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Magical Girl Escalation Taylor (Worm/Nanoha)
- Thread starter Silently Watches
- Start date
LancerisDead
Definitely not a cat
- Location
- Buenos Aires
More or less this, yes. If from A Rank onwards it starts feeling limiting, it could always be that from B to A Rank you get 2 more spells, then both AA and AAA get 1 one more spell per rank.Something like this?
My only concern is that if we do it this way, once you get to A+ rank they're going to start feeling restrained by how much they can do in theory vs how much they can grow in practice (which is clearly the biggest argument against my current setup, I guess). But that's more of a quibble about the number of spell slots per rank than the overall system.
So B Rank would get 12, A Rank 14, AA Rank 15 and AAA 16 total. Mind you, I don't think that B Rank being capped with 12 skills is too limiting. As long as things like Homing and Burst (in other words, upgrades to already learned abilities) don't take a slot by themselves I'd say that's quite a lot of flexibility.
To clarify, the spells that wouldn't take up a slot would be those that only either enhance or modify a spells functions (Homing Bullet, Burst). Multishot would require a slot on it's own given that it's effectively a gatling using the Shooters as ammo.
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Have you considered actually having people spending time to learn spells? This way there can be cummlative rolls to learn spells and well it would also be a choice for them to learn or not. More complex spells but not necessarily more powerful spells take longer
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[X] Arms Master – Specialization of Extinction Knight, upgrades Flare Blade
We have good ranged damage, good defences, good crowd control, as well as good mobility
Healing might be worth investing in if it was an option, mobility is the other thing I would be interested in
Basically seems like a time and energy efficient way to fight large groups when blasting them isn't an option
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[X] Arms Master – Specialization of Extinction Knight, upgrades Flare Blade
We have good ranged damage, good defences, good crowd control, as well as good mobility
Healing might be worth investing in if it was an option, mobility is the other thing I would be interested in
Basically seems like a time and energy efficient way to fight large groups when blasting them isn't an option
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- Location
- Canada
[X] Undaunted – Specialization of Extinction Knight, teaches defensive self buffs
We have offense in spades. Time to start working on that durability.
We have offense in spades. Time to start working on that durability.
Silently Watches
Professional Stalker
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See, I would think that Burst at least would be enough of a modification to require its own spell slot. Homing Bullet, eh. Taylor did have to spend an after-fight spell point to learn it. Probably that one will need to be "purchased" with at least one fight, but I would be willing to leave it as a "free slot" kind of spell. Dunno yet.
LancerisDead
Definitely not a cat
- Location
- Buenos Aires
Fair enough. Even if Burst and Homing would take a slot, 12 to 15 spells total would be more than enough incentive to give someone a Device than there is now, so it's just a nitpick.
The leveling system would wind up pretty similar to the Templates, just more open ended on a skill-by-skill basis and a larger investment on training to master said skills.
Silently Watches
Professional Stalker
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- Right behind you
I'm liking this system. I'm liking it a lot.
So 6, 9, 12, 14, 15, and 16 total spells respectively for the different ranks. I'm thinking letting them start with 1 spell as D rank, 2 as C rank, and 3 as B+. Then it's just a matter of figuring out what is essentially going to be an XP requirement per spell "tier", and we should have it ready to go.
Silently Watches
Professional Stalker
- Location
- Right behind you
Quick change to the above. A+ should get 4 spells to start because that's when they can do "cross-training", i.e. it's when an Intelligent Device can do support or melee spells in addition to pure blasting. An extra spell to start would be good for that.
The other thing that crossed my mind as I was typing this was that for the XP tiers, rather than using it as a rip-off of the mastery system of the combat templates, what about an XP bank that's a rip-off of the Gadgeteer's tech points? Every fight is worth 1 XP. Afterwards you would spend 2 XP on a modification like Homing Bullet or Burst, 4 XP on a basic spell (which would be most of them), 6 XP on an advanced spell like a Buster or the teleportations or something else impressive like that, and 8 XP on the "WTF?!?!" spells like Breakers or another wild spell like Mistilteinn.
I just feel like spending 4 or 6 fights mastering one spell only to get minor modification feels like a waste, even though I know it would be made up when they spent fewer fights mastering that modification. I think it would also be more flexible if someone wanted another base skill that would serve as the root of its own skill branch.
The other thing that crossed my mind as I was typing this was that for the XP tiers, rather than using it as a rip-off of the mastery system of the combat templates, what about an XP bank that's a rip-off of the Gadgeteer's tech points? Every fight is worth 1 XP. Afterwards you would spend 2 XP on a modification like Homing Bullet or Burst, 4 XP on a basic spell (which would be most of them), 6 XP on an advanced spell like a Buster or the teleportations or something else impressive like that, and 8 XP on the "WTF?!?!" spells like Breakers or another wild spell like Mistilteinn.
I just feel like spending 4 or 6 fights mastering one spell only to get minor modification feels like a waste, even though I know it would be made up when they spent fewer fights mastering that modification. I think it would also be more flexible if someone wanted another base skill that would serve as the root of its own skill branch.
LancerisDead
Definitely not a cat
- Location
- Buenos Aires
It also goes with the theme that Device mages, like the Gadgeteer, are more or less writing the spells from scratch. It makes sense if the systems work the same because both are "inventing" something.
Silently Watches
Professional Stalker
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Of course, the other thing that crossed my mind as I'm trying to go to sleep is that with this redesign of the Device system, a AAA rank mage without a Device only has half the spells of a D ranker with one.
Thankfully that's an easy fix of just getting rid of the half spell setup and giving a Deviceless mage one spell per rank. Which means I need to come up with another spell for Epoch. Standstill I already have a plan for. Eventually I'm going to have to write this up in an FAQ post, but not tonight.
For Epoch some kind of protection spell is likely what he needs. He has flight, shooter, and telekinesis for general utility so a shield spell should round things out for him.Of course, the other thing that crossed my mind as I'm trying to go to sleep is that with this redesign of the Device system, a AAA rank mage without a Device only has half the spells of a D ranker with one.
Eventually I'm going to have to write this up in an FAQ post, but not tonight.
Or you can make mods to a spell cost half a slot, since the base spell is there.
Non-Template Mages
Silently Watches
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Remember how I said earlier that I wouldn't type this up tonight? And it's still tonight? Fricking insomnia. Anyway…
So you've decided that you don't want to give a magic-capable character a template. Maybe it's because their Linker Core is a AA or AAA in rank and they have a useful Rare Skill. Maybe it's because they're a cape with a potent ability. Regardless, what are the options left to you?
Deviceless mage
This is, as the title says, a mage who has to cast their spells without the assistance of a Device. If you have a cape who wants to keep their power, this is probably their best choice since, once again, Devices will burn out a parahuman's corona and gemma. They are also easiest type of mage to do character generation on.
Simply put, a Deviceless mage gets to learn one spell per the rank of their Linker Core. For example, a D-rank mage can learn 1 spell, a C-rank mage can learn 2 spells, on up to the AAA-rank mage who can learn 6 spells. Like I said, easy. They start with 1 spells at chargen, and afterwards will learn more spells similarly to their Device-carrying cousins.
There are some caveats to be aware of:
Device mage
Maybe after reading those restrictions, you've decided going Deviceless just isn't in the cards for you. Get out of here, shard! (Or maybe lucky you, you aren't a cape in the first place.) I'm going to assume you've already familiarized yourself with this post about Device specialties.
Mages with non-template Devices are in the Wild West in terms of development. Instead of having pre-built skill trees like the templates, you get to make your own. How exciting, right? Sadly, once again Linker Core rank becomes important because it will determine both how many spells you get to pick out on chargen and how many spells that mage can know in total.
If you're looking at this table and thinking to yourself, "Wait a minute, does a D-rank mage with a Device really have as many spells as a AAA-ranker without one?", congratulations! You made the right choice giving up that crappy bug-controlling power to go full magic.
Anyway, back on track. The way this works is that once you pick out a character's starting spells, they will gain XP to use towards new spells. This can be done one of two ways. #1, every time a character is involved in an on-screen fight, either by fighting alongside Taylor, in an interlude, or a canonized omake, they will earn 1 XP. #2, they will earn 1 XP for every week that they are regularly using magic. (Which means that if you have someone who goes into mana poisoning, they won't earn XP until that heals.) This means the more we see of a mage character, the faster they are going to grow.
Spells themselves cost different amount of XP to learn.
While we are talking about XP, this technically applies to character generation. Characters start off with 4 XP for every starting spell slot, which will be spent making their list. Most of the time, this doesn't matter because you start off with basic spells and they start their mage life with 0 XP. If you have characters who are capable of flight and give them Aerial Combat to start, or start them off with a Buster, or something else along those lines, that's 6 XP being spent and they may wind up in XP debt where they have a negative XP value they have to make up. Or, if you wind up using some of their spell slots for modifications, they may start with "extra" XP. It all depends on how chargen goes.
Once you have your starting spells and have started earning XP, you can add skills to a character's tree two ways. The most common is going to be adding a spell that is either derived or at least related to another spell they already know. That extends that spell branch, and it's the only way to add on the advanced and WTF tiers. The other way is to pick a basic spell (or Aerial Combat because who doesn't want to fly?) that is not related to another spell in that character's tree and set it down as a new base spell for more spells to come off of. Don't be surprised when no characters' trees look exactly alike.
Should you decide later on that you don't like a character having a specific spell, either because it was a bad purchase or you've done or built something that renders it redundant, do not fret! You can refund learned spells for half their purchase price and free up that spell slot for a different spell entirely.
Sadly, there are a few more rules to be added here, just like with Deviceless mages.
I could not have come up with this system alone. Everyone give @LancerisDead a round of applause, mostly because he is responsible for at least half of this new and improved system.
Fricking insomnia. Anyway…So you've decided that you don't want to give a magic-capable character a template. Maybe it's because their Linker Core is a AA or AAA in rank and they have a useful Rare Skill. Maybe it's because they're a cape with a potent ability. Regardless, what are the options left to you?
Deviceless mage
This is, as the title says, a mage who has to cast their spells without the assistance of a Device. If you have a cape who wants to keep their power, this is probably their best choice since, once again, Devices will burn out a parahuman's corona and gemma. They are also easiest type of mage to do character generation on.
Simply put, a Deviceless mage gets to learn one spell per the rank of their Linker Core. For example, a D-rank mage can learn 1 spell, a C-rank mage can learn 2 spells, on up to the AAA-rank mage who can learn 6 spells. Like I said, easy. They start with 1 spells at chargen, and afterwards will learn more spells similarly to their Device-carrying cousins.
There are some caveats to be aware of:
- If you teach a D-rank mage to cast Guardian Beast, they only have enough mana to support a Beast of the Gear. This also does not count as a random generation of their Beast, so the Gear will not have the exclusive ability given to those generated randomly.
- These mages can learn the Barrier Jacket spell, but it will count against their spell slots whereas a mage with a Device gets it for free.
- Recursion Field or other variations on dimensional barriers are too complex to use without a Device. These mages can use spatial barriers, which still work to cut off an area from the rest of the world, but they are visible and do not remove damage done to the area within unlike the battlefields created by a true dimensional barrier.
- The Basic Flight and Teleport spells are restricted to mages of B-rank and above. This is weaker than the Aerial Combat and Spatial Translocation spells available to Device mages, but that's because they are said to be difficult even for normal Nanoha mages.
- Buster spells and other spells of this rank (see next section for details) are restricted to AA+ mages.
- Spells on the level of Breakers? Don't make me laugh.
Device mage
Maybe after reading those restrictions, you've decided going Deviceless just isn't in the cards for you. Get out of here, shard! (Or maybe lucky you, you aren't a cape in the first place.) I'm going to assume you've already familiarized yourself with this post about Device specialties.
Mages with non-template Devices are in the Wild West in terms of development. Instead of having pre-built skill trees like the templates, you get to make your own. How exciting, right? Sadly, once again Linker Core rank becomes important because it will determine both how many spells you get to pick out on chargen and how many spells that mage can know in total.
| LINKER CORE RANK | STARTING SPELLS | TOTAL SPELLS |
|---|---|---|
D | 1 | 6 |
C | 2 | 9 |
B | 3 | 12 |
A | 4 | 14 |
AA | 4 | 15 |
AAA | 4 | 16 |
If you're looking at this table and thinking to yourself, "Wait a minute, does a D-rank mage with a Device really have as many spells as a AAA-ranker without one?", congratulations! You made the right choice giving up that crappy bug-controlling power to go full magic.
Anyway, back on track. The way this works is that once you pick out a character's starting spells, they will gain XP to use towards new spells. This can be done one of two ways. #1, every time a character is involved in an on-screen fight, either by fighting alongside Taylor, in an interlude, or a canonized omake, they will earn 1 XP. #2, they will earn 1 XP for every week that they are regularly using magic. (Which means that if you have someone who goes into mana poisoning, they won't earn XP until that heals.) This means the more we see of a mage character, the faster they are going to grow.
Spells themselves cost different amount of XP to learn.
- 2 XP for Modifications to known spells. This can affect how a spell acts, but it isn't enough to be a new spell on its own. Homing Bullet and Burst are the stereotypes of this tier, but I'm sure we'll find more together.
- Something very special in the modification tier is spell masteries. Because non-template mages don't have centuries of cumulative memories to fall back on, all their spells are comparable to the "Adept level" for a template mage. Learning a mastery spell improves a collection of related spells to the "Master level". For example, spending 2 XP on Movement Mastery would improve Blitz Action and Aerial Combat; Boost Mastery would improve Strike Boost, Barret Boost, and Cape Boost; etc.
- 4 XP for the Basic tier of spells. Most of your spells are going to be in this group, such as Telekinesis, Wide Area Search, Ring Bind, Blitz Action, and Guardian Beast.
- 6 XP for the Advanced tier of spells. These spells are by and large going to be those that are restricted to B-rank and above. Aerial Combat, Spatial Translocation, Champion-level summons, and Busters fit here.
- 8 XP for the WTF tier of spells. These are the spells that are limited to the most powerful of mages, the AA and AAA rankers. They are also the abilities that will make that mage famous or infamous on Earth Bet. Examples are Dimensional Transfer, Giant-level summons, Mistilteinn, Diabolic Emission, and the Breakers.
While we are talking about XP, this technically applies to character generation. Characters start off with 4 XP for every starting spell slot, which will be spent making their list. Most of the time, this doesn't matter because you start off with basic spells and they start their mage life with 0 XP. If you have characters who are capable of flight and give them Aerial Combat to start, or start them off with a Buster, or something else along those lines, that's 6 XP being spent and they may wind up in XP debt where they have a negative XP value they have to make up. Or, if you wind up using some of their spell slots for modifications, they may start with "extra" XP. It all depends on how chargen goes.
Once you have your starting spells and have started earning XP, you can add skills to a character's tree two ways. The most common is going to be adding a spell that is either derived or at least related to another spell they already know. That extends that spell branch, and it's the only way to add on the advanced and WTF tiers. The other way is to pick a basic spell (or Aerial Combat because who doesn't want to fly?) that is not related to another spell in that character's tree and set it down as a new base spell for more spells to come off of. Don't be surprised when no characters' trees look exactly alike.
Should you decide later on that you don't like a character having a specific spell, either because it was a bad purchase or you've done or built something that renders it redundant, do not fret! You can refund learned spells for half their purchase price and free up that spell slot for a different spell entirely.
Sadly, there are a few more rules to be added here, just like with Deviceless mages.
- D-rank mages are still limited to Beasts of the Gear. That one has nothing to do with the Device and everything to do with the fact that they don't have the mana to support one of the more costly Beasts.
- Only Armed Devices can give their mages the fabled Knight Armor. All other Devices have to deal with the normal Barrier Jacket.
- Cartridges are by and large limited to Armed Devices unless the mage is on the higher end of the power scale.
- I don't need to go into rank restrictions of the fan-favorite spells because they are already mentioned above.
I could not have come up with this system alone. Everyone give @LancerisDead a round of applause, mostly because he is responsible for at least half of this new and improved system.
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Silently Watches
Professional Stalker
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- Right behind you
In fact @LancerisDead you deserve a reward for helping me so much with this, and I don't think a single training point will do. Instead…
Pick a red spell to unlock for Lacey. Whichever one you want.
Pick a red spell to unlock for Lacey. Whichever one you want.
If I'm understanding this right - Solar Wrath is WTF tier, and Ragnarök is beyond even that?
edit: also, have a vote
[X] Undaunted – Specialization of Extinction Knight, teaches defensive self buffs
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- Location
- Belfast
I'd been assuming that Ragnarök fell into the 'Hayate would be interested in comparing notes' class of spells myself...
Solar Wrath just seems to be a heavy buster spell that most of the (admittedly top end) mages seem to ensure they have one of in their repertoire, but still an impressive spell and with more potential for raw lethality than most if the limiters are removed.
- Location
- Maybe?
So using a Device burns out your Corona. But... can Devices trigger?
Dragon can, so... theoretically, yeah, I guess.
But that'd require a device to undergo sufficient emotional turmoil and otherwise traumatic events, which would be pretty damn difficult by design.
No one in their right mind would program a device to be prone to high emotions or breaking down under pressure, after all. That'd be counter to to their purpose.
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- Location
- Ural, Russia, Earth
Not the wisest, yes, but in the same time Lacey was the only possible candidate in our immediate circle.
Unlike Missy, she has a linker core and can actually take a template.
Unlike Kayleigh, she doesn't have a bunch of haters amongst the players (and I'm proud to be a part of this bunch).
Unlike Laura, she's not an active villain.
Honestly, I want exactly two things from Lacey:
- I want her to come and heal Taylor if she's ever injured, and I'm sure Lacey will do it.
- And I want her to unlock the forced teleportation spell and, when time is right, use it in concert with other support mages to send an Endbringer to Arc-en-Ciel. And I want to believe she won't disagree to do it. And if she will, I'm sure she'll receive even worse dressing down than the one Laura just received.
No, Solar Wrath is a Buster, advanced level. Ragnarok is a Breaker, WTF level.
Silently Watches
Professional Stalker
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- Right behind you
As Shaseyu said, Solar Wrath is just another Buster. Ragnarök is a Breaker-type and therefore WTF tier.
Basic and Advanced Devices do not have enough autonomy to Trigger. Unison Devices like Dragon theoretically could.
LancerisDead
Definitely not a cat
- Location
- Buenos Aires
Aww, thank you!
I'm gonna have to go with Guardian Beast, 'cause another potential hand on deck is never a bad idea.
Rajvik_wolfboy
Wolf amongst the stars.
- Location
- Florida
Especially one that will be dedicated to the healing ninjas protection
- Location
- Georgia
Armed Device doesn't mean that it isn't intelligent. All Devices are intelligent to some degree, but the basic storage devices seem to be more in line with Alexa and the like, not really thinking so much. Raging Heart is an Intelligent Device. Bardiche is never named as to what kind of Device he is, that I know of*, but the way he is used suggests either Armed device or a hybrid like Perfect Storm, where a Device got upgraded with additional functionality from a different style of Device. All three advanced Device types seem to be treated nearly as people by Midchildan society, though it takes Unison Device level AIs to become citizens and hold office independent of a magical partner.
*The wiki says Intelligent, but it was also designed by Precia and made by her familiar, so he likely comes close to being Lost Logia, really. Precia was that much more advanced than her contemporaries in most of the things I've seen about her, but I confess I'm uncertain how much fanon I've absorbed on the matter.
I know this won't happen. It would be game breaking. I am not asking for this, just to be completely clear.
Canon Worm shows that Ascalon doesn't actually kill Dragon. It shuts her down, all functionality put on hold until somebody can work out why they were malfunctioning. This is why Teacher was able to revive her. Presuming canon Dragon did not lose her shard connection, this means that that connection still exists somewhere in Dragon's locked down files. Now, if only that connection could be moved to chibi-UD!Dragon....
Whether UDs can trigger mattering would need us to build a new UD, expose it to enough parahumans that it can pick up a bud, and then Trigger. This would not be a desirable thing to put even a fictional character through, so we're unlikely to ever see it. Unless SW has a "Candyland" style inspiration, that is.
Silently Watches
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- Right behind you
You deserve it. And Guardian Beast is a good pick.
I would treat Bardiche as an Intelligent Device with cross-specialization.
Have