- Location
- Austria
Sorry, might I ask you about why do you support granting Hyria autonomy? I mean, it sounds like a nice thing to do, but I am not sure it's useful? Like, what do we gain there?
Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
-
- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
Mostly made that decision based on the heavier infantry - that felt more valuable right now.
Brention, Caelia, and Hyria make up 50+% of the Messapii anyways - so what we're really losing is tribute from less than half. That's not a significant amount of money, and the strategic goal of neutering them as a unified force is still achieved.
Walker Of Chaos
Best/Worst Dynasty
- Location
- Sweden
Didn't we in the past discouraged Iapygic heavy infantry in favor of getting more skirmishers and cavalry? Since our own hopilites had proven to be superior to their natve counterparts while our lighter troops were always inferior.
Plus, I think therewere mentions of the language being an issue and native infantry lacking the espirit de corps of the militia based hoplites as well as as needing the other types of soldiers more. So yeah, I am a bit surprised that we are now suddenly talking about heavy infantry again since the only source I can think of that we would accept with no problem would be the cretan settlers . Though I guess that there is a use for heavy infantry besides the phalanx like we for example see in Alexanders armies and indeed I remember having argued for using native troopsin that regard in the past.
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dontpressenter
Irrational Philosopher
- Location
- An alternate universe not unlike our own...
Literally no one is suggesting we align ourselves with the Spartans, Dareios. Cease conjuring phantoms for you to dispute. I, for one, am wary of joining Alkibiades' designs to rush us into an Athenian war. Even the blind know of his desires to rekindle aqthe flames of conflict and these overtures are clearly designed to bind us.
If that is what the Ekklesia's desires, then so be it. But realise that it comes at the cost of the relationship we have worked hard to repair with Taras, and that such a thing will cause them to seek Spartan support. If they do, the fault will be ours, and ours alone. Realise also that Athens do not view us as equals and desire us never to be an equal. Any partnership we have with them will have us as a junior.
The gold we gain from the friendship is indeed grand, my friends, but I fear that its cost May be something that we might lose forever.
So says Heliodoros son of the departed Giorgios.
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Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
Don't recall, but regardless - we needed a screen for our phalanx then, but have those Peuketii/Egnatian skirmishers on hand now. So I'd rather see something new from the next round of vassals.
- Location
- Space
I would advise against accepting Athenian offer, yes we will gain more money and what some consider to be more leverage on Athens as exporter of Grain to them,but what kind of leverage we have if Athens can always turn towards bosphorus if they feel like it.
But let's see what we will loose, QM himself confirmed that Taras would be ready to embark towards closer relationship with Eretria so alliance with Taras would be possible followed by them joining our league, which would make our goal of Italian Leauge closer to reality.
On other hand Athens won't instantly cut all its ties to us, they will be offended but they will not attack us over it and will continue to have good relationship with us.
Basically any deal with Athens is with temporary gains for us, but at the price of prestige and political loss in Italy as Leauge that we wish for would be out of our grasp.
But let's see what we will loose, QM himself confirmed that Taras would be ready to embark towards closer relationship with Eretria so alliance with Taras would be possible followed by them joining our league, which would make our goal of Italian Leauge closer to reality.
On other hand Athens won't instantly cut all its ties to us, they will be offended but they will not attack us over it and will continue to have good relationship with us.
Basically any deal with Athens is with temporary gains for us, but at the price of prestige and political loss in Italy as Leauge that we wish for would be out of our grasp.
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Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
Dareios: "Truly something must be wrong with the ekklesia's memory. Not only have they forgotten who their friends and enemies are, they have forgotten the arguments they themselves were making not even an hour ago!"
"As for the spawn of Eris that calls himself Alkibiades, the ekklesia is gravely underestimating him if they think that rejecting this treaty he proposes will undermine his plans. Indeed, it would not surprise me if he's counting on us to reject this treaty, for whatever nebulous reasons that have nestled themselves in his mind."
"As for Taras, it is the Tarans the ekklesia wishes to ally with now? The same Tarans who we fought a war with not 10 years ago, while Athens has been, if not our friend then atleast a benevolent neutral, for decades? And yet it is the Tarans who are seen as friends now and the Athenians who are considered the spawn of Tartarus?! And people mock the fickle nature of the Athenian ekklesia, ha!"
"Ah citizens, do not worry about the Tarans! If they forget their place, we will crush them as surely as that Helios rises in the east! And if they get Spartan aid, the Athenians will have no choice but to support us, not only to keep their grain shipments safe but also because it is simply in their nature to oppose everything the Spartans try to do."
dontpressenter
Irrational Philosopher
- Location
- An alternate universe not unlike our own...
*Deep breath*
"Your hysterical rants do you no credit, Dareios. Believing things to be either one extreme or another. One can be suspicious of a polis without considering it the 'spawn of Tartarus'. One can desire to maintain cordial relations with a people without binding himself to them.
And I have not forgotten. Do not...dare imply I have forgotten. I have not forgotten the war between brothers, a war that I had supported in a thirst of glory. I have not forgotten the friends that I have lost through the sling and the spear. I have not forgotten Isokrates Hypatos, who could have been the best of us, lying bleeding in front of me, spear embedded in his neck.
I have forgotten none of these things.
But most of all, I have not forgotten the tree of peace they have planted in our city, or the tree of peace we have planted in theirs. I have not forgotten the vow we made in the eyes of the gods, never to ally ourselves with the powers in Hellas that so desperately want to to rip themselves apart.
And though this Athenian offer does not break the letter, friends, surely we can see it goes against the spirit. And trying to weasel words in the presence of the gods...
Accept this offer, and we invite this conflict that has consumed Hellas to Eretria. I will fight, as all citizens must, but I refuse to blunder into this blindly.
Thus says Heliodoros, son of the departed Giorgios."
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- Him/He
With all due respect the part in bold seem like a massive stretch to me. Closer relationship leading to an alliance would be possible but that really isn't the same thing as Taras actually accepting to join our hegemonia. Yes we are somewhat more powerfull but they remain very much in the same tier as us, a power to be treated as an equal and not somebody we can hope to have accept our authority over them for the forseable future through anything but decisive military victory. Hegemonia over the whole of the greek cities of Italy is definitely not just around the corner, and would necessitate at least one major war ending in victory to have a shot at happening.
Hell, even a mere regional/local power who was on death door like Kimay only accepted to join the Epulian League with major reluctance. Taras is far more powerfull and isn't in any immediate danger.
Moreover, we have no reasons, really, to think we would loose any prestige with the rest of Italy. I don't know where the idea we would be pupets came from. We are essentially debating a trade deal with a friendship treaty here, nothing more.
Doesn't work that way unfortunately. Hoplitic warfare was adopted in one or another by allot of peoples who aren't greeks. Hell, the very first battle Eretria fought after the afixe had the Peucetii infantry fought as hoplites, and they certainly weren't all that helenised by this point.
Moreover, the idea that supporting Hyria is somehow gonna make them more Hellenes seem rather odd to me considering the first of the two reasons, one that most peoples supporting granting them autonomy seem to ignore, is that they are facing, in the word of the update, cultural death. The Messapii culture of before the arrival of the Greeks is disapearing and, appart from very specific aspect like Dyonisos they can adapt to their own purposes, they simply don't recognise themselves, and aren't attracted by a culture from whom came so much harm to them and their fellow Lapgives. Hell, it was Kyros Gennadios upcoming arrival in the city that lighted the powderkeg!
OOC both issues (cultural death and the way the nobles acted) are perfectly understandable, indeed legitimate, grievances. I don't blame the people of Hyria one bit for rising in revolt.
IC, however, the cultural causes of the revolt effectively make it an anti-Helenic rising, which mean that realistically supporting it is probably gonna have bad consequences for us down the line.
And that isn't even going into how throwing some of our allies under the after we allowed the Satyr to essentially take over Brention and are seemingly about to accept Ausculos deal slaughter of our allies inside the Dauni Kingdom would be perceived by all the other Pro-Eretria Lapgives leaders...
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- Location
- Southern Virginia
I mean one way to access the resources of the salt around Salapia is opening trade with the Dauni. It's not like they can ship it abroad after all.
Would trade with the Dauni in the Peace option create a Salt trade or another Staple trade, @Cetashwayo?
Would trade with the Dauni in the Peace option create a Salt trade or another Staple trade, @Cetashwayo?
- Location
- Germany
Not really, you see...we wouldn't actualy control the resource it's production or even the industry we could build from it. We'd be pretty much become dependand on the Dauni for Salt if we wished to make it a part of the resources we use for trade. Why bother paying people who clearly are your enemies for something you can take from them?
- Location
- Meycauayan, Bulacan, Philippines
Make this clear to them from the start so they would have financial and personal incentives to stick to their end of the peace deal?
- Location
- Germany
..But...why!?
It's not worth it, they would control the source of our Salt trade which is something they could hold as leverage over us in the long run. Why bother with all of this if again I point out. You can..you know..just take it and cut out the middle man?..Maximize profits and have a monopoly on the salt in that region?..You know, the easier and defiently smarter thing to do.
- Location
- Meycauayan, Bulacan, Philippines
Take out the middleman? We are the middleman between the Dauni and the rest of the world. I don't think we can consume all that salt by ourselves, can we? I remember @Cetashwayo saying we produce enough salt for ourselves but not enough for export.
- Location
- Germany
Eh, bad choice of words there on my part but no, we would produce and sell the salt instead of buying it from the Dauni and selling it to others.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] [Hyria] Grant Hyria autonomy and Artahias allyship [+5,500 freemen providing tributes and levies including heavier infantry, Artahias becomes a loyal Eretrian ally rather than vassal].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Peace [Eretria and the Dauni will cease hostility, open trade to one another, and stop plotting against one another].
[X] [Athenai] Accept the Athenian treaty [Athenai will be grateful, Taras will be disturbed, Eretrian grain trade will grow faster in the future].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Peace [Eretria and the Dauni will cease hostility, open trade to one another, and stop plotting against one another].
[X] [Athenai] Accept the Athenian treaty [Athenai will be grateful, Taras will be disturbed, Eretrian grain trade will grow faster in the future].
- Location
- Meycauayan, Bulacan, Philippines
And encourage the rise of Mercantilism as opposed to Laissez Faire, which hopefully leads to Rhine Capitalism in the future?
Edit: Hey, that's a good idea.
If we take out the Dauni for the salt, that's encouraging Mercantilism. If we live and let live and start trading normally, that's encouraging Laissez-Faire.
...I know what branch of capitalism I prefer.
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Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
Fools! We must crush capitalism, not encourage it!
- Location
- Germany
Which isn't a bad thing if it's kept under control but no. It would take years maybe even decades for such a system to take roots in Eretrian goverment considering how things in Eretrian work. The Ssalt producting would I believe fall under the control of the Goverment and not wealthy individuals, the selling of it to the wider world however would which could possibly create a Merchant class in the city which again isn't a bad thing.
That however is just a hypothetical scenario which probaly won't even happen.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Being the middle man for salt is very lucrative. What are the Dauni going to do, NOT trade salt to us to sell on to others? Sure, if the nobles are content with their king continuously killing them off.
If the King keeps denying them their salt all that will happen is another set of nobles will pop up currying our favor if we only let them gather the salt. If he wants to hold on to his kingdom he needs to let them sell salt, and we are the only ones in town capable of exporting it to the wider Mediterranean. The long and short of it is either he allows the salt to be mined, or WE allow the salt to be mined. Either way if he just sits on his hands the salt gets mined.
- Location
- Meycauayan, Bulacan, Philippines
...but aren't we already de-facto mercantilistic? This is a nine-point list by an Austrian mercantilist.
...ok. Not quite mercantilistic. But we're checking a lot of boxes on this 9 point list. I want the process of getting to Laissez-Faire happen ASAP because...mercantilism eventually brought the countries that stuck to it to ruin.
Edit: Another pro is that we aren't spending money to protect the saltern 24/7, the Dauni are. If we do, that means Ekdromoi guarding the site since they, the cavalry and the rowers are our only full time soldiers.
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- Location
- Germany
Being the one who owns the salt mines and sells it is even more so. We wouldn't have to depend on the Dauni to produce it for us if we are the ones doing it.
Even then that's all pretty much besides the point, the Dauni are and will remain a enemy of Eretriaeven with a peace deal. That we come to war with them is and I've said it alot now inevitable.
I just don't understand why people seem to want peace with the Dauni so much. As long as they remain there they will always be a threat we will need to keep an eye on, I could even understand people pushing for peace so hard if we were some pacifists but we are not and I sure hope such ideals are kept far away from this quest. Not everything is solvable by diplomacy, which is a weird thing for me to say since most of my favourite RP Characters in games and quests have been hardcore politicians or schemers
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- Location
- Germany
We wouldn't have to stick with such a system forever, or even at all. But we do need atleast one source of trade goods we have monopoly over for now atleast and salt is a pretty damn good option.
- Location
- Meycauayan, Bulacan, Philippines
Byssos Cloth. That's our monopolized trade good right now.