Histories definitely qualify as books of knowledge, as does philosophy, at least potentially. Religion is a lot more variable, granted, but dismissing history as not really important knowledge strikes me as a really inaccurate thing to do.

And of course, we've seen already that books on cultivation definitely exist in this world, and those definitely qualify as books of knowledge as well.

Why would stories, travelogues and other such literature not be "useful"? That seems like a very narrow-minded view to me - the value of experiencing other cultures and literature is immeasurable. We're in the Carolingian period, when a mass effort by monks is underway to preserve classical learning thanks to Charlemagne. There may be a lot of fairly dull moralising by monks - often still valuable in its own right, given that this sort of writing is often our only written source for figures like King Arthur - but preserved alongside it will be pearls of wisdom from Antiquity.

Even if one insists in looking at things through the narrow lens of "power" it seems very odd to say that stories and folklore are not useful. We're right now about to build a suit of superpowered armour from learning we got via Latin, literally powered by our Saga. We've hidden great secrets of cultivation in poetry. Do you think it never occurred to the boards and mystics of the past to do the same? I would very much like to get a look at the NQ equivalent of Beowulf, for one!

And to answer your other questions in brief, yes, books are expensive. We're rich and have many avenues to make more money. Moreover, this is why I said we could ask permission to copy books - I would like to see some monk's face when we use a Rewrite to instantly learn and train our Fast-Copying Trick or whatever. However many books we can get our mitts on, whether three or thirty three, it's obviously more than we've got now.

To read Latin and English texts, obviously our students would need to be literate in English and Latin. Ideally should learn Greek and French too, if we can find tutors. It wouldn't be much of a school if they didn't learn three or four languages! That's really about the minimum to be considered well read - or even just well travelled - in an early medieval scholastic mieleu.
Books do not truly let you experience other cultures. You experience other cultures by actually experiencing those cultures. Stories, travelogues, all those are things which are best heard upfront. Books only let you see a single snapshot of one curated perspective at most. This is doubly so when the advantage of a book - the ability to be read by multiple people - is being tossed to winds by the simple dint of being in a different language. Is being lost to the fact that someone with Charred Soul can record their personal experiences more faithfully than any book could ever hope to. When I say 'experience those cultures', I mean, talk to those people about their cultures.

Instead of finding a book on Frisians, go visit Frisia and talk to Frisians. Instead of finding a book about FInnish magic, talk to our brother Sten about Finnish Cultivation and Magic. Thinking books are the first resort is backwards. For people to have written a book, they had to experience first, then write 2nd-hand. Or get the experience after, then write 3rd-hand. Each passage diminishes the value of information so inscribed.

As for power. I point out that we learned Latin from a person. Not a book. We learned the method by examining an armor. Not a book. Our secrets of cultivation were written by ourselves. For Norsepeople. The power a non-Norseperson could get from our poetry is scant and bare compared to what a Norseperson could, simply by dint of cultivation. The same is true if we were to go and read the NQ equivalent of Beowolf. We had Jerasmus read out the Bible to us for a full sitting and the only insight we got was 'hey maybe we could make a book'.

I have to seriously question what kind of teachers you intend to have available at schools if we expect teachers to know multiple languages. This is not the 21st century. We are literally the one person in the Hading who knows how to read Latin or English once Bartholomew leaves. Nobody here knows how to read Greek or French. People will only follow ideas if they think the idea is a good one. An idea which does not convert to power is a bad one. It's also hideously impractical on many levels.

Do you know how much of a pain is it to teach people a language, let alone multiple, that they're probably never going to use in their life? To read books which will not meaningfully help with their life? You are boondoogling this school project with ideas that are already dead on arrival simply for lack of utility to Norsemen. Not to mention that because books are so f***ing expensive no other schools will bother keeping expensive and difficult to use foreign language books that the vast majority of Norsemen are going to give approximately 0 fucks about.
I had a genius idea for how to do NQ2. You have three options and, no matter what, you will eventually do all three. The only thing is the order you do them in. Each will be shorter, more contained, and more streamlined than NQ1. This way, you'll be able to do all of the stuff you want to do without having to sacrifice one or the other.

Option 1: Sigurdr, Eyvor, and Asgeirr's adventure in Miklagard
Option 2: Halbjorn and Shadow Twins settling Iceland
Option 3: Unborn kids going with Sten to Finland

Thoughts?

0~0~0

I'll call voting in an hour and a half
I don't think shifting plotlines is the best of ideas, just generally. Shifting perspectives within the same plotline, sure, that's a whole lotta character development to be had. But shifting entire stories is.. well, that's just asking for burnout IMO.
 
I think people are misunderstanding me here.

What I intend to do is follow one plotline to completion, then move on to the next, and then the third after that.
 
I think people are misunderstanding me here.

What I intend to do is follow one plotline to completion, then move on to the next, and then the third after that.

I mean, I dunno if it's a misunderstanding, but that seems to be a good way to end up with NQ2 lasting 5 rl years and burning you out entirely to me.

Unless the plotlines are much more short and concise.
 
Also those plotlines are themselves going to generate new plotlines the players are interested in unless players are extremely restrained.
 
Books do not truly let you experience other cultures. You experience other cultures by actually experiencing those cultures. Stories, travelogues, all those are things which are best heard upfront. Books only let you see a single snapshot of one curated perspective at most. This is doubly so when the advantage of a book - the ability to be read by multiple people - is being tossed to winds by the simple dint of being in a different language. Is being lost to the fact that someone with Charred Soul can record their personal experiences more faithfully than any book could ever hope to. When I say 'experience those cultures', I mean, talk to those people about their cultures.

Instead of finding a book on Frisians, go visit Frisia and talk to Frisians. Instead of finding a book about FInnish magic, talk to our brother Sten about Finnish Cultivation and Magic. Thinking books are the first resort is backwards. For people to have written a book, they had to experience first, then write 2nd-hand. Or get the experience after, then write 3rd-hand. Each passage diminishes the value of information so inscribed.

As for power. I point out that we learned Latin from a person. Not a book. We learned the method by examining an armor. Not a book. Our secrets of cultivation were written by ourselves. For Norsepeople. The power a non-Norseperson could get from our poetry is scant and bare compared to what a Norseperson could, simply by dint of cultivation. The same is true if we were to go and read the NQ equivalent of Beowolf. We had Jerasmus read out the Bible to us for a full sitting and the only insight we got was 'hey maybe we could make a book'.

I have to seriously question what kind of teachers you intend to have available at schools if we expect teachers to know multiple languages. This is not the 21st century. We are literally the one person in the Hading who knows how to read Latin or English once Bartholomew leaves. Nobody here knows how to read Greek or French. People will only follow ideas if they think the idea is a good one. An idea which does not convert to power is a bad one. It's also hideously impractical on many levels.

Do you know how much of a pain is it to teach people a language, let alone multiple, that they're probably never going to use in their life? To read books which will not meaningfully help with their life? You are boondoogling this school project with ideas that are already dead on arrival simply for lack of utility to Norsemen. Not to mention that because books are so f***ing expensive no other schools will bother keeping expensive and difficult to use foreign language books that the vast majority of Norsemen are going to give approximately 0 fucks about.

You could not be more wrong about the value of education. Education is the key that opens the door, it's the Promethean flame, it is the thing which sets people free. And the idea that writing cannot allow us to understand or experience other viewpoints or cultures should be obviously patently absurd given that we are communicating over the internet, in a fictional secondary world inspired by a dead culture which is only known through its preservation via written mediums. The fact that books are not a perfect method of communicating ideas, thoughts and cultures does not equate to them being unable to do so.

Norse culture does not value book learning very much. Instead, Norse culture values, as you put it "going and talking to people". Or to put it more accurately, going and fighting people, taking their things, and occasionally learning their cultivation secrets, and then dying unceremoniously like dogs with no legacy, like every previous generation of Norse warriors. Norse culture is to put it bluntly, fucking pig-ignorant, utterly stagnant, and trapped in a slow and inescapable death-spiral. Norse culture needs to change drastically if it is to survive past the period when it was absorbed into Christendom historically. This is something we have been told explicitly and repeatedly.

Planting the seed of a literate class of Norse scholars, aristocrats and artisans who can take from the learning of other cultures whilst remaining rooted in their own traditions is by no means a certain means to avert the inevitable death of our culture. The death may be inevitable no matter what we do. But new ideas and innovations are the only thing that have a chance of working, of thwarting the Enemy and defeating the Curse of Steel. We've already been told this. Realistically, offering to foster some local kids for a year or two and teach them is not going to change the world overnight, but it can be the first spark of something much bigger, a flame we can tend in multiple lifetimes. A new breed of Norsemen and Norsewomen.

Lastly, it would be extremely odd if tutors we hired were not multilingual. Knowing multiple languages was a prerequisite to being truly educated in a medieval society, due to how many languages were spoken, and the necessity of knowing Latin or Greek to access most classical learning. Most scholars, and indeed most well-travelled people or nobles would speak multiple languages. There's the famous quote from Charles V: "I speak Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men, and German to my horse.". Remember that Halla herself speaks three languages at this point and is currently learning a fourth.

Learning in Latin or Greek specifically is a marker of higher education, and I think Greek might be a little out of our reach at the moment, but Halla already knows Latin and it's a prerequisite for a lot of valuable stuff.

I think people are misunderstanding me here.

What I intend to do is follow one plotline to completion, then move on to the next, and then the third after that.

Apologies for any miscommunication - I did understand that when I read your post, and the reservations I expressed were with that in mind. There is also the question of scope creep - it can be hard to know where a storyline is going when you start it. If it was in effect three separate sequels organised in a rough series, then perhaps? But consider the task you're setting yourself.
 
Lastly, it would be extremely odd if tutors we hired were not multilingual

I mean, we are one of the only multilingual Norsemen we know of. It's not a matter of 'we should never pursue this' but you seem to have the goal of 'the best institute of learning ever invented from word one, where everyone will rush to and want to learn at'. Baby steps, Skippy. We need to hire tutors who can provide attractive skills and good reputations, who will make it look like a place that will ultimately help you be stronger. Not rush to making an institute full of foreigners training diplomats which makes no sense in a Norse environment.

Most norsemen don't even know how to fully read Norse. I don't think we are going to convince them instant they now need to know 4+ languages. Halla learning English was a big deal to King Alfred, becayse of how few Norse he had ever heard of bothered to learn other languages.


You have to take steps 1-9 to get to step 10.
 
You could not be more wrong about the value of education. Education is the key that opens the door, it's the Promethean flame, it is the thing which sets people free. And the idea that writing cannot allow us to understand or experience other viewpoints or cultures should be obviously patently absurd given that we are communicating over the internet, in a fictional secondary world inspired by a dead culture which is only known through its preservation via written mediums. The fact that books are not a perfect method of communicating ideas, thoughts and cultures does not equate to them being unable to do so.

Norse culture does not value book learning very much. Instead, Norse culture values, as you put it "going and talking to people". Or to put it more accurately, going and fighting people, taking their things, and occasionally learning their cultivation secrets, and then dying unceremoniously like dogs leaving nothing of significance behind them, just like every previous generation of Norse warriors. Norse culture is to put it bluntly, fucking pig-ignorant, utterly stagnant, and trapped in a slow and inescapable death-spiral. Norse culture needs to change drastically if it is to survive past the period when it was absorbed into Christendom historically. This is something we have been told explicitly and repeatedly.
When did I ever imply or state such things about education? I speak such things about Books. And not 21st century books, 8th~9th century Books. As for communicating other viewpoints and cultures via the medium of writing: I have conversed with you much, yet I know nothing about Labrador culture. I think that says it all, really.

As to your second paragraph: How exactly do you propose changing the value of book learning by adding books of difficult-to-access knowledge of limited value? There is a vast scope of difference between a book with immediately actionable value (Hallamal) in a language that can already be understood (Norse Runes) as compared to a book with limited value [To a Norseman] (The Bible, Treatise on Frisian Cultivation) written in a language (Latin, English) that cannot be understood without first learning it.
Planting the seed of an educated class of Norse aristocrats and artisans who can take from the learning of other cultures whilst remaining rooted in their own traditions is by no means a certain means to avert the inevitable death of our culture. The death may be inevitable no matter what we do. But new ideas and innovations are the only thing that have a chance of working, of thwarting the Enemy and defeating the Curse of Steel. We've already been told this. Realistically, offering to foster some local kids for a year or two and teach them is not going to change the world overnight, but it can be the first spark of something much bigger, a flame we can tend in multiple lifetimes. A new breed of Norsemen and Norsewomen.

Lastly, it would be extremely odd if tutors we hired were not multilingual. Knowing multiple languages was a prerequisite to being truly educated in a medieval society, due to how many languages were spoken, and the necessity of knowing Latin or Greek to access most classical learning. Most scholars, and indeed most well-travelled people or noblemen would speak several languages. There's the famous quote from Charles V: "I speak Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men, and German to my horse.". Remember that Halla herself speaks three languages at this point and is currently learning a fourth.

Learning in Latin or Greek specifically is a marker of higher education, and I think Greek might be a little out of our reach at the moment, but Halla already knows Latin and it's a prerequisite for a lot of valuable stuff.
And those kids will bored out of their lives if they have to learn multiple languages of limited value. We see this even IRL. Not only that, Halla is very different from Norsemen due to being connected to SV. We, SV, see great value in book-learning. For obvious reasons. But a Norseperson is only going to see value in book learning if it gives them immediately useful information. Like, before we introduce the value of learning written English (on top of spoken English) so you can read English books (or Latin to learn Latin books, etc), we need to introduce the idea of learning written Norse (after already knowing spoken Norse) so you use Norse Runes (a very powerful capability!) and read Norse Books.

New ideas can only germinate if they prove themselves worthwhile and feasible within the context of their culture.
 
Let's go ahead and take a step back for a few minutes so we can come back calm. While it's not there yet, I can feel the irritation radiating through my monitor and I'd rather not have to figure out how the infractions system works
 
Hey Halla!

1) Has Abjorn hit Stage 1 yet? Has he done Hamr, Hugr or Fylgjur Infusions?
2) Does the idea of 'casting' a Seidr spell into an item make sense?
3) What about making an item that can cast a single, specific Seidr spell you know?
4) Have you taught your friends, family and hird about stuff like Alloying having a much larger scope than just Hugareida, stuff like that?
5) Do you know if Audrikr Fishfighter's oaths are to Folkmarr Manetaker or to Dorri?
6) What's your Winrate% in your communal sparring?
7) Would it be insulting to challenge Halfdan to a spar?
8) Are your children old enough that you could teach them stuff like Eyetalk and Follower finds a Friendly Fellow?
 
After we blood imbibe this turn and see what it's like

Would anyone be interested in offering Bjorney our own blood? We had it confirmed that humans are a valid target for blood imbibing. And Halla definitely qualifies as more powerful. And symbolically offering Bjorney our blood is a cool adoption thing, though I'm not sure if he really cares to see Halla as a Mom figure. We haven't exactly spent that much time with him to find out how he thinks of Halla.

This came up briefly in the discord because we had it confirmed that Bjorney is basically fully grown at this point.
 
After we blood imbibe this turn and see what it's like

So, the sticking point for that is really more whether using our Odr to allow the imbibing of others is safe. Which we probably want to figure out for reasons other than just Bjorney...if it is, we could probably have Stigmar Imbibe from the prey this turn, which would be self-evidently cool. Abjorn has his own Odr and should be able to manage some Imbibing fine either way, I think.
 
Not sure about the Odr thing, though I doubt Fister is going to seriously injure one of our kids over something like this - it would be more like a really bad upset stomach as the imbibing doesn't "take".

Honestly it kinda feels that for both metanarrative reasons but also the narrative logic that our in-universe powers run on, there's probably a limit to how many people can imbibe from the same thing, and also maybe some rule in place that means you get the most benefit if it's something you killed yourself. The latter I'm less sure of than the former (we got it confirmed that our kids could still gain benefit from Moonless Night if one of them ate the heart after all), but the former is how it worked with Moonless Night and the Shadow-Bear, so I'd presume there's only so much magical "juice" in the blood which can only be divided so many ways.
 
Not sure about the Odr thing, though I doubt Fister is going to seriously injure one of our kids over something like this - it would be more like a really bad upset stomach as the imbibing doesn't "take".

I'm pretty sure he would if we start doing risky experiments on them. It's not their Fated Day so they can go all the way to 'dead' and still get better. Which is part of why I would not be inclined to do this kind of experimentation on the kids, of course.

Honestly it kinda feels that for both metanarrative reasons but also the narrative logic that our in-universe powers run on, there's probably a limit to how many people can imbibe from the same thing, and also maybe some rule in place that means you get the most benefit if it's something you killed yourself. The latter I'm less sure of than the former (we got it confirmed that our kids could still gain benefit from Moonless Night if one of them ate the heart after all), but the former is how it worked with Moonless Night and the Shadow-Bear, so I'd presume there's only so much magical "juice" in the blood which can only be divided so many ways.

I suspect that's entirely correct. I also strongly suspect it's not 'only one person per creature' which makes attempting it with three people who worked together to kill it pretty spot-on in terms of 'how many people can actually benefit from one thing'.

Heart-Eating is only one person and is what you're referring to, but that's actually also very different from Imbibing.
 
Heart-Eating is only one person and is what you're referring to, but that's actually also very different from Imbibing.

Well what I meant is less about how many people can eat an organ, but more that with Moonless Night and the Shadow Bear, there was a certain amount of "spirit" which could empower a certain number of things, whether that was organs, pelt, bone ash, or so on. The physical size of the skeleton or the number of organs wasn't the limiter, you would run out of spirit before then.

Imbibing probably runs on slightly different metaphysics because it's more about incorporating some of the "nature" of the thing into your own nature, but I suspect there is some sort of limiting factor which comes into play long before you would physically run out of blood.
 
Back
Top