NorseQuest (A Norse Xianxia)

Skippy · Aug 5, 2023

Uhm, are we sure Hal's mother was wagered at all? There are a number of ways you might win someone's hand in marriage via a duel which aren't staking the wife like a gold watch in a poker game. Marriage-by-kidnapping customs are quite common historically (and often were ritualised to the point where the wife was "in on it", sometimes not), so Hake may have abducted her and then challenged a would-be-rescuer from her immediate family.

Or there might have been a legal challenge by Hal's mothers relatives which was revolved via a judicial duel.

Also, given he says that Blackhand "had his reasons" for not rescuing them... how sure are we that Blackhand wasn't involved in setting up the duel? Perhaps as a way to avoid a wider feud or an outright war or for some other reason; maybe Blackhand was traded something extremely valuable in exchange or as weregild.

Some_guy_161 · Aug 5, 2023

~~[X] Tell him~~

Edit: Man, the vote periods are too short. I keep missing them.

DeadmanwalkingXI · Aug 5, 2023

Skippy said:
Uhm, are we sure Hal's mother was wagered at all? There are a number of ways you might win someone's hand in marriage via a duel which aren't staking the wife like a gold watch in a poker game. Marriage-by-kidnapping customs are quite common historically (and often were ritualised to the point where the wife was "in on it", sometimes not), so Hake may have abducted her and then challenged a would-be-rescuer from her immediate family.

His mother was clearly not happy with the arrangement and he blames them for never trying to save her. So...I don't see a way that them coming to save her fits in there, even if they failed. Like, he wouldn't be this upset if they tried and failed...he's specifically upset they never tried.

Skippy said:
Or there might have been a legal challenge by Hal's mothers relatives which was revolved via a judicial duel.

Huh? Norse law does not include wagering free women as part of its judicial process.

Skippy said:
Also, given he says that Blackhand "had his reasons" for not rescuing them... how sure are we that Blackhand wasn't involved in setting up the duel? Perhaps as a way to avoid a wider feud or an outright war or for some other reason; maybe he was traded something extremely valuable in exchange.

Timeline-wise, his reasons are almost certainly being dead. He died about 13 years or so before Hal here was born. Also, from context, I'm pretty sure Blackhand wouldn't do this.

Oshha · Aug 5, 2023

Skippy said:
Also, given he says that Blackhand "had his reasons" for not rescuing them... how sure are we that Blackhand wasn't involved in setting up the duel?

I got the implication that Blackhand's reason was that he was dead when the duel happened.

Hunter531 · Aug 5, 2023

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Things are still a bit tense for that, I think. Talking and trading info, sure...sparring? Maybe not so much.

Fair enough. Given who his father is, he's probably from Vestfold, and we were planning on visiting there anyways. Adding another stop on the itinerary shouldn't be too difficult.

Skippy · Aug 5, 2023

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
His mother was clearly not happy with the arrangement and he blames them for never trying to save her. So...I don't see a way that them coming to save her fits in there, even if they failed. Like, he wouldn't be this upset if they tried and failed...he's specifically upset they never tried.

We know someone lost a duel, and this is how Hake got Hal's mum. That person being some member of her immediate family, and Hal and his mother holding a grudge that the rest of her family did not then come to the rescue, does not feel inconsistent to me with anything here.

Which to be clear, does not mean it's correct - my point is more that there's a lot of things which could be consistent with what he's told us right now.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Huh? Norse law does not include wagering free women as part of its judicial process.

...I'm confused, the one who suggested she was wagered was you? I was posting saying I think we can't assume that.

Judicial duels do definitely seem to be a customary method of arbitration in the version of Norse law in this setting, including (for example) a legal challenge over a marriage or kidnapping. This might also mean that the reason why the rest of her family did not rescue her would be due to the risk of outlawry - which is exactly the kind of tragic dilemma I think IF might be going for here.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Timeline-wise, his reasons are almost certainly being dead. He died about 13 years or so before Hal here was born. Also, from context, I'm pretty sure Blackhand wouldn't do this.

Ah, yeah, that's a good point.

DeadmanwalkingXI · Aug 5, 2023

Skippy said:
We know someone lost a duel, and this is how Hake got Hal's mum. That person being some member of her immediate family, and Hal and his mother holding a grudge that the rest of her family did not then come to the rescue, does not feel inconsistent to me with anything here.

Which to be clear, does not mean it's correct - my point is more that there's a lot of things which could be consistent with what he's told us right now.

Technically possible, but that's not 'won in a duel' and describing it that way would be really weird.

Skippy said:
...I'm confused, the one who suggested she was wagered was you? I was posting saying I think we can't assume that.

I mean 'won in a duel' implies a wager. But wagering free women in a duel would be super illegal in Norse society, I'm pretty sure. Like, immediate outlawing for everyone kind of illegal, I'm pretty sure. Remember that this is a society where women could in fact divorce their husbands...they're not exactly viewed as property. Which doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't legal.

Skippy said:
Judicial duels do definitely seem to be a customary method of arbitration in the version of Norse law in this setting, including (for example) a legal challenge over a marriage or kidnapping. This might also mean that the reason why the rest of her family did not rescue her would be due to the risk of outlawry - which is exactly the kind of tragic dilemma I think IF might be going for here.

A judicial duel would not protect a kidnapper from another country (which is the situation here), because nobody on the Skane side of the family would care about being outlawed in Vestfold, and Hake wouldn't have legal standing to be involved in one in Skane. They're completely different countries. So...this doesn't follow as a logical series of events, I don't think.

I.F. Ister · Aug 5, 2023

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Huh? Norse law does not include wagering free women as part of its judicial process.

It happens, sometimes, that a guy will swagger on in and demand a woman. The father/brother/whatever of that woman is like 'fuck no' and then they fight about it. Sometimes, the male relative wins. Other times, the guy wins, kills the male relative, and then fucks off with the poor woman.

spiritualatheist · Aug 5, 2023

[X] Tell him

DeadmanwalkingXI · Aug 5, 2023

Imperial Fister said:
It happens, sometimes, that a guy will swagger on in and demand a woman. The father/brother/whatever of that woman is like 'fuck no' and then they fight about it. Sometimes, the male relative wins. Other times, the guy wins, kills the male relative, and then fucks off with the poor woman.

Yep. That's what I was expecting to be the case at this point. That is not what I would describe as a judicial process, however. It being what happened means she wasn't bet per se, which is fair enough, though.

TheCount · Aug 5, 2023

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
How? Them being lied to and the guy never having told them (due to being dead) are identical from the perspective of whether they deserve to be punished. It makes the theory wrong, but that doesn't mean it's a threat. The point was never to convince him of a specific theory, it was to get him thinking in terms of them not knowing. Which seems likely one way or the other.

Now, it lost and that's fine, but I'm just confused by your logic here.

Oshha said:
How is it a threat? If anything it reduces the threat by suggesting that they were lied to and didn't ignore the plight of their kinswoman. And if the theory is wrong and they did know what actually happened, then frankly, they deserve whatever they get for doing nothing.

we had this argument on discord with deadman as well, but here is my reasoning:

from the discord said:
Because, as i said already:
1) No way the family would stand it. not after the escape from Gotland happenen.
2) If the one who bet her survived and returned to the family in Skane, he would be held accountable and either killed for good or expected to hunt down the berserker that took her with support.
3) if the person survived but never returned or truly died, the family knows nothing about it.
4) implying that someone lied to either him or the family paints the whole interaction
not to mention its nothing he or his mother wouldn't have considered

i am more curious about WHEN this happened, if Hallr is his great-grandfather
because if it was before Hall'rs death, the person is definitely dead

Here is the rough timeline of the events from Steinarrs PoV

Imperial Fister said:
>Steinarr 12: Blackhand dies, family is forced on an exodus
>Steinarr 14: After years of hardship, the majority of the surviving family settle in Skane. The locals are displeased. Steinarr wins the affections of Asveig. Horra kills Steinarr's brothers in a battle, which sets him off.
>Steinarr 24: Steinarr returns from Constantinople, marries Asveig, Sten is born. Steinarr learns that Horra is in Persia, so he gathers his friends and goes after him.
>Steinarr 26: Steinarr returns home bitter, but with the knowledge that Horra is dead. Eric is born. The Freedfire kenning is put aside.

That's the rough timeline, anyways. Things probably don't line up perfectly.

Again, no way the family, after two years of wandering, would tolerate someone betting one of thiers on a duel. and suggesting the theory would have colored his interactions.

Iether the person who bet her died

or, and this just occurred to me, his mother might have been from a smaller group of the family that broke off in the exodus.

DeadmanwalkingXI · Aug 5, 2023

TheCount said:
Again, no way the family, after two years of wandering, would tolerate someone betting one of thiers on a duel. and suggesting the theory would have colored his interactions.

Suggesting it as a hypothetical probably still would've been fine? But it's probably not what happened given stuff IF has said, yeah. Regardless, it's not happening so we can stop relitigating this.

Skippy · Aug 5, 2023

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
I mean 'won in a duel' implies a wager.

So I think this is the crux of the disagreement? It seems to be that you are assuming this is the case, and agree to the extent that it might be... I think that his words can naturally be read more broadly than this.

Winning a judicial duel over a marriage-by-kidnapping (or a love match the family did not approve of) could absolutely be normally described as "won in a duel". Winning implies a contest or conflict, it does not necessarily imply gambling.

Imperial Fister said:
It happens, sometimes, that a guy will swagger on in and demand a woman. The father/brother/whatever of that woman is like 'fuck no' and then they fight about it. Sometimes, the male relative wins. Other times, the guy wins, kills the male relative, and then fucks off with the poor woman.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Yep. That's what I was expecting to be the case at this point. That is not what I would describe as a judicial process, however. It being what happened means she wasn't bet per se, which is fair enough, though.

...I think what IF is describing here would in many cases be a judicial duel?

DeadmanwalkingXI · Aug 5, 2023

Skippy said:
So I think this is the crux of the disagreement? It seems to be that you are assuming this is the case, and agree to the extent that it might be... I think that his words can naturally be read more broadly than this.

Fair enough, maybe you're right. I will note that I was actually not the one to first make this assumption. A lot of people made it and I went 'Yeah that sounds right.' That may well have been wrong, but I was hardly alone in that interpretation.

Skippy said:
Winning a judicial duel over a marriage-by-kidnapping (or a love match the family did not approve of) could absolutely be normally described as "won in a duel". Winning implies a contest or conflict, it does not necessarily imply gambling.

...I think what IF is describing here would in many cases be a judicial duel?

I don't think so? A judicial duel would be one that was actually assigned by the court. Like, if we and Skoll don't come to an agreement on the heart, take it to court and the court says "Okay, fight for it."

Toboe · Aug 5, 2023

Imperial Fister said:
It happens, sometimes, that a guy will swagger on in and demand a woman. The father/brother/whatever of that woman is like 'fuck no' and then they fight about it. Sometimes, the male relative wins. Other times, the guy wins, kills the male relative, and then fucks off with the poor woman.

Sounds like a great way to start a blood feud.
Also sounds like it would be really bad for the husbands health, to have a wive that holds a grudge because of this way of marriage.

Constenanto · Aug 5, 2023

The way Imperial phrased it made it seem like to me that a person just barges into a property - regardless of if they're invited - and demands a woman, and the fighting is the result of a male relative obviously not wanting their female relative to be kidnapped, rather than an officially sanctioned duel to me.

I.F. Ister · Aug 5, 2023

Constenanto said:
The way Imperial phrased it made it seem like to me that a person just barges into a property - regardless of if they're invited - and demands a woman, and the fighting is the result of a male relative obviously not wanting their female relative to be kidnapped, rather than an officially sanctioned duel to me.

that's the one

DeadmanwalkingXI · Aug 5, 2023

Toboe said:
Also sounds like it would be really bad for the husbands health, to have a wive that holds a grudge because of this way of marriage.

Sadly, Norsemen not dying when they are killed makes this a lot dicier than in real life. Killing a man in his sleep has a 2/3 chance of just pissing him off if he has people who will bring him back. At which point you get executed for nothing.

Skippy · Aug 5, 2023

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Fair enough, maybe you're right. I will note that I was actually not the one to first make this assumption. A lot of people made it and I went 'Yeah that sounds right.' That may well have been wrong, but I was hardly alone in that interpretation.

Yeah fair enough. Like to be clear, I think it definitely could be right, my point was more uh, to think hard about alternatives, and if we're only getting half of a story here.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
I don't think so? A judicial duel would be one that was actually assigned by the court. Like, if we and Skoll don't come to an agreement on the heart, take it to court and the court says "Okay, fight for it."

This is essentially what I was proposing - where it happened as the result of the family pursuing legal action, and the court assigning a duel. (Which they might depending on custom, or if the abductor has powerful friends.)

But then @Imperial Fister clarified what he meant, so I was wrong. Seems like it probably wasn't outlawry keeping anyone from intervening, unless the King later legitimised it by marrying her off to one of his dudes?

DeadmanwalkingXI · Aug 5, 2023

Skippy said:
Yeah fair enough. Like to be clear, I think it definitely could be right, my point was more uh, to think hard about alternatives, and if we're only getting half of a story here.

It's certainly possible she wasn't bet, maybe even likely given some of IF's statements, but I'm pretty sure there was nothing legal about this whole situation.

Skippy said:
This is essentially what I was proposing - where it happened as the result of the family pursuing legal action, and the court assigning a duel. (Which they might depending on custom, or if the abductor has powerful friends.)

So, I'm pretty sure the courts would never say 'Okay, if you win you can keep her.' Women (again, barring thralls) were not property. If this kind of thing happened, the duel would be about whether her family got reparations or things like that, not for her per se.

Skippy said:
But then @Imperial Fister clarified what he meant, so I was wrong. Seems like it probably wasn't outlawry keeping anyone from intervening, unless the King later legitimised it by marrying her off to one of his dudes?

Wouldn't matter. She wasn't married to the guy who kidnapped her, so they could still go after him.

Shard · Aug 5, 2023

It might be worth noting that the Skane side of the family 'only' had Steinarr go on a lifetime murderquest after Horra after Sten and Sterki got murdered.

Toboe · Aug 5, 2023

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Sadly, Norsemen not dying when they are killed makes this a lot dicier than in real life. Killing a man in his sleep has a 2/3 chance of just pissing him off if he has people who will bring him back. At which point you get executed for nothing.

Yeah.
Would need to also fake a situation in which the house (including the body and backup hair for ressurection) burns down. And then the issue of getting home again.

DeadmanwalkingXI · Aug 5, 2023

Shard said:
It might be worth noting that the Skane side of the family 'only' had Steinarr go on a lifetime murderquest after Horra after Sten and Sterki got murdered.

I got the impression they backed him up when he was in Norse lands, they just didn't follow him to, like, Persia.

Toboe said:
Yeah.
Would need to also fake a situation in which the house (including the body and backup hair for ressurection) burns down. And then the issue of getting home again.

A concubine probably still gets blamed for this and executed, honestly.

Toboe · Aug 5, 2023

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
A concubine probably still gets blamed for this and executed, honestly.

Yeah, after the act gtfo asap.

I.F. Ister · Aug 5, 2023

[X] Tell him
-[X] If he swears to start by asking what happened, not go right to violence, and to leave noncombatants out of it as best he can.

0~0~0

"I need you to promise me that you won't go in swords swinging, that you'll hear them out before you make any rash decisions."

Your words hang in the air like an oath. Hal doesn't flinch away from your eyes, his gaze keeps steady as he gives voice to thoughts.

"On the oath I swore to my blood-brother, you won't see me slaughter our undeserving kin."

Fated chains fall in place as those words leave his lips. He will abide by that oath or suffer terribly.

Things progress smoothly afterwards. You tell him of the relatives in Skane and he tells you of his life. Of how he was born to a doting mother in Alfny and a compassionate father in Adgils. He largely glosses over his youth, but one notable thing sticks out to you.

"Wait, wait hold on a second," you say as your eyebrows enter orbit, "you joined a Warband at, what, ten?"

"The Ulfhednar," Hal nods with a small, wry grin on his face, like it was the most casual thing in the world, "and yeah, yeah I did. My father is a Skirsvikingar survivor, so he taught me a couple tricks, which helped."

Yeah, going with the diplomatic angle was the right choice here, there's no doubt about it.

Hal glances over his shoulder, towards his men waiting on the boats. He frowns and casts his gaze up to the sun. The frown deepens into a scowl as he clocks the time.

"Looks like the hour is almost up," he mutters as he turns back towards you. "We've only got a few minutes before I have to leave. So," he slaps hands to his thigh and stands up, eyes sharpening as he rises, "would you like to spar before I go? It'd be nice to get a measure for our family's strength."

He offers his hand. Do you take it?

[ ] Yes, spar with Hal
[ ] No, don't spar with Hal

0~0~0

AN: Apologies for brevity

No moratorium, potential for third update

NorseQuest (A Norse Xianxia)

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