Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[Artemis1992]

Yes, Outer Gates are a shinma, speciifically Shinma Nirakara (also, inititally, Creation was infinite in size):

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That is possible, but not certain.

The Outer Gates may or may not be the very definition of the separation between reality and not-reality, or they might just be a defense-mechanism build on that border.

Once upon a time Adrian was the border of Creation, but that did not make him the conceptual separation between Creation and Wyld, just the Primordial defending it.

 

[firefrog600]

That is possible, but not certain.

The Outer Gates may or may not be the very definition of the separation between reality and not-reality, or they might just be a defense-mechanism build on that border.

Once upon a time Adrian was the border of Creation, but that did not make him the conceptual separation between Creation and Wyld, just the Primordial defending it.

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there's a primordial named adrian?

 

[OctarineShrike]

there's a primordial named adrian?

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That is Adorjan before fetich death

 

[firefrog600]

That is Adorjan before fetich death

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Well its not the great primordial steve at least.

 

[uju32]

Then Ivy shoots down this option, if she thinks it's not viable. The vote is not presenting this as "we do it this way, or no way". It's "I also have this idea, let's discuss it". In order for the best solution to be found, all options need to be weighted.

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Just raising some suggestions erodes trust and credibility.
You're always going to side-eye the dude who raises murder as a potential solution to a business dispute, even if he's only mentioning it as an option.

In an exalted crossover shinma pretty much have to still exist, as they define the setting existing. Not Creation, but the overall setting. Here is how shinma are described in the fair folk book:

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Not necessarily. Different Age, different physical rules and cosmological constants.
The existence of the shinma was never going to be a given; the fact that they're still here gives us some hard data to work with
Even though the shinma make my head hurt.

Shinma are Azathoths. Blind idiot gods that define the underlying concepts needed for something to arise to define existence. Tools needed to make tools needed to make the concept of tools.

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Yes, Outer Gates are a shinma, speciifically Shinma Nirakara (also, inititally, Creation was infinite in size):

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Point of correction:
No, Creation was never infinite. Chaos/the Wyld allegedly was, but not Creation.

This is the part Ivy was horrified about:

Spoiler

Cost: None; Mins: Heart 1, Essence 1;
Type: Simple
Keywords: Unshaped-only
Duration: Until terminated
Prerequisite Charms: None
Only technically considered a Charm at all, this power is really more of a plot device. Crossing through the shinma Nirakara at the Gateway of Sundraprisha has no cost. When the unshaped raksha's ruling Emanation activates this Charm, the Chaos
Lord's Heart Grace is reduced to 4. All of its other Graces shatter, and each of its Emanations other than its ruling Emanation dies instantly. All of the waypoints under the unshaped's control collapse and are sucked into the ruling Emanation, and a new
shaped raksha coalesces around it. The unshaped raksha's power condenses into new Graces and forms a coherent matrix of Wyld energy. Although the unshaped has wide latitude in choosing the ultimate structure of its shaped form, it is limited by a specific template that, as a practical matter, follows the guidelines for character creation outlined in Chapter Three.
In other words, activating this Charm allows the unshaped to "create a noble raksha character" under the normal character-creation rules for making noble characters, subject to the following modifications. First, the newly shaped raksha, as stated previously, has a Heart Grace of 4. Second, he automatically gains four free dots in the Birth Background. Finally, for every dot by which the unshaped raksha's original Heart Grace was reduced to reach the four-dot level, the shaped raksha gains 10 additional bonus points. The unshaped raksha has the option of reducing its Heart Grace to 3, gaining 10 more bonus points, but unshaped raksha never reduce themselves to below that. The advantages of 10 extra bonus points are simply not worth becoming a commoner, even a heroic one.
Once the Charm is activated, the unshaped becomes a shaped noble raksha for all purposes. He can use Assumption Charms and even acquire permanent mutations. He can enter Creation with appropriate protection. He can use Charms that have the Shaped-Only keyword on himself. As long as the raksha does not gain any permanent mutations, he retains the option of ending this Charm and becoming unshaped once more. To do so, the raksha must enter an unoccupied waypoint in the Deep Wyld, obtain ownership over it, and succeed in a Cup-shaping roll against a difficulty equal to his own permanent Essence. If the roll is successful, the raksha becomes unshaped once more. A raksha with a permanent mutation of any sort is incapable of passing back through the Gateway of Sundraprisha.
Even after becoming unshaped again, the raksha does not necessarily become the same unshaped he was before. Instead, the unshaped raksha possesses a new Heart Grace (rated at 5) whose Emanation is based on the personality and appearance it had while shaped, rather than that of the prior Heart Grace. The unshaped also acquires four new Graces, each of which is initially rated at 2, and the unshaped can distribute a number of dots equal to (the permanent Essence of the prior shaped raksha + 5) among those Graces. As the unshaped does so, four new Emanations come into existence, each of whom has the traits of a noble raksha with a Heart Grace of 3, plus 10 experience points per dot of permanent Essence the raksha had while shaped. The unshaped's Heart Emanation retains all of the shaped raksha's former memories but has little emotional connection to them. The other Emanations have no memories of shaped life.
Any shaped raksha character without permanent mutations can pass back through the Gateway of Sundraprisha and become unshaped. By doing so, however, the raksha ceases to be a playable character. Furthermore, even if a player's raksha character becomes unshaped and then becomes shaped again, the reshaped character is a completely new character unrelated in anyway to the prior shaped life except through
shared history. Basically, for a shaped raksha, crossing back through Nirakara is suicide in every way that matters.

That's a native power of all Unshaped, their basic charm that some manner of working on par with salinan removed from them somehow. The implication is that Unshaped cannot become shaped by their own power, like they could previously, and, perhaps even more importantly: shaped cannot become unshaped again like they could back in the Age of Legends.

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Thanks for pointing that out.
Something like that is rather beyond Salinan working shit.

The Salinan Working took advantage of the cosmic infrastructure of Creation to affect shit inside Creation and was primarily targeted at humans. Whatever changed the basic nature of the Unshaped would have needed to reach outside Creation to the entirety of the allegedly infinite Wyld and all the entities who lived there.

Thats a very different tier of power and knowledge. Even Primordials dont have that sort of power and reach.
Sounds like White God/Creator Deity things.

 

[Degorium]

@uju32 The salinan working or most likely solar 3 workings that were interlinked via lesser workings to be able to capture all signs of sorcery and directly encode them into creation which means they affected the entirety of the metaphysical setting which extends to the wyld.
A working or series of workings from a being strong enough to create angels could definitely affect the entire metaphysical makeup of every unshaped and wyld entity in existence or whatever comes into so.

Heck God may have done it to save his burgeoning creation because of the fairies are able to take on identity and then immediately try to dissolve his creation while he's trying to build it then they can damage really important infrastructure and because of the fairies designed themselves they can make themselves equal to his angels in direct power if not in actual strength or metaphysical significance so he's got to strip them of that ability so he can remake creation for the Third time?

 

[uju32]

Forgot to post this yesterday; sorry its late.

Both Michael and Charity also have extensive experience with warlocks, and should have been able to identify the signs if there were any.

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Charity does not; she was a victim of one warlock, not an investigator, and has never met any since.
And Michael has a Mysterious Ways buff for that sort of thing when he's on the job. Warlocks are not, and have never been his primary mission.

Molly certainly wasnt acting as a warlock either.

That's very speculative at best. I will give you Sidereals, probably, but definitely not bonfires of golden resplendent glory that are Solars. They should be as, or more, noticeable, as Molly is, and in a different and more exotic way (you don't usually see active divinity manifest). Same with Lunars (probably feels a lot like a naagloshii, only not corrupted), and Abyssals (might feel like Outsiders).

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I dont agree.
We have repeatedly seen Solars walk into gatherings of supernatural creatures in ExWoD fluff; usually vampire gatherings, with all the superhuman senses of Kindred.

When they arent actively channelling mojo, the vampires cant tell any difference from a Solar and a mall-kid.
And at least one of the scenarios was a Kindred Prince, so by no means a scrub.

How many new exalts would you expect to have it? Remember - no min-maxing, in-character subconscious decisions only.

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I dont know?
There are 700 Celestial Exalts in canon: 300 Solaroids, 300 Lunars, and another 100 Sidereals.
ALL Sidereals get Arcane. If you assume 1 in 10 Solaroids and Lunars, thats at least 60 Celestials.

That represents a shitton of supernatural power.

Dresden is not very observant and very ignorant in general, and we don't know about what Michael knows. And exalts are far more disruptive than a naagloshii is - that's their whole point.

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Here exists the following:
1) Global transport time measured in hours, not months
2) Global surveillance networks - especially if Archive is on the side of the Hunt, and we are currently arranging to make her an ally. And she gets direct real-time access to all satellite imagery, all videocameras that record anything, even temporarily,
3) Wyldfae (and Odin's, and White Court's, and White Council's) intelligence and support networks
4) Molly's crown on eyes, and in the future multiple crowns of eyes of multiple infernals, and sidereal support.
5) Mysterious ways of White God.

I stand by what I said - a properly organized Wyld Hunt in modern society would have a much easier time than in the Age of Sorrow due to how smaller and more interconnected and faster to traverse the world is.

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1)They could already do this at need.
There were Calibration Gates all across Creation for people with Yu-Shan access, and Sorcery provided multiple mobility options. Furthermore, in the Dresdenverse, essentially everyone worth taking seriously in the supernatural world can travel the Ways. No infrastructure required to go from one end of the world to the other in less than an hour.

2-4) The Wyld Hunt and its backers had Loom of Fate access my dude. And Sidereal Astrology.
Literally precognitive forecasting and manipulation of the course of most people's lives inside creation.And thats before you get to realize that this was an Age where a lot of things and places had their own gods, and that gods often had charms for monitoring their domains.

That represented a level of panopticon surveillance and manipulation beyond anything you can reliably build and maintain in the current day.

Creation was a hypertech setting post-two or three successive societal collapse events.
The remaining enclaves of First Age opulence like Yu-Shan had higher effective technological capabilities than anything modern Earth is capable of.

Thats the sort of shit the Wyld Hunt could call on at need in Creation.


5)The White God is not necessarily going to want to be involved in any such thing as the Wyld Hunt.

Supernatural forces aren't stupid. Ravana has nukes, MIkaboshi controls Chinese stock exchange, Lara Raith can call in USA military forces.

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Point of correction:
Ravana does NOT have nukes. He has some highly placed agents in some Asian nuclear powers, but he does not control their nukes, nor does he have his own.

Furthermore, Mikaboshi has influence in the Chinese stock markets, he does not control it. Entirely too many people would make it their mission to murder any attempt by a Yama King to do anything that blatant in World of Darkness, from the shen to multiple Kueijin Courts to the Technocracy's Syndicate.

 

[uju32]

@uju32 The salinan working or most likely solar 3 workings that were interlinked via lesser workings to be able to capture all signs of sorcery and directly encode them into creation which means they affected the entirety of the metaphysical setting which extends to the wyld.
A working or series of workings from a being strong enough to create angels could definitely affect the entire metaphysical makeup of every unshaped and wyld entity in existence or whatever comes into so.

Heck God may have done it to save his burgeoning creation because of the fairies are able to take on identity and then immediately try to dissolve his creation while he's trying to build it then they can damage really important infrastructure and because of the fairies designed themselves they can make themselves equal to his angels in direct power if not in actual strength or metaphysical significance so he's got to strip them of that ability so he can remake creation for the Third time?

Click to shrink...

The Solar Host learned how to do Sorcery from the Primordials after getting them to surrender. And the Primordials did not have that sort of power, nevermind the Solar Deliberative.
The Primordials themselves are basically another class of Wyld entity anyway.

This is Abrahamic/Hindu Creator Deity territory.

 

[Degorium]

Adamant Sorcerers are greater than the primordials. There is no need to go any further they just are the primordials were great at large massive constructions but they were not the Undisputed masters of sorcery and necromancy like the exalted were.
The closest any Yozi primordial or never born get to the power of the exalted is the inherent dread powers of their greatest Souls and even then they are still lesser than that of an adamant sorcerer.

 

[Yog]

Not necessarily. Different Age, different physical rules and cosmological constants.
The existence of the shinma was never going to be a given; the fact that they're still here gives us some hard data to work with
Even though the shinma make my head hurt.

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Assuming the description of shinma os correct, no, they are rather beyond Ages. For there to be different ages, Advaita Iraivan has to keep existing and recognizing the difference. The disappearance of shinma results in Time-Not.

Point of correction:
No, Creation was never infinite. Chaos/the Wyld allegedly was, but not Creation.

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The length of reality is literally described as infinitely long:

Extruding an infinitely long fiber of solid reality from
their newly hidden game parlor, the Primordials enwrapped
a broad swath of pristine Wyld and choked it into an ugly,
static abomination.

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Thanks for pointing that out.
Something like that is rather beyond Salinan working shit.

The Salinan Working took advantage of the cosmic infrastructure of Creation to affect shit inside Creation and was primarily targeted at humans. Whatever changed the basic nature of the Unshaped would have needed to reach outside Creation to the entirety of the allegedly infinite Wyld and all the entities who lived there.

Thats a very different tier of power and knowledge. Even Primordials dont have that sort of power and reach.
Sounds like White God/Creator Deity things.

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No, again, Shinmaic Calibration, something explicitly below Salinan working in scope, can target things beyond Creation:

SHINMAIC CALIBRATION
Cost: 20m, 1xp; Mins: Lore 7, Essence 7;
Type: Simple (One dramatic action)
Keywords: Combo-OK, Native, Obvious, Shaping
Duration: Instant
Prerequisites: Shinmaic Communion
Having communed with the foundational elements of
the cosmos, the Solars forge miracles. This Charm must be
activated in a region the Solar has altered with Shinmaic
Communion. The character defines a wondrous aspect or
blessing for inclusion within the region. Much like artifact
crafting, this Charm is conceptually broad and depends on
cooperation between players and Storytellers to design un-
canny wonders that later Ages will disbelievingly mythologize
and dream of. The parameters of the effect depend on the
Shinmaic Communion elements affecting the region this
Charm is used in.
• Nirvikalpa determines the power of the miracle. One
point affecting the region permits the Solar to produce works
equivalent to mundane effort. Two points may produce
uncanny effects equivalent to thaumaturgy. Three points
produce wonders equivalent to Terrestrial Circle sorcery.
Four points are equivalent to the Celestial Circle, and five
points may produce awe-inspiring effects comparable to Solar
Circle sorcery. Zero points limits the effects to only the weak-
est happenstance, the equivalent of mood lighting—effects
with no mechanical repercussions at all.
• Nishkriya determines the strategy of the miracle.
Each point of Nishkriya invested in the region allows one
trigger to be built into the miracle. Examples of potential
triggers include "entering the region," "praying to the Yozis,"
"sleeping within the region," "stealing from a merchant,"
"marching under the flag of a foreign power," or "disguising
one's identity."
• Dharma determines who the miracle affects. One point
permits only a very limited subset of a population—old men
of Varangian descent. Two points allows the miracle to affect
a population—Varangians. Three points permits a category
of magical beings to be targeted (such as gods, or Dragon-
Blooded). Four points affect all individuals who wish to be
affected. Five points allows the miracle to target everyone
within the region. Zero points limits the miracle to working
upon the environment; it cannot affect people at all.
• Nirvishesha determines how long the miracle persists.
One point causes the effect to last unto the third generation
(60 years). Two points last unto the seventh generation (140
years). Three points last until the 30th generation (600 years).
Four points last unto the 50th generation (1,000 years). Five
points create a permanent miracle. Zero points invested in
Nirvishesha produces a miracle lasting a single paltry year.
• Nirupadhika determines the scope of the miracle.
One point affects all regions the Solar has shaped out of
the Wyld within a single Direction. Two points affect all
such regions he has shaped within the boundaries of Cre-
ation, and any realms of the Faraway which he has visited.
Three points affect all of the above, as well as the entirety
of Creation. Four points affect all of Creation as well as all
directly adjoining realms (the Underworld, Malfeas, Yu-Shan,
Autochthonia, the Wyld). Five points are conjectured to
affect all of existence—even those conceptual frontiers the
Exalted have yet to discover or invent. Zero points invested in
Nirupadhika affects only the Shinmaic Communion-marked
region in which the Charm is used.
For example, a Solar might lay a blessing of protection
on a region for seven generations, so that all invading armies
are scoured at its borders by enormous pillars of white-hot
sunfire and other horrifying manifestations of Adamant Circle
destruction. This would require that the region be affected
by two points under Nirvishesha, five under Dharma, five
under Nirvikalpa, and two under Nishkriya. Or a Solar might
attempt to permanently ennoble all the cosmos so that anyone
attempting to initiate into the practice of sorcery will receive
this tutelage by the world itself. This would require five points
of Nirupadhika, five points of Nirvishesha, four points of
Dharma, one of Nishkriya, and two points of Nirvikalpa.
Crafting a miracle is an extended dramatic action using a
dice pool of (Intelligence + Lore) with an interval of one day,
a difficulty of (points of Nirupadhika used), and a cumulative
difficulty of (total number of points used x 10). Abandoning
the effort at any point before completion causes the effect
to unravel harmlessly, and the Solar is refunded the xp cost
of the Charm. A botch causes the miracle to erupt in some
dangerous and unpredictable manner—at best, everyone in
the region is likely to have a very interesting day.
This Charm's miracles take effect automatically once
crafting is complete, unless the Solar has utilized one or more
points of Nirupadhika. In that case the miracle becomes what
is known as a shinmaic potentiality or "Miracle Shell," an
Essence-shaped working which exists in potential but does
not interface with Creation. Greater arts than Shinmaic
Calibration are required to integrate a Miracle Shell into
reality—the Salinan Working is likely the most well-known
example of such an integration.

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Note the bolded underlined parts. 4 point of Nirupadhika affects all Creation, and bordering regions like Malfeas, Yu-Shan, the Wyld, Underworld, etc. 5 points affects everything that exists and could ever exist. That's an E7 solar charm from Glories of the First Age.

 

[BronzeTongue]

I can agree with this, and it's not about being in a cult, it's about still having faith, instead of getting it ground into dust.

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Having faith in just anything isn't inherently valuable somehow and we don't need to soak it up like we're falling on some sword that conveniently benefits us.

This is just too out of character to make sense as a vote. Even if you could somehow find a way to make an argument for it on a general level I don't see how you can sell the idea Molly Carpenter, even with the changes from the quest, would offer to do this when there are other reasonable options.

We aren't playing a blank slate here.

[X] Plan Oblivion Counter Warfare
-[X] Side with your father, if there is any hope of saving the changeling girl you should try
--[X] A splendor can be forged relatively easily, to make her incapable of caring for or even thinking about Outside. It can be further upgraded afterwards, scaled to automatically spread the effect to the masses [outline splendors from 3 to 5 points, culminating in Holy Book of Ignorance).
---[X] If such is made, Ivy would be the owner and thus immune to the effects and directing the use. You'll need help in getting the resources for the forging of higher versions.
--[X] Occult, Empathy excellencies
[X] Side with your father, if there is any hope of saving the changeling girl you should try

 

[uju32]

@Dmol8 asked about this last week, so here's a primer:

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OVERVIEW: TIFFANY SHIELA LASH MCNEILL
INCARNATE OF LIGHT, LONGING AND FLESH​

INNATE POWERS
These are the default powers that every Demon has, regardless of Lore. Usually requires that you have at least 1 point of Faith in your Faith pool. In order:

• Immunity to Mind Control and supernaturally-induced fear
• Immunity to Possession
• Immunity to Disease and Aging: As long as you have 1 pt of Faith or greater
• Resistance to Illusion: Roll Perception + Alertness at DC7 normally, or DC(higher of Faith or Torment) if the caster is another demon
• Resistance to Lethal damage: Soak lethal damage with Stamina in Apocalyptic Form
• Resistance to Poison: Soak with Stamina
• Invocation: Take notice when Celestial or True Name is used, and make Faith roll at DC6/7 to determine who is using their Name and why, with additional successes yielding more information or allowing you to spy on the speaker. No distance limit
• Supernatural Awareness: Sense supernatural energies around you, and disturbances within a radius of [Faith] miles. Roll Perception + Awareness at DC7, with additional successes yielding more details
• Healing Physical Damage: Spend 1 Faith to heal all bashing damage, or 1HL of lethal damage

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APOCALYPTIC FORM/ REVELATORY FORM/ VISAGE
Basically a cross between Molly's shintai mode and Rage Recast, Demons get to activate a godform thats a pale shadow of their Unfallen days when they could alter their form at will. They get up to 8 special powers such as Wings, Armor, Extra Limbs/Actions,Extra Health, Regeneration, additional Attribute buffs, AoE effects etc.

Roll permanent Faith at DC6 or spend 1 Faith to activate for a scene.
May activate all powers, or some of the powers for a scene. May activate additional powers later in the same scene for the same cost/under the same conditions.

For example, a Demon with Wings may not activate them with his Visage while indoors, but may choose to do so if the action moves outside. Or one thats in a firefight might only want to activate his Armor(Iron Skin or Shark Hide or Scales) + Regeneration but not his social buffs. Or one thats infiltrating might want only No Reflection/Invisible to Cameras.


There are different optional rules available according to Demon Players Guide.

In low power games, you might only get 4 powers instead of 8. In a lot of standard games, you get 8, but only 4 of those 8 powers can be used if you are low Torment; your access to the other 4 scales with your permanent Torment, or you may access one high Torment power temporarily at the cost of increasing your Torment by 1.

In more permissive gameplay, you can buy more than 8 powers, and swap between them.
In high power games, high Torment powers are not a thing; you can both buy more than 8 powers and use them all simultaneously with no restrictions.

No idea which rules the QM is running her on.

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GENERAL LORE RULES
There are 23 different Lores available to a Demon.

There's two common Lores that every Demon gets default access to: Fundament and Humanity.
Then they have a choice of 3x extra Lores of the remaining 21.

All Lores have 5x Evocations, ranked from 1 dot to 5 dots.
The first three Evocations of any Lore, 1 dot to 3 dots, are free to activate and use as long as you make the roll. The last 2 evocations, 4 dot and 5 dot, cost 1 Faith to activate/use in addition to the roll.

All Evocations have a high Torment mode that can intentionally or unintentionally distort the use of the Evocation and makes its manifestation particularly malevolent.

Your primary Lore is always your highest rated Lore; no other Lore can have more dots than your primary Lore.
May also buy/acquire other Lores, depending on QM/Storyteller permission.
Additional Lores are also capped by primary Lore rating.

These are Lash's known Lores:

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LORE OF FUNDAMENT

1. Manipulate Gravity: Leap enormous distances(20 yards/success), hang in the air, or drop at tremendous speed. Duration 1 turn. Free.
2. Manipulate Adhesion: Wall-walking, ceiling walking, clinging to moving car, etc. Free
3. Manipulate Intertia: Throw objects(30 yards/success) regardless of Strength, snatch projectiles(rocks,knives, arrows but not bullets) out of the air. Free
4. Manipulate Acceleration: Supernatural speed(40 yards/sux when running) and force(auto levels of damage) to self. Duration 1 turn. Cost 1 Faith.
5. Manipulate Cohesion: Walk on water or air, vaporize solid objects. Cost 1 Faith. Touch range.

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LORE OF HUMANITY

1. Translate: Understand and be understood by mortals regardless of language. Scenelong. Free.
2. Insinuate: Cause mortals to regard demon as potential friend. Reduce difficulty of subsequent Manipulation rolls. Free.
3. Fade: SEP field. Go unnoticed by mortals unless directly calling attention to self.Scenelong or until deactivated. Free.
4. Confess: Makes mortals answer questions fully and honestly. Duration [Faith]turns. Cost 1 Faith.
5. Alter Memory: Manipulate, change,remove or plant memories. Altered or fabricated memories are permanent. Cost 1 Faith.

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LORE OF LIGHT

1. Light: Fill small area with light. Can also be focused in a direction and used as ranged bashing weapon at anyone looking in direction of light. Duration [Faith] turns as utility, 1 turn when used as weapon. Free.
2. Bend Light: Optical camoflage like in Ghost in The Shell or Predator. Increases difficulties of Perception rolls and ranged attacks. Demons and thralls invested with the right power(s) can resist illusion.
3. Phantasm: Ghostly illusion(s). Fixed programming. Duration up to[Faith]days. Resisted by demons and demon thralls invested with the right power(s). Free.
4. Illusion: Realistic illusions that look real until touched. Can be controlled and altered on the fly. Range is line of sight. Scenelong. Costs 1 Faith
5. Coherent Light: Make light solid so realistic illusions can interact with real world. Can be controlled and altered on the fly. Range is line of sight, cap is [Faith] simultaneous illusions. Can be used to make shadow clones. Resisted by demons and demon thralls invested with the right power(s). Duration [Faith]turns. Costs 1 Faith

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LORE OF LONGING

1. Read Emotions:Gives insight into target's thoughts and desires. Each success is a bonus dice to all Social rolls with a given person. Single target, scene long. Free
2. Empathetic Response:If success > target's Wits attribute, they react with complete trust and obey any reasonable request. Single target, scene long, or until demon turns to new victim. Free
3. Manipulate Senses: Manipulate a person's nerves and sensations; can be addictive. Every success adds +1 to both target's Perception and wound penalties for [Faith]turns. Touch. Free
4. Obsession: Inflame one of the subject's interests or desires into an obsession; they know no peace, and can neither eat nor sleep until the obsession is fulfilled.Range [Faith] yards. Costs 1 Faith
5. Inspire: Boost subject to inhuman heights of perception and awareness. Each success is +1 to a mortal's Mental or Social traits, up to a 5-point max. Duration is [Faith] days. Costs 1 Faith

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LORE OF FLESH

1. Body Control: Alter body chemistry of self or others, purge poisons(natural or artificial), and modulate metabolism. Scenelong, touch range, self or others. Free.
2. Manipulate Nerves: Manipulate nervous system. Sharpen or dull senses. Increase or reduce Dexterity or wound penalty by 1 per success. Touch range, self or others.Scenelong. Free
3. Manipulate Flesh: Add muscle mass, manipulate bone density etc. Add points to Physical or Mental Traits. Side effect is 1 unsoakable bashing damage for each success above subject's Stamina. Scenelong, touch range, self or others. Free
4. Restore Flesh: Heal bashing/lethal damage and illness, purge poisons and regenerate limbs of mortals and animals.Does not heal Aggravated damage or resurrect the dead. Touch range, costs 1 Faith.
5. Shape Flesh: Reshape human flesh as desired, turning the person into figures out of myth, adding/removing Attribute points and physical features. Duration [Faith] days; permanent for the cost of 1WP. Touch range, may happen over severl days. Costs 1 Faith.

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OTHER NOTES
Demons start the game with 5 Lore points.
Lash currently has demonstrated Flesh 4, Longing 1 onscreen, which means she has no points in other Lores yet.
She'll have to acquire those in play.

I would suspect that from an optimal build PoV, she would probably max out Flesh 5, and then use that to max out her base Attributes/add Merits and powers to her body for free.
Before trying to buy other Lores and/or Visage powers.

 

[DragonParadox]

Vote closed.

Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Dec 1, 2023 at 8:11 AM, finished with 102 posts and 29 votes.

• ---

  17 people have voted

  [X] Plan yoink, mine now
  -[X] Side with your father, if there is any hope of saving the changeling girl you should try
  --[X] Faith can be redirected. Point out thematic and cosmetic similarities to the reality of your Court as one possible way to do so. Provide other alternatives too
  --[X] a splendor can be forged relatively easily, to make her incapable of caring for or even thinking about Outside. It can be further upgraded afterwards, scaled to automatically spread the effect to the masses [outline splendors from 3 to 5 points, culminating in Holy Book of Ignorance).
  ---[X] If such is made, Ivy would be the owner and thus immune to the effects and directing the use. You'll need help in getting the resources for the forging of higher versions.
  --[X] Occult, Empathy excellencies

  • Yog
  • Degorium
  • tenchifew
  • Luca Nox
  • Kestrel21
  • Tiz Goldeneye
  • KonradC
  • NinjaOfOrthanc
  • Nyarky
  • slips
  • the DragonBard
  • Azais
  • Vanguard_D
  • firefrog600
  • dragon
  • Iron Roby
  • Anaja

  10 people have voted

  [X] Side with your father, if there is any hope of saving the changeling girl you should try

  • Aria the Mage
  • LightLan
  • uju32
  • TheGrape
  • Captainwolf
  • Infopanda
  • fictionfan
  • Iron Roby
  • Anaja
  • BronzeTongue

  3 people have voted

  [X] Plan Oblivion Counter Warfare
  -[X] Side with your father, if there is any hope of saving the changeling girl you should try
  --[X] a splendor can be forged relatively easily, to make her incapable of caring for or even thinking about Outside. It can be further upgraded afterwards, scaled to automatically spread the effect to the masses [outline splendors from 3 to 5 points, culminating in Holy Book of Ignorance).
  ---[X] If such is made, Ivy would be the owner and thus immune to the effects and directing the use. You'll need help in getting the resources for the forging of higher versions.
  --[X] Occult, Empathy excellencies

  • BoredMan
  • Fouredged Sword
  • BronzeTongue

  2 people have voted

  [X] Side with the Archive, you have looked into the eyes of Nemesis and that thing cannot be allowed even an inch of leeway or it will slide though the cracks or create even worse horrors

  • Goldfish
  • Silvereagle21

 

[Artemis1992]

Demons start the game with 5 Lore points.
Lash currently has demonstrated Flesh 4, Longing 1 onscreen, which means she has no points in other Lores yet.
She'll have to acquire those in play.

Click to shrink...

This is not quite correct.
She got a boost in XP or Freebies because we made her the highest tier of possible body with good success.
So she could have more Lore-Dots right after chargen.

 

[beowolf]

OTHER NOTES
Demons start the game with 5 Lore points.
Lash currently has demonstrated Flesh 4, Longing 1 onscreen, which means she has no points in other Lores yet.
She'll have to acquire those in play.

Click to shrink...

My understanding was that she got some freebie points from Molly's success with her body, and spent them all on extra Lore dots.

 

[uju32]

Assuming the description of shinma os correct, no, they are rather beyond Ages. For there to be different ages, Advaita Iraivan has to keep existing and recognizing the difference. The disappearance of shinma results in Time-Not.

Click to shrink...

The length of reality is literally described as infinitely long:

Click to shrink...

No, thats the construction material they used to make Creation.
Creation itself is distinctively limited.
The Solars spent a significant amount of effort expanding Creation by pushing into the Wyld.

No, again, Shinmaic Calibration, something explicitly below Salinan working in scope, can target things beyond Creation:

Click to shrink...

Note the bolded underlined parts. 4 point of Nirupadhika affects all Creation, and bordering regions like Malfeas, Yu-Shan, the Wyld, Underworld, etc. 5 points affects everything that exists and could ever exist. That's an E7 solar charm from Glories of the First Age.

Click to shrink...

I will quote your citation:

Nirupadhika determines the scope of the miracle.
One point affects all regions the Solar has shaped out of
the Wyld within a single Direction. Two points affect all
such regions he has shaped within the boundaries of Cre-
ation, and any realms of the Faraway which he has visited.
Three points affect all of the above, as well as the entirety
of Creation. Four points affect all of Creation as well as all
directly adjoining realms (the Underworld, Malfeas, Yu-Shan,
Autochthonia, the Wyld). Five points are conjectured to
affect all of existence—even those conceptual frontiers the
Exalted have yet to discover or invent. Zero points invested in
Nirupadhika affects only the Shinmaic Communion-marked
region in which the Charm is used.

Click to shrink...

The other term for conjecture is speculation.
They know what the other four points do, they dont know what the fifth does.

And I find it implausible that an E7 Solar can hack the entire fucking Wyld; the Wyld explicitly had other Primordials, with antishaping charms of their own.
Thats just ridiculous.

 

[Yog]

And I find it implausible that an E7 Solar can hack the entire fucking Wyld; the Wyld explicitly had other Primordials, with antishaping charms of their own.
Thats just ridiculous.

Click to shrink...

A reminder that Primordial War was won by E5 exalted. Elder essence happened later.

 

[uju32]

This is not quite correct.
She got a boost in XP or Freebies because we made her the highest tier of possible body with good success.
So she could have more Lore-Dots right after chargen.

Click to shrink...

My understanding was that she got some freebie points from Molly's success with her body, and spent them all on extra Lore dots.

Click to shrink...

Extra Freebie points and XP? Yes.
Did she spend them on Lore? Not that we've seen.
Other things to buy, like Willpower, permanent Faith, Torment and Backgrounds.

Permanent Faith in particular is egregiously expensive outside chargen
You want to max that out if you can.

Trait
New Ability: 3xp
New Lore: 7xp (10 if from a House other than the character's)
Attribute: Current rating x4
Ability: Current rating x2
Lore: Current rating x5
Background: Current rating x3
Willpower: Current rating
Faith: Current rating x7
Torment: 10*

**This decreases the character's permanent Torment by one point.

Click to shrink...

 

[Yog]

No, thats the construction material they used to make Creation.
Creation itself is distinctively limited.
The Solars spent a significant amount of effort expanding Creation by pushing into the Wyld.

Click to shrink...

Creation after Primordial War and Three Spheres Cataclysm was limited, I have to point out.

 

[uju32]

A reminder that Primordial War was won by E5 exalted. Elder essence happened later.

Click to shrink...

The Primordial War was fought and won by

• 300 Solars
• 300 Lunars
• 100 Sidereals
• Millions of Dragonbloods
• Tens of millions of Dragon Kings, Jadeborn, mortals and other species
• An egregious number of spirits and gods
• The aid of 2x allied Primordials

We dont know how many of the Celestial Exalts died and respawned.

And even then, they got the Yozi to surrender. They didnt manage to physically subdue them.
When Cece, the Principle of Hierarchy threw a tantrum in the Three Spheres Cataclysm, she blew away 90% of Creation that existed at the time, including concepts.

 

[uju32]

Creation after Primordial War and Three Spheres Cataclysm was limited, I have to point out.

Click to shrink...

The Primordial War is not documented to have destroyed significant portions of Creation.

As for the Three Spheres Cataclysm? -90% of infinity would have left infinity.
It didnt.
Ergo Creation was not infinite in the first place.

 

[Yog]

The Primordial War was fought and won by

• 300 Solars
• 300 Lunars
• 100 Sidereals
• Millions of Dragonbloods
• Tens of millions of Dragon Kings, Jadeborn, mortals and other species
• An egregious number of spirits and gods
• The aid of 2x allied Primordials

And even then, they got the Yozi to surrender. They didnt manage to physically subdue them.
When Cece, the Principle of Hierarchy threw a tantrum in the Three Spheres Cataclysm, she blew away 90% of Creation that existed at the time, including concepts.

Click to shrink...

Yes. And the highest essence anyone was, was 5. E7 is supposed to be significantly grander. And yes, they did manage to physically subdue Primordials at the time, kill several of them, even.

The Primordial War is not documented to have destroyed significant portions of Creation.

As for the Three Spheres Cataclysm? -90% of infinity would have left infinity.
It didnt.
Ergo Creation was not infinite in the first place.

Click to shrink...

Unless one of the lost concepts was "infinite space".

 

[BronzeTongue]

A reminder that Primordial War was won by E5 exalted. Elder essence happened later.

Click to shrink...

It's also clearly at least possible to do on a technical level. See the invention of linear time.

For whatever reason the Rakasha and any other wyld native who interacted with anything that touched on creation couldn't turn their perfect defenses against it or other similar fundamental laws.

It's not as if they'd see it as natural, like how Molly can't CCC against gravity unless she legitimately convinces herself that earth is a prison, because it's entirely antithetical to many of them.

My guess is that there's a certain category of shaping that basically runs on the "I'm not touching you" rule. You aren't the target, they're just defining the properties of the stuff around you such that you can't interact with them without following the same rules yourself.

That'd potentially also explain the whole effects everything even stuff we're not aware of yet thing. If you make something a fundamental property of creation that applies to anything which interacts with it then it'll precede you everywhere you go.

The only way to measure the difference IC would be to observe a place that hasn't interacted with creation while such an effect is being generated to see if it applies before or after it touches something from it.

But even if you could somehow do that without immediately contaminating your experiment, for the purposes of exalted not interacting with creation means it isn't subject to fixed linear time. You're trying to measure before and after in a context where they don't have meaning.

 

[uju32]

Yes. And the highest essence anyone was, was 5. E7 is supposed to be significantly grander. And yes, they did manage to physically subdue Primordials at the time, kill several of them, even.

Click to shrink...

The infrastructure and war machine necessary to win the Primordial War was vast, and largely supplied by others like the Jadeborn, who the Exalted insisted on crippling after the War.

This is nothing against the Exalted Host, but its worth remembering this was not something they were capable of on their own.
Certainly not with Creation surviving the process.
The Primordials had more 3CDs than there were Celestial Exalts, for crying out loud.

There werent many Celestial Exalts who survived the Primordial War from the beginning to the end.
There's a reason Exaltations were programmed to autonomously respawn; the casualties were expected to be vast.


The Host killed at least six Primordials judging by the numbers of Neverborn, and injured a lot more.
The vast majority survived; there were at least 23 Yozi. There is no textev I am aware of where the Exalted Host actually managed to subdue a Primordial; much easier to kill something than to restrain it.

It's also clearly at least possible to do on a technical level. See the invention of linear time.

Click to shrink...

I have no idea how linear time and such constants worked.
The books didnt go into that in any detail.
We know shit like time travel was/is explicitly possible, and was banned during one of the Wars.

 

[beowolf]

For whatever reason the Rakasha and any other wyld native who interacted with anything that touched on creation couldn't turn their perfect defenses against it or other similar fundamental laws.

It's not as if they'd see it as natural, like how Molly can't CCC against gravity unless she legitimately convinces herself that earth is a prison, because it's entirely antithetical to many of them.

My guess is that there's a certain category of shaping that basically runs on the "I'm not touching you" rule. You aren't the target, they're just defining the properties of the stuff around you such that you can't interact with them without following the same rules yourself.

Click to shrink...

After deliberately separating Primordials from all other Wyld inhabitants: Wyld inhabitants don't have Shaping Defenses. They engage in Shaping Combat, where both sides try to alter each other and actively undo the changes made to themselves, but they can't be passively immune to it. All other types of Perfect Defenses are instantaneous or time limited, which would still apply even if time isn't strictly linear; and I'm not sure Raksha ever get even tick long Perfects, let alone action long ones, they may be limited to individual attacks, where a permanent environmental effect would force them to pay over and over until they run out of power. The absence of linear time may actually make this even worse, because they may not have the "for the rest of the current action" clause you normally get when Perfecting a persistent environmental effect, making the duration of immunity infinitesimal, and thus the cost to defend for any length of time infinite.