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Magical Girl Escalation Taylor (Worm/Nanoha)

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I want to remind people that the reason Dragon had difficulty with the blueprints/spell code is because the multi-dimensional math requires a level of 'human intuition' that Dragon lacks. SW told us this when we learnt that the math we sent Dragon apparently switched numeric bases with apparently no sense to her, but to us, we knew exactly which switch happened where.

Shipwright can teach regular people how to maintain magi-tech, but it would still be teaching a completely brand new professional level skill to someone who has never had to consciously do multi-dimensional math (regular tinkers). I would expect it to take sufficiently long, or require a high level skill somewhere in his skill tree to learn to teach it efficiently.

@Silently Watches Thought? I don't think I am off base.
 
Always Late said:
Given @Silently Watches exhaustive list of reasons the PRT would say no, I don't think there's any wiggle room on that issue.
One of which was the inability of the PRT to evaluate the 'tinkertech', partially since it uses no electricity. Thus, there's no real introduction, only a repeat of what we had with Dragon.

You've clearly put alot of thought into this, but I unfortunately have to tell you it's not going to work out like that. The only IC or OOC options for us is to get VIsta away from the PRT to make the surgery. That the PRT would be skeptical of the magitech and try to prevent Missy from getting it is an easy conclusion given Taylor's had the PRT/Protectorate push her away before and Dragon was skeptical of magic before the Adept reveal.

You've seen it mentioned in the story: Time-Space Administration Bureau. Think UN mixed with the FBI in multiple dimensions/universes.
And yes, the common shorthand for Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha is, well, Nanoha.
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I'm not trying to work the angle of "Give Vista the Arm", I'm saying we attempt to turn our attempt to give her the arm (Which as SW stated, would more than likely fail or be so bogged down as for there to be no difference) into something we can actually use, rather than just have a useless paperweight. If Vista won't actually be able to use the arm because of (very reasonable) worries on the protectorate's side, then it seems like a good idea to use that as an in to go for other bridges with the Protectorate.

Bridges that, if played well, can be very beneficial to us and our Tinker
 
@Silently Watches - You mentioned that to install Missy's arm Tim would need to build a surgical suite. Can Tim already build such a suite or is there some tech he needs to learn first? Assuming Tim can build the suite how many build project slots would it take up?

Oh and how long are you thinking the surgery and post-surgery recover will take? My first thought on hearing that the PRT would never approve was to get Taylor to convince Missy to sneak off at some point and show up later with the arm already installed. However this:
Silently Watches said:
he's going to need to do a fairly substantial amount of surgery to implant the reactor and tie her nerves into the connection
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sound like something that would take a while to perform and recover from. Which means Missy going missing, pun intended, would be noticed before we could return her.
 
Metaldragon868 said:
I'm not trying to work the angle of "Give Vista the Arm", I'm saying we attempt to turn our attempt to give her the arm (Which as SW stated, would more than likely fail or be so bogged down as for there to be no difference) into something we can actually use, rather than just have a useless paperweight. If Vista won't actually be able to use the arm because of (very reasonable) worries on the protectorate's side, then it seems like a good idea to use that as an in to go for other bridges with the Protectorate.

Bridges that, if played well, can be very beneficial to us and our Tinker
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I don't think we're going to get any inroads with our magitech until the PRT gets more work with the TSAB. While we've proved through the Adepts that we've got legit magic and are not just another Myrddin, there is still the matter of the PRT has no way to evaluate or study any tech we give them.
Silently Watches said:
You mentioned the PRT testing his tech. That's yet another rub. Tinkers of all stripes, at least all those shown in the series, use electricity to power their inventions. Magitech does not rely on electricity at all. They have no way to verify that it is what you say it is and that it will do everything and only what you promise it will do.
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What you're suggesting is like giving the ancient Greeks a nuclear reactor and telling them to reverse-engineer it. While one notable individual may have some small inkling of the theory behind its operation, its totally beyond their ability to comprehend. It's quite literally Sufficiently Advanced Technology=Magic.

Also, we've been told how to make the Vista arm work. They won't take it away once we pull it off.
Silently Watches said:
Kidnap? No. Vista would let you do this in a heartbeat. She really wants two hands again. And the PRT/Protectorate will have a much harder time saying no to a fait accompli.
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This is only a waste if we go three-for-three in insisting on pointless modifications that end up ruining the subplot, like Coil and Lisa. You want to have tech inroads with the PRT @Metaldragon868, then give the PRT a working example in Missy.
 
LancerisDead said:
@Silently Watches. Which skill tree would lead us to telepathy-blocking technology? How much range could we give it, on a personal scale? On a radius?
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You need AT LEAST Integration.
edale said:
And of course you failed to mention this while we were still voting...lol.
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Hey, I talked about the surgical suite during the last build vote. Not my fault you guys have the memory of a goldfish. :p
RoninSword said:
I want to remind people that the reason Dragon had difficulty with the blueprints/spell code is because the multi-dimensional math requires a level of 'human intuition' that Dragon lacks. SW told us this when we learnt that the math we sent Dragon apparently switched numeric bases with apparently no sense to her, but to us, we knew exactly which switch happened where.

Shipwright can teach regular people how to maintain magi-tech, but it would still be teaching a completely brand new professional level skill to someone who has never had to consciously do multi-dimensional math (regular tinkers). I would expect it to take sufficiently long, or require a high level skill somewhere in his skill tree to learn to teach it efficiently.

@Silently Watches Thought? I don't think I am off base.
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Teaching magical engineering is possible. It would also take a long while to do, and honestly it would be easier to teach trained engineers rather than Tinkers. The latter get designs handed to them by their shards, it isn't so much a learned skill.
UberJJK said:
@Silently Watches - You mentioned that to install Missy's arm Tim would need to build a surgical suite. Can Tim already build such a suite or is there some tech he needs to learn first? Assuming Tim can build the suite how many build project slots would it take up?

Oh and how long are you thinking the surgery and post-surgery recover will take? My first thought on hearing that the PRT would never approve was to get Taylor to convince Missy to sneak off at some point and show up later with the arm already installed. However this:

sound like something that would take a while to perform and recover from. Which means Missy going missing, pun intended, would be noticed before we could return her.
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Tim can build a surgical suite whenever because it's a necessary piece of tech for using one of his default skills. Length of time… two build slots.

As for the surgery itself? Most of a day for the surgery and a couple of days to let her stump recover. The arm itself will snap on once the connector plate is there. (Yes, installing it permanently is also an option, but since Missy is still growing, Tim want something that can be easily replaced as she needs a bigger one.)
 
Vague thought, while the prosthetic is meant to operate off mana, couldn't a sufficiently talented individual*cough*Dragon*Cough* reverse engineer it to work off less dangerous, more local sources? I'm going to assume, beyond the neural linkup parts, it's a lot simpler than a Device...
 
Silently Watches said:
Hey, I talked about the surgical suite during the last build vote. Not my fault you guys have the memory of a goldfish. :p
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Hey! I don't have the memory of a... What were we talking about again? Oh look, an air bubble!
Silently Watches said:
The arm itself will snap on once the connector plate is there. (Yes, installing it permanently is also an option, but since Missy is still growing, Tim want something that can be easily replaced as she needs a bigger one.)
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AND it lets Vista have a "battle" arm as well!

Honestly, the thought that the arm might be a permanent attachment, instead of something that attaches ala FMA automail, didn't even occur to me until after the vote ended... Glad to see I was right.

And lastly... are there any other necessary pieces of tech Tim needs to build before he can use any of his default skills?
 
veekie said:
It would rather sour the PRT on us though...but if we asked in private and she agrees with her parents/guardians, then its solid.
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Remember Vista's guardian is Miss Militia. If the PRT isn't going to let us install her arm then MM isn't either.

Silently Watches said:
As for the surgery itself? Most of a day for the surgery and a couple of days to let her stump recover.
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Hm. That's going to make arranging this quite difficult indeed.
 
I'm personally of the opinion we should still give the arm to the PRT. Thanks to SW, we know the PRT will likely never let Tim do the surgery, but in character we don't know that yet. It also shows that we were at least trying to find a way to fix the mistake we made.
 
Silently Watches said:
Also, just having an arm for Vista doesn't mean you can just stick it on with duct tape and super glue. Tim still needs a surgical suite if he wants to do any operations.
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Makes sense, I suppose.

Silently Watches said:
Tim has to build it. Part of it is the magitech aspect, part of it is that he's going to need to do a fairly substantial amount of surgery to implant the reactor and tie her nerves into the connection, and part of it is you think the PRT's going to allow an unknown bio-Tinker to start sticking untested tech into their thirteen-year-old Wards? Ha ha, no.
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Always Late said:
So... we just voted to build an arm that we'd need to kidnap Vista to install? Or rather, do it while intentionally keeping it a secret from the PRT?
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landcollector said:
Seems like we kind of squandered a build slot then. Disappointing, but live and learn I guess.
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Silently Watches said:
Kidnap? No. Vista would let you do this in a heartbeat. She really wants two hands again. And the PRT/Protectorate will have a much harder time saying no to a fait accompli.
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Always Late said:
Ooooooor, get Vista away from the PRT, ask her, then shuffle her over to Tim for an appointment.
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So, if the PRT won't allow us to install a piece of untested Tinkertech in Vista, how about we ask Missy and Hannah instead? As in invite her over to the Privateers' HQ as a hang-out action next week, show her the arm along with a demonstration of its function (I'm assuming that Shipwright has either computer or Device access to it in order to test its functionality prior to installation) and then ask her if she wants it.

If (when) she says yes we can ask Shipwright to build the surgical suite, which should actually be helpful to the Privateers as well, so that the arm can be installed the week after.

As to PRT: do they actually have the right to veto Vista's acquisition of a prosthesis that would restore her quality of life from a source she trusts? Even in her civilian identity? If so we might need to sic the Youth Guard on them.

UberJJK said:
Remember Vista's guardian is Miss Militia. If the PRT isn't going to let us install her arm then MM isn't either.
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If Miss Militia is truly the kind of company-yes-woman that would prioritize the will of the PRT over the desires and well-being of her adopted (has that happened yet?) daughter, then she shouldn't be Missy's guardian in the first place. In which case a Youth Guard intervention might be necessary as well.

Though I would prefer if Missy, and hopefully Miss Militia, were be able to wrangle either permission or at least non-censure out of the PRT on their own.

After all, it is and should be Missy's decision whether to get the arm.

And, maybe, whether we involve the Youth Guard on her behalf, now that I think about it. We should talk to her beforehand if we think that step might be necessary.
 
I think when Tim gets around to building his surgery suit it should be done in a world without shrimp Parahumans/PRT.

Perfect Storm has already shown it can hack into normal computer systems, so we'd just need to hop over to another dimension, hack ourselves some funds and make the local government computers think we need our "re-issued" ID documents sent out.

Then it's just a case of buying/renting a place to set up shop and kidnapping inviting Vista over.
 
DonLyn said:
If Miss Militia is truly the kind of company-yes-woman that would prioritize the will of the PRT over the desires and well-being of her adopted (has that happened yet?) daughter, then she shouldn't be Missy's guardian in the first place.
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Will of the PRT has nothing to do with this. Without the knowledge and understanding that this isn't tinkertech but the product of centuries of magitech research rejecting the prosthetic is the absolutely correct decision. Every one of the reasons the PRT has to reject it:
Silently Watches said:
In fact, let me explain just why this will never happen.
  1. The PRT knows nothing about Shipwright. Remember how they closed ranks around Vista when she was injured? That mentality was not a one-off. Well-meaning independent or not, performing surgery on a Ward is not something they'll sign off on without a great deal of assurance. Assurance they won't get because
  2. Bio-Tinkers aren't trusted in Earth Bet. Let's name the bio-Tinkers mentioned in the series: Bonesaw, Nilbog, Blasto. Not the best representatives, and from Blasto's interlude, it's clear there is little leeway given to them. And your first request would be to let them see the insides of one of their Wards. Sure, that will make them trust you.
  3. You mentioned the PRT testing his tech. That's yet another rub. Tinkers of all stripes, at least all those shown in the series, use electricity to power their inventions. Magitech does not rely on electricity at all. They have no way to verify that it is what you say it is and that it will do everything and only what you promise it will do.
  4. Part of the tech you're talking about implanting is a miniature reactor. Do you know what you call a reactor that fails? A bomb. You want to stick a bomb in a little girl?
  5. You're asking to implant Tinkertech into a thirteen-year-old's body. Tinkertech that is well known to be difficult to maintain when it's out in the open. And you want to have it put inside someone, where to perform any kind of maintenance he would have to open her up again?
  6. A. Bomb.
  7. How much can he really trust his inventions? He's been a Tinker for all of a few weeks, and he hasn't built much. A few production tools, a single suit of power armor. None of this stuff has been field tested. He's never tried to repair it. How long does it last before it develops problems? How long before it risks critical failure? He doesn't have the slightest clue.
tl;dr: The PRT won't give Shipwright permission or assistance in performing surgery on Vista for what in their eyes are very good reasons not to trust his tech.
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are just as valid for Miss Militia. We're talking about a dangerous operation from someone with no medical training to install a potentially explosive device inside a child. It doesn't matter what Vista wants; legally speaking knowingly allowing such an operation to take place would be criminally negligent on her pat.
 
Hoyden said:
I think when Tim gets around to building his surgery suit it should be done in a world without shrimp Parahumans/PRT.

Perfect Storm has already shown it can hack into normal computer systems, so we'd just need to hop over to another dimension, hack ourselves some funds and make the local government computers think we need our "re-issued" ID documents sent out.

Then it's just a case of buying/renting a place to set up shop and kidnapping inviting Vista over.
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We'd need to prioritize him learning the corresponding spell then, since having the Privateers reliant on us for transportation would be... Awkward.
 
UberJJK said:
Will of the PRT has nothing to do with this. Without the knowledge and understanding that this isn't tinkertech but the product of centuries of magitech research rejecting the prosthetic is the absolutely correct decision. Every one of the reasons the PRT has to reject it:

are just as valid for Miss Militia. We're talking about a dangerous operation from someone with no medical training to install a potentially explosive device inside a child. It doesn't matter what Vista wants; legally speaking knowingly allowing such an operation to take place would be criminally negligent on her pat.
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The part you quoted was intended as a reaction to the sentiment that if the PRT disapproved then MM would automatically defer to them.

Which seems like a horrible quality for the adoptive mother of a child soldier.

You are right that Miss Militia might have valid concerns of her own.

Sorry for the double post, I don't know how to insert quotes into edits while on the phone. Or if you would actually be pinged if I did.
 
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Hoyden said:
I think when Tim gets around to building his surgery suit it should be done in a world without shrimp Parahumans/PRT.

Perfect Storm has already shown it can hack into normal computer systems, so we'd just need to hop over to another dimension, hack ourselves some funds and make the local government computers think we need our "re-issued" ID documents sent out.

Then it's just a case of buying/renting a place to set up shop and kidnapping inviting Vista over.
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DonLyn said:
We'd need to prioritize him learning the corresponding spell then, since having the Privateers reliant on us for transportation would be... Awkward.
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Taking this as a hypothetical:
Can Tim even learn Dimensional Transfer though? I don't see it on his spell tree.
 
DonLyn said:
The part you quoted was intended as a reaction to the sentiment that if the PRT disapproved then MM would automatically defer to them.
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Ah. That wasn't what I meant in my initial statement but I can see how you could read it like that. What I meant in my initial statement was that as someone who has worked alongside the PRT for as long as she has, Miss Militia's triggering predates the PRT's formation by a full eight years, Miss Milltia would almost certainly share the same concerns as the PRT. Especially given her flawless memory and long experience working alongside Tinkers such as Hero and Armsmaster.

If it wasn't for the fact that Tim's device would almost certainly scan anything he makes to ensure it has no errors I would be concerned about this operation. After all we know mana can be poisonous and we're talking about sticking a mana reactor inside Vista. All it needs is a small leak and over time...
 
UberJJK said:
If it wasn't for the fact that Tim's device would almost certainly scan anything he makes to ensure it has no errors I would be concerned about this operation. After all we know mana can be poisonous and we're talking about sticking a mana reactor inside Vista. All it needs is a small leak and over time...
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Would we still need a reactor if Vista was a mage? Even a low rank one?
 
DonLyn said:
The part you quoted was intended as a reaction to the sentiment that if the PRT disapproved then MM would automatically defer to them.

Which seems like a horrible quality for the adoptive mother of a child soldier.

You are right that Miss Militia might have valid concerns of her own.

Sorry for the double post, I don't know how to insert quotes into edits while on the phone. Or if you would actually be pinged if I did.
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Miss Militia has a great deal of faith in the establishment, and in this case her impulse is correct. It's good policy to have her go without an arm than have unverified Tinker install an unverifiable apparatus which requires ongoing maintenance not to fail, which may allow anything from hijack control of her to simply holding her hostage, and strongly incentivizing the continued health of the Privateers.

As stated, this will get us in all kinds of legal shit and the Youth Guard would reluctantly back the PRT up here.

Hence, back to my original suggestion: We hand it over to the PRT for them to give it whatever testing, in front of Vista.
One way they will approve it despite misgivings. This will be the ideal but unlikely outcome.
Another way, Vista grows more dissatisfied with the PRT and goes independent eventually(which is a possibility) for someone who clearly gives more of a shit about her quality of life.
A third way, the PRT pushes some money through to pay for Scapegoat, Panacea or other proven and PRT approved healers to fix her up.
 
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