Being the one who owns the salt mines and sells it is even more so. We wouldn't have to depend on the Dauni to produce it for us if we are the ones doing it.
Even then that's all pretty much besides the point, the Dauni are and will remain a enemy of Eretriaeven with a peace deal. That we come to war with them is and I've said it alot now inevitable.

I just don't understand why people seem to want peace with the Dauni so much. As long as they remain there they will always be a threat we will need to keep an eye on, I could even understand people pushing for peace so hard if we were some pacifists but we are not and I sure hope such ideals are kept far away from this quest. Not everything is solvable by diplomacy, which is a weird thing for me to say since most of my favourite RP Characters in games and quests have been hardcore politicians or schemers :p
Peace is lucrative. We have found we made more trading then we do fighting. If the Dauni cause trouble again and give us a reason to invade we can just take Salapia and Herdonia.
 
Peace is lucrative. We have found we made more trading then we do fighting. If the Dauni cause trouble again and give us a reason to invade we can just take Salapia and Herdonia.

Right now we could, sure..in the future who knows. Give them time to unify and grow in strength enough and we probaly won't without truly suffering some heavy casualities. Look, let's just not once again delay the Dauni problem and actualy take care of it while we can.
 
[x] [Hyria] Allow Artahias to subjugate Hyria [+10,900 freemen providing tribute and levies, Hyrian revolt is crushed and Artahias becomes an Eretrian vassal just as the Peuketii].

Allow the Messapii to deal with their own. The great weakness of them as a vassal is their disunity, and I do not feel inclined to encourage these divisions.

[x] [Dauni] The Path of Peace [Eretria and the Dauni will cease hostility, open trade to one another, and stop plotting against one another].

There are those who do not trust the Dauni with peace. This is sensible, as they are a treacherous and warlike sort. Let them damn themselves by destroying the peace they created, for when they do, the gods will be on our side.

[x] [Athenai] Refuse the Treaty [Taras will be extremely grateful, Athenai will be unhappy, Eretrian grain trade may be superseded in favor of the Bosporos].

The unhappiness of the Athenians will fade quickly. The gratitude of Taras will last lifetimes.
 
Right now we could, sure..in the future who knows. Give them time to unify and grow in strength enough and we probaly won't without truly suffering some heavy casualities. Look, let's just not once again delay the Dauni problem and actualy take care of it while we can.

The nearest equivalent of our situation with the Dauni is Ethiopia and Eretria. With us as Ethiopia and Eretria (Africa's North Korea and Sparta analogue) as the Dauni.

Do you see Ethiopia poking Eritrea nowadays after the Ethiopian Eritrean War? Even if Eritrea is the only route Ethiopia has to the Red Sea?

No. They had a settlement. And both sides are abiding by it.
 
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The nearest equivalent of our situation with the Dauni is Ethiopia and Eretria. With us as Ethiopia and Eretria (Africa's North Korea) as the Dauni.

Do you see Ethiopia poking Eritrea nowadays after the Ethiopian Eritrean War? Even if Eritrea is the only route Ethiopia has to the Red Sea?

No. They had a settlement. And both sides are abiding by it.

So because that certain situation worked in modern age because let's face it, today's age is not even a little bit as harsh as anciet times we should consider doing the same. With a war-like people like the Dauni who have to moral or even religious reasson to abide by such an agreement?

In most cases what works today wouldn't have ever worked or even worked as good as they would today in ancient times. That's something some may not even consider sometimes but ultimately it's not a valid argument.

Edit: But thanks for the link, it's actualy a interesting read. :)
 
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The unhappiness of the Athenians will fade quickly. The gratitude of Taras will last lifetimes.
Dareios: "Gratitude is a sickness suffered by dogs. Thank Apollo it is not a disease we Greeks suffer from! Do not think for a moment that Taras will not stab us in the back as soon as they think it is both convenient and profitable for them! Past relations mean nothing, only future chances at more power, glory and wealth!"
 
So because that certain situation worked in modern age because let's face it, today's age is not even a little bit as harsh as anciet times we should consider doing the same. With a war-like people like the Dauni who have to moral or even religious reasson to abide by such an agreement?

In most cases what works today wouldn't have ever worked or even worked as good as they would today in ancient times. That's something some may not even consider sometimes but ultimately it's not a valid argument.

Edit: But thanks for the link, it's actualy a interesting read. :)

They will have financial and realpolitik incentive once trade starts.

Really, cash, food and realpolitik should still be as effective then as it is now.

Edit: Maybe I should use "Gnedios Politika" for realpolitik, in accordance with our roleplaying as Ancient Greeks?
 
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They will have financial and realpolitik incentive once trade starts.

Really, cash, food and realpolitik should still be as effective then as it is now.

Take into consideration geopolitics then, the Dauni share borders with Eretria, a long time enemy of theirs whose culture religion and society is completly different from their own. Even if we end up in a peace deal with the Dauni that lasts a decade or more eventualy they will have at that point grown in number, their armies perhaps better equiped and trained with the silver we pay them for the salt, maybe even a build up of their own fleet with that same silver. It would only be a matter of time before the Dauni and Eretria come to blows and until we finish them of it will keep repeating itself.

Money talks, sure I give you that but it's not enough to keep an enemy of yours at bay forever. While believing we can solve every problem with have with nice gestures, peace, money and diplomacy is all well and good it just doesn't work. Not long term atleast.
 
Take into consideration geopolitics then, the Dauni share borders with Eretria, a long time enemy of theirs whose culture religion and society is completly different from their own. Even if we end up in a peace deal with the Dauni that lasts a decade or more eventualy they will have at that point grown in number, their armies perhaps better equiped and trained with the silver we pay them for the salt, maybe even a build up of their own fleet with that same silver. It would only be a matter of time before the Dauni and Eretria come to blows and until we finish them of it will keep repeating itself.

Money talks, sure I give you that but it's not enough to keep an enemy of yours at bay forever. While believing we can solve every problem with have with nice gestures, peace, money and diplomacy is all well and good it just doesn't work. Not long term atleast.

1. We do not need "forever", we need enough to digest Peukettii and Messapii, latter still not being proper vassal. Give them time to get use to our rule, then go consume more.
2. War with Dauni will not be cheap; I doubt any income we can get from salt is going to pay for the war in any reasonable timeframe (reasonable being, idk, less than two generations?). We are going to lose many good men, and a lot of time, chasing them amidst them burning their crops to fuck with us. Any victory is going to be at least somewhat pyrrhic, at least economically, if they are even half as determined as the messenger said they are.
3. We need to secure Ankon and Illyrian colony from locals. Those take time and actions.
4. We need colony in !Venice. Oh, that's actually a point which sort of is important: we are not going to directly produce amber, but we are still going to profit massively from merely being the middle-men. Same likely can apply to salt.
 
..But...why!?

It's not worth it, they would control the source of our Salt trade which is something they could hold as leverage over us in the long run. Why bother with all of this if again I point out. You can..you know..just take it and cut out the middle man?..Maximize profits and have a monopoly on the salt in that region?..You know, the easier and defiently smarter thing to do.
The amount of leverage they would actually have is pretty small, because they're so weak relative to us. We're a trading hub, they're not. We've got a huge army and several vassals, they don't. We've got a navy, they've barely got a coastline. The Dauni have one card to play, and that is to make invading their land more trouble than it's worth. Everything else is a nonstarter, because it would hurt them more than it hurts us.

It's a pretty good card, especially when we've got so much else on our plate, but it'll lose its value real fast if the Dauni actively start trying to hurt us. As long as the Dauni recognize that, I expect that they won't be much trouble.
The unhappiness of the Athenians will fade quickly. The gratitude of Taras will last lifetimes.
There is no guarantee of this. Or of the reverse, for that matter.
 
The amount of leverage they would actually have is pretty small, because they're so weak relative to us. We're a trading hub, they're not. We've got a huge army and several vassals, they don't. We've got a navy, they've barely got a coastline. The Dauni have one card to play, and that is to make invading their land more trouble than it's worth. Everything else is a nonstarter, because it would hurt them more than it hurts us.

It's a pretty good card, especially when we've got so much else on our plate, but it'll lose its value real fast if the Dauni actively start trying to hurt us. As long as the Dauni recognize that, I expect that they won't be much trouble.

Yep. The Dauni are basically doing a North Korea on us. We ought to...well, not South Korea or Japan or America...Russia. We ought to be the Russia to the Dauni North Korea.
 
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When we went for many vassals we had problems with the Peuketti and switched to one strong vassal. now we have problems with the Messappi when we try for one strong vassal and are thinking of switching to many weak vassals and releasing our puppet king to ally status. We need to decide which policy we want to follow whether it's a few strong vassals or many weak ones as all this flip flopping around isn't helping us.
 
When we went for many vassals we had problems with the Peuketti and switched to one strong vassal. now we have problems with the Messappi when we try for one strong vassal and are thinking of switching to many weak vassals and releasing our puppet king to ally status. We need to decide which policy we want to follow whether it's a few strong vassals or many weak ones as all this flip flopping around isn't helping us.
No, we are taking things on a case by case basis. There will never be a one size fits all solution to these things. The Messappii are not the Peuketii, and the Peuketii are not the Messappii. There are different problems with each, they both came under us in different ways. The same would be true with the Daunii who are so densely populated we would have no choice but to split them up. Assuming that we need to 'figure out what policy to follow' doesnt follow because no two factions are the same.

Maybe if people were constantly coming under our overlordship via conquest over and over we could have a consistent policy. But we are not engineering similar circumstances by which other factions come under our hegemony. Its mostly watching our neighbors and waiting for opportunities. This means that each opportunity is different and thus will have different obstacles to overcome.

For example, none of the Peuketii cities revolted against their king and appealed to us. Unlike Artahias, the Peuketii dont have this particular problem and so might not require this particular solution.
 
I would advise against accepting Athenian offer, yes we will gain more money and what some consider to be more leverage on Athens as exporter of Grain to them,but what kind of leverage we have if Athens can always turn towards bosphorus if they feel like it.

But let's see what we will loose, QM himself confirmed that Taras would be ready to embark towards closer relationship with Eretria so alliance with Taras would be possible followed by them joining our league, which would make our goal of Italian Leauge closer to reality.

On other hand Athens won't instantly cut all its ties to us, they will be offended but they will not attack us over it and will continue to have good relationship with us.

Basically any deal with Athens is with temporary gains for us, but at the price of prestige and political loss in Italy as Leauge that we wish for would be out of our grasp.
If we become the Athenian main source for grain they certainly can't simply turn to the Bosphorus whenever they like it. Establishing such massive trade-routes takes time and effort and isn't something easily done.

And why exactly do you think that we would be able to mollify Athens but not Taras? I mean sure our southern neighbour will be unhappy about that declartation of friendship, though I think it is important to remember that while we may go against the spirit of our agreement we keep to the letter of it, but just as we should be able to hopefully to negate the negative effects of rejecting the treaty we should be able to negate the effects of accepting it as well.

Also I think it is a bit overdramatic to act like this treaty would bind us to Athens, sure Alkibades might have devious plans and Sparta and Co won't be that happy but it would be a first step in getting involved in the conflict and nothing more. There are almost certainly to be opportunities to draw back, especially if another faction in either Eretria or Athens takes power. And honestly if Sparta doesn't want us to join Athens it is time they start to bribe convince us, I mean what good is being a neutral and important power in a war if you don't get sucked up by both powers?


And I would argue that accepting such a treaty doesn't necessarily damage our prestige or political influence, indeed while it might hurt our trustworthiness to some degree having a positive relationship and hopefully the support of Athens behind us should if anything further our influence and reach. Especially with those poleis who are also favourably inclined towards Athens like Thurii.

And while I personally would have nothing against Taras joining our league in some manner (though I don't see that happening anytime soon and without major reforms on both sides considering how unwilling most greeks are to give up their independence) I would however argue that such an event would make an Italian League, at least one that includes us, less likely instead. The most likely reaction to such a powerful faction forming would be for cities like Thurii, Metapontion and Co to form their own alliance to oppose us and Rhegion and in all likelihood reach out to Athens/Sparta or even Sicily for support.

Honestly considering that thanks to our decision to let Rhegion wage war on Lokri the local balance of power got demolished and most of the local powers are more likely to wage war upon each other than anything else I have to say that dreams of an Italian league seem pretty far stretched and I would argue that a closer relationship with Athens is the least of our worries there.

The key to an real Italoite league isn't Taras but Thurii and Metapontion (and if you get ambitious Rhegion), if you get those two to really ally with us or join us in a more permanent political union Taras will have very little chance then to go with it unless it gets massive support from mainland greece/elsewhere.
 
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Plus, I think therewere mentions of the language being an issue and native infantry lacking the espirit de corps of the militia based hoplites as well as as needing the other types of soldiers more. So yeah, I am a bit surprised that we are now suddenly talking about heavy infantry again since the only source I can think of that we would accept with no problem would be the cretan settlers . Though I guess that there is a use for heavy infantry besides the phalanx like we for example see in Alexanders armies and indeed I remember having argued for using native troopsin that regard in the past.

I doubled back and felt it wasn't really appropriate to claim this as I did not feel after further research that there was anything fundamentally special about hoplites that prevented other cultures from using them esp. as writers like Xenophon would not make the distinction between spearmen and hoplites. Etruscans and Romans used hoplites fine, and given these were citizen militia what possible difference could there be to justify hermetically sealing it off?

But the class structure of these societies would inform the kind of levies they would provide.
 
Being the middle man for salt is very lucrative. What are the Dauni going to do, NOT trade salt to us to sell on to others? Sure, if the nobles are content with their king continuously killing them off.
Well yes, that's what they've done.

They destroyed their own salterns, forbid trade with us, then proceeded to butcher the nobility that objected.

They literally just delivered the heads of the pro-trade and pro-salt Faction to us.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say the Dauni will burn their own fields and go total war out of loyalty, then speak about them rebelling for not being able to do the salt trade.
 
I doubled back and felt it wasn't really appropriate to claim this as I did not feel after further research that there was anything fundamentally special about hoplites that prevented other cultures from using them esp. as writers like Xenophon would not make the distinction between spearmen and hoplites. Etruscans and Romans used hoplites fine, and given these were citizen militia what possible difference could there be to justify hermetically sealing it off?

But the class structure of these societies would inform the kind of levies they would provide.

My thinking is that they are heavy spearmen but their equipment is probably distinctly italian. Like, you wouldn't look at Messapii hoplites and confuse them for Greek hoplites.

Their shields probably have more in common with the Scutum than with the Hoplon as an example, and their helmets are open faced with crests.

Well yes, that's what they've done.

They destroyed their own salterns, forbid trade with us, then proceeded to butcher the nobility that objected.

They literally just delivered the heads of the pro-trade and pro-salt Faction to us.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say the Dauni will burn their own fields and go total war out of loyalty, then speak about them rebelling for not being able to do the salt trade.

They delivered the ones they caught, and there is no guarantee that others wont rise up with dreams of salt fairies dancing in their heads.

Its like living next to a field of gold and forbidding anyone from going out and scooping up nuggets. Its not going to happen and the people who live there are going to resent you from restraining them so. Even if you kill the ring leaders, its not just the nobility who would benefit from the salterns. The common folk would have lots of money to make from building the salterns, harvesting and transporting the salt, selling it to their neighbors, and they know it too.

That is why he is bringing us an offer of peace so that he can open up the salterns again and remove the reason for the nobility to rebel. They are probably a constant distraction, and he doesn't have the ability to simply impose his will or raze or relocate the cities away from the marsh. For one, we are right next door and he knows we would jump at a chance to seize the salterns. So he needs Salapia and Herdonia on board if he is going to mount any kind of effective resistance.

The primary reason we were even interested in Salapia and Herdonia as vassals was to get at the salt marshes in the first place.

And I am not saying that the Dauni would go for total war scorch the earth. I am saying that the King can make a war more of a headache then it already is, and that IF we wish to go to war, we should not do so right now. We have an opportunity to remove a distraction and focus on the adriatic, the Messapii, and Athens. We should take it and wait for things to settle before bullying the Dauni around and taking those two cities.
 
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Right now we could, sure..in the future who knows. Give them time to unify and grow in strength enough and we probaly won't without truly suffering some heavy casualities. Look, let's just not once again delay the Dauni problem and actualy take care of it while we can.
Multiple people delayed and delayed and delayed, and now the Dauni are forted up, destroyed our main supporters in their territory and are making demands of us.

Overall, it's both expected for the Peace Faction to continue to demand peace, despite multiple examples that point to the fact its only going to lead to betrayal again and that it won't give us the control of the Salt we really wanted

Because in the ends it feels like a lot of the people see Peace as it's own reward and look to create reasons to take it, without considering war as beneficial despite repeated shows that it is one of the best ways to gain resources, quick money and power in the period
 
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My thinking is that they are heavy spearmen but their equipment is probably distinctly italian. Like, you wouldn't look at Messapii hoplites and confuse them for Greek hoplites.

Their shields probably have more in common with the Scutum than with the Hoplon as an example, and their helmets are open faced with crests.

The Scutum is fourth century equipment. Early Etruscan warriors looked exactly like Hellenes. Neither did Roman spearmen look much different.

Our depictions of 'early' Roman soldiers are in fact after the military reforms of the 4th century which transitioned the Romans and Italians away from the traditional Hoplite way of war. The main difference right now might be in the helmet or the depictions on the shield.
 
[X] [Hyria] Grant Hyria autonomy and Artahias allyship [+5,500 freemen providing tributes and levies including heavier infantry, Artahias becomes a loyal Eretrian ally rather than vassal].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Peace [Eretria and the Dauni will cease hostility, open trade to one another, and stop plotting against one another].
[X] [Athenai] Accept the Athenian treaty [Athenai will be grateful, Taras will be disturbed, Eretrian grain trade will grow faster in the future].
 
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