Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[X] Ask questions:
-[X] What about the Fallen's shadows? What would happen if one of them got loose in Sanctuary?
-[X] What if one were to break the coins, forge a hammer heavy enough, stoke a fire high enough?
-[X] Can you tell me what the Empyreal Chaos was or is. He Who Walks Unbowed called me his heir and I do not think it was in the mood to lie at that point
-[X] Also, can God reach into my kingdom or is that outside his domain and could Ammorachius enter if it were invited?
 
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The ExWoD book sets it out as a basic assumption that they're dead beyond all hope of recall. This isn't purely ExWoD, but the DF don't give a particular reason to deviate from that point.
It doesn't say that they're necessarily dead. It just says that there's no sign of them. It says that they might be dead, or they might be slumbering in a particularly distant realm.

If I was translating that to Dresden Files, then I'd make them one of the first targets of the Oblivion War. One of the first groups to be targeted to be forgotten, and that it has been quite successful.
 
[X] Ask questions:
-[X] What about the Fallen's shadows? What would happen if one of them got loose in Sanctuary?

Risks revealing Harry's secret to Charity
-[X] What if one were to break the coins, forge a hammer heavy enough, stoke a fire high enough?
Will scare both your parents
-[X] Can you tell me what the Empyreal Chaos was or is. He Who Walks Unbowed called me his heir and I do not think it was in the mood to lie at that point
You have to speak the Title aloud, it will probably not come out in English and will definitely worry both your parents
-[X] Also, can God reach into my kingdom or is that outside his domain and could Ammorachius enter if it were invited?

Better to inquire on everything and know now than remain in comforting ignorance in which we might stumble (or worse). We can reassure and comfort our parents for as much time as they need afterwards, but we don't know when we'll get a chance to talk to Uriel or another of the Lord's angels, let alone archangels, in a relatively secure and unpressured time and space again.

Personally, I'd be rather curious as to whether the White God has revealed Himself or influences or holds dominion over any of the other alien civilisations we now know exist in the Dresden universe, but that's not incredibly important right now to learn besides personal curiosity, especially compared to some of our other more pressing concerns, and I don't want to split the vote further over such a comparatively insignificant thing.

Arguably, a more pressing question would be whether such civilisations and species are vulnerable to subversion/conquest and then propagation of the Fallen, Lucifer, or Outsiders, or even worse. It would be especially dangerous if the Outside tore open and established a foothold or gateway within the Dresdenverse half the universe away, but until we have a practical means of (or even just a theoretical idea how to) reach or at least influence and communicate over such vast distances, such questions, while worth keeping in mind, are nevertheless likely superfluous to our current plans and circumstances (and again thusly an unnecessary complication splitting the vote from more immediately applicable questions).
 
Do you think Molly will mandate religious uniformity?
I think the real question is how effective they'd be.

While it appears that a decent chunk of the FCF's population is relatively young most of the time they still have a significant portion of very old people active in every level of society. Most of the young ones probably have regular exposure to multi centennial people hold positions of influence on multiple levels.

Things like religious identity can change, but generally people who've been faithful for a significant portion of their lives don't change their minds easily.

They also just had a core prophecy of their faint fulfilled with a bonus blessing that effected at least a hundred million people.

Then there's the stuff they probably took for granted that they now have a face to stick responsibility to, like the wheel.

What's the successful conversion rate going to look like when a prospective missionary has to deal with stuff like encountering a 500 year old dragon man who just saw the face of his goddess on TV hours after she extended immunity to cancer across what's effectively his entire ethnic group? How about the spider woman who's married to him and had to sit and watch all the unpleasant treatments he and their kids went through?

A situation that the missonary has to address with one of the biggest tools of this sort of thing missing; the fate of the soul after death. Something that applies to everyone they'll encounter.

Most adults have probably gone through the wheel at least once, and culturally death shouldn't be much of a terrifying mystery to them.

Missionary: "Aren't you concerned about the state of your soul after death?"

Random passerby: "Mostly I'm worried about the type of beer I'll drink afterwards to forget whatever killed me"


It doesn't say that they're necessarily dead. It just says that there's no sign of them. It says that they might be dead, or they might be slumbering in a particularly distant realm.

If I was translating that to Dresden Files, then I'd make them one of the first targets of the Oblivion War. One of the first groups to be targeted to be forgotten, and that it has been quite successful.
It's pretty clear in multiple places that the intent is for them to be dead or transformed, but that Holden habitually sticks a "you do you" qualifier on details like that for people who feel the need to keep pressing about it.

This FAQ entry is more explicit about it:


What happened to [insert Exalted character here]?
They're dead or transformed or fragmented so completely that they may as well be dead. Autochthon, the patron of the Liminals, and the Malfean Never- born are the only things that might have "survived" all the way from the Age of Legends to the present, and even that is up to you to decide. Even then, the lat- ter two might just be the nightmares of Grandmother, dreaming of the dreadful things that once accumulat- ed above her all-consuming maw in ages past.


The oblivion war isn't a good mapping for this, because the primordials don't give two shits if you believe in them or not. Mortals are the wall socket for their Xbox, their opinions are relevant only in how they effects power flow unless an exaltation is involved.

Pulling the new age new rules thing only goes so far.
 
I do like the idea that Autochthon, the one primordial that has the concept of 'death' built in, managed to outlive everyone and everything in creation and even now is hanging out in the void fighting his robo cancer.
Not sure he will ever be reachable in quest but the idea tickles me at least.
 
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Omake: Our Lady of the Lord Above
I wonder if from the perspective of other hell realms, and perhaps even Sanctuary - praying to, observing/following rituals, teachings and tenets, calling upon or even summoning the agents of the White God's will would be culturally seen as or even act upon the native metaphysical cosmology as if you were consorting with/summoning an eldritch, (inversely-) demonic or even quasi-Outsider influence or power on Earth? An amusing thought that the occult of a (relatively) free and benign hell realm such as ours turn to the Lord's teachings and trappings as to subvert and rebel against the current establishment, or to expand their personal opportunities, power and enlightenment, or even genuine, fanatical belief, through chasing "forbidden" power so alien as to even be inherently hostile (or at least subversive or transformative) as a by-product of its innate nature, to would-be acolyte's' own native reality!

"As Above, So Below. As we pray and give thanks to our Empress-Who-Has-Come for making our existence possible, so too does She pray and give thanks to a Lord above even Her, whom made Her own existence, and perhaps if the whispers are true, Her own Ascension possible. This Lord Above does not intercede in our or Her realms and lives not because He cannot, but because He chooses not to, for His power is such, His Sight so absolute and His Will so mighty and absolute, that His actions and so complete command reality would make all our own efforts, thoughts, individuality and machinations as meaningful of that of puppets and all the world not merely a stage - but as if a computer program, so absolute His power over the laws and entities of the reality above our own. He could make still the waters in which we are a reflection of Him, as to smooth out the ripples of our imperfections, but in doing so remove all distance and difference between us as individuals, and extensions of Himself, and so in respect of our own personhood, He refrains.

Mistake not His respect of our own wills to spurn or cherish His ever-loving, everlasting embrace for apathy - for He loves us such that He would send His only Son and Himself, to suffer and die in our place for our sins, as we so deserved, in death more cruel and absolute than any within the Turning of the Wheel have ever known. Upon the third day, he rose again to grant life everlasting to those beyond our Sanctuary amongst His Kingdom, if they would only love one another, as He had loved them and still loves us all.

And mistake not His infinite tender mercy for weakness, for there is nothing beyond those who work through and in furtherance of His almighty love. Rejoice and hallelujah! If the Empress is our Mother, then the LORD Above is our Grandfather! Let us bring what was taught to our Mother across the Below, and even Beyond, so that World Entire - Above, Below, and Beyond - might know His love as our Mother learnt Above!

Let as Above be so Below - and Beyond! Amen."


- DataNet, date and author unknown, retrieved from a shadow-site forum post, flagged for potential unknown spiritual influence, posting account believed to be affiliated with "Our Lady of the Lord Above" religious movement.
 
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so no one gonna make a write in? Cause otherwise the questions are gonna be rather random.

VOTE
[X] Plan Seraph
-[X] What about the Fallen's shadows? Are they their own people, or just a mask for the Fallen? What would happen if one of them got loose in Sanctuary? Or on Earth? Or...acquired a body of their own?
-[X] Can you tell me what the Empyreal Chaos was or is. He Who Walks Unbowed called me his heir and I do not think it was in the mood to lie at that point
-[X] Can you tell me who the Makers were, what the Makers sought to make, and what they actually ended up with?
-[X] Can you tell me what my power is called?
-[X] Are there other powers like mine around?
-[X] Can Yama Kings be fixed/redeemed?
-[X] Whatever you can tell me about the Neverborn
-[X] Do her people go on to whatever their fate of other mortals is when they choose to pass on?
-[X] Also, can God reach into my kingdom or is that outside his domain and could Ammorachius enter if it were invited?



RATIONALE
In order:
Lash, Malfeas, the Primordials, Exalts, Emma-O, the Neverborn

And I included a question about Molly's name.
Because IC, Molly doesnt know that she is an Infernal Exalt.
Figuring out what the name of her power is supposed to be is the least Uriel could do.

Names are important.
 
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VOTE
[X] Plan Seraph
-[X] What about the Fallen's shadows? Are they their own people, or just a mask for the Fallen? What would happen if one of them got loose in Sanctuary? Or on Earth? Or...acquired a body of their own?
-[X] Can you tell me what the Empyreal Chaos was or is. He Who Walks Unbowed called me his heir and I do not think it was in the mood to lie at that point
-[X] Can you tell me who the Makers were, what the Makers sought to make, and what they actually ended up with?
-[X] Can you tell me what my power is called?
-[X] Are there other powers like mine around?
-[X] Can Yama Kings be fixed/redeemed?
-[X] Whatever you can tell me about the Neverborn
-[X] Do her people go on to whatever their fate of other mortals is when they choose to pass on? Or



RATIONALE
In order:
Lash, Malfeas, the Primordials, Exalts, Emma-O, the Neverborn

And I included a question about Molly's name.
Because IC, Molly doesnt know that she is an Infernal Exalt.
Figuring out what the name of her power is supposed to be is the least Uriel could do.

Names are important.
The guy is getting up to leave and we didn't barter with him on the apology we got. I agree with that decision, but the result is that he has no particular obligation to share this information and clearly doesn't have any personal intent to.

I doubt we'll get to ask every question we have on our minds and actually receive answers.

We should probably prioritize here on the expectation that he only answers a few before walking out.
 
Any conversion to Christianity is very unlikely for the following reasons:
1) Mercy in Servitude affects our followers. That's a real ongoing active large scale miracle. White God does not do those in modern times
2) the nature of the Wheel rather strongly interferes with the concepts of hell and eternal damnation
3) Non-human races cannot be said to be made in the image of god
4) Bible mythology (the creation mythos, histories and such) do not work in Sanctuary's environment.

Now, could Christianity be adapted to all those issues? Probably, but it would not be anything resembling normal Catholicism. And barring Molly's own direct intervention and making her own religion public and a matter of politics, I won't see many converts. This would be a trial by fire for the concepts developed to preach among aliens, however.
 
The guy is getting up to leave and we didn't barter with him on the apology we got. I agree with that decision, but the result is that he has no particular obligation to share this information and clearly doesn't have any personal intent to.

I doubt we'll get to ask every question we have on our minds and actually receive answers.
We should probably prioritize here on the expectation that he only answers a few before walking out.

He'll answer what he wants to answer, and pass on what he doesnt want to answer, or isnt allowed to.
If you dont ask, you wont know which is which.
Much the same as with Dresden. Some questions get answered. Some dont.

Remember, archangel with intellectus.
He may or may not be able to read our mind(or be allowed to), but he's known us since we were born, and has a comprehensive history of what we've been up to since we Exalted, and has thousands of years of dealing with Humanity to fall back on.

He probably already knows what questions we are most likely/interested in asking.
IC.
 
Any conversion to Christianity is very unlikely for the following reasons:
1) Mercy in Servitude affects our followers. That's a real ongoing active large scale miracle. White God does not do those in modern times
2) the nature of the Wheel rather strongly interferes with the concepts of hell and eternal damnation
3) Non-human races cannot be said to be made in the image of god
4) Bible mythology (the creation mythos, histories and such) do not work in Sanctuary's environment.

Now, could Christianity be adapted to all those issues? Probably, but it would not be anything resembling normal Catholicism. And barring Molly's own direct intervention and making her own religion public and a matter of politics, I won't see many converts. This would be a trial by fire for the concepts developed to preach among aliens, however.
Nothing preventing someone who converts to Christianity in the Brass Courts acknowledging Molly as a powerful supernatural being who they owe allegiance. Its not like Christianity denies that they exist; indeed, anyone who reads the Bible will come across mentions of such just in the normal bible, and thats before reading stuff like the Apocrypha.

Its not like Molly is asking for worship.
All it took the Jade Dogs was pledging loyalty, which is no more than people enlisting in the army do.
Or even just US school children taking the Pledge of Allegiance.
 
[X] Ask questions:
-[X] What about the Fallen's shadows? What would happen if one of them got loose in Sanctuary?
-[X] Can you tell me what the Empyreal Chaos was or is. He Who Walks Unbowed called me his heir and I do not think it was in the mood to lie at that point
 
I wonder if from the perspective of other hell realms, and perhaps even Sanctuary - praying to, observing/following rituals, teachings and tenets, calling upon or even summoning the agents of the White God's will would be culturally seen as or even act upon the native metaphysical cosmology as if you were consorting with/summoning an eldritch, (inversely-) demonic or even quasi-Outsider influence or power on Earth? An amusing thought that the occult of a (relatively) free and benign hell realm such as ours turn to the Lord's teachings and trappings as to subvert and rebel against the current establishment, or to expand their personal opportunities, power and enlightenment, or even genuine, fanatical belief, through chasing "forbidden" power so alien as to even be inherently hostile (or at least subversive or transformative) as a by-product of its innate nature, to would-be acolyte's' own native reality!

"As Above, So Below. As we pray and give thanks to our Empress-Who-Has-Come for making our existence possible, so too does She pray and give thanks to a Lord above even Her, whom made Her own existence, and perhaps if the whispers are true, Her own Ascension possible. This Lord Above does not intercede in our or Her realms and lives not because He cannot, but because He chooses not to, for His power is such, His Sight so absolute and His Will so mighty and absolute, that His actions and so complete command reality would make all our own efforts, thoughts, individuality and machinations as meaningful of that of puppets and all the world not merely a stage - but as if a computer program, so absolute His power over the laws and entities of the reality above our own.

Mistake not His respect of our own wills to spurn or cherish His ever-loving, everlasting embrace for apathy - for He loves us such that He would send His only Son and Himself, to suffer and die in our place for our sins, as we so deserved, in death more cruel and absolute than any within the Turning of the Wheel have ever known. Upon the third day, he rose again to grant life everlasting to those beyond our Sanctuary amongst His Kingdom, if they would only love one another, as He had loved them and still loves us all.

And mistake not His infinite tender mercy for weakness, for there is nothing beyond those who work through and in furtherance of His almighty love. Rejoice and hallelujah! If the Empress is our Mother, then the LORD Above is our Grandfather! Let us bring what was taught to our Mother across the Below, and even Beyond, so that World Entire - Above, Below, and Beyond - might know His love as our Mother learnt Above!

Let as Above be so Below - and Beyond! Amen."


- DataNet, date and author unknown, retrieved from a shadow-site forum post, flagged for potential unknown spiritual influence, posting account believed to be affiliated with "Our Lady of the Lord Above" religious movement.

Not sure is this was intended as an omake, but it's a cool snippet and it's my thread so I decide what an omake is ;)
 
[X] Plan Seraph

Switching to this plan as it covers basically a good range of what we need to ask in a way that won't frighten or worry our parents enough and is probably concise enough that we can get all of them answered. I was hesitating because it doesn't address breaking the coins, but I realised the answer would almost certainly be that those within the coins would be set free to wreak havoc upon the world (they were put into those coins originally by the White God or at least His forces/agents/followers as to imprison them, correct?), so its unnecessary stress to our parents to hubris-bait with this suggestion (at least with our current techniques, powers, resources and plans).

Would be nice to ask how to allow or welcome White God aligned forces/entities and artifacts into Sanctuary, but I suppose its probably something about not provoking conflict with the hells (as if they could detect heavenly-aligned entities and items enter a hell, or be even invited in, they might see that as an escalatory power play by the new hell to concede some measure of sovereignty to the White God in return for support/backing to gain power over other hells, perhaps even to some paranoid observers prelude to a full invasion, which could invite collective hostile action against us as a pre-emptive strike against the threat they imagine we are - and to be fair, could very well be) or a general principle of respecting the free will of hell and its inhabitants to be apart from the White God and not follows His ways (and in doing so perpetuating their own ruin, suffering and doom, via rejection of being/doing all that is good, due to so much as tangential association to the White God), or some other unknown (perhaps, at least without our crown, unknowable) plan, purpose, reason, aspect, or motivation Uriel might or might not deign to answer us with. Regardless, its seems like its worth asking.

@uju32, would you be willing to add this question into your plan so that we can better consolidate our votes? If you think it could be worded better feel free to change it.

-[X] Also, can God reach into my kingdom or is that outside his domain and could Ammorachius enter if it were invited?


-[X] Do her people go on to whatever their fate of other mortals is when they choose to pass on? Or

Quick question though, @uju32, is the final question cut off after the "Or" at the start of a new sentence, or was that an extra word accidently added on? Sorry to bother you, just wanted to make sure we got your full plan as you intended it to be presented.

Not sure is this was intended as an omake, but it's a cool snippet and it's my thread so I decide what an omake is ;)
Yeah thanks, I generally don't start writing these things as an omake, but as I expand upon and flesh out the idea it becomes one.
 
Switching to this plan as it covers basically a good range of what we need to ask in a way that won't frighten or worry our parents enough and is probably concise enough that we can get all of them answered. I was hesitating because it doesn't address breaking the coins, but I realised the answer would almost certainly be that those within the coins would be set free to wreak havoc upon the world (they were put into those coins originally by the White God or at least His forces/agents/followers as to imprison them, correct?), so its unnecessary stress to our parents to hubris-bait with this suggestion (at least with our current techniques, powers, resources and plans).
Yes, its explicitly been asked before, and answered by Jim Butcher back in 2006:
Word of Jim said:
Quote from: Bob on November 30, 2006, 09:31:59 PM

It seems to me that as long as the Church has some of the coins, those paerticular Denarians are neutralized. Doing a Mt Doom with the coins might free up the spirits housed within to act freely in the world.

Well. Not quite freely, but MORE freely, certainly. The Fallen bound in the coins are the freaking elite of Hell–everyone the big D didn't want trying to stab him in the back, basically. If they were suddenly freed it would do all kinds of horrible things to about a million balances of power, with repercussions that would last for centuries.

Which assumes that they /can/ be destroyed. I mean, don't think that in 2,000 years, no one has ever TRIED it. And there are still thirty of them kicking around.
Which isn't necessarily to say that it's impossible. But it sure as Hell wouldn't be easy. And given that, while in the coins, they ARE effectively frozen in carbonite without a human agent to assist them, containment certainly seems to be a prudent course.

Funny you should mention that whole notion about redeeming Lasciel . . . >:)
Jim
Basically breaking a Coin has been tried before, and failed.
It isnt impossible to do, but its such an all around horrible idea that noone who might have the power to do so is going to be willing to try.

Given that Uriel explicitly told Molly not to take them into her soul because it would allow Lucifer to act more freely, she can extrapolate to what would happen if she managed to break a Coin on Earth.
@uju32, would you be willing to add this question into your plan so that we can better consolidate our votes? If you think it could be worded better feel free to change it.
Sure, no problem.
Gimme a couple minutes to edit it.
Quick question though, @uju32, is the final question cut off after the "Or" at the start of a new sentence, or was that an extra word accidently added on? Sorry to bother you, just wanted to make sure we got your full plan as you intended it to be presented.
Oops. Error, will fix.
 
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The question about the Coins is more relevant to "what if we true-kill them", not just breaking the prison.

Would Lucifer get to send out another demon to keep the number at 30, or would we be allowed to take someone off the game-board permanently?
 
The question about the Coins is more relevant to "what if we true-kill them", not just breaking the prison.

Would Lucifer get to send out another demon to keep the number at 30, or would we be allowed to take someone off the game-board permanently?
1)You cant kill them.
Not easily, not without a fuckton of collateral damage.
They're Fallen Angels, with the focus on Angel. Entities like that dont die easy, even to Exalts; ask the Neverborn.


2) The answer is right there in Butcher's reply:
Well. Not quite freely, but MORE freely, certainly. The Fallen bound in the coins are the freaking elite of Hell–everyone the big D didn't want trying to stab him in the back, basically. If they were suddenly freed it would do all kinds of horrible things to about a million balances of power, with repercussions that would last for centuries.
And in Uriel's warning to Molly:
"The Fallen who follow Anduriel will come against you, soon or late, but come they will. Do not attempt to seal any coins you might capture within your soul. You might be able to contain one, though it would be agony with every breath, in time you might even be able to befuddle and trick them to make the task easier. None of that matters for in taking them beyond the reach of mortal temptation you will have permitted Lucifer great latitude in breaking them out."
Thats about as close as the Archangel of Free Will will come to telling you hands off.
 
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1)You cant kill them.
Not easily, not without a fuckton of collateral damage.
They're Fallen Angels, with the focus on Angel. Entities like that dont die easy, even to Exalts; ask the Neverborn.
Killing them certainly wouldn't be easy.

But at least we could be sure that we can make it stick, if we ever got to that point.

And Uriel's warning is specifically about keeping the Coins imprisoned in our Hell, not about attempts to destroy them, or their inhabitants.
 
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