Two things to consider.

If we grant Hyria autonomy, not only do we gain control of the Messapii cultural center and accelerate its hellenization, but we also gain access to the Messappii Heavy Infantry, whereas if we go with Artahias we just gain yet more light infantry.

In any land conflict, that heavy infantry could be the difference between victory and defeat, not to mention diversifying what troops we have access to in a conflict and thus giving us better options.

@Cetashwayo what heavy infantry do the Hyrians field anyway?
 
Much is made of the disappointment of Taras. Yet this pact of friendship is not a violation of the treaty we have signed. Let us also remember that Taras has not been completely at ease these years. They have made a common friendship with Rhegion, and ended their rivalry with Thurii. They are a growing market and trading partner of the Sikeliote League, who we have grown more distant from. The balance of power within Italia is shifting away from Eretria if we do nothing, and we have no guarantee the peace party will always prevail in the Tarantine elections. We should do somehting about this, but it would be useful for us to cement Athenian goodwill beforehand so we could have a stronger case for other Italiote powers to value our own friendship. If the Tarantines take exception to us exercising our right under our treaty then they are free to make a treaty of trade and friendship with Lakaidomon, that is if the Spartans have anything worth trading for.

Fah! Such mealy-mouthed misrepresentation does not become you Phokion.

This treaty may have been written with evasive words, but it plainly enough breaks the spirit of our agreement with Taras. Further, both the men who have experience negotiating with the Tarantines oppose this treaty, which speaks eloquently enough to me.

And were Athens so liable to smite us for wanting to keep things as they are, I doubt Obander would be recommending against this treaty.

Nor should we blind ourselves to how Athens treats others who have accepted becoming "dear friends and allies".

So says Kleon son of Arisophanes.
 
Don't forget to mention that they are rebelling against Eretria, so "Yay! Let's reward the people who rebelled against Eretria so they don't get recked by Arthaias who we can and currently control just because they have something like a democracy going on"

I get why this vote may seem a good idea but it honestly isn't. Think about what kind of message that sends to our other vassals? This could have some serious long term repercussion.
 
If we grant Hyria autonomy, not only do we gain control of the Messapii cultural center and accelerate its hellenization, but we also gain access to the Messappii Heavy Infantry, whereas if we go with Artahias we just gain yet more light infantry.

In any land conflict, that heavy infantry could be the difference between victory and defeat, not to mention diversifying what troops we have access to in a conflict and thus giving us better options.

Also remember Artahias is apparently upgrading his cavalry.

Still, securing the Messapii culture center as an Eretrian vassal is quite intriguing. But is that actually what the option does, or would Hyria be made an autonomous province of the Messapii kingdom?

fasquardon
 
Also remember Artahias is apparently upgrading his cavalry.

Still, securing the Messapii culture center as an Eretrian vassal is quite intriguing. But is that actually what the option does, or would Hyria be made an autonomous province of the Messapii kingdom?

fasquardon
Hyria would be removed from under Artahias and made a direct vassal of Eretria, along with...

Caelia. With the acquisition of Hyria they would be cut off and would fall naturaly under our suzerainty.

Don't forget to mention that they are rebelling against Eretria, so "Yay! Let's reward the people who rebelled against Eretria so they don't get recked by Arthaias who we can and currently control just because they have something like a democracy going on"

I get why this vote may seem a good idea but it honestly isn't. Think about what kind of message that sends to our other vassals? This could have some serious long term repercussion.

They are rebelling against Artahias and his nobles specifically. They realize the reality of their situation, that to fight Eretria is to court death. So now they appeal to us that we might make them our direct vassals and allow them to actually feed themselves instead of sell all their land to rich nobles for more and more cattle to fuel the cattle drives. Like, this is not the first time we have given people privilege and wealth and reward with the unspoken threat of rebellion and discontent. The freemen of Hyria were literally put up against a wall, the situation we created was untenable and something would have to give.

Even if I did not directly oppress them, I cannot fault a person for rebelling against me when the situation I have created has taken away their livelihood. When a man has nothing left to lose is when he is at his most dangerous.

It is only after they drove away Artahias and his followers that they stopped and realized that now they have something left to lose from further opposition. Thus they approached us in humility. To reward them, to give them something that we can take away from them is not a reward. It is as a golden collar about their necks and shackles of silver about their wrists. It binds them to us, and creates a cost for rebellion.

How much more effective, how much more insidious is the gilded cage that the slave enters into willingly and refuses to leave, than the iron bars into which he must be dragged?

Who knows? The fates are fickle things. Perhaps one day they might learn to speak proper Greek, and we can enter them into the ledger of Greek Polis at our disposal.
 
On the subject of Hyria and the Messapii, I'm against giving Hyria autonomy and making the Messapii an ally rather than vassal. We need to keep our income in the green right now since our extra triremes and Byssos harbor is being renovated and expanded, to lose potential tribute from the Messapii would be foolish in my opinion
 
Hyria would be removed from under Artahias and made a direct vassal of Eretria, along with...

Caelia. With the acquisition of Hyria they would be cut off and would fall naturaly under our suzerainty.



They are rebelling against Artahias and his nobles specifically. They realize the reality of their situation, that to fight Eretria is to court death. So now they appeal to us that we might make them our direct vassals and allow them to actually feed themselves instead of sell all their land to rich nobles for more and more cattle to fuel the cattle drives. Like, this is not the first time we have given people privilege and wealth and reward with the unspoken threat of rebellion and discontent. The freemen of Hyria were literally put up against a wall, the situation we created was untenable and something would have to give.

Even if I did not directly oppress them, I cannot fault a person for rebelling against me when the situation I have created has taken away their livelihood. When a man has nothing left to lose is when he is at his most dangerous.

It is only after they drove away Artahias and his followers that they stopped and realized that now they have something left to lose from further opposition. Thus they approached us in humility. To reward them, to give them something that we can take away from them is not a reward. It is as a golden collar about their necks and shackles of silver about their wrists. It binds them to us, and creates a cost for rebellion.

How much more effective, how much more insidious is the gilded cage that the slave enters into willingly and refuses to leave, than the iron bars into which he must be dragged?

Who knows? The fates are fickle things. Perhaps one day they might learn to speak proper Greek, and we can enter them into the ledger of Greek Polis at our disposal.


Don't get me wrong, the idea of having Hyria directly under Eretria isn't a bad one and I would, would the circumstances be any different push for accepting it but as it stands right now they've rebelled not only against Artahias and the Messapit nobles because of the cattle drive but also against Eretrian rule. Accepting them as our direct vassal without some form of punishment against those who started the rebellion in the first place just isn't worth it long term.

Not when it would mean having the rest of Messapi as allies instead of vassals, vassals we can control and work to integrate in to Eretria as a whole in the long run, either through an open hand in the form of rewards and good will or the sword. We know Artahias is a cunning and ambitious individual, how long would it be until he thought he no longer needs his Eretrian allies and joins our enemies to oppose us? Messapi is too close to Eretria for them to be allowed to rule themselfs.
 
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Don't get me wrong, the idea of having Hyria directly under Eretria isn't a bad one and I would, would the circumstances be any different push for accepting it but as it stands right now they've rebelled not only against Artahias and the Messapit nobles because of the cattle drive but also against Eretrian rule. Accepting them as our direct vassal without some form of punishment against those who started the rebellion in the first place just isn't worth it long term.

Not when it would mean having the rest of Messapi as allies instead of vassals, vassals we can control and work to integrate in to Eretria as a whole in the long run, either through an open hand in the form of rewards and good will or the sword. We know Artahias is a cunning and ambitious individual, how long would it be until he thought he no longer needs his Eretrian allies and joins our enemies to oppose us? Messapi is too close to Eretria for them to be allowed to rule themselfs.
What do the rest of the Messapii contribute that Hyria does not? The city of Hyria is their own large city, and Artahias would remain in control of a handful of small towns of around 1k people or so? Whereas Hyria is a large cultural center. Artahias would be right back in the same position he was when we swooped in and cut Taras off at the pass. If he broke faith with us, the Tarantines are just as likely to march on his few remaining towns as they are to ally with him. He COULD ally with Athens.

But lets look at what that would entail.

He has no ports for Athens to land at. His southern neighbor are generally allied with Sparta and Korinthos and would be enemies of Athens. Any conflict with Athens we would have would involve our navies, not our armies and levies. So if he does try to invite Athenian intervention, either the Tarantines will jump him, WE will jump him, or the Hyrians will jump him as we wont have called them up till the Athenians land or the war ends.

Either way, with no direct access to our enemies/rivals, he would be isolated and alone.

In such a situation, you do not easily spurn your only ally. Artahias is clever and cunning true, but he is in no great situation to demand anything of us that we would not willingly give him. He might be able to threaten us, but if we grant the Hyrians their request, he would have to march through them to get to us. He would have to do this with the Tarantines at his back.

He is in no great position to oppose us with us as his only friend. That is why he has not made demands that he be permitted to subjugate the Hyrians. With the way he has set things up, no matter what we choose he still gains something that he wants. That is the mark of cleverness. But a petty king lording over a few small towns cannot effectively oppose us, and has no easy access to those who can, and are willing to back him.

No amount of cleverness will overcome this extreme power disparity between us. He was already weak enough for us to push around. Without Caelia, Hyria, and Brention? How much weaker will he become? In such a situation, cleverness amounts to much ado about nothing. No amount of wit and ingenuity will create an army out of nothing.
 
What do the rest of the Messapii contribute that Hyria does not? The city of Hyria is their own large city, and Artahias would remain in control of a handful of small towns of around 1k people or so? Whereas Hyria is a large cultural center. Artahias would be right back in the same position he was when we swooped in and cut Taras off at the pass. If he broke faith with us, the Tarantines are just as likely to march on his few remaining towns as they are to ally with him. He COULD ally with Athens.

But lets look at what that would entail.

He has no ports for Athens to land at. His southern neighbor are generally allied with Sparta and Korinthos and would be enemies of Athens. Any conflict with Athens we would have would involve our navies, not our armies and levies. So if he does try to invite Athenian intervention, either the Tarantines will jump him, WE will jump him, or the Hyrians will jump him as we wont have called them up till the Athenians land or the war ends.

Either way, with no direct access to our enemies/rivals, he would be isolated and alone.

In such a situation, you do not easily spurn your only ally. Artahias is clever and cunning true, but he is in no great situation to demand anything of us that we would not willingly give him. He might be able to threaten us, but if we grant the Hyrians their request, he would have to march through them to get to us. He would have to do this with the Tarantines at his back.

He is in no great position to oppose us with us as his only friend. That is why he has not made demands that he be permitted to subjugate the Hyrians. With the way he has set things up, no matter what we choose he still gains something that he wants. That is the mark of cleverness. But a petty king lording over a few small towns cannot effectively oppose us, and has no easy access to those who can, and are willing to back him.

No amount of cleverness will overcome this extreme power disparity between us. He was already weak enough for us to push around. Without Caelia, Hyria, and Brention? How much weaker will he become? In such a situation, cleverness amounts to much ado about nothing. No amount of wit and ingenuity will create an army out of nothing.

Alright then, let's look at it in what your points look like overall and I'm just speculating and thinking way, waaay ahead here.
Option A: He sides with Athens, not something we have to worry about since Athen's grain supplies depend on us and even if we deny their request which I hope we do they are not likely to try and attack us or even work against us in any meaningful way. Not while they are at war with Sparta and her allies considering that would then open up the possibility of Eretria getting closer to Sparta or even them courting us so that we cut our shipment of grain to Athens, that only if Sparta would even bother with Eretria since they don't seem to have that much of a high opinion of us. So not much of a problem for us besides the dip into our wealth from trade.

Option B: Artahias marches against Eretria or Hyria and Tara's swoops in from behind him taking Neriton, Lupiae, etc. Giving Taras more land they control and ultimatly supremacy in the heel, which we definetly want under Eretria in the future so we have a shot to control access to the Ionian See should we even get to a point to build up our fleets enough to contest other powers in the area for it. Not to mention it would also put Taras back on the board as a possible threat to Eretria again. Which is bad, not so much short term but long term.

Option C: We allow Hyria to come under Eretrian rule, Artahias accepts it or atleast seems to do so and when we turn our focus North to combat the Dauni or even the Samnites or Frentani should we at that point already have dealt with the Dauni. Artahias or whoever controls the 'allied' Messapi at that point decides he doen't feel appreciated by his Eretrian allies who have snubbed him not once but twice now, feeling surrounded by Greeks he swoods in from the south to attack us either in a coordinated offensive together with our enemies up north or something he came up with on his own. Worst case scenario.

Having said all that I must admit I may be looking a bit too much ahead here and over thinking things.
 
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I am really torn over the Hyria matter.

I really like the idea of encouraging the spread of a cult of Dionysus the reborn through the Eretrian domain, and Hyria would make a great cult center. Have barbaroi being reborn as members of the Eretrian family...

Going to have to mull this over some more.

fasquardon
 
Don't get me wrong, the idea of having Hyria directly under Eretria isn't a bad one and I would, would the circumstances be any different push for accepting it but as it stands right now they've rebelled not only against Artahias and the Messapit nobles because of the cattle drive but also against Eretrian rule. Accepting them as our direct vassal without some form of punishment against those who started the rebellion in the first place just isn't worth it long term.

Not when it would mean having the rest of Messapi as allies instead of vassals, vassals we can control and work to integrate in to Eretria as a whole in the long run, either through an open hand in the form of rewards and good will or the sword. We know Artahias is a cunning and ambitious individual, how long would it be until he thought he no longer needs his Eretrian allies and joins our enemies to oppose us? Messapi is too close to Eretria for them to be allowed to rule themselfs.

Between Hyria, Brention, and Caelia, that's the majority of the Messapii population; in fact, if my math is right, it's ~70% of the population.

Hyria on it's own is ~5,500 people and the Messapii are <13,750. All of the other cities are roughly of the same size and we know they have <5,000 people based on the map. If we assume (as is likely) they have a roughly equal share of the remaining population, each Messapii cities has a population of 1,000 - 1,500, on average. Assume Bretion and Caelia are average, then we can expect to have 8,250 Messapii vassals compared to Artahias' 5,500. Once you add in the 1,200 additional Kretian Freemen that moved into Brention with the Stayr, then it becomes 9,450 to 5,500; we have nearly twice as many Messapii freemen as Artahias does.

It's likely that there's also going to be a lot of internal migration as well. We know that Artahias is consolidating land and kicking peasants to the curb in order to build up a larger aristocracy and artistocratic cavalry. It's likely many of them will move into the lands directly vassalized by us as opposed to starving under Artahias' rule; land consolidation always involves displaced, starving peasants (look at the process of Enclosure in the UK). Hyria is effectively a revolutionary state that depends on small holding land owners, like earlier Eretria; it's likely they will find space for neighbours and kinsmen fleeing destitution in Artahias' domain. The population growth rate is likely higher among our subordinate Messapii and lower among Artahias', combined with the naturally larger population base and Hyria as a cultural center and Artahias will eventually be eclipsed by our vassals.

Splitting vassals into differentiated lumps is like chewing your food, it makes digestion easier. If Artahias is on the other hand undisputed ruler of the Messapii, it's much easier for him to try and rebel with the Messapii as a whole, either with Tarantine or Athenian support. 10,000 freemen are actually much more frightening under one man than that same number divided up. Leaving the Messapii in one solid, consolidated block means that there's less space for Eretrian culture to act on and influence them; they have a greater internal cultural cachet to resist conversion.

We have to break up large cultural blocks in order to start the process of integration; keeping everyone together in their own little ethnic tribe is not going to lead to a break down of national barriers with Epulia or Eretria. Rome was build great by expanding the definition of 'Roman'. If citizenship truly depended on ethnic status, Rome never would've expanded across Italy; you saw this with the Social Wars, Roman allies and vassals refused to work with Rome unless they could be Roman.

Edit: Considering the fact that Hyria is current using Hoplites and phalanxes for warfare, they are pursuing a very Greek path. They will need it and continue down that road as vassals to us as well. I sincerely believe the fastest way to Hellenize the Messapii is by granting Hyria vassalage and using their and Brention's status as quickly Hellenizing groups to exert cultural counter pressure on the rest of the Messapii, using their cultural center against them.
 
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Alright then, let's look at it in what your points look like overall and I'm just speculating and thinking way, waaay ahead here.
Option A: He sides with Athens, not something we have to worry about since Athen's grain supplies depend on us and even if we deny their request which I hope we do they are not likely to try and attack us or even work against us in any meaningful way. Not while they are at war with Sparta and her allies considering that would then open up the possibility of Eretria getting closer to Sparta or even them courting us so that we cut our shipment of grain to Athens, that only if Sparta would even bother with Eretria since they don't seem to have that much of a high opinion of us. So not much of a problem for us besides the dip into our wealth from trade.

Option B: Artahias marches against Eretria or Hyria and Tara's swoops in from behind him taking Neriton, Lupiae, etc. Giving Taras more land they control and ultimatly supremacy in the heel, which we definetly want under Eretria in the future so we have a shot to control access to the Ionian See should we even get to a point to build up our fleets enough to contest other powers in the area for it. Not to mention it would also put Taras back on the board as a possible threat to Eretria again. Which is bad, not so much short term but long term.

Option C: We allow Hyria to come under Eretrian rule, Artahias accepts it or atleast seems to do so and when we turn our focus North to combat the Dauni or even the Samnites or Frentani should we at that point already have dealt with the Dauni. Artahias or whoever controls the 'allied' Messapi at that point decides he doen't feel appreciated by his Eretrian allies who have snubbed him not once but twice now, feeling surrounded by Greeks he swoods in from the south to attack us either in a coordinated offensive together with our enemies up north or something he came up with on his own. Worst case scenario.

Having said all that I must admit I may be looking a bit too much ahead here and over thinking things.

Option C depends on us willing to make war against the Dauni, or the Dauni being willing to march south to attack us. The Frentani are more likely to march against the Dauni then they are to attack us, and the Samnites have a longer border with the Dauni. Their one border town, Venusia, is more likely to attack and raid Dauni territory as it is only close to Peuketii territory, and even then only Peuketii hinterland. Auscula, Vibini, and Vaecae are right there, and it would be easier for them to get at those cities and their riches then it would to attack any of us.

For Option B, I do not see why we need to have supremacy in the heel. We already share a lot of it with Taras, and it is way too far away from us for that southern territory to have a whole lot of bearing on us. Even in the war with Taras, the Messapii contributed less then nothing as their first move was to run off and die on Tarantine spears. As for access to the Ionian Sea, you need a port to moderate that and Taras has the only other ports in the heel, and they have no ability to contest Eretrian control of the entrance to the Adriatic. In fact, people making the voyage to or from Hellas likely make the Adriatic Crossing at some point, or continue on to Hydrus. The only potential way anyone could choke off access to the Adriatic and Ionian is by seizing Kerkyra instead, which the Athenians did and have.

Artahias needs allies right there in the Heel, and he has none or at least few. At worst, I can see him subjugating himself to Taras, but they would be far crueler masters than we. Better he content himself with us as his allies.
 
We have to break up large cultural blocks in order to start the process of integration

Alright, you've convinced me. New vote.

[X] [Hyria] Grant Hyria autonomy and Artahias allyship [+5,500 freemen providing tributes and levies including heavier infantry, Artahias becomes a loyal Eretrian ally rather than vassal].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Peace [Eretria and the Dauni will cease hostility, open trade to one another, and stop plotting against one another].
[X] [Athenai] Refuse the Treaty [Taras will be extremely grateful, Athenai will be unhappy, Eretrian grain trade may be superseded in favor of the Bosporos].

fasquardon
 
Between Hyria, Brention, and Caelia, that's the majority of the Messapii population; in fact, if my math is right, it's ~70% of the population.

Hyria on it's own is ~5,500 people and the Messapii are <13,750. All of the other cities are roughly of the same size and we know they have <5,000 people based on the map. If we assume (as is likely) they have a roughly equal share of the remaining population, each Messapii cities has a population of 1,000 - 1,500, on average. Assume Bretion and Caelia are average, then we can expect to have 8,250 Messapii vassals compared to Artahias' 5,500. Once you add in the 1,200 additional Kretian Freemen that moved into Brention with the Stayr, then it becomes 9,450 to 5,500; we have nearly twice as many Messapii freemen as Artahias does.

It's likely that there's also going to be a lot of internal migration as well. We know that Artahias is consolidating land and kicking peasants to the curb in order to build up a larger aristocracy and artistocratic cavalry. It's likely many of them will move into the lands directly vassalized by us as opposed to starving under Artahias' rule; land consolidation always involves displaced, starving peasants (look at the process of Enclosure in the UK). Hyria is effectively a revolutionary state that depends on small holding land owners, like earlier Eretria; it's likely they will find space for neighbours and kinsmen fleeing destitution in Artahias' domain. The population growth rate is likely higher among our subordinate Messapii and lower among Artahias', combined with the naturally larger population base and Hyria as a cultural center and Artahias will eventually be eclipsed by our vassals.

Splitting vassals into differentiated lumps is like chewing your food, it makes digestion easier. If Artahias is on the other hand undisputed ruler of the Messapii, it's much easier for him to try and rebel with the Messapii as a whole, either with Tarantine or Athenian support. 10,000 freemen are actually much more frightening under one man than that same number divided up. Leaving the Messapii in one solid, consolidated block means that there's less space for Eretrian culture to act on and influence them; they have a greater internal cultural cachet to resist conversion.

We have to break up large cultural blocks in order to start the process of integration; keeping everyone together in their own little ethnic tribe is not going to lead to a break down of national barriers with Epulia or Eretria. Rome was build great by expanding the definition of 'Roman'. If citizenship truly depended on ethnic status, Rome never would've expanded across Italy; you saw this with the Social Wars, Roman allies and vassals refused to work with Rome unless they could be Roman.

I must say, I didn't take that actualy into consideration so you do make a good point now that I think about it, I have previously mentioned breaking of the Peuketii and Dauni once or should we conquer them into smaller more manageble "provinces" underdirect Eretrian control. Just didn't think it could also apply to the Messapi since for me the biggest issue I have with voting for it is the actual impact that choice will have on our Peuketii vassals, thatand the fact that the leaders of the rebellion have to be made an example of to curtail any ideas others may have to try and do the same thing.
 
Option C depends on us willing to make war against the Dauni, or the Dauni being willing to march south to attack us. The Frentani are more likely to march against the Dauni then they are to attack us, and the Samnites have a longer border with the Dauni. Their one border town, Venusia, is more likely to attack and raid Dauni territory as it is only close to Peuketii territory, and even then only Peuketii hinterland. Auscula, Vibini, and Vaecae are right there, and it would be easier for them to get at those cities and their riches then it would to attack any of us.

To that I point to my previous couple of posts where I've mentioned the situation with the Dauni. War with them is inevitable and right now we have much to gain from going down that road. Once the Dauni are either entirely conquered or we have their southern territory under our control we can either make peace with them and keep the remaining independant Dauni as a buffer between us and the Samnites or swallow the Dauni whole and try and work a defensive agreement with the Frentani to stand against the Samnites should they turn their attention to us before we are ready to take them.
 
To that I point to my previous couple of posts where I've mentioned the situation with the Dauni. War with them is inevitable and right now we have much to gain from going down that road. Once the Dauni are either entirely conquered or we have their southern territory under our control we can either make peace with them and keep the remaining independant Dauni as a buffer between us and the Samnites or swallow the Dauni whole and try and work a defensive agreement with the Frentani to stand against the Samnites should they turn their attention to us before we are ready to take them.
It may be inevitable but lets finish our great works and fleet before we try to fund a war. With peace we can open new opportunities to wedge apart the Dauni economically. Us buying Salapias salt for example. Not to mention the opportunities for economic advancement which we badly need.
 
It may be inevitable but lets finish our great works and fleet before we try to fund a war.

We can put the Great Work on hold, I don't think the war with the Dauni will even take that long as for the fleet our treasury could probaly handle both or troops and the fleet. Also we can't put off dealing with the Dauni, we've been doing that for...I dont even know how long now its been that long. This is the best chance we got and there may not even be a next time. Also with the Dauni lands under our control we could stabilize and perhaps even increase or income by a lot. Making any war we have to fund in the future easier on us.
 
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No but it does when they will at the end of the day always be an obstacle we will need to remove not to mention again that we do need access to their salt, land and whatever other resources we can find in their land. Alone from the location of both the Dauni and Eretria these two would sooner or later have to go to war not only due to their different culture, religion and goverment but also because war with the Dauni is inevitable. It will happen sooner or later and it better be now while we still have the chance to actualy win.
I don't believe any of that is true, though.

I mean, if we were going the pseudo-Roman route of a land-based polity that gets the core of its strength from heavily armed warrior-farmer citizens and thus has to constantly expand by conquering and enslaving new populations and giving their land to citizens, yes, we'd "need" their resources and land, and yes we'd "have to" go to war with them because their culture, religion, and government are different. And we'd even "have to" go to war because war with the Dauni is inevitable, which is a circular argument if ever I heard one. :p

But, uh... most of the thread isn't actually that interested in following that route.
 
This is almost physically painful to see one of the most consequential votes to my dream slip on by me while I can hardly respond on mobile and working late

The treaty with Athens would be worth so much more than anything Taras can provide us. Athens already constitutes a full third of all naval trade routes, including half of our luxury ones; expanding that just as we're opening up our new harbor would give us massive returns in both the vast sums of silver they're willing to dump on anyone who can secure them a reliable supply of grain and the goodwill of their people, evident in how the common people would not let Obander so much as touch the ground on his way to the long walls.

And we desperately need that goodwill. It is only by Athenian efforts that we are now kept safe from Korinthos; if they pivot to Hellespontine grain for our spurning their friendship as threatened in the update (itself a terrible blow to our trade) and eventually hammer out a peace with Korinthos, we'll find ourselves suddenly outside of the aegis we've been acting in with all our Adriatic possessions available to be plucked by stronger navies. One of which could end up being Athens, should we start sticking our thumb in their eye; they want our grain and for Taras to not support Sparta, and should they ever feel desperate enough they may take action to ensure this as in our timeline they acted desperately against the Sicilians. Most league cities of ours are most or only accessible by sea; we cannot under any circumstances risk a superior naval power isolating our islands and colonies and taking advantage of the poor defenses and lack of hoplites inherent in newly settled island communities, and we all know how readily Athens adds to its Delian League. No, it is better to make Athenian action against us unthinkable for the outrage it would inspire among the people of Athens, and to use the silver derived from the grain trade to inflate our navy so that one day we might stand on more equal terms.

Taras is by far easier to deal with should it turn hostile, for our abundant and powerful allies- not the least of which could include Athens itself, as they would have clear incentive to support us if Sparta-aligned Taras ever came to blows with us and their joint colony of Thurii. And Taras cannot help us as much against our other foes; can they with their new navy fresh from the time of its destruction stand up to Korinth's hordes? Which party was it that provided us with invaluable diplomatic assistance to neuter the threat of Syrakousai in this generation?

I agree that Alkibiades is a dick for this, but standing in opposition to them is not a healthy occupation. It is best to bide our time and not draw the ire of a great power, particularly not the one best suited to dismantle us and whose foes hate us as well.
 
I don't believe any of that is true, though.

I mean, if we were going the pseudo-Roman route of a land-based polity that gets the core of its strength from heavily armed warrior-farmer citizens and thus has to constantly expand by conquering and enslaving new populations and giving their land to citizens, yes, we'd "need" their resources and land, and yes we'd "have to" go to war with them because their culture, religion, and government are different. And we'd even "have to" go to war because war with the Dauni is inevitable, which is a circular argument if ever I heard one. :p

But, uh... most of the thread isn't actually that interested in following that route.

It's not even about expanding at this point but just making sure we can keep and even improve what we have and the Dauni lands and resources are the best option there is for it at this point. We wouldn't even really need to expand any further then the Dauni lands for a few decades at the least since we need to actualy consolidate our gains from the Peuketii and Massapi still.
 
I'm not clear that that's useful. We're unlikely to have a long period of peace to develop, given the pace of events and the worsening diplomatic situation.
Which is another reason we want to buy time on our northern frontier even if its just a little bit of time. The Dauni king is seeking peace with us, trying to present a fait accompli. I would rather the situation be more stable before we go charging off into another war. You always want your house in order before you declare war.

We can put the Great Work on hold, I don't think the war with the Dauni will even take that long as for the fleet our treasury could probaly handle both or troops and the fleet. Also we can't put off dealing with the Dauni, we've been doing that for...I dont even know how long now its been that long. This is the best chance we got and there may not even be a next time. Also with the Dauni lands under our control we could stabilize and perhaps even increase or income by a lot. Making any war we have to fund in the future easier on us.

Is there a particular time table for us dealing with the Dauni? Also the best chance was before we jumped into a conflict with Taras, when we could have taken Salapia and Herdonia peacefully and broken off Brention and Caliea peacefully during the war with Taras.

Right now? We are staring down the barrel of Alkibiades and his ambitions. We have Taras on one side, and Athens on the other. Now is the absolute worst time to distract ourselves with a war that may or may not be as swift and victorious as you propose it to be.

I do not think it will be swift and victorious at all. Even if we beat back the Dauni, they have never stood with us in a set piece battle. They have instead kept away from our main phalanx, and I do not see them changing their tactics now. The one time they fought us and turned us away, was by taking advantage of how we fight. The same thing we did to the Tarantines, ironically enough.

So while they might not burn ALL the fields, their armies can torch them on their own well enough.

Also I do not see the Dauni as really having anything we want or need. The Vassals we have are hassle enough as it is. Why would we want to add one as densely populated as the Dauni are? Cetashwayo already said that if we did subjugate them all we would have to break them up into smaller pieces *anyway* just to administer them because under one person they would be too many to rule.
 
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