Lex Sedet In Vertice: A Supervillain in the DCU CK2 quest

[Kkutlord]

It can go a few different ways. It would either be someone convincing someone to go through therapy and being there for them if they need it or it would be group therapy. Like if both Ivo and Marie were assigned to the action at the same time it would be group therapy. Ultimately it depends on the outcome of the rolls a fair bit. A Karl Pamela combination that was an amazing success could be something like they both get therapy and it helps, a good success would be just Karl with Pamela encouraging him, a minor success would be Karl blowing it off and Pamela going instead and a failure would be neither. There isn't a clear cut answer for it.

Generally I will prioritize that the hero unit that needs therapy more will get it if both are unable to do so. Does that clarify things? I can't quite answer how it would go down as it is dependent on the roll.

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Since it is a ??? Type action, would it be correct to assume there's a lot of variables? Like Cassandra's inability to verbally communicate probably making it even harder than just her low Diplomacy and stat malus.

 

[King crimson]

Your greatest hallmark, I think, is your consistency. You manage to create great output and ideas (I love the personal actions) with an overwhelming amount of choice. I would buy a video game by you. I would play a Mage the Ascenscion campaign run by you. Because you have that unholy combination of creativity and preparedness that can make you one of the greats; in fact, it's the same talents I like about Brandon Sanderson so much.

Your greatest weakness, I think, is the one you identified yourself; it is sometimes diffcult to become invested because your characters sometimes seem similar. But then again, you write a Quest; which, in my opinion, is more difficult than a novel. Additionally, some of your sentences or paragraphs seem.. stunted? They don't flow well. But eh, I'm not a native speaker; I better leave this call to people who have to interact with English each day.

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Thank you very much! I'm actually really glad to hear you enjoy the personal actions. I really appreciate the commentary.

I'll agree that a Quest is harder to write than a novel because you have complete control over a novel and where it goes. I have some experience with both and it is far easier to maintain distinction with characters when I can more clearly control their journey. With the quest I tend to hit a lot of the same beats due to not having a set direction for every character and as such I think they end up similar.

As for the English I'll actually agree there. It's a combination of two things in my opinion. The first and arguably the most critical is that I have points and beats that I want to get to but I struggle a bit connecting things or closing them off. As such while the text I write has great moments a lot of the connective tissue is in my opinion malformed in order to get to the bits I have planned. The second combination I think is a lack of grammatical punctuation. I have a lot of problems with grammar (due to the age at which I moved combined with being bilingual I never actually learned the proper way to do grammar with things like semicolons and stuff. I can scrape my way through commas but and such but the rest is lost to me). As such even though I vary the types of sentences I use they all appear the same lending some of them a stunted look. These two elements are I think the most consistent technical problem in my writing that occur when I am on a short deadline (I tend to bang out most updates in an hour or so). I do hope to get better at it though especially in work that doesn't have time constraints like this quest does.

Thank you for the commentary and critique. Even if I do not have an immediate solution to my flaws its always nice to know what is and isn't working.

Since it is a ??? Type action, would it be correct to assume there's a lot of variables? Like Cassandra's inability to verbally communicate probably making it even harder than just her low Diplomacy and stat malus.

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I don't know if Cassandra's inability to verbally communicate is the best thing to equate it but yes there are a lot of variables involved with the therapy option.

 

[King crimson]

The winning vote from last time is Plan Touch and Go. Well this is up. It is more than a little underwhelming in my opinion but it is just the beginning to something that hopefully will be much larger and more exciting. I do think it is beneath my usual level of quality but I wanted to get something up soon and I do think this is a good start to the larger advantage. Please be aware that there is a subvote that should be dealt with in plan format. Character interaction stuff is coming soon I promise.

Inside Markovia Part 1
Markovia is a rather idyllic country all things considered. The large meadows free from the familiar sprawl of urbanization made the entire countryside seem utterly different from what you were used to. If it weren't for the Markovian government's stringent restrictions on who could and couldn't enter the country as well as the fact that you had illegally entered the country in order to remove Whisper A'Daire's doomsday device from play than you could almost pretend like this was a vacation.

While being able to quietly note everything that went on in the country would have been nice you were on a strict time limit. As such you and those accompanying you swiftly made your way to the capital city. Markovia's capital was fairly underdeveloped with a large castle dominating the city. This castle was were the royal family was housed. It is likely were you would hide if you were Whisper and it was both the center of information in Markovia and the most well defensible position. However it was also possible that Whisper had ended up somewhere else. Furthermore you had no idea what Ra's Al Ghul was planning as while he had indicated that he would be going after Whisper on his on you had not seen any signs of the League of Shadows. On top of all of this there were some NATO forces in the area which while it had made infiltrating the country easier it did mean that there was yet another actor on stage for this bit.

Despite all of this you knew what to do. You had come for a specific purpose and you were going to achieve your goals. You had brought Mercy, Roxanne, and Cassandra with you along with fifty of your best men. You then turned to give your orders as you began this operation.

Markovian Plan subvote
You have come up with a plan to find Whisper A'Daire and figure out just how to best utilize the infiltration of Markovia. There is a one hour moratorium on voting and any vote not in plan format will be discounted. You can vote for as many options as you like but be aware that you must assign the individuals who will do this action. If an action is voted for and no individual is assigned to it the vote will be discounted. In Markovia you have 50 men, Roxanne Sutton, Cassandra Luthor, Mercy Graves and Lex Luthor to distribute to tasks as you wish.

[ ] [Plan] Break into the castle of the royal family to investigate what goes on inside
[ ] [Plan] Search the countryside for information
[ ] [Plan] Secure an escape route
[ ] [Plan] Search the city for information
[ ] [Plan] Get into contact with the NATO forces
[ ] [Plan] Investigate intercepted calls

 

[Negation]

[ ] [Plan] Break into the castle of the royal family to investigate what goes on inside

This is too risky. I'd hate to trigger the event early with no info and no prep.

[ ] [Plan] Search the countryside for information

Sounds like an exercise of "Where is My Cow?"

[ ] [Plan] Secure an escape route

Should do this just in case

[ ] [Plan] Search the city for information

Maybe? But Intergang goons are probably doing the same so it may tip them off.

[ ] [Plan] Get into contact with the NATO forces

??? This is a bit of a Mystry Box.

[ ] [Plan] Investigate intercepted calls

I favour this most. We are Cellphone King....How far is the LexCorp market reach here?

 

[Erumpet]

We can split up our group so this is what I am thinking
[ ] [Plan] Investigate intercepted calls
lets put Lex and Cass on this one their skills and trait would be good. also lets add ten men to be safe
[ ] [Plan] Break into the castle of the royal family to investigate what goes on inside
I think Mercy with a group of 15 men is large enough to fight if needed but small enough to go on a stealth mission
[ ] [Plan] Search the city for information
I would Put Roxanne with 20 men to comb the streets for info
[ ] [Plan] Secure an escape route
put 5 men on this
[ ] [Plan] Search the countryside for information
Put 5 men on this one (would be willing to change it to the NATO forces)

 

[King crimson]

The vote is now open

 

[drake_azathoth]

I am thinking we want to go at least buddy system on this one. Opposed rolls are very likely.

To be honest, I think at this point focusing on securing an escape route and investigating phone calls are a good bet.

 

[Simon_Jester]

OK, so.

Lex works well with, and gets along well with, all three heroines present (co-op score 1.7 or higher). Mercy and Roxanne both work well with our terrifying little Ninja Science Princess, Cassandra (co-op scores 1.3 and 1.4, respectively).

Notably, Mercy and Roxy get along, but don't work together that well. (co-op score 0.5) The relationship is summarized as:

"Roxanne gets along decently well with Mercy. Mercy has exasperatedly compared Roxanne to a hyperactive cocker spaniel with a death wish. They work together all right although they do sometimes squabble."

[I'm pretty sure a big part of the issue here isn't that they don't work together, it's that they have incompatible styles and personalities, so that even when they're trying to do the same thing, they approach the problem very differently and get in each other's way]

Now, if Cassandra were older (enough so to run projects herself) and not language-impaired, this would give us a lot more options. Sadly, she is neither of those things. Complications upon complications.

...

Now, there are two possibilities regarding Whisper's location. Either way we must consider that the royal family let NATO into the country in the first place. One possible explanation is that Whisper, like Lex and his team, is here without their knowledge or consent. Or, if she is a guest, has overstayed her welcome and is now a fugitive within Markovia. In that case, looking for her in the palace would be a complete waste of time and likely to get us caught.

The other possibility is that Whisper is here with the connivance of the royal family (or royal advisors), and that they have let NATO search the rest of the country as an exercise in misdirection, while keeping Whisper tucked away in some isolated wing of the palace served and secured by trustworthy, discreet retainers. In which case, looking for her anywhere BUT the palace would be a complete waste of time and risks getting us detected, especially if (as is likely) the Markovians are closely watching the NATO troops roaming their country.

We clearly need more information.

As noted, the castle is likely to be the most secure place in the country; speaking OOC it is probably guarded by one or more metahumans, and we have none of our own present in-country.

...

Let's look at our options.

[ ] [Plan] Break into the castle of the royal family to investigate what goes on inside
[ ] [Plan] Search the countryside for information
[ ] [Plan] Secure an escape route
[ ] [Plan] Search the city for information
[ ] [Plan] Get into contact with the NATO forces
[ ] [Plan] Investigate intercepted calls

(1) strikes me as pointless for now. If Whisper isn't in the castle, it's a wild goose chase that risks getting us in humiliating trouble. If she is, then we're underprepared to get in there and have no allies within the walls, which is a recipe for disaster. If Lex had become a master of the mystic arts and had all kinds of tools for personally infiltrating the place, or if Cass was an adult who could be trusted to ninja-infiltrate the place herself and not get caught, while being mature enough to understand what she was looking for, we could go for it... but in this timeline, that's not us. Fornow, leave the castle alone.

(2) and (4) are both potentially worthwhile in that we might learn things- but again, if Whisper is hiding in the palace with the connivance of the royal family or trusted royal advisors, they're not going to be very helpful. The risk of disaster is lower, though.

(3), (5), and (6) are actions that further other actions. They'll take time and resources, making them less rewarding- if we knew where A'Daire was, we could probably do better by just going straight after her. But we don't know that. So these are the very actions we should focus heropower and effort on first.

...

I think we should liaise with NATO, simply because we may need military backup (say, if Whisper has a small army of goons armed with better equipment than our goons). And because in the worst case, we may need the US government to exert pressure to get us out of the country if we get caught.

Having an escape route is probably a good idea. Note that it will probably be a lot harder for us to get our people out of the country if they're scattered widely across the countryside.

Investigating the calls is an obvious interesting option. Whisper A'Daire is clearly in coordination with Mannheim and other Intergang figures, so she's going to be one of the relatively few people regularly making international phone calls out of the isolationist and xenophobic nation of Markovia.

...

Now, Lex and Cassandra are the obvious choices for the intercepted calls, because of "Cell Phone Princess" and "Cell Phone King." Cassandra's ability to help may be... a bit uncertain... because call intercepts are about as 'language' a task as can be imagined, but hopefully she'll find ways to contribute. If nothing else it keeps her close to Lex's side, which is good because parental. And also because if we get jumped by attackers, Cassandra is going to be a very alarming outside context problem for them. Little girls capable of fighting on the same level as low-tier metahumans are probably not something they'll be prepared for.

Liaising with NATO is a task that requires tact and diplomacy, which Mercy rather lacks. Conversely, planning the escape route requires the ability to anticipate failure and accurately estimate the limits of what we'll be able to do in a crisis, traits Roxanne rather lacks. This suggests a division of labor:

...

[] Plan Groundwork
-[] [Plan] Secure an escape route: Mercy and 25 personnel
-[] [Plan] Get into contact with the NATO forces: Roxanne and 10 personnel
-[] [Plan] Investigate intercepted calls: Lex, Cassandra, and 15 personnel

(EDITING plan based on later revealed information about the effectiveness of personnel; more on that below)

...

Mercy may well need staff to get the escape route set up. It's the kind of task she's likely to handle with professionalism, and unlike Roxanne, we don't have to worry about her leaving out the failsafes and backup measures to "make things more fun."

Roxanne shouldn't need very many people to contact NATO since their troops are moving around the country openly.

We may need people to run down rumors for us and scope out physical locations corresponding to some of the calls we intercept.

 

[Bookreader]

[X] Plan Groundwork

 

[Negation]

[X] Plan Groundwork

 

[Lockheart]

@King crimson
Are personnel purely narrative, or do they add to the roll?

 

[King crimson]

@King crimson
Are personnel purely narrative, or do they add to the roll?

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They can add to any rolls that take place. Rolls are not guaranteed but they can happen when you go up against a different unit

 

[Erumpet]

They can add to any rolls that take place.

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I don't suppose you could tell us what how much does the troops add to their assignment?

 

[King crimson]

I don't suppose you could tell us what how much does the troops add to their assignment?

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A single security force member adds 4 in every task but learning, five do 8, ten do 12, twenty do 14, twenty five do 16, 30 does 18 thirty five 19, forty 20, forty five 21 and all fifty give a com phones total of 22. I tend to move numbers between the two points to the average of the two markers it is between rounded down

That make sense?

 

[Simon_Jester]

Hm, so there's diminishing returns for throwing more warm bodies at a problem. VERY SHARP diminishing returns for numbers greater than ten. There is almost no incentive to assign more than ten people to a single task, as opposed to assigning multiple tasks and putting ten people each on them, unless there is a very high risk of something bad happening or of running into direct opposition.

Editing the plan accordingly; I was previously basing my assumptions on pure intuition. Also, it is a double-plus pity here that Cassandra is a child and can't lead her own ten-person squad; we'll have to bear this in mind for similar missions in future.

[X] Plan Groundwork
-[X] [Plan] Secure an escape route: Mercy and 10 personnel
-[X] [Plan] Get into contact with the NATO forces: Roxanne and 10 personnel
-[X] [Plan] Investigate intercepted calls: Lex, Cassandra, and 10 personnel
-[X] [Plan] Search the city for information: Remaining 20 personnel

Basically, because it's pointless to give Mercy an extra 15 people, or Lex and Cassandra an extra 5 people beyond the initial 10, I'm taking our remaining people and having them search the city. I have to assume that our agents are competent enough not to be easily caught right away (or we're screwed no matter what we do). But I prefer to keep our forces concentrated in the city until we have liaison with NATO and an escape route, simply because if things go south we don't want to have scattered penny packets of people all over the country. A 20-person team isn't great for doing things on their own in the face of opposition, but is at least capable of mediocre results we can hope, even without a hero unit.

 

[Simon_Jester]

@King crimson

That cutoff at ten minions for a +12 to twenty minions for a +14 is really steep. At hgher minion counts, adding five more minions is worth +2 on the die roll. And below 10 miions adding five minions is worth +4 (say, to go from five to ten), but between 10 and 20 you only get +1 on the die roll for every five minions added.

Is the effect of making it really inefficient to use groups of minions larger than 10 intentional?

Because if you want things to slope off more smoothly so that diminishing returns kick in more gradually, you might try...

A single security force member adds 4 in every task but learning, five do 8, ten do 12, fifteen do 15, twenty do 18, twenty five do 20, 30 does 22 thirty five 23, forty 24, forty five 25 and all fifty give a com phones total of 26.

That way, what ends up happening is that the first minion is worth +4, the next four are worth a total of +4 more, the five after that are worth +4. Then diminishing returns starts to kick in; the next five added, and the five after that are only worth +3 and +3. Each five after that is a constant +2.

Your other option is 'logarithmic' returns, where doubling the minion count provides a flat bonus (say, +4 on the die roll), but that has much the same effect of making it almost worthless to assign one group of 32 instead of two groups of 16 to separate tasks.

 

[King crimson]

Is the effect of making it really inefficient to use groups of minions larger than 10 intentional?

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No. It was an attempt at balancing and proof that I cannot do math well. I'll keep the initial scaling for intrigue actions that involve stealth and diplomacy actions which can suffer from too many cooks in the kitchen but use this

A single security force member adds 4 in every task but learning, five do 8, ten do 12, fifteen do 15, twenty do 18, twenty five do 20, 30 does 22 thirty five 23, forty 24, forty five 25 and all fifty give a com phones total of 26.

Click to shrink...

For martial and stewardship actions. It's probably a bit more complicated than it needs to be but so far I'll mostly shift over to using the method you've provided (none of the actions are ones that would be penalized with the exception of contacting the NATO forces)

 

[ThatGuyWithIdeas]

[X] Plan Groundwork
-[X] [Plan] Secure an escape route: Mercy and 10 personnel
-[X] [Plan] Get into contact with the NATO forces: Roxanne and 10 personnel
-[X] [Plan] Investigate intercepted calls: Lex, Cassandra, and 10 personnel
-[X] [Plan] Search the city for information: Remaining 20 personnel

 

[Simon_Jester]

No. It was an attempt at balancing and proof that I cannot do math well. I'll keep the initial scaling for intrigue actions that involve stealth and diplomacy actions which can suffer from too many cooks in the kitchen...

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I think Diplomacy should be pretty neutral. The reason to send a bunch of goons along with your envoy is if you're worried about your envoy being attacked or poisoned or something (that is, if you're worried that someone will take your attempt to roll a Diplomacy check and forcibly change it into a Martial/Intrigue check).

So beyond assigning a small competent staff to make sure your envoy's clothes are clean and that they make their appointment and that they have a driver to park the car and everything, adding more people might very well have NO effect on negotiations, past the first five or so. Extra people would only be valuable if you're worried that the envoy needs protective bodyguards... Or if you're doing the equivalent of opening a whole embassy or suing a major corporation or something, and need a ton of warm bodies to process the paperwork and handle staffing issues.

It'd be something like:
1 minion +4,
5 minions +8,
10 minions +10,
20 minions +12,
30 minions +14,
40 minions +16,
50 minions +18,

and so on.. If you want good Diplomacy results from face-to-face negotiations, you send a better envoy, not more mooks.

Again, there are exceptions where having a large staff actually matters- but you'd need a large staff of clerks or lawyers or something, not security agents.

...

Similar arguments apply for infiltration actions. Having a small team ready to help you extract or to create a diversion is valuable. Having 40 people hanging around means the extra personnel spend almost all their time covering their tracks, so yeah, no good result there.

For martial and stewardship actions. It's probably a bit more complicated than it needs to be...

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It's actually literally exactly the same level of complexity as what you were already doing. I just changed a couple of numbers. Had 15 people doing +2 better than you had them, and groups of 20 or larger doing +4 better. The analysis is a bit complicated (applied high school algebra), but the analysis just exists to balance the resulting rules.

but so far I'll mostly shift over to using the method you've provided (none of the actions are ones that would be penalized with the exception of contacting the NATO forces)

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Yeah, contacting NATO is that kind of thing. I'd honestly send Roxy plus like two people to make sure someone's carrying the luggage and that Roxy has someone to keep her from getting too distracted, except that she might actually run into trouble and a squad of goons to provide escort could be helpful in that scenario.

But if you actually are going to my suggestion, then I'm going to re-revise my plan...

---

EDITED due to changes in rules for how minions work:

[X] Plan Groundwork
-[X] [Plan] Secure an escape route: Mercy and 15 personnel
-[X] [Plan] Get into contact with the NATO forces: Roxanne and 5 personnel
-[X] [Plan] Investigate intercepted calls: Lex, Cassandra, and 10 personnel
-[X] [Plan] Search the city for information: Remaining 20 personnel

Since this makes more personnel actually effective past the first ten, I figure putting more people on Mercy's action (where they'll help) at the expense of Roxanne's action (where they won't) is desirable.

@ThatGuyWithIdeas , note the change.

 

[ThatGuyWithIdeas]

Noted the change to the plan. I'll vote again just to be sure that my vote is registered for the latest version of the plan.

[X] Plan Groundwork

 

[King crimson]

It's actually literally exactly the same level of complexity as what you were already doing

Click to shrink...

Your proposed plan is not more complicated than the initial one but the fact that I now am dealing with multiple systems as opposed to one is what makes it more complicated. Ideally I'd find a single system that works for all options as opposed to the conglomeration I am using now. The more steps I add to calculating results (even if it's as simple as checking the type of problem so I can use the right equation) the more chance there is of me making a mistake.

I meant to comment that the multiple parallel systems were complicated not your proposed adjustment. I apologise for how misleading my formatting was

 

[Simon_Jester]

Your proposed plan is not more complicated than the initial one but the fact that I now am dealing with multiple systems as opposed to one is what makes it more complicated. Ideally I'd find a single system that works for all options as opposed to the conglomeration I am using now. The more steps I add to calculating results (even if it's as simple as checking the type of problem so I can use the right equation) the more chance there is of me making a mistake.

I meant to comment that the multiple parallel systems were complicated not your proposed adjustment. I apologise for how misleading my formatting was

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Hm.

I think what you need is two tables. No more than two.

...

One is for "the available type of mooks are competent at helping with this task." This applies when the mooks are directly relevant to the task (i.e. soldier mooks in a battle, lawyer mooks when suing somebody, scientist mooks when researching things). The mooks are plausibly capable of directly helping. Now, "too many cooks" still applies; this is a superheroic setting where one very talented individual really can succeed where hundreds of ordinary people would fail. Where an entire city's police force can't capture the Riddler, but Batman can. Where Lex Luthor can singlehandedly out-invent entire corporate departments with dozens or hundreds of Ph.Ds on payroll.

Depending on circumstances, you might apply an arbitrary +10% or +20% or -50% or whatever to all Mook Bonuses on the die roll. Or not. Depends.

...

The other is for "the available mooks aren't very useful." This applies when the mooks don't have the relevant skills (i.e. lawyer mooks in a battle), don't have the tools to help (i.e. soldier mooks but you're fighting a ghost and about all they can do is yell "LOOK OUT" before you get clocked with a big blob of ectoplasm), or when the task is inherently one where a huge team is counterproductive or at least ineffective (negotiating with an official, sneaking into a fortress).

No bonuses really apply because the entire point is that your mooks aren't actually very helpful here. Having one or two along so there's somebody to hold equipment, watch the back door, or make sure the laundry gets done is desirable, but you'll be hitting diminishing returns much faster and much harder on tasks like this.

How does this sound?

 

[Gumiho]

[X] Plan Groundwork
-[X] [Plan] Secure an escape route: Mercy and 15 personnel
-[X] [Plan] Get into contact with the NATO forces: Roxanne and 5 personnel
-[X] [Plan] Investigate intercepted calls: Lex, Cassandra, and 10 personnel
-[X] [Plan] Search the city for information: Remaining 20 personnel

 

[Lockheart]

[X] Plan Groundwork
-[X] [Plan] Secure an escape route: Mercy and 15 personnel
-[X] [Plan] Get into contact with the NATO forces: Roxanne and 5 personnel
-[X] [Plan] Investigate intercepted calls: Lex, Cassandra, and 10 personnel
-[X] [Plan] Search the city for information: Remaining 20 personnel

 

[Negation]

-[X] [Plan] Get into contact with the NATO forces: Roxanne and 5 personnel

Click to shrink...

I can only imagine the look on the NATO Commander's face when Roxy shows up riding her rocket accompanied by dudes in exo-suits.