Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

because full blown war is costly and its estimated winters standing forces are like 40k? Losing thousands of soldiers when the white council is already at war with them isn't the best bet when they can just wait first.

Also you know mab clearly somewhat masterminded the events in canon to end up in their extinction. Not completely of course but it was definitely a factor in their complete destruction.
We're never given hard army numbers. The fey are global powers for a reason and it isn't because everyone else is too nice to want their seat.


The Fae are immortal, and take a long view of grudges.
That doesnt mean they dont settle them.
They were also politically on fire for a lot of the war because Nemesis burned centuries of resources to mess with them.

It had one of the Summer queens in thrall, and even under normal circumstances Summer is supposed to keep Winter from playing internal security.

I don't think it's coincidence that the end of that plot resulted in the fey beginning to move on the Reds.
 
Two of my favorite moments in this quest so far were just little bits of background kindness we encountered early on.

At the beginning of Arc 2 we learn that Mom told our siblings not to bring up the creepiness of our infernal powers because it might make us sad.
Then later on Harry finds out Mouse has text-to-speech because Mouse tries sticking up for Harry's sense of humor.

Just a couple little bits of love that aren't center stage or monumentally important for anything, but they make me smile.
 
Supernaturals could just as easily point out that every Outsider summoning from beyond th Gates requires a mortal magic user.
And so mortals cant be trusted
I know it's a joke but mortals don't typically even know how to do that without supernatural meddling to begin with and the Fae don't exactly have the option of killing all mortal off. 😂

It's also possible that they've found a way around that bottleneck in Quest and we don't know yet. DP hinted that something odd was going on in that respect way earlier.

A Red is not the Red Court as a whole, and as both Changes demonstrated in canon, and th Vegas affair demonstrated here, Reds are not a monolith
I wouldnt trust a Red without guarantees, but the Sin-Eater had the Dragon in service for close to a century of peace.
Point but it's a consistent enough issue with them in general that after a certain point it really does not matter.

1)We've only been around for less than a year. If other people are trying shit, we might not know
Its canon in WoD that at least one Yama King has dealings with their equivalent of the Outside, for example.
I was referring to the books here but this is a thing yes.

2)Summer almost decapitated the Red Court last year during Proven Guilty.
Because they invaded.. and summoned Outsiders in Fairie. That wasn't them being proactive to a perceived issue that was them responding to an invasion. They literally had to.

Then there was Mab providing Harry sufficient backing to attack the Reds in their own place of power in Changes.
The Fae are immortal, and take a long view of grudges.
That doesnt mean they dont settle them.
Taking advantage of a situation isn't being proactive about a proven threat. Lea got N'fested in Grave peril from the Reds and the following plotline didn't happen till a decade or so later. It's not settling a grudge it's a response to a proven active threat that's missing.

Lea is supposed to be the strongest after Mab you don't wait a decade after to respond to her getting taken out of commission. What a glaring weak spot if that really is the reasoning.

Edit: One of my paragraphs got misplaced somehow. Corrections.
 
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We're never given hard army numbers. The fey are global powers for a reason and it isn't because everyone else is too nice to want their seat.



They were also politically on fire for a lot of the war because Nemesis burned centuries of resources to mess with them.

It had one of the Summer queens in thrall, and even under normal circumstances Summer is supposed to keep Winter from playing internal security.

I don't think it's coincidence that the end of that plot resulted in the fey beginning to move on the Reds.
Not that I remember the actual number but dresden when first seeing the gates gave an estimate number for winters forces that the white council had. Which are probably fairly accurate. don't remember the exact numbers though
 
Arc 14 Post 27: The Sound of Silence
The Sound of Silence

18th of February 2007 A.D.

You come out of the choppy seas next to a golf course of all things, one that looks like in greener times it would belong on a Windows desktop with its gently rolling hills and carefully manicured trees. In wintertime especially at night it just looks sad, though not as sad as the handful of customers some fast-talking salesman had sold on the idea that 'February is just as good as June' or the like.

Lost 2 Essence -> Now at 10/18 (ATP and Excelency)

The handful of people still wandering by the water front have no real interest in looking left or right, being more into each other, the view, or in a few cases their phones. Like the world's most polite phantom you make your way past the sign that reads Craigentinny Golf Course and look around for that holy ground of tourists everywhere, a toilet, not the most glamorous place to be pulling a small army out of but it's private and easy to.... Oh shit, is that an elementary school? Thank God above it's Sunday and late, there shouldn't be any kids in there. Do they have Sunday extracurricular in the UK? Sadly the demon in your head does not have any insight into the matter, but you are soon distracted by the sight of a gym right next to the school. Bingo.

Normally you'd have to force the door, but there's a security guard inside, though it isn't going to help him much that he's looking right at the door. Well either way he's definitely not going into the empty bathroom over the next ten minutes.

Click-clack, you are locked inside, the music starts to play everything's going swimmingly right up until it's not. The music cuts off to sudden oppressive silence. For one absurd moment you think the speakers broke then replaced with worry.

"OK Clippy?" you type.

"Cognition circuits unharmed, lack of aural projection surprising, suspected thaumic interference."

Do they know I'm in here? you wonder. Or do they just know I need music?

Something large crashes into the building, not heard but felt through the soles of your boots. An answer of sorts, though that's not the worst of it. The spell of silence is something you can rip apart sure, but much like high pressure air it will keep seeping in through even the smallest gap and you cannot focus on both holding it back and opening a gate in your soul.

Wait... air? Maybe I could just seal myself in here. Assuming they don't know where I am in the building, which seems a fair bet since the Sight cannot see through walls and that's most the only thing they have that can track me, I could just hunker down here, play the song as low as it will go while I bring the cavalry.

The trouble of course is if I guess wrong I'll either get hit in the middle of opening the door or worse we all walk into a storm of curses the moment we step back onto Earth.

What does Molly do?

[] Seal herself in and keep opening the door, once every one is here you'll have the chance to deal with these 'music critics'

[] If they want an ambush you're willing to spring it, sword first

[] Write in


OOC: I can't post the enemy rolls right now since it would give spoilers away so I'll just do Molly's.
 
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nevermind I found it "It is the Winter Court's job to defend the Outer Gates from Outsiders. and the White Council estimates Mab's troop count to be about fifty thousand."
So I was 10 thousand off. Which if I remember correctly Mab said is about right well not in those words. Given the actual count is way higher if we count the outer gates.
 
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nevermind I found it "It is the Winter Court's job to defend the Outer Gates from Outsiders. and the White Council estimates Mab's troop count to be about fifty thousand."
So I was 10 thousand off. Which if I remember correctly Mab said is about right well not in those words. Given the actual count is way higher if we count the outer gates.
If your going to post a quote like that I'd be helpful to tell us where you got it exactly.
 
If your going to post a quote like that I'd be helpful to tell us where you got it exactly.
no its in the book he found out about the gates so if someone wants to bother finding it then thats their own prerogative I neither have the books anymore or am awake enough to even attempt it. But find the chapter he first saw the gates and you should find the statement.
 
no its in the book he found out about the gates so if someone wants to bother finding it then thats their own prerogative I neither have the books anymore or am awake enough to even attempt it. But find the chapter he first saw the gates and you should find the statement.
Where did you even get the exact wording of a statement if not from a page?
 
Where did you even get the exact wording of a statement if not from a page?
google and I knew for a fact there was a statement because I remembered it in my sleep deprived addled brain from 10 years ago when I read it. :p
Like I know people would question the source but I don't care enough to search further. go find chapter 34 im sure its there.
 
Not that I remember the actual number but dresden when first seeing the gates gave an estimate number for winters forces that the white council had. Which are probably fairly accurate. don't remember the exact numbers though
Going to need a cite, cause I don't see why Harry would know that. Especially when that scene shows them using more troops than that at the gate itself.

The fey don't make public budget reports and you can't get a satellite view of the nevernever. Finding good numbers on something like that sounds like a difficult proposition IC.

You could try divination, but Winter is huge and unless you have the crown I don't think it's a great idea to systemically point spying spells at the local super power's military facilities.

That could be Mab using the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy by implication to make herself look good.
She's not perfect, but she is pretty good at this sort of thing. See when she set up Nicodemus to murder his own daughter. Also the thing with Changes. Sure she was taking advantage of a situation, but why shouldn't she if it serves her purposes? Higher backing made a significant difference to that line of events and the outcome we saw.

I was also referring to Summer here. If I recall the timeline correctly the thing where they almost killed the red's leadership outright happened relatively shortly after Harry killed the Nemesis'd Summer Lady. Both Ladies being subverted like they were resulting in deadlock isn't that big of a stretch, nor is their removal letting the fey move more freely again.
 
Going to need a cite, cause I don't see why Harry would know that. Especially when that scene shows them using more troops than that at the gate itself.

The fey don't make public budget reports and you can't get a satellite view of the nevernever. Finding good numbers on something like that sounds like a difficult proposition IC.

You could try divination, but Winter is huge and unless you have the crown I don't think it's a great idea to systemically point spying spells at the local super power's military facilities.


She's not perfect, but she is pretty good at this sort of thing. See when she set up Nicodemus to murder his own daughter. Also the thing with Changes. Sure she was taking advantage of a situation, but why shouldn't she if it serves her purposes? Higher backing made a significant difference to that line of events and the outcome we saw.

I was also referring to Summer here. If I recall the timeline correctly the thing where they almost killed the red's leadership outright happened relatively shortly after Harry killed the Nemesis'd Summer Lady. Both Ladies being subverted like they were resulting in deadlock isn't that big of a stretch, nor is their removal letting the fey move more freely again.
harry literally says its an estimate that the council has in the same chapter. It of course does not include those at the gates. I highly doubt the council whose had a thousand years or so dealing with the courts doesn't have some decent info.
 
I think we've seen red court sorcerers summoning Outsiders, and they're not mortals.
We havent. Not in canon or here.
I suspect the closest you can come are half-Red sorcerers, who probably still count as mortals.

We're never given hard army numbers. The fey are global powers for a reason and it isn't because everyone else is too nice to want their seat.
We are told in Cold Days that the White Council thinks Winter has only 50k troops.
This is when Harry sees Winter's armies at the Outer Gates and realizes just how many troops they have at the Outer Gates.

This is the White Council's assessment, and the Council is not all-knowing, even if they like to put on airs.
I doubt the Gates are the only place Winter have troops.
====
I don't think it's coincidence that the end of that plot resulted in the fey beginning to move on the Reds.
Yeah, political paralysis was certainly a factor.
And it was something the Reds were counting on, since they were the ones who helped Nfect Lea.

Point but it's a consistent enough issue with them in general that after a certain point it really does not matter.
They could say much the same about mortals
:V
Because they invaded.. and summoned Outsiders in Fairie. That wasn't them being proactive to a perceived issue that was them responding to an invasion. They literally had to.
This is inaccurate.

It was a planned ambush of the Red Court army that had attacked a White Council facility.
Lily planned it with Maeve, for that matter; Maeve used a time warp to isolate Winter for some time, allowing Lily to pull Summer's border forces off the border with Winter and go beat on the Red Court for an evening.

Yes, Maeve was Nfested at the time.
Yes, it means the Outsiders were willing to sacrifice the Red Court and their war right then in order to get an in with Lily.
Remember, Evil will happily backstab other Evil for advantage.
Taking advantage of a situation isn't being proactive about a proven threat. Lea got N'fested in Grave peril from the Reds and the following plotline didn't happen till a decade or so later. It's not settling a grudge it's a response to a proven active threat that's missing.

Lea is supposed to be the strongest after Mab you don't wait a decade after to respond to her getting taken out of commission. What a glaring weak spot if that really is the reasoning.

Edit: One of my paragraphs got misplaced somehow. Corrections.
The Fae are immortal, and do not work to mortal time frames. Same with a lot of other supernaturals.
This is a point that is repeatedly made in the Dresden Files, when Nicodemus holds a favor for a thousand years before cashing it in, where the Starborn cycles go on for centuries and millenia.

Why would they rush? They have time, and allies to consult.
And both Courts had infiltrators to deal with before they could get loud.
The entire period of the books has only taken 12-14 years so far; thats not long by even mortal timelines.

There's a lot of shit happening that our PoV character isnt seeing in canon. Keep that in mind.
 
Just make a circle molly. Its literally a nigh perfect defense against all magic. And anything supernatural can't get in

Just make a circle and summon them. Its almost no risk.

Like circles are super OP.
 
We havent. Not in canon or here.
I suspect the closest you can come are half-Red sorcerers, who probably still count as mortals.


We are told in Cold Days that the White Council thinks Winter has only 50k troops.
This is when Harry sees Winter's armies at the Outer Gates and realizes just how many troops they have at the Outer Gates.

This is the White Council's assessment, and the Council is not all-knowing, even if they like to put on airs.
I doubt the Gates are the only place Winter have troops.
====

Yeah, political paralysis was certainly a factor.
And it was something the Reds were counting on, since they were the ones who helped Nfect Lea.


They could say much the same about mortals
:V

This is inaccurate.

It was a planned ambush of the Red Court army that had attacked a White Council facility.
Lily planned it with Maeve, for that matter; Maeve used a time warp to isolate Winter for some time, allowing Lily to pull Summer's border forces off the border with Winter and go beat on the Red Court for an evening.

Yes, Maeve was Nfested at the time.
Yes, it means the Outsiders were willing to sacrifice the Red Court and their war right then in order to get an in with Lily.
Remember, Evil will happily backstab other Evil for advantage.

The Fae are immortal, and do not work to mortal time frames. Same with a lot of other supernaturals.
This is a point that is repeatedly made in the Dresden Files, when Nicodemus holds a favor for a thousand years before cashing it in, where the Starborn cycles go on for centuries and millenia.

Why would they rush? They have time, and allies to consult.
And both Courts had infiltrators to deal with before they could get loud.
The entire period of the books has only taken 12-14 years so far; thats not long by even mortal timelines.

There's a lot of shit happening that our PoV character isnt seeing in canon. Keep that in mind.
I doubt winter is hiding multiple 50k armies out there in the nevernever uju. I mean the white councils estimates of outside gates troops being 50k can obviously be off by up to even 10k or something. But do you think the white council thats been dealing with fae almost just after the current courts inceptions hasn't traded for info or found out some things over time? Asides the fight between winter and summer is constant if they had so much more just hiding out besides what the council estimates they'd have won against summer presumably. Also the senior council obviously knows about the outer gates the estimated power of the winter court obviously excludes the gates for both security and the obvious reasons the numbers there don't matter elsewhere.
 
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Going to need a cite, cause I don't see why Harry would know that. Especially when that scene shows them using more troops than that at the gate itself.
This was in Cold Days, when Harry went to the Outer Gates.
Its explicitly framed as the White Council's estimates, not objective truth, and is immediately shown to be wrong in that scene.
So you can take it as a lower limit.
I was also referring to Summer here. If I recall the timeline correctly the thing where they almost killed the red's leadership outright happened relatively shortly after Harry killed the Nemesis'd Summer Lady. Both Ladies being subverted like they were resulting in deadlock isn't that big of a stretch, nor is their removal letting the fey move more freely again.
No it was in Proven Guilty.
Specifically June 2006, last year, just after we returnd from Arctis Tor. After Lily left Molly and Dresden at the beginning of this quest, she and Fix would have gone to rejoin the Summer army she commandeered and gone to war.
 
Given if fae followed normal breeding I totally would expect winter to have way more than 50k for their forces. But seeing as they don't openly have millions and a thriving super kingdom of tens of millions of near immortal beings I'm just gonna assume there's a limit for some mystical reason.

But I think uju expecting them to be dramatically wrong about their projections to be weird when they have the fucking gatekeeper on call and have been dealing with fae for over a thousand years. Not that I expect to have an accurate number within the exact thousands.

Edit: Also is it really wrong when the senior council obviously accounted for the outer gates?
 
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Rolls
ATP
*enemy rolls hidden*
How do they know we're here or what we're doing then?

Provocation for that charm is supposed to be pretty immediate and personal, not strategic. Most people would find having a gun pointed at them alarming, but that's not enough to trigger the charm.

They shouldn't even be able to roll to resist unless we do something to interact with them and that interaction is personally distressing.

If the standard is just something the target knows in dangerous to them then AtP should be broken by an enemy seeing Molly standing around when they're aware she's hunting them, which is clearly not the intent of the charm.
No it was in Proven Guilty.
Specifically June 2006, last year, just after we returnd from Arctis Tor. After Lily left Molly and Dresden at the beginning of this quest, she and Fix would have gone to rejoin the Summer army she commandeered and gone to war
By fey timescales that is a quick turnaround.
 
Did enemies of our play our's favorite music to summon us? Because I am having trouble making sense of this update.
 
How do they know we're here or what we're doing then?

Provocation for that charm is supposed to be pretty immediate and personal, not strategic. Most people would find having a gun pointed at them alarming, but that's not enough to trigger the charm.

They shouldn't even be able to roll to resist unless we do something to interact with them and that interaction is personally distressing.

If the standard is just something the target knows in dangerous to them then AtP should be broken by an enemy seeing Molly standing around when they're aware she's hunting them, which is clearly not the intent of the charm.

By fey timescales that is a quick turnaround.

See McCoy in the last update the Sight, directed from a distance though thaumaturgic means. Having to roll against insanity is a immediate and personal danger.
 
This is inaccurate.

It was a planned ambush of the Red Court army that had attacked a White Council facility.
Lily planned it with Maeve, for that matter; Maeve used a time warp to isolate Winter for some time, allowing Lily to pull Summer's border forces off the border with Winter and go beat on the Red Court for an evening.
Again. All of this was in response to an attack from the Reds. Summer couldn't attack without leaving themselves open to Winter and vice versa. Lily and Maeve worked together using an opportunity Harry opened up so they could respond. That wasn't them being proactive it was a planned response to an invasion so they could respond at all.

Why would they rush? They have time, and allies to consult.
Because Winter's offensive power was notably crippled and the faction responsible could possibly pull of a similar feats via Outsider wildcard action again while they leave them to it for a decade as they get more and more involved with Outsiders.

There's a lot of shit happening that our PoV character isnt seeing in canon. Keep that in mind.
A catch all cop out you constantly throw in. I'm not paying this any mind anymore.
 
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