I don't believe any of that is true, though.

I mean, if we were going the pseudo-Roman route of a land-based polity that gets the core of its strength from heavily armed warrior-farmer citizens and thus has to constantly expand by conquering and enslaving new populations and giving their land to citizens, yes, we'd "need" their resources and land, and yes we'd "have to" go to war with them because their culture, religion, and government are different. And we'd even "have to" go to war because war with the Dauni is inevitable, which is a circular argument if ever I heard one. :p

But, uh... most of the thread isn't actually that interested in following that route.

Control of the salt pans is strong no matter what strategy we pursue, though. It is a rich source of revenue in itself, it turns farmers and fishermen into economic actors who have a long-term product to sell, and harmonizes well with both trade with the interior and bulk commodity exports. A period of peace during which we very literally trade away our advantages over the Dauni does not seem like a peace that works in our favor.

EDIT: @Professor Vesca, undisputed control over the salt marsh is pretty much the only thing the Dauni have that we want. That said, for the reasons above, I think we want it a lot.
 
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Control of the salt pans is strong no matter what strategy we pursue, though. It is a rich source of revenue in itself, it turns farmers and fishermen into economic actors who have a long-term product to sell, and harmonizes well with both trade with the interior and bulk commodity exports. A period of peace during which we very literally trade away our advantages over the Dauni does not seem like a peace that works in our favor.

EDIT: @Professor Vesca, undisputed control over the salt marsh is pretty much the only thing the Dauni have that we want. That said, for the reasons above, I think we want it a lot.
Maybe but now is the absolute worst possible time to try to seize it. Not when we could potentially see conflict with Taras spark, or Alkibiades running around meddling in our affairs, or an Athens FREEDOM fleet paying us a visit to show how FRIENDLY they are to all their FRIENDS.

If we march on the Dauni, I would rather we have a free hand to do as we please, when we please it, then worrying about if/when the Athenian liberation fleet shows up to liberate all our silver from our cruel and confining treasuries.
 
Maybe but now is the absolute worst possible time to try to seize it. Not when we could potentially see conflict with Taras spark, or Alkibiades running around meddling in our affairs, or an Athens FREEDOM fleet paying us a visit to show how FRIENDLY they are to all their FRIENDS.

It's why accepting the deal with Athens is such a bad idea in the first place.
 
It's why accepting the deal with Athens is such a bad idea in the first place.
I know, I am voting for it because no matter which way we go, it is damned if you do, damned if you dont. Right now, no one can defeat the Athenian fleet, and we are no Syracuse with all of Sicily behind them. If they sail, we are potentially done for. I am not sure what Alkibiades game is, and that scares me.

It is why I hope the vote fails, because I do not wish to be drawn into the games Hellenes play. I would rather keep to ourselves and just sell grain. But I will still vote for it because as much as I want to be friends with Taras, I fear the Athenians and their ships more. Taras cannot kill us. Athens just might be able to.
 
I know, I am voting for it because no matter which way we go, it is damned if you do, damned if you dont. Right now, no one can defeat the Athenian fleet, and we are no Syracuse with all of Sicily behind them. If they sail, we are potentially done for. I am not sure what Alkibiades game is, and that scares me.

It is why I hope the vote fails, because I do not wish to be drawn into the games Hellenes play. I would rather keep to ourselves and just sell grain. But I will still vote for it because as much as I want to be friends with Taras, I fear the Athenians and their ships more. Taras cannot kill us. Athens just might be able to.

Taras may not kill us but the almost titanic hit to our reputation on a diplomatic level surely may, let's not forget Eretria made a "sacred" pact with Taras. Not even that long ago, we break it now of all times we can kiss any chance of other Hellenese factions trusting our word in the futre goodbye. Also with ongoing war Athens can't very well send a fleet to Italia just to deal with Eretria that doesn't seem practical at all, I mentioned this before but it would also be a good way for them to drive the Eretrians into the arms of Sparta. Something Athens cleary doesnt want to happen if they are trying to force our hand into signing that pact with them in the first place.
 
Also with ongoing war Athens can't very well send a fleet to Italia just to deal with Eretria that doesn't seem practical at all, I mentioned this before but it would also be a good way for them to drive the Eretrians into the arms of Sparta. Something Athens cleary doesnt want to happen if they are trying to force our hand into signing that pact with them in the first place.
They went on the Sicilian Expedition on the premise of injection of cash OTL, and that went against a far scarier Syrakousai than ever existed in our timeline, a greater distance away than Eretria and in the context of a mostly Sparta-aligned Italy.

They don't even need to make a landing against Eretria to do us greivous harm, acting as pirates on our trade could destroy something like almost third of our income and our various weak colonies could very easily be forced into tributary members of the Delian League by a superior naval force since they haven't had the time to build up good defenses or hoplites for the most part. Our navy is just outclassed against Athens, and if we can't make effective use of it we can't really do much to strike against them except for discontinuing grain... and as the update says, if we reject their friendship they'll likely be swapping over to Hellespontine grain to reduce their reliance on a suddenly unreliable appearing partner.

In an increasingly "with us or against us" world, rejecting friendship with Athens and followups to try to preserve neutrality could very easily be interpreted as siding with the Spartans- particularly when it's done to preserve relations with Taras, a supporter of the Spartans.
 
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Control of the salt pans is strong no matter what strategy we pursue, though.
I mean, it's desirable. I'm not saying the Dauni have nothing of value to us.

I'm saying that control of Lake Salapia isn't somehow vital to the continued welfare of Eretria under all circumstances. We don't actually have to seize and conquer every valuable resource surrounding our territory to be a successful polis.
 
If Athens does comes at us...can we count on all our allies in Sicily and Italia and a Carthage that doesn't want Athenian expansion in its direction? A united front of Italia, Sicily and Carthage, if you will.

What's the verdict on that @Cetashwayo?
 
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I mean, it's desirable. I'm not saying the Dauni have nothing of value to us.

I'm saying that control of Lake Salapia isn't somehow vital to the continued welfare of Eretria under all circumstances. We don't actually have to seize and conquer every valuable resource surrounding our territory to be a successful polis.

As I see it:

* Lake Salapia is more valuable than whatever Athens has to offer us.
* Lake Salapia is both more valuable, and less contested, than whatever we will get out of the Mesapii mess.

Given that, I think it makes the most sense to focus on the highest-value target as a matter of policy.
 
I see.

Taras better be grateful and help us should things fall apart then. And I hope Italia and Sicily helps us with a united front if they don't want Athens.

If an Athenian invasion were to occur you'd likely know beforehand and would have options to attempt to leverage allies against them. This would not make the situation any less dire.
 
They went on the Sicilian Expedition on the premise of injection of cash OTL, and that went against a far scarier Syrakousai than ever existed in our timeline, a greater distance away than Eretria and in the context of a mostly Sparta-aligned Italy.

They don't even need to make a landing against Eretria to do us greivous harm, acting as pirates on our trade could destroy something like almost third of our income and our various weak colonies could very easily be forced into tributary members of the Delian League by a superior naval force since they haven't had the time to build up good defenses or hoplites for the most part. Our navy is just outclassed against Athens, and if we can't make effective use of it we can't really do much to strike against them except for discontinuing grain... and as the update says, if we reject their friendship they'll likely be swapping over to Hellespontine grain to reduce their reliance on a suddenly unreliable appearing partner.

In an increasingly "with us or against us" world, rejecting friendship with Athens and followups to try to preserve neutrality could very easily be interpreted as siding with the Spartans- particularly when it's done to preserve relations with Taras, a supporter of the Spartans.
Why waste resources wrecking our trade when they can just switch over to getting grain from the Bosphorus? Plus we've got a relatively alright rep among most Hellenes. Them attacking us would look bad abroad and domestically.
 
Why waste resources wrecking our trade when they can just switch over to getting grain from the Bosphorus? Plus we've got a relatively alright rep among most Hellenes. Them attacking us would look bad abroad and domestically.

Would the reputation hit be worse if we continue selling Athens grain at a discount even while Athens is badmouthing us, so we look like the more mature person in the dispute?
 
Why waste resources wrecking our trade when they can just switch over to getting grain from the Bosphorus? Plus we've got a relatively alright rep among most Hellenes. Them attacking us would look bad abroad and domestically.

While there are many considerations which may impair Athenai's movements and prevent a war, they don't really care about looking bad. They opened the Peloponnesian War by planning to deliberately wipe out the entire economy of a neighboring city (Megara) to provoke a war and punish them for defecting to the Peloponnesian League following the last war. When Athenai invaded Sicily they pressed other poleis in the region into becoming tributaries; the tribute lists include Thurii during this period.

It would hurt their reputation, but whether the Athenians would recognize that is a different story..
 
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I see.

Taras better be grateful and help us should things fall apart then. And I hope Italia and Sicily helps us with a united front if they don't want Athens.
What would they actually do against Athens? We're the most competent naval power in Italy & Sicily, but we're utterly dwarfed by the skilled Athenians. It doesn't matter if we have a lot of hoplites on our side if they can't actually get to Hellas without being sunk- and it would be an easy thing for Athens to use Kerkyra as a base to strike north into the Adriatic at will. Generously assuming that the Italiotes and Sikeliotes would most all tag along and have the will and budget to support a siege way overseas against Athens, that state can import grain at will due to its strong, long walls that include a mighty port, which has frustrated the efforts of the much nearer and more capable land forces of Sparta's alliance for years.

Athens can easily help us against Taras should our relations with them be set on the path to destruction, but the reverse is not so true.
 
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What would they actually do against Athens? We're the most competent naval power in Italy & Sicily, but we're utterly dwarfed by the skilled Athenians. It doesn't matter if we have a lot of hoplites on our side if they can't actually get to Hellas without being sunk- and it would be an easy thing for Athens to use Kerkyra as a base to strike north into the Adriatic at will. Generously assuming that the Italiotes and Sikeliotes would most all tag along and have the will and budget to support a siege way overseas against Athens, that state can import grain at will due to its strong, long walls that include a might and powerful port, which has frustrated the efforts of the much nearer and more capable land forces of Sparta's alliance for years.

Athens can easily help us against Taras should our relations with them be set on the path to destruction, but the reverse is not so true.

Even if that's the case the question remains, do we even want to tie ourselfs so clsoely to the Athenians?
We know what they are like, we know that they probaly will want Eretria to answer to Athens. Neutrality is the best course we should take but we can't be neutral forever as events show us. Perhaps siding with Sparta or even another western Greek state isn't that bad of an idea. I for one would rather not have us involved in the Peloponnesian war so soon, especialy not while we have still so many unresolved issues in Italy.
 
Even if that's the case the question remains, do we even want to tie ourselfs so clsoely to the Athenians?
We know what they are like, we know that they probaly will want Eretria to answer to Athens. Neutrality is the best course we should take but we can't be neutral forever as events show us. Perhaps siding with Sparta or even another western Greek state isn't that bad of an idea. I for one would rather not have us involved in the Peloponnesian war so soon, especialy not while we have still so many unresolved issues in Italy.
Absolutely yes I want to ties ourselves closely to Athens! I have always thought it was a waste to not pick the Drakonid faction with allying Athens and making a foe of Korinthos. Athens and Korinthos are the number one threats to our Adriatic territory. Taking the Athenians up is a huge boost to our substantial trade with them, providing extra income to get us back in the black or able to afford more or grander projects.

If Athens decides against us as we stand right now, we are screwed. We will be less screwed if we gain good rapport with them that makes their citizens outraged at attempts to harm us (see how beloved Obander was among the common people for the grain trade) or more willing to focus on other priorities, and simultaneously use the silver income to build up a more competitive navy.

Furthermore I see the Peloponnesian war as an opportunity. Korinthos, the main naval power of the Spartan coalition, is terrified to row out of their harbors due to the Athenians. This is the perfect opportunity to dismantle their trade network (ex. reinstalling those democrats we decided to shelter right at the start) and bolster our own while acting under Athen's aegis and approval. Furthermore, the Athenians seem to have more elements in their favor such as their Sicilian diplomacy having gone great/Syrakousai being weak and probably averting their Sicilian Expedition disaster.

To pledge against them when they are so capable of harming us is to me a terrible idea. We should build strength in the meantime and bide our time, as it stands now they could readily dismantle our hard-won sea-based league and add it to their own tributary network with ease.
 
Absolutely yes I want to ties ourselves closely to Athens! I have always thought it was a waste to not pick the Drakonid faction with allying Athens and making a foe of Korinthos. Athens and Korinthos are the number one threats to our Adriatic territory. Taking the Athenians up is a huge boost to our substantial trade with them, providing extra income to get us back in the black or able to afford more or grander projects.

If Athens decides against us as we stand right now, we are screwed. We will be less screwed if we gain good rapport with them that makes their citizens outraged at attempts to harm us (see how beloved Obander was among the common people for the grain trade) or more willing to focus on other priorities, and simultaneously use the silver income to build up a more competitive navy.

Furthermore I see the Peloponnesian war as an opportunity. Korinthos, the main naval power of the Spartan coalition, is terrified to row out of their harbors due to the Athenians. This is the perfect opportunity to dismantle their trade network (ex. reinstalling those democrats we decided to shelter right at the start) and bolster our own while acting under Athen's aegis and approval. Furthermore, the Athenians seem to have more elements in their favor such as their Sicilian diplomacy having gone great/Syrakousai being weak and probably averting their Sicilian Expedition disaster.

To pledge against them when they are so capable of harming us is to me a terrible idea. We should build strength in the meantime and bide our time, as it stands now they could readily dismantle our hard-won sea-based league and add it to their own tributary network with ease.

We wouldn't be going against them merely not openly saying that we are siding with them which is what they want, probaly to force us into a conflict with Taras anew who supports Sparta, I mean they clearly are attempting to force our hand here. They know they could kill our trade with their supperior naval force. However, as it stands Athen's probaly couldn't openly try and act against us since their citizens as you say are clearly happy with Eretrian grain shipment not to mention again that, that would open the door for Athen's enemies to get closer to Eretria. They could go to other sources for their food supply sure, but to hash out such an agreement would take time, maybe enough time for us to quietly get in contact with Korinthos to maybe hash out a mutualy satisfacotry agreement of aide in naval matters against Athens.

Because fact is, we shouldn't want or allow any of the eastern greek states to get a foothold in the west its why the agreement with the othern Italian-Greek cities was made to begin with. Being a puppet to Athens is worse then maybe getting into conflict with them.
 
Alright, you've convinced me. New vote.

About breaking large cultural blocks, Balkans are example of breaking cultural block and see how integration and stability are progressing there.

Also think about it, would hellenisation of Messapi really be faster with cultural centre under Arthias control, King who is Hellenised and under whos rule hellenisation spread over the Messappii, or it would be faster under control of nobility who is said not to be as hellenised to much.

There is also fact that divide and rule doesn't do well with cultural assimilation, or spread of the cculture because it is easier for new things to spread over united entity without barriers.

There is also a fact to consider that as i said before this rebellion isn't created because of Messapi nobility, it's created because of Eretrian laws and the lack of insight on how do those laws affect the vassals. Which means that we will need to reform in the future and create said oversight, but that may be the problem since we will obviously have to work with nobility that rose up against centralisation already and with pretext of us already allowing Messapi to secede, which will be pretext other vassals will point at.

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One more thing we need to think about, we seek to spread divine marriage over our Leauge and quite hopefully over the hellens, by allowing Hyria it's autonomy we are literally shooting that process in the foot when it comes to our vassals because Hyria is against it and as it is cultural centre we would see reversal of spread of divine marriage across Messapi and our vassals.
 
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We wouldn't be going against them merely not openly saying that we are siding with them which is what they want, probaly to force us into a conflict with Taras anew who supports Sparta, I mean they clearly are attempting to force our hand here. They know they could kill our trade with their supperior naval force. However, as it stands Athen's probaly couldn't openly try and act against us since their citizens as you say are clearly happy with Eretrian grain shipment not to mention again that, that would open the door for Athen's enemies to get closer to Eretria. They could go to other sources for their food supply sure, but to hash out such an agreement would take time, maybe enough time for us to quietly get in contact with Korinthos to maybe hash out a mutualy satisfacotry agreement of aide in naval matters against Athens.

Because fact is, we shouldn't want or allow any of the eastern greek states to get a foothold in the west its why the agreement with the othern Italian-Greek cities was made to begin with. Being a puppet to Athens is worse then maybe getting into conflict with them.
Rejecting them leads them to getting their grain elsewhere, and signals that we value Sparta-supporting Taras over Athens. When the grain trade evaporates and the generous friendship of Athens is rejected, so goes the goodwill. All of a sudden, Eretria becomes an unknown; whose side will they come down on, should it come to it? You suggest maybe piling onto Athens with Sparta to preserve balance of power, and that's precisely what they could not tolerate. This makes them far more likely to take hostile action down the road against us, if their citizens are not as fond of us, they are relying more so on the Hellespontine grain, see us cozying up to the Spartan side of the spectrum and aren't sure where we'll fall. Athens will take action to secure its needs; I'd rather be paid for it than have them decide to risk taking it, especially when their payment can be used to make us a tougher nut to crack. Also, should they shift their vital trade away (again, a third of our routes) that cuts down on what we can build and maintain in defense.

A deal with Korinthos seems foolish. They have their inclinations towards reclaiming our new league members and seizing Adriatic trade, and would have no reason not to turn on us even in the unlikely event that Athens is overcome because they vastly outpower us, we have bad history and they want what we have. Only Athen's efforts have shielded us from them; what do you think would protect us if Athens falls? If it's friendship from a common victory, I don't see why you would trust that of Korinthos any more than Athens considering our histories.

We're not on Athens tier. It's OK to suck up to a big power, so long as you stay mindful and find a way to benefit. We can use that stacks of silver from enhanced trade to make ourselves more powerful; we could more easily backstab them later should we feel it warranted to do so because our league will be more developed, populated and prosperous (time is our ally as a settler state), our ships are raising in number and I find it likely that an arrogant Athens would bite of more than it could chew in struggle against Persia or something. Plus they run risk of more revolts, as they grow larger there are more opportunities to get bogged down in various cities deciding they've had enough and revolting while our lighter touch is not as prone to suffer like that in our own league.

I think that rejecting Athens for the principle of it to "not be a puppet" will lessen our capabilities and dampen our long-term growth. The trade wealth (again, Athens is a third of our trade and half the luxury items) can easily shift away as threatened in the update and leave us able to buy less and afford to maintain less of a navy. Please let's not shoot ourselves in the foot to make a statement that we can't yet back up.

I can't continue to back up my argument because I've got to work all day starting in a few hours but this vote really gets at the heart of my desires in this quest. I encourage anyone reading this to please consider voting for the Athenian friendship; we have laid so much groundwork for a fine Adriatic empire, and to go against Athens risks it mightily and harms our coffers.
 
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Rejecting them leads them to getting their grain elsewhere, and signals that we value Sparta-supporting Taras over Athens. When the grain trade evaporates and the generous friendship of Athens is rejected, so goes the goodwill. All of a sudden, Eretria becomes an unknown; whose side will they come down on, should it come to it? You suggest maybe piling onto Athens with Sparta to preserve balance of power, and that's precisely what they could not tolerate. This makes them far more likely to take hostile action down the road against us, if their citizens are not as fond of us, they are relying more so on the Hellespontine grain, see us cozying up to the Spartan side of the spectrum and aren't sure where we'll fall. Athens will take action to secure its needs; I'd rather be paid for it than have them decide to risk taking it, especially when their payment can be used to make us a tougher nut to crack. Also, should they shift their vital trade away (again, a third of our routes) that cuts down on what we can build and maintain in defense.

A deal with Korinthos seems foolish. They have their inclinations towards reclaiming our new league members and seizing Adriatic trade, and would have no reason not to turn on us even in the unlikely event that Athens is overcome because they vastly outpower us, we have bad history and they want what we have. Only Athen's efforts have shielded us from them; what do you think would protect us if Athens falls? If it's friendship from a common victory, I don't see why you would trust that of Korinthos any more than Athens considering our histories.

We're not on Athens tier. It's OK to suck up to a big power, so long as you stay mindful and find a way to benefit. We can use that stacks of silver from enhanced trade to make ourselves more powerful; we could more easily backstab them later should we feel it warranted to do so because our league will be more developed, populated and prosperous (time is our ally as a settler state), our ships are raising in number and I find it likely that an arrogant Athens would bite of more than it could chew in struggle against Persia or something. Plus they run risk of more revolts, as they grow larger there are more opportunities to get bogged down in various cities deciding they've had enough and revolting while our lighter touch is not as prone to suffer like that in our own league.

I think that rejecting Athens for the principle of it to "not be a puppet" will lessen our capabilities and dampen our long-term growth. The trade wealth (again, Athens is a third of our trade and half the luxury items) can easily shift away as threatened in the update and leave us able to buy less and afford to maintain less of a navy. Please let's not shoot ourselves in the foot to make a statement that we can't yet back up.


We'd loose some trade with Athens which we could potentialy get back even more so with access to the Salt in Dauni lands, open up new trade routes even with other states or factions which are not dependant on Athens goodwill to Eretria perhaps. Yes I agree that we would benefit a lot from a continued and more open and friendly stance towards Athens. Only the cost for those benefits would be our diplomatic reputation which already is pretty low one might say due to the Taras situation, now we would again go back on our word AND a 'sacred' agreement with them to boot. You seem to be focusing only on the short term benefits which we could potentialy gain from closer ties with Athens which even then are not actualy set in stone and completely forget about all the repurcuissions it will have should we do so.

Damned if we do, damned if we don't does sum it up pretty good. Only that the consequences of not doing it shouldn't be as high as those if we do.
 
Dareios: "It's sad to see people demonize the Athenians so, but it's even more tragic to hear some people talk about how we should side with the tyrannical Spartans or the Korintians, our principal rivals in the Adriatic, against the Athenians, who so far have been nothing but friendly to us. Athens, behold the gratitude Eretria gives to its friends! Nothing more than a spat in their face and a stab in their back."
 
[X] [Hyria] Grant Hyria autonomy and Artahias allyship [+5,500 freemen providing tributes and levies including heavier infantry, Artahias becomes a loyal Eretrian ally rather than vassal].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Peace [Eretria and the Dauni will cease hostility, open trade to one another, and stop plotting against one another].
[X] [Athenai] Accept the Athenian treaty [Athenai will be grateful, Taras will be disturbed, Eretrian grain trade will grow faster in the future].


We chose expansion into the Adriatic over expansion into the Dauni, and trying to switch tracks now leaves us terribly vulnerable. If the Dauni fuck us in the future? So be it. That'll be the time to grab those salt flats. Otherwise, we have lots of expanding to do at sea.
 
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