Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Then suddenly a medium-sized man transforms into a bear the size of a van, and all conservation of mass-energy considerations go out of the window. Or Dresden conjures up a physical container out of ectoplasm and stabilizes it into solid matter. Or freezes a good chunk of a harbor by "pouring cold energy into it"
No it doesn't. They are just using energy to make that mass, they just have access to energy that most physicist can't percive.
I trust the wizards, including the people who go back to university every couple decades to refresh their knowledge of modern advancements, to know better than you or me how to train wizards.
I don't, they are grossly incompetent at basically everything important.

They can't control magic users at scale, they can't teach enough people, their organisations is heavily infiltrated, they don't proactively fight threats to all reality. Not to mentioned the fucking bullshit they have done to harry, its a wonder that idiot learned to lead with the amount of stupid, and i do mean this sincerely, secrets they keep for no reason.
 
Fair point about McCoy's paranoia.
Still, rational thought doesnt mean they cant be, or arent capricious. Or untrue to their natures; the Fae tend to demand some equivalent service, and how they determine whats appropriate can be....unpredictable.

Lesser summer fey appear to be the ones who would not have the power to automatically heal people.
And Summer is as much about disease as they are about healing; both involve growth, if of different things.
See Mother Summer's storage shelf.

I still remember that some of the major losses of the Council was when they were using the hospital in Central Africa.
That suggests a lack of easy access to supernatural healing resources in story.
On an institutional level.

Yes they are certainly about disease as they are all life, but that is not to say they do not get to pick favorites: 'This life, the wizard gets to live, that life bubonic plague gets to loose', that is the definition of using magic, sponsored or not.

There is just a worldbuilding problem with how common regeneration is for non-humans and how uncommon it is for wizards when one adds sponsored magic into the mix. Butcher wanted injury to come with significant stakes to Harry , but he also wanted monsters that would not die. Then he added ways for wizards to get the monster powers because that is part of the theme and now the worldbuilding is looking rather shaky. Still when it comes to the modern stuff if it still salvageable, but wizards cowering in their towers from the plague as in that WoG does not work in my opinion, because there would be no White Council, wizards would have sold out for a way to not die off to the many many epidemics that plagued the ancient world if they were as vulnerable as ordinary mortals. It is not just traveling.

Anyway it's midnight for me, I'll be more than happy to talk more about this in the morning, maybe even put up an informational post for how it works in the quest.
 
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Not to mentioned the fucking bullshit they have done to harry, its a wonder that idiot learned to lead with the amount of stupid, and i do mean this sincerely, secrets they keep for no reason.
For most of canon story Harry, from outside, looks sketchier than Molly with her Sword and Shintai in this very quest. We don't see it much, as we follow the story from Harry's perspective, but some characters mention it from time to time when they try to get through his thick head. A lot of the time Harry looks like he double, or even triple teams for multiple supernatural factions. And no one is sure for whom he is actually working.

The fact that he has almost no points of contact with WC and almost never visits their compounds also doesn't help. And most times when he and their agents meet is when something is on fire or there is some other kind of crisis with Harry in the middle.
 
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To me it seems they had it and lost it, they had the expertice to heal themselves, my body, my mind, my soul, should not a warlock mane, but itIs likely where warlocks and many monsters came from, where they slipped, or started helping others and fell the deep end.

And so the council restricted knowledge until it became nigh unusable.
 
No it doesn't. They are just using energy to make that mass, they just have access to energy that most physicist can't percive.
Yeah, no.
There is zero indication of wizards knowingly channelling energy to make mass, and the sheer amount of energy in a single kilogram of matter comes to double digit megatons.

As for physics?
McCoy certainly knew fuckall about modern tectonics when he set off the New Madrid earthquakes.
Or Krakatoa.
I don't, they are grossly incompetent at basically everything important.

They can't control magic users at scale, they can't teach enough people, their organisations is heavily infiltrated, they don't proactively fight threats to all reality. Not to mentioned the fucking bullshit they have done to harry, its a wonder that idiot learned to lead with the amount of stupid, and i do mean this sincerely, secrets they keep for no reason.
None of this is true.
The White Council has not survived a thousand years by being incompetent. You just happen to see them in a bad spot, and specifically through the PoV of a character with good reason to bear a grudge and no insight into why they do the things they do.

As for Harry, as others have pointed out, from the external PoV Harry looks sketchy as shit.
Lemme quote one of the many comments on this on the Dresden Files reddit
Article:
So we as readers see Harry fail, we feel his pain, see every time he's a complete idiot and every time he survives due to allies, luck, etc. But most of the world doesn't.
Most of the world sees a walking powerhouse with every possibility of becoming an unstoppable nightmare.

Do I think the WC was right to kick out Harry, hell no.
Do I completely understand why they did? Absolutely.

Let's run down an incomplete list of the things Harry has done FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE OUTSIDE WORLD.

As an untrained teenager he kills one of the senior Wardens of the council in a duel and flattens his home (presumably a magical fortress like Harry's place), a warden who was part of the team who took down Kemmler. He then gets off on a technicality and begins publicly declaring himself a wizard to the world.

He starts a war with the Red Court over a personal tiff (again, this if from the outside perspective) and kicks it off by killing a member of their nobility in the heart of her power and destroying her entire retinue.

He survives a duel to the death with the Warlord of the Red Court, for some unknown reason a Knight of the Cross shows up as his second. That Knight ends up death within days, brutally tortured.

He dethrones Lord Wraith and faces down Mavra in a 12 hour period.
He has support from The Blackstaff, The Hellhound, and mortal authorities.

He is seen publicly repeatedly with Laura and Thomas Wraith, the beginning of a troubling pattern.

He has killed not one, not two, but THREE Faerie queens (again this is public perception not facts).

He has called up the Senior Council and offered to take them all on, then actually SHOWED UP to back it up. In the course of doing so is aided by werewolves, a White Court hit team, and displays unexplained knowledge and power concerning the Well.

He survived and won a fight that semi-killed Luccio, and downed Morgan. Finished the fight by killing three Major league necromancer's. In addition he is aided by a Foo Dog, performs Necromancy on the very edge of legality, SHOOTS Luccio in the head, and summons the frickin Erlking.

He again survived a fight that crippled Luccio and destroyed a bastion of the White Court.
Is involved in yet another White Court affair when he intervenes in the Coup, is aided by Marcone and Einherjaren, displays hellfire and a working knowledge of Ancient Etruscan, and almost dies saving Laura Wraith.

Tortures a Ghoul to death while interrogating him in Sumerian, displaying incredible power over firemagic to do so.

He assaulted Arctis Tor, and instead of taking vengeance Mab made him her freaking Knight.
He robbed Hades and escaped alive.
He wiped the entire Red Court off the face of the Earth.
He bound Eithniu and took her eye.

He is the Warden of Demonreach prison.
He's also allies with Chicago Police and regularly is involved in bringing mortal authorities into Supernatural affairs.

He sponsored a CRIME LORD as a Freeholding Lord of the accords and has worked with him on several occasions including fighting a Denarians and Ethniu.
He is a regular ally of the Knights of the Cross and yet has also worked hand in hand with the Denarians.

Has enthralled enough Wild Fae to scare multiple top tier power houses during the Battle of Chicago.
He holds at least one of the Swords, and at one point held two.

He has been seen throwing Soulfire and Hellfire around.
He's been unable to speak basic latin but is somehow fluent in Ancient Sumerian and Etruscan.

He was shot to death. Died. And fucking came back.
He announced his return by killing TWO queens of the Sidhe on his mega darkside island during a naval battle between OUTSIDERS and the WILD HUNT.

Without insider knowledge Harry is fucking terrifying.
 
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Yeah, no.
There is zero indication of wizards knowingly channelling energy to make mass, and the sheer amount of energy in a single kilogram of matter comes to double digit megatons.

As for physics?
McCoy certainly knew fuckall about modern tectonics when he set off the New Madrid earthquakes.
Or Krakatoa.
Yeah. WoD is pretty close to Dresdenfiles magic. Minus the Paradox but plus additional mental contamination.
Another analogue is Telesma in its To Aru interpretation with Espers. And Book of the Law by Crowley in general.
It's all about Will shaping reality. Physics is a conductor for some of the spells at best.
 
Also note that in this AU?

He's currently cohabiting with a female Nephilim of unknown origins, and associating with the daughter of a death god that used to work for Winter, and the next best thing to a mortal Hell-Queen. A Hell-queen who employs Whampires and ghouls and claimed a section of Undertown as her personal territory.

Harry really isnt looking less sketchy to external observers in this AU :V
Yeah. WoD is pretty close to Dresdenfiles magic. Minus the Paradox but plus additional mental contamination.
Another analogue is Telesma in its To Aru interpretation with Espers. And Book of the Law by Crowley in general.
It's all about Will shaping reality. Physics is a conductor for some of the spells at best.
^^^
A lot of the less showy feats are some of the most appallingly powerful if regarded in physics terms. When you do the math on how much energy there is involved in materializing an object, the ability for a wizard to control it by accident makes all of them city killers. Two kilograms of matter has almost as much energy as the Tsar Bomba.

When Dresden talks about shit like briefly stopping gravity over an area roughly a mile wide, you are in the "I can cause megadeaths" tier of energy manipulation.

Anyway it's midnight for me, I'll be more than happy to talk more about this in the morning, maybe even put up an informational post for how it works in the quest.
Coming back to the dog search?
It should be entirely possible for Lydia to take a pack as a Familiar. Not one animal, but say four to twelve.
And most of them stay at her estate while one accompanies her.
 
Also note that in this AU?

He's currently cohabiting with a female Nephilim of unknown origins, and associating with the daughter of a death god that used to work for Winter, and the next best thing to a mortal Hell-Queen. A Hell-queen who employs Whampires and ghouls and claimed a section of Undertown as her personal territory.
Well, to be fair, the White Council is Molly's ally, they officially exchange technology. I wonder how that affects their reputation.


But in general, we need to get together one day and try to collect rumors and news about Molly in order to assess her reputation.
 
Thresholds are literally a universal merit that reduce a specific threat vector to mortals, magic-users or nah. Children are universally protected against soulgazes until they reach age and maturity.
I dont see how this would be any different in the setting.
Because we saw the setting from the eyes of a wizard and nothing like it was ever even implied? You're inventing a universal law where there wasn't one to solve a problem that already has an answer.

Could a system like the DF support such a change? Sure, maybe. It doesn't though.
 
Not saying that DF doesn't break energy requirements over it's knee a bunch of times. But in the case of making anything out of ectoplasm I assume that ectoplasm is some sort of less energy demanding type of matter somehow. Higs or something, but the stuff is very different from anything that actually exists.
 
Well, to be fair, the White Council is Molly's ally, they officially exchange technology. I wonder how that affects their reputation.
I'm pretty sure all we did was give them some guns to try out. I would certainly hope that we haven't been giving them tech in the background because we don't need to deal with traitors using our tech against us.
 
I'm pretty sure all we did was give them some guns to try out. I would certainly hope that we haven't been giving them tech in the background because we don't need to deal with traitors using our tech against us.
Yes, but it is still an exchange and in general we are on much friendlier terms than they are with many powers of the supernatural world.
 
Yes, but it is still an exchange and in general we are on much friendlier terms than they are with many powers of the supernatural world.
The fact that they are currently at war and Molly shares about all their enemies just makes for a natural alliance. Likely could have gotten away with being much more hardball in the negotiations.
 
The fact that they are currently at war and Molly shares about all their enemies just makes for a natural alliance. Likely could have gotten away with being much more hardball in the negotiations.
I don't think so, one of the biggest issues was that our power gave serious questions to everyone on the good side and they didn't know us, plus the war situation isn't as terrible as it could be, with Morgan killing a Lord of the Outer Night and the trainee directors hadn't been killed yet, to make the Council not care about the issues mentioned previously, so we were in little bargaining position.

We got a leg up on their door because of our father's reputation, that we lived in his house and the literal guardian angels didn't kill us, Harry's support and how well we handled our personal meeting with Merlin. After that, showing how advantageous our weapons were, having received their delegation very well, having developed a greater relationship with the Director responsible for half of the USA (with Harry being responsible for the other half), bearing in mind that Carlos had developed an intimacy for Molly after their conversations, and that we continue to show both our power and our goal of supporting the Good with our actions in Vegas and Boston.

After all this, when we formalize our alliance with the White Council, we will have a much stronger position to negotiate benefits than before.

@DragonParadox I just realized that you also need to update the contact list, which is super outdated and missing people after you finish creating the Character Sheets for our clones.
 
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Easiest way to help the White council is to get VEE training new wizards to take part in the war will go a lot better when they all the merit to learn blasting magic that Dresden has. Or having a dozen new people that can heal something super rare, a talent we can give out easily.

As for getting infinite power that easy with a knowledge of advanced physics and and a bit of magic. Just off the top suspend the strong and/or weak nuclear force for a bit and nuclear waste will reform into stuff you can put back into your reactor.
 
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Easiest way to help the White council is to get VEE training new wizards to take part in the war will go a lot better when they all the merit to learn blasting magic that Dresden has. Or having a dozen new people that can heal something super rare, a talent we can give out easily.

As for getting infinite power that easy with a knowledge of advanced physics and and a bit of magic. Just off the top suspend the strong and/or weak nuclear force for a bit and nuclear waste will reform into stuff you can put back into your reactor.

For the first thing, the council would NOT let us use VEE on any significant amount of wizards with only the 'trust me bro' on us not abusing the Mind Control aspect.

Second, don't assume the gap between magic and science can be crossed that easy- the amount of magic it takes to do something is often disproportionate from the amount of 'measurable physics based energies' involved. Transmutation of Nuclear Waste to viable reactor fuel may be possible, but it could be inordinately expensive metaphysically on the premise of 'transforming to a state of greater potential', or it could be cheaper because of metaphysical muddling between people's ideas of 'glowing green goop' and 'viable nuclear fuel'. I'm not a metaphysicist.
 
For the first thing, the council would NOT let us use VEE on any significant amount of wizards with only the 'trust me bro' on us not abusing the Mind Control aspect.
We can just have them walk across the room to pay off the debt, it does not have to take more then 5 seconds.
Second, don't assume the gap between magic and science can be crossed that easy- the amount of magic it takes to do something is often disproportionate from the amount of 'measurable physics based energies' involved. Transmutation of Nuclear Waste to viable reactor fuel may be possible, but it could be inordinately expensive metaphysically on the premise of 'transforming to a state of greater potential', or it could be cheaper because of metaphysical muddling between people's ideas of 'glowing green goop' and 'viable nuclear fuel'. I'm not a metaphysicist.
The best modern power generators are in the high 90+% range of efficiency. It just takes a little push to cross the threshold to being power positive, to get into the 101%+ range, in any number of ways.
 
Wherefore Plague Upon a Wizard's Head
Wherefore Plague Upon a Wizard's Head

By Bob the Skull

The hypothetical average wizard tends to be more resistant to infectious disease than most people because they lack some of the aggravating factors thanks to their natural resilience. In and of itself that is not going to save one from large scale or especially novel infections. Rare is the wizard who can simply by magic alone cure infectious illness, power over life requires a deft hand and a humble temperament before the many tricks that nature has in store. That said for as long as there have been wizards there have been magical work-arounds for that limitation. It was said by some of the Wise that when Pope Clement the Sixth had a ring of flame built around himself to protect from the plague he was imitating the works of wizards who used wards of flame for like protections.

A less brute force protection used by practitioners of the secret arts, not just those fortunate enough to name themselves wizards was and to a degree still alchemy, though most brewers required an understanding of what they would be guarding against, indeed by the principle of sympathy a sample of the disease in question would most often have to be used... with all the risks that come with harvesting it. It was not only necromancers who took by stealth the dead from graveyards through the long ages.

Yet for all of this one of the greatest fears of the ordinary wizard, to the extent that such a thing could be said to exist in the days when men were yet much fewer, was a plague they did not see coming, from far off lands unknown. It is said in the Apollonian Scrolls which one of my masters read many centuries after they have been penned that without the specter of the Red Pox, what history recalls as the Plague of Justinian, the White Council might never have grown as large as it eventually did, a dominant force first around the Mediterranean then up into Germania and Scandinavia, winding down the trade routes into Central Asia and the Middle East. Organized wizards could pass from hand to hand a cure to the plague ahead of its advance making use of pacts with spirits or the fey who knew the ways of the Nevernever.

And that brings us to the elephant in the room... You know that saying is really odd, most elephants do not fit in most rooms, sponsorship. Many spirits can heal or ward off ilness, including but not limited to spirits of nature, summer fey, the patrons of healing springs and serpent spitits. But such bargains are never without cost, even if the cost is simply opening yourself to the meddling on the spirit and so not lightly used now as then.

Finally there are those arts that pass from light to grey almost to black. Yes Harry said I could talk about them... well OK he didn't say I couldn't talk about them. See what I mean about spirits? Anyway it isn't technically a breach of any of the laws to drain another's vitality in order to fortify one's own health, at least as long as the act does not go so far as to kill in an of itself. Still the Wardens have ever taken a dim view of such spells and those who practiced them.

OOC: Here we go my thoughts on wizards and plague and some more Bob, we have not heard from him in a while
 
On the topic of the White Court feeling politically isolated with having cut off from the red; should we make any further inroads with them or just keep up the current situation of ignoring each other and maybe giving a tip off when things are going down?

Does the White Court have anything to offer us?
 
Unfortunately there isn't much we can safely do before addressing the traitor and Outsider situation. I'd say ignore them until we start looking into that.
I was changing the topic and talking about the White Court vampires. Not the wizards. Obviously the wizards have loads to offer us. We have a population of 5 billion people. That's a lot of potential wizards if we can get the lore.

Do wish that we could do this wizard training camp in our Kingdom. Much easier to keep safe.
 
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Does the White Court have anything to offer us?
I'd say it would be a decent idea to hash out an under the table deal with Lara where she sends those whamps who have trouble working with their demon in Molly's direction. Of course Molly can try to take the whole Court but that's gonna be hard and risks all of them scuttling like cockroaches in all directions. Better to chip away at their base and slowly push them in a more palatable position.

Propose minor incentives and trade deals to moderate whamps, help to remove the most diehard traditionalists using whamp proxies and so on. It's a lot of work and would probably take decades but it shouldn't be that hard - Molly has a whole world to pull resources from and whamps are not that numerous.
 
I'd say it would be a decent idea to hash out an under the table deal with Lara where she sends those whamps who have trouble working with their demon in Molly's direction. Of course Molly can try to take the whole Court but that's gonna be hard and risks all of them scuttling like cockroaches in all directions. Better to chip away at their base and slowly push them in a more palatable position.

Propose minor incentives and trade deals to moderate whamps, help to remove the most diehard traditionalists using whamp proxies and so on. It's a lot of work and would probably take decades but it shouldn't be that hard - Molly has a whole world to pull resources from and whamps are not that numerous.
That doesn't really require any deal at all just us spreading gossip and vampires like Thomas and Isabella being obviously happy and successful.
 
The White Court has a lot of connections to the mortal world. They can blackmail pretty much anybody in power who has a skeleton in their closet, and Lara could call in a helicopter on short notice. She's Jeffrey Epstein Plus, only nobody can silence her.

So that's definitely something we could try and get in a deal, if we wanted or needed to for whatever reason.
 
I was changing the topic and talking about the White Court vampires
Oops. In my defense the term reads similar at a glance. At any rate those guys aren't as bad as the Reds or whatever have you but that's a low bar. A lot of them still see people as 'kine' just as the others do, they are just better at hiding it.

In the long run I'm not sure how viable ridding them of such a mentality is as they need to kill someone to turn in the first place. Honestly if not for them taking up space that more dangerous predators who don't see value in coexisting would otherwise occupy id mark them all off as ergreouisly unnecessary from an in universe standpoint.

Unless we want their help to deal with the bigger monsters or want to try making them a less fundamentally abhorrent organization I'd rather pretend they don't exist and leave it at that for now unless they start causing even more problems. I'm opposed to giving them resources so they can do as vampires do more efficiently or something.

The Last Dogs are a bit different as we know they aren't hurting people anymore or at least no one we don't want them to.


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They can blackmail pretty much anybody in power who has a skeleton in their closet
We can do the exact same thing.
 
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