to keep honour sounds like a bad idea in the setting.

I mean, sure, but it's not secrecy? I don't see any reason why our family members would go around telling people that we lost to a thrall. Like, if someone really wanted to know, I'm pretty sure that our family, or even Halla herself, would fess up, but I don't see why anyone would. Not to mention that - as I've said before - Halla is a woman, so news of us losing to a thrall getting out would be nowhere near as damaging as if we were a man.

Toboe · Mar 11, 2023

Constenanto said:
Not to mention that - as I've said before - Halla is a woman, so news of us losing to a thrall getting out would be nowhere near as damaging as if we were a man.

What makes you think that being a woman makes losing less damaging?
It means she isn't expected to become a warrior, but she chose to be one anyway.

Constenanto said:
That's a pretty shitty thing to do.

So is owning slaves.
Something Hallas father does and Halla doesn't show any sign of having any problem with.

Constenanto · Mar 11, 2023

Toboe said:
What makes you think that being a woman makes losing less damaging?
It means she isn't expected to become a warrior, but she chose to be one anyway.

Even if we chose to become a warrior, people won't see us as one. We're not held up to the same standards as men because they don't expect us to fight. They have no real reason to do so, considering we're still 'just' a little girl to practically everyone - not even an adult. They have no idea that Halla has killed and actually fought before.

Toboe said:
So is owning slaves.
Something Hallas father does and Halla doesn't show any sign of having any problem with.

This... doesn't have anything to do with what I said? So because we own slaves, we're entitled to being shitty people, or something? Yeah, it's a shitty thing, but that's a problem with the culture and society, not just us.

Sara · Mar 11, 2023

Constenanto said:
Even if we chose to become a warrior, people won't see us as one. We're not held up to the same standards as men because they don't expect us to fight. They have no real reason to do so, considering we're still 'just' a little girl to practically everyone - not even an adult. They have no idea that Halla has killed and actually fought before.

How do you square this with us getting multiple points of Odrengskapr if we chose to turn back from the Halfdanby encounter?

Toboe · Mar 11, 2023

Constenanto said:
Even if we chose to become a warrior, people won't see us as one. We're not held up to the same standards as men because they don't expect us to fight. They have no real reason to do so, considering we're still 'just' a little girl to practically everyone - not even an adult.

Constenanto said:
This... doesn't have anything to do with what I said? So because we own slaves, we're entitled to being shitty people, or something? Yeah, it's a shitty thing, but that's a problem with the culture and society, not just us.

Nah, not that we are entitled to being shitty people.
But that we are already being shitty people. So acting shocked at doing something shitty seems... hypocritical.
And the same cultural and societal issues that make raiding and taking as slaves of people like Gabriel and Jerasmus acceptable would also then make us less respectable.
Respectability that isn't just vanity but is the actual basis of the cultivation system.

Constenanto · Mar 11, 2023

Sara said:
How do you square this with us getting multiple points of Odrengskapr if we chose to turn back from the Halfdanby encounter?

Mm, fair point, though I'd argue that's a completely different situation. This isn't a girl 'pretending' to be a warrior, it's a girl being a bad neighbour and choosing to desert their neighbour. The infopost states that odrengskapr is similar in concept to nid (which is shameful behaviour, just without the supernatural aspect, and leaving your neighbour to die is something pretty shameful), and that it lessens your standing in the community. If we ran away - and I'd assume that if we chose such an option we'd convinc Aki and Abjorn to do so as well - instead of getting help, I think it's understandable that Halla would receive odrengskapr - as the people in the community would be less likely to trust her if she ran away when they needed help - because in that situation she was capable of contributing to the defense of Halfdan, even if people don't expect her to kill all the bandits.

Toboe said:
Nah, not that we are entitled to being shitty people.
But that we are already being shitty people. So acting shocked at doing something shitty seems... hypocritical.

Only by the standards of someone in our century. As far as Halla and the Norse are concerned, she's doing nothing wrong. She has no reason to be a shitty person when (in her eyes) she hasn't done anything like that before.

Toboe · Mar 11, 2023

Constenanto said:
Only by the standards of someone in our century. As far as Halla is concerned, she's doing nothing wrong. She has no reason to be a shitty person when (in her eyes) she hasn't done anything like that before.

And she didn't see insulting him as anything wrong either.

Sara · Mar 11, 2023

Constenanto said:
Mm, fair point, though I'd argue that's a completely different situation. This isn't a girl 'pretending' to be a warrior, it's a girl being a bad neighbour and choosing to desert their neighbour. The infopost states that odrengskapr is similar in concept to nid (which is shameful behaviour, just without the supernatural aspect, and leaving your neighbour to die is something pretty shameful), and that it lessens your standing in the community. If we ran away - and I'd assume that if we chose such an option we'd convinc Aki and Abjorn to do so as well - instead of getting help, I think it's understandable that Halla would receive odrengskapr, as in that situation she was capable of contributing to the defense of Halfdan, even if people don't expect her to kill all the bandits.

This doesn't really track, because while Halfdan and his sons were out contributing to their defense, his daughters and adult wives were held up in the house not doing anything to intervene. Halla's eplicit desire, willingness too, an training to become a warrior means that she's judged differently in this society then most women. It's not even ahistorical to how norse society warrior women were treated irl, either.

It's not even like we'd be going away to a place that we couldn't get help. The options states we'd be taking be heading home, which is the same place we sent Aki to get Steinairr.

Also, it's difficult to say that challenging a thrall to a duel because they struck you and losing wouldn't be shameful in norse society. You can say all you want that halla's a woman and wouldn't be held to that expectation, and normally that might even be true, but the thing is the proper way to handle this would be to then get her father, brother, husband, ect to discipline the thrall for her.

The second she personally decided to fight Gabriel, she would have forfeited those protections in the eyes of society if her years of training and acting as warrior to be hadn't already.

Hunter531 · Mar 11, 2023

[X] Plan Seizing The Opening

Constenanto · Mar 11, 2023

Sara said:
This doesn't really track, because while Halfdan and his sons were out contributing to their defense, his daughters and adult wives were held up in the house not doing anything to intervene.

It's not even like we'd be going away to a place that we couldn't get help. The options states wed be heading home, which is the same place we sent Aki to get Steinairr.

What would his wives and daughters do? Run past a bunch of bandits and hope that they can reach the town to get help?

Not to mention that the option to return home doesn't say anything about actually getting help for Halfdan, unlike when we sent Aki back to our house with the intention of getting help. The tone of the option - "That's a good point, let's just go home." - makes me think that they'd rather let Halfdan fight off his enemies alone than risk someone they're close too getting injured for someone they don't know.

Also, I just saw the post, and it says the we received Odrengskapr not because of how people view us, but because it goes against bold and it's a weak-hearted action. Going off of that, it seems that Odrengskapr is also something internal, rather than entirely external, since the option of going home went against Halla's character. Admittedly, I don't enough about Odrengskapr to say that with 100% confidence, but I'd say it's plausible. Actually, I'll ask. @Imperial Fister do you gain Odrenskapr from how other people view your actions, or is it gained by acting shameful/weak-hearted in general?

Sara said:
Also, it's difficult to say that challenging a thrall to a duel and losing wouldn't be shameful in norse society. You can say all you want that halla's a woman and wouldn't be held to that expectation, and normally that might even be true, but the thing is the proper to handle this would be to then get her father, brother, husband, ect to discipline the thrall for her.

The second she personally decided to fight Gabriel, she would have forfieted those protections in the eyes of society if her years of training and acing as warrior to be hadn't already.

I never said that we would receive no shame at all, just that it would be less than that of a man. Not to mention that Halla's training as a warrior is explicitly a secret. As far as the wider public is concerned, we're still just a rowdy girl. I don't see why people would see her as a warrior now, when her reputation is that of a 'rowdy girl' - they shouldn't be surprised that she would do such a thing, rather than get her father/brother/etc. to punish Gabriel.

Toboe said:
And she didn't see insulting him as anything wrong either.

Except, she did? Like, she literally brings it up at the end of the post that she was egging him on to hit her. She clearly recognised that what she did was wrong, she just didn't care. Also, like, we were just needling him there. Crushing his spirit and insulting his entire being with the aid of orthstirr is like... much worse, in my eyes.

I.F. Ister · Mar 11, 2023

Constenanto said:
@Imperial Fister do you gain Odrenskapr from how other people view your actions, or is it gained by acting shameful/weak-hearted in general?

Both, sort of. You would've gotten a point of Odrengskapr from turning away anyways, but since you had Bold it added another point of Odrengskapr to it. It is far more shameful for a bold person to turn away than it is for a mare-hearted person.

I.F. Ister · Mar 11, 2023

Also, voting is now closed.

Scheduled vote count started by Imperial Fister on Mar 11, 2023 at 5:08 PM, finished with 41 posts and 8 votes.

8 people have voted
[X] Plan Seizing The Opening
-[X] 29d6 Attack (all in tricks)
-[X] 0d6 Defense
-[X] 0d6 Intercept
-[X] Make one 8d (9d with Hugr) Inertia-Arresting Throw to disarm him (-6 Orthstirr), then three Honed 8d Power-Chop attacks (-6 orthstirr), be prepared to abort one Power Chop for a 7d Hefty-Halter Chop if necessary to stop a serious attack (-3 Orthstirr)
-[X] Be prepared to use Contested Movement (-3 Orthstirr) or Halting Vortex (-8 Orthstirr) as necessary to defend, though they probably won't be
-[X] Tactics - Basically, freeze his sword and go to town with the atgeir. It's simple, but it should be effective and it's not wildly expensive if he really is going full defense.

DeadmanwalkingXI · Mar 11, 2023

Toboe said:
Sure on trying the just beating him. If we don't win this turn we can try next.
But on the shame part:
He is a shackled slave.
To repeat with more detail: He is wearing magic shackles limiting his powers. That should block all cultivator power.
Yes, being afraid to challenge him would be shameful.
But that doesn't mean that losing wouldn't be also shameful.

The shackles don't actually restrain him all that much (as others note, I think it's restricting his higareida and that's it), which matters. And that's something that people in the society would know (I highly doubt he's the first Christian captured and made a thrall...indeed that's almost certainly pretty common, so it's definitely a known problem with the shackles).

Like, I think any warrior who'd faced knights and squires on the battlefield wouldn't look down on her for losing the fight as long as we make a good showing, and thus we wouldn't meaningfully lose face.

Toboe said:
Nah, not that we are entitled to being shitty people.
But that we are already being shitty people. So acting shocked at doing something shitty seems... hypocritical.
And the same cultural and societal issues that make raiding and taking as slaves of people like Gabriel and Jerasmus acceptable would also then make us less respectable.
Respectability that isn't just vanity but is the actual basis of the cultivation system.

'Respectable' isn't quite right, though 'respected' is. Those are different words that mean different things. Being respected is what's important, being respectable is only relevant to that inasmuch as it leads to being respected, and Halla gave up certain tyoes of respectability a while ago.

And I think Halla would see insulting him as kind of a dick move at this point. One reason she went with this option rather than telling dad was that she admitted she provoked him into hitting her (which is true). She'd potentially still do it, but she'd do it being aware she is being a dick. Owning slaves is an entirely different thing that she's less aware of the badness of (and has zero control over, at the moment).

Sara · Mar 11, 2023

Constenanto said:
What would his wives and daughters do? Run past a bunch of bandits and hope that they can reach the town to get help?

That's exactly my point. Halla's willingness to do certain things and ability to do them, even despite the fact they weren't well known, meant that she had expectations on her that other people of her gender don't. This is much more common phenomenon in premodern societies then a lot of people tend to think.

Whether this comes from how people view her or how she viewed herself is kind of immaterial to the point, except as far as it being internal would make odrengskapr more likely, not less given the private nature of the contest.

Constenanto said:
I never said that we would receive no shame at all, just that it would be less than that of a man. Not to mention that Halla's training as a warrior is explicitly a secret. As far as the wider public is concerned, we're still just a rowdy girl. I don't see why people would see her as a warrior now, when her reputation is that of a 'rowdy girl' - they shouldn't be surprised that she would do such a thing, rather than get her father/brother/etc. to punish Gabriel.

Well, their was the recent thing where she charged into a burning home being raided by bandits and murdered a man twice her size, winning the eternal friendship of the Halfdan family along with it's patriarchs Atgier.

Toboe · Mar 11, 2023

Constenanto said:
Not to mention that Halla's training as a warrior is explicitly a secret.

Uh, what?
It may not be public knowledge, but "explicitly a secret"?
What has she done to conceal it?

Constenanto said:
I don't see why people would see her as a warrior now, when her reputation is that of a 'rowdy girl'

Because she is acting as one?

Constenanto said:
As far as the wider public is concerned, we're still just a rowdy girl. I don't see why people would see her as a warrior now, when her reputation is that of a 'rowdy girl' - they shouldn't be surprised that she would do such a thing, rather than get her father/brother/etc. to punish Gabriel.

In case she is just a 'rowdy girl' that means the insult wouldn't be dealt with at all. Which brings the shame of "his slave can just slap his daughter without repercussions" on Steinarr.

Sara said:
The second she personally decided to fight Gabriel, she would have forfeited those protections in the eyes of society if her years of training and acting as warrior to be hadn't already.

This!

Actually...
@Imperial Fister
is the insult from Gabriel (as Steinarrs thrall) slapping Halla comparable to the level of insult that would justify/necessitate a holmgang among free norse? (Either towards her or her father)

Franco Asuriano · Mar 11, 2023

I'm out of my depth here, but isn't Norse slavery different from American slavery?
I understand being a slave is undesirable in both cases, but in this case I believe Jerasmus and Gabriel's options were "die here or serve Steinarr as farmhands", and Steinarr's treatment, while rigid, follows certain rules (code of ethics?) and is much more pallatable than American slavery was.
Again, I'm not knowledgeable in this topic.

I.F. Ister · Mar 11, 2023

Toboe said:
@Imperial Fister
is the insult from Gabriel (as Steinarrs thrall) slapping Halla comparable to the level of insult that would justify/necessitate a holmgang among free norse? (Either towards her or her father)

Striking someone hard enough to draw blood is at that level of insult. Fortunately, holmgang isn't strictly lethal. There was also a less formal version of holmgang which I cannot remember the name of right now.

Constenanto · Mar 11, 2023

Sara said:
That's exactly my point. Halla's willingness to do certain things and ability to do them, even despite the fact they weren't well known, meant that she had expectations on her that other people of her gender don't. This is much more common phenomenon in premodern. societies then a lot of people tend to think.

Whether this comes from how people view her or how she viewed herself is kind of immaterial to the point, except as far as it being internal would make odrengskapr more likely, not less given the private nature of the contest.

What, so by your logic, the entire public will judge her as a man when it comes to anything she does, despite having no reason to see her as anything but a girl? That just seems illogical to me.

Also, as Imperial stated, a large part of what contributed to that orthstirr was the fact that she fled her neighbours despite being a bold person. Not to mention that this means that it didn't come from society viewing her as a failure of a warrior, but rather due to her weak actions while also taking into account her nature.

Toboe said:
Uh, what?
It may not be public knowledge, but "explicitly a secret"?
What has she done to conceal it?

Imperial Fister said:
"So teach me," You take a step forward, your boldness surprising the both of you, "teach me so that I one day will be ready to face them."

This time, as you look him in the eye, there's no worry undercutting his feelings, only brilliant pride in his daughter.

"Alright, but you can't tell anyone. And no going off on adventures until you're at least sixteen, especially not with any boys!"

Imperial Fister said:
You are currently a farmer's daughter, though you are now secretly a warrior-in-training.

Toboe said:
Because she is acting as one?

Yes? Because she grew up as one, and as such, the title (for lack of a better word) stuck, regardless of who she actually is.

Toboe said:
In case she is just a 'rowdy girl' that means the insult wouldn't be dealt with at all. Which brings the shame of "his slave can just slap his daughter without repercussions" on Steinarr.

I don't really understand what you mean by this, but I don't see why Halla being known as 'the rowdy girl' would mean that she shouldn't deal with this. By getting slapped by a thrall, it's an insult to her person, not to mention that it'd be seen as weak not to retaliate as Gabriel is her social inferior. 'Rowdy' means noisy and disorderly - usually someone that's prone to making trouble or getting into fights. She's not expected to fight him herself, but what I'm saying is that the village shouldn't be surprised if she did, given her reputation.

NorseQuest (A Norse Xianxia)

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