Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Of Church and Council
Of Church and Council

By Bob the Skull​

Despite the official doctrine of the Catholic Church on magic and the occult ranging from disbelief at best to hostility at worst, the latter of which claimed many lives through the ages, some with the spark of talent many without, the White Council has always maintained a line of communication, some might even say influence in the highest circles of Church power. It goes back to Rome, most things so. When the last Emperor fell and the Goths and later the Franks raised their realm in the shadow of the Colosseum and the Forum they had little interest in southern sorcerers nor in truth did the fledgling White Council have an interest in playing that part. The Merlin had learned well the lessons of the old Hermetic Circle, but Rome remained a trove of ancient lore which fell, like many things in those days, into the keeping of the Church.

Most likely the transfer was amiable and may have included whatever keepers had been set to guard the tomes and artifacts in the wake of the chaos taking their vows. While many older wizards were still pagan at this time, the younger generation had converted in large numbers, as large as one can speak of with regard to the pre-modern White Council. If you are imagining two people in white robes handing those books off at this point you may not be far wrong. In either case no one wanted a repeat of the destruction of the Serapeum in Alexandria.

Dark powers swelled though the chaotic final years of the Empire in the West, demons, hauntings and hunters of men rode through the night and only those powers that had been bound to the now much withered cities like the White Court suffered for the scattering of the population, the strife and ill speaking between Germanic rulers and Vulgate speaking locals. You would be surprised just how much mischief can be done by targeting people who can't or won't ask for help and no, that's not just my biases speaking. Especially following the Plague of Justinian a strain of extreme practicality marked the actions of those bishops assigned to deal with matters occult, nothing else would serve in the spirit of the times. Even later though as the Council not only mentained its presence in Spain after the Muslim Conquest but expanted it to the rest of the Arab world, reaching as far as India and Southeast Asia long before any merchants had sailed that way, the position of the Holy See remainted that it was better for wizards to dwell apart rather than offer advantage and temptation to kings and princes of all stripes. The White Council of the time encouraged this view of itself as quasi-monastic with Neo-Platonic accents, a relic of another time slow to change but harmless.

Consider how some people, naming no names because she scares me, bury their magic in part or in whole from their understanding of what faith requires of them? Well that isn't accidental, at least according to what wizards though. Factions within the Church, especially the inquisition hoped to strangle the Council of new members under the guise of doing the same to much more harmful groups. But for all Rome's reach was vast in those days it never lived up to its boast, never universal. In any case there are always going to be people who do not want to pass up on phenomenal cosmic power and for all its ups and downs in leadership, and there were some very deep downs there, the Church always at least saw an apprenticeship in the White Council as the lesser of two evils.

The Reformation was the moment when things almost broke down, amid accusations that magic had been used to drive common and royal folk alike from the arms of the Church. It certainly did not help when England threw its lot in with the heretics, nor the rumors that Anne Boleyn was in truth a witch. She might have had a minor talent for glamor-craft and not even have been aware of it by accounts later collected.

Cooler heads prevailed when a team of Wardens helped prevent an eruption of Mount Etna in 1555 precipitated by a striga cult that would have killed thousands quickly and most likely millions slowly by illness and starvation. The fact that the Protestants were even more likely to burn witches calmed fears about a political power play.

OOC: Since we do not have an update today, here's some historical background that occurred to me when we were speaking about magic and religion.
 
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funniest part about the anti magic thing from the church is that most of the kills of magic users by the church were 1. not magic users in the first place, 2. very minor talents, 3.overwhelmed after they had to eventually sleep. in that order.
 
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funniest part about the anti magic thing from the church is that most of the kills of magic users by the church were 1. not magic users in the first place, 2. very minor talents, 3.overwhelmed after they had to eventually sleep.

Lets just say there may have been some people involved with that who knew how wizards worked and had the same idea as Thomas' cousin. Kill enough minor talents no more major ones are born. Just as good convince the major talents to bury their gift like Charity did and they are no longer likely to give birth to more magicians. Add to that that magic usually passes through the female line and you get another reason why 'witches' persecuted were far more often women than men (plus all the misogyny, all the factors that lead to witch hunts in a world with no magic would still apply in a world that does have some)
 
Lets just say there may have been some people involved with that who knew how wizards worked and had the same idea as Thomas' cousin. Kill enough minor talents no more major ones are born. Just as good convince the major talents to bury their gift like Charity did and they are no longer likely to give birth to more magicians. Add to that that magic usually passes through the female line and you get another reason why 'witches' persecuted were far more often women than men (plus all the misogyny, all the factors that lead to witch hunts in a world with no magic would still apply in a world that does have some)
Yeah though in fairness the vast amount of kills were never actually wizards. As the power a wizard had over most mortals especially in a time without automatic weaponry much less early guns meant that a normal wizard could kill a hundred people if not more before being put down in a normal fight. So the vast majority of cases of mage killings were not magic users at all or were so weak they were barely mages of any kind at all. Also you know we know even most of the church wasn't actually educated on what constitutes a magic user or know the difference between a vampire, a demon, and a wizard. Very very few people were ever actually equipped to kill anyone of particular talent.
 
Yeah though in fairness the vast amount of kills were never actually wizards. As the power a wizard had over most mortals especially in a time without automatic weaponry much less early guns meant that a normal wizard could kill a hundred people if not more before being put down in a normal fight. So the vast majority of cases of mage killings were not magic users at all or were so weak they were barely mages of any kind at all. Also you know we know even most of the church wasn't actually educated on what constitutes a magic user or know the difference between a vampire, a demon, and a wizard. Very very few people were ever actually equipped to kill anyone of particular talent.

True though I would say that the best way to kill a wizard whom you actually know is a wizard with medieval tech is to poison their food. Make it something fast acting enough and all you have to worry about is the death curse.
 
Even the wizards, whose magic does not go well with technology, have the White Council as one of the masters in the financial and information sector. That is why I always scoff when Harry complains about poverty because that is his conscious choice to live like this, there are many methods for a law-abiding wizard to live well and if he could not think of any, for some reason, he could ask McCoye. I am sure he would help him think of ways.
Look.

Harry has had his groceries, his laundry and general housekeeping handled by brownies since the end of Summer Knight as a gift from Summer Lady Lily. He doesnt pay shit for it besides not talking about the brownies. Yet he complains about expenses, right before things like spending $3000 on a gold and silver enchanted summoning circle made by a svartalfar craftsman.

He's got horrible mortal priorities, is what Im saying.
The man would subsist totally on Burger King and ramen if you let him. And probably die of malnutrition.


EDIT
Seriously, Harry is the kind of guy to hire a supernatural hitman to kill Black Court vampires without having the cash to pay the dude, resulting in Thomas having to empty out his nest egg to bail him out.
Man is fucking horrible with money.
 
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Look.

Harry has had his groceries, his laundry and general housekeeping handled by brownies since the end of Summer Knight as a gift from Summer Lady Lily. He doesnt pay shit for it besides not talking about the brownies. Yet he complains about expenses, right before things like spending $3000 on a gold and silver enchanted summoning circle made by a svartalfar craftsman.

He's got horrible mortal priorities, is what Im saying.
The man would subsist totally on Burger King and ramen if you let him. And probably die of malnutrition.


EDIT
Seriously, Harry is the kind of guy to hire a supernatural hitman to kill Black Court vampires without having the cash to pay the dude, resulting in Thomas having to empty out his nest egg to bail him out.
Man is fucking horrible with money.
Yeah doesn't help he thinks magic shouldn't be monetized at least by himself.
 
Yeah does not really make since, the Church doesn't believe in magic because it not real IRL, and it was not the Church making claims about magic, that was just an excuse for people to kill people they did not like. The Church has tried everything to get magic to work, and found nothing. The Church cannot accuse or sanction somebody for Witchcraft or some-such because it doesn't believe in those falsehoods as existing.

In Dresden File the church would be the premier western power teaching magic in the world, as it does exist.
 
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Yeah does not really make since, the Church doesn't believe in magic because it not real IRL, and it was not the Church making claims about magic, that was just an excuse for people to kill people they did not like. The Church has tried everything to get magic to work, and found nothing.

In Dresden File the church would be the premier western power teaching magic in the world, as it does exist.

The point here is many of those in the know saw magic (outside of True Faith) as fundamentally ungodly and dangerous for mortal men to have. That is absolutely a conclusion you can still draw by reading the Bible which by the fact that Butcher did not mention any changes is still the same.
 
See the page on Mort. He is a sorcerer as strong as Dresden per Lea's assessment, but of a different flavor.
Harry thinks of sorcerers in terms of exploding things with magic because that's how he works. Violence is how he measures power.
I know Mort. He's an ectomancer, and does literally nothing else.

Most sorcerers are nowhere that limited.
Victor Sells from the very first book Storm Front, for example did alchemy, summoning, astral projection/scrying, built killer golems, and cast ritual death spells from miles away.

Harry still considered him a sorcerer.
=====
Magog probably doesn't have a good tutoring program either; the nature of the fallen, the host, and their partnership shapes how they develop.
Quintus Cassius was bound to Saluriel, not Magog. The snake guy, not the gorilla guy.
He was the snake guy in Death Rites who gave up his Coin to Michael and Sanya when cornered, and later Grevane's backup in Dead Beat.


Furthermore, how the Fallen relate to their current mounts depends on who their host is.
Compare the relationship of Ursiel and Rasmussen at the beginning of Death Masks, to the relationship between Ursiel and Blood on His Soul/the Genoskwa in Skin Game.

One was a masochistic ex-miner from the time of the California Gold Rush, the other is a bigtime Forest People wizard.
The ex-miner was a puppet.
The Bigfoot is a Player.
=====
I don't see how that makes a difference at this point. Namshiel taught Marcone to do serious magic, if he's inclined to pass information through his host then he could teach all sorts of things.

DP has settled it for the purposes of this quest but my point isn't that he was a minor practitioner right now, just how he started out.
Inclination of the Fallen matters, as does natural talent of the host, and their rapport.

I would not be surprised to find that a Fallen's inclination to invest in its host depends on their evaluation of who said host is and is capable of. You dont care for a forty year old Crown Victoria like a Rolls Royce Wraith.
Marcone had already made himself a supernatural Power before Namshiel entered the picture.

Thats why the Denarians considered recruiting him.




There is no textual backing I can recall for the assertion that Thorned Namshiel started out as a minor practitioner.
If you can present some, I'd be glad to discuss it further.
If not, Im willing to drop the conversation.
=====
Powerful Dresden Files entities are particular about this kind of thing. When a term has significant meaning I don't think it's reasonable to assume someone like would through them around lazily. Why should he didn't mean what he said?
No, they are not.
Powerful entities come from different times and different cultural contexts in the series.
Most of them dont even speak English as a native language. Or make the same distinctions.

For example, Freydis Gard repeatedly calls Harry seidrmadr/seiðmaður in Peace Talks. Literally magic-man.
And a specific kind of magic at that; Im given to understand that seidr was considered female magic in Old Norse.
The Grendelkin from the short story Heorot also calls him seidrmadr.

Hell, Shagnasty called Injun Joe a spirit-caller and Harry a wizard.
I wouldnt even begin to consider what they say in India, or China, or literally anywhere else that isnt the US and Canada.
Where most humans actually hail from.

Nicodemus Archleone is an almost two thousand year old, presumably Jewish man, who operates a global conspiracy and has spent much of his very long life on the Eurasian continent.
He literally lived through the emergence of modern English as a dominant language.

I dont see why you would assume that him speaking colloqially in English would have the same nuances as a thirty something year old American wizard.
 
The point here is many of those in the know saw magic (outside of True Faith) as fundamentally ungodly and dangerous for mortal men to have. That is absolutely a conclusion you can still draw by reading the Bible which by the fact that Butcher did not mention any changes is still the same.
While I agree with this, it is also a bit strange that he refers to the Inquisition and the burning of people and things like that when in reality the Inquisition of the Church was very strict in its judgments and did not like to kill people, much less was the purpose of its creation to search for Witchcraft, which gave the Inquisition a bad reputation and who loves torture and killing, were those done of a political nature, by kings or leaders of countries, who used it, and the name and prestige of the church, as an excuse to punish those who did not like it.

The Inquisition did not even condemn those who practiced magic because, as was said, the church does not believe that it existed since it tried everything to verify it. They would love to have magic on their side. Most of the accusations in the courts of the real Inquisition were of heresy/apostacy.

Surely sorcerers and lesser practices must have died there, but it was not an organized effort of the organization itself, but rather individual decisions of local leaders to try to follow the methods of the ants. Not something that the entire organization can be blamed on.
 
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Yeah does not really make since, the Church doesn't believe in magic because it not real IRL, and it was not the Church making claims about magic, that was just an excuse for people to kill people they did not like. The Church has tried everything to get magic to work, and found nothing. The Church cannot accuse or sanction somebody for Witchcraft or some-such because it doesn't believe in those falsehoods as existing.

In Dresden File the church would be the premier western power teaching magic in the world, as it does exist.
The previous history of the Inquisition in the setting's history is the sort of thing that makes students of history withdraw from attempting to police magic. Furthermore, the Church has actual empirical knowledge of the White God's actions and activity.
Thats the sort of thing that casts a pall on anyone interested in empire-building.

And frankly, the Church has enough issues keeping Coins out of circulation.
They have no motive to make themselves responsible for magic as well, and the complications of that entire thing.
While I agree with this, it is also a bit strange that he refers to the Inquisition and the burning of people and things like that when in reality the Inquisition of the Church was very strict in its judgments and did not like to kill people,
The formal Inquisition did not.
The many, many people who saw its existence as license to act in its name on the other hand, were much less legalistic.

Plus, its also possible that the Malleus Maleficarum in the Dresdenverse was much more bloody-handed than IRL.
After all, there were multiple factions who would have been willing to help promote bloodyhanded purges against magical populations, if only to push them into their own arms.
 
While I agree with this, it is also a bit strange that he refers to the Inquisition and the burning of people and things like that when in reality the Inquisition of the Church was very strict in its judgments and did not like to kill people, much less was the purpose of its creation to search for Witchcraft, which gave the Inquisition a bad reputation and who loves torture and killing, were those done of a political nature, by kings or leaders of countries, who used it, and the name and prestige of the church, as an excuse to punish those who did not like it.

The Inquisition did not even condemn those who practiced magic because, as was said, the church does not believe that it existed since it tried everything to verify it. They would love to have magic on their side. Most of the accusations in the courts of the real Inquisition were of heresy/apostacy.

Surely sorcerers and lesser practices must have died there, but it was not an organized effort of the organization itself, but rather individual decisions of local leaders to try to follow the methods of the ants. Not something that the entire organization can be blamed on.

While the Spanish Inquisition mostly killed conversos, Jews and Muslims especially in the North of Spain they did execute supposed witches. Over the next century of so they spent more time and energy trying to keep the local authorities from finding more 'witches' to execute. Spain stopped the killings far sooner and with far less bloodshed than countries in Protestant Europe.
 
It's also really sad as the amount of times those were actual mages couldn't have been high. I mean simply think from a practical standpoint a full wizard could have easily killed a hundred normal people more if it's a real powerful talent. Before the invention of automatic weaponry and they still likely dominated in battle when guns were in their early stages. Most deaths would not of been from people charging in when it was done by mortals it would have been by poisoning or murder while sleeping likely outside the home due to wards. A single fireball spell would have been devastating back then and a lot of people would have been unable to find a way past a wizards shield spells. Though there is the fact that a lot of these wizards might of died because they refused to kill mortals with magic. But most kills would of been non wizards or just plain innocents of witchcraft.
 
Of Church and Council

By Bob the Skull​

Despite the official doctrine of the Catholic Church on magic and the occult ranging from disbelief at best to hostility at worst, the latter of which claimed many lives through the ages, some with the spark of talent many without, the White Council has always maintained a line of communication, some might even say influence in the highest circles of Church power. It goes back to Rome, most things so. When the last Emperor fell and the Goths and later the Franks raised their realm in the shadow of the Colosseum and the Forum they had little interest in southern sorcerers nor in truth did the fledgling White Council have an interest in playing that part. The Merlin had learned well the lessons of the old Hermetic Circle, but Rome remained a trove of ancient lore which fell, like many things in those days, into the keeping of the Church.

Most likely the transfer was amiable and may have included whatever keepers had been set to guard the tomes and artifacts in the wake of the chaos taking their vows. While many older wizards were still pagan at this time, the younger generation had converted in large numbers, as large as one can speak of with regard to the pre-modern White Council. If you are imagining two people in white robes handing those books off at this point you may not be far wrong. In either case no one wanted a repeat of the destruction of the Serapeum in Alexandria.

Dark powers swelled though the chaotic final years of the Empire in the West, demons, hauntings and hunters of men rode through the night and only those powers that had been bound to the now much withered cities like the White Court suffered for the scattering of the population, the strife and ill speaking between Germanic rulers and Vulgate speaking locals. You would be surprised just how much mischief can be done by targeting people who can't or won't ask for help and no, that's not just my biases speaking. Especially following the Plague of Justinian a strain of extreme practicality marked the actions of those bishops assigned to deal with matters occult, nothing else would serve in the spirit of the times. Even later though as the Council not only mentained its presence in Spain after the Muslim Conquest but expanted it to the rest of the Arab world, reaching as far as India and Southeast Asia long before any merchants had sailed that way, the position of the Holy See remainted that it was better for wizards to dwell apart rather than offer advantage and temptation to kings and princes of all stripes. The White Council of the time encouraged this view of itself as quasi-monastic with Neo-Platonic accents, a relic of another time slow to change but harmless.

Consider how some people, naming no names because she scares me, bury their magic in part or in whole from their understanding of what faith requires of them? Well that isn't accidental, at least according to what wizards though. Factions within the Church, especially the inquisition hoped to strangle the Council of new members under the guise of doing the same to much more harmful groups. But for all Rome's reach was vast in those days it never lived up to its boast, never universal. In any case there are always going to be people who do not want to pass up on phenomenal cosmic power and for all its ups and downs in leadership, and there were some very deep downs there, the Church always at least saw an apprenticeship in the White Council as the lesser of two evils.

The Reformation was the moment when things almost broke down, amid accusations that magic had been used to drive common and royal folk alike from the arms of the Church. It certainly did not help when England threw its lot in with the heretics, nor the rumors that Anne Boleyn was in truth a witch. She might have had a minor talent for glamor-craft and not even have been aware of it by accounts later collected.

Cooler heads prevailed when a team of Wardens helped prevent an eruption of Mount Etna in 1555 precipitated by a striga cult that would have killed thousands quickly and most likely millions slowly by illness and starvation. The fact that the Protestants were even more likely to burn witches calmed fears about a political power play.

OOC: Since we do not have an update today, here's some historical background that occurred to me when we were speaking about magic and religion.

Uh where's the Irish Catholics' role in early Roman Catholic Church? Is Bob scared to talk about that because of Mab or some other member of the Winter Court?
 
Uh where's the Irish Catholics' role in early Roman Catholic Church? Is Bob scared to talk about that because of Mab or some other member of the Winter Court?

The early Irish Christians were in dubious communication with Rome because Ireland is rather far and also they had their own ideas on how to do things, that would be Insular Christianity. What role did you have in mind?
 
The early Irish Christians were in dubious communication with Rome because Ireland is rather far and also they had their own ideas on how to do things, that would be Insular Christianity. What role did you have in mind?

The relationship between the Hiberno-Scottish mission and the White Council specifically for this Informational post.

Edit: And the whole Ireland preserved the use of Latin thing.
 
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The relationship between the Hiberno-Scottish mission and the White Council specifically for this Informational post.

Edit: And the whole Ireland preserved the use of Latin thing.

This would be in the period when the White Council was just getting off the ground. At this point the wizards were busy tearing each other apart in the south, Britain was a backwater haunted by the worst cults and this weirdo called Ambrosius was gathering followers do go help his lover the Winter Court fight Outsiders.
 
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This would be in the period when the White Council was just getting off the ground. At this point the wizards were busy tearing each other apart in the south, Britain was a backwater haunted by the worst cults and their weirdo called Ambrosius was gathering followers do go help his lover the Winter Court fight Outsiders.

Wait if Merlin was down south, which yeah makes sense since his actual grave is usually claimed to be in France thought there are locations in the Isles with the same claim, what was all that business with Arthur in the Isles about?
 
It's debatable if Merlin is even dead in Dresden files or when he died and is still alive. Both can be true when you fuck with time as much as he did.
 
I know Mort. He's an ectomancer, and does literally nothing else.

Most sorcerers are nowhere that limited.
Victor Sells from the very first book Storm Front, for example did alchemy, summoning, astral projection/scrying, built killer golems, and cast ritual death spells from miles away.

Harry still considered him a sorcerer.
Binder is an another example of a focused sorcerer. Kravos is a bug in the matrix because he figured out how to eat other people's talents.


Quintus Cassius was bound to Saluriel, not Magog. The snake guy, not the gorilla guy.
He was the snake guy in Death Rites who gave up his Coin to Michael and Sanya when cornered, and later Grevane's backup in Dead Beat.
My point was to highlight the fact that different fallen have very different operational styles. Magog is still an unspeakably ancient fallen angle and presumably has lots of juicy lore. He just doesn't use it for anything because he's got even more issues than his siblings.

They also clearly have different skill levels at actually communicating with mortals without breaking Heaven's rules.

Hence the need for tutoring in the first place.


There is no textual backing I can recall for the assertion that Thorned Namshiel started out as a minor practitioner.
If you can present some, I'd be glad to discuss it further.
If not, Im willing to drop the conversation.
Other than him being directly called a sorcerer no.
I dont see why you would assume that him speaking colloqially in English would have the same nuances as a thirty something year old American wizard.
Nicodemus is a lot more plugged in than ancient spirits are, and where different names for this kind of thing are used they're either the equivalent from another culture or more specific to the relationship.

I don't think it's reasonable to tie the situation in knots to change the meaning of what a character said. On a more meta level, Butcher introduced these terms to inform the audience of that they meant in the context of the Dresden Files. People speak for the sake of the readers and nobody is going to confuse their own setting details for irrelevant IC linguistics games or whatever.
 
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