Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[Goldfish]

2) Based on their canon? ALWAYS let a Denarian monologue. They invariably drop hints and information about their goals and methods; Cassius/Saluriel did it, Nicodemus/Anduriel does it, Deirdre does it, her mother Lartessa does it.
Namshiel did it; thats how his host died in Small Favor.

Arrogance is a defining factor for people who knowingly make deals and actively partner with Fallen Angels.

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As both you and I have pointed out more than once throughout the thread, we shouldn't assume incompetence on behalf of our enemies. Assuming Namshiel will let slip something useful to us now is wishful thinking.

More likely, he would drop some damaging secret that we don't want anyone to know about or misinformation that distracts at a critical moment, though I have to admit the likelihood of that is pretty low.

Also, I'm slightly wary of leaving the device intact any longer than absolutely necessary. Namshiel could have any number of unpleasant surprises baked into it.

 

[uju32]

As both you and I have pointed out more than once throughout the thread, we shouldn't assume incompetence on behalf of our enemies. Assuming Namshiel will let slip something useful to us now is wishful thinking.

More likely, he would drop some damaging secret that we don't want anyone to know about or misinformation that distracts at a critical moment, though I have to admit the likelihood of that is pretty low.

Also, I'm slightly wary of leaving the device intact any longer than absolutely necessary. Namshiel could have any number of unpleasant surprises baked into it.

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This isnt about overconfidence.
We have been told IC that Molly thinks the trap was set for wizards/wardens. He was expecting to tango with Wardens, because these are the Hidden Halls. He wasnt expecting Molly. There's no playbook for it.

And no, it isnt wishful thinking. Namshiel let slip information to Harry in canon about soulfire.
Nicodemus let slip information about the Aquarium trap when talking to Harry, and about internal factional politics.
They do it all the time, even without an Exalt using superhuman social skills


Damaging secrets we dont want anyone else to know? I cant imagine what that could be; the demon lord already told the wizards Tiffany is nephilim, so what else Namshiel could say is beyond me.
Besides, its a cellphone, not a stereo system. Why would Molly have it on speaker for everyone to hear?


Molly explicitly has the Surprise Negator anima ability of hers active.
He doesnt have any unpleasant surprises in this that Molly cant see coming.

 

[BoredMan]

Yeah this works. It's weird to think that someone so old would be vulnerable to the "Saturday morning cartoon villain blabs about his evil plan and gets thwarted because of it" trope but it happens repeatedly where the Denarians are concerned.

Then again old doesn't necessarily mean wise.

[X] Plan Poison Tongue

 

[uju32]

Yeah this works. It's weird to think that someone so old would be vulnerable to the "Saturday morning cartoon villain blabs about his evil plan and gets thwarted because of it" trope but it happens repeatedly where the Denarians are concerned.

Then again old doesn't necessarily mean wise.

[X] Plan Poison Tongue

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In my opinion there's probably a couple factors

1) Arrogance
The kind of person who actively hooks up as the junior partner of a Fallen Angel, one of the eldritch terrors of the world setting , kinda has to have arrogance as a foundational trait. Hit the right buttons on that personality type, and they will often show off how much better they are than you.

And its not just Denarians.
Remember Nfested!Maeve monologuing after capturing Dresden in Cold Days? Or Lord Raith doing the same thing?
Or Shagnasty?


2) Recruitment
The Bad Guys are always in the market for high-quality recruits and talking to them. Nicodemus spends significant effort trying to recruit Harry, and we see Lartessa put some effort into trying to talk him into changing his mind with sexual wiles.

Even the Walkers spend a lot of time monologuing; He Who Walks Behind monologued at Harry both when he was 16, and when he met him again in Blood Rites. He Who Walks Before tried to recruit Harry after he thought he'd defeated him in Cold Days, and He Who Walks Behind had a fairly long convo with Harry in Battle Grounds while possessing Justine.

They all talk, if given the opportunity.


3)Loneliness
The Bad Guy life doesnt really promote much of a community of peers. You have minions and if you're junior, bosses.
Not really many peers you can talk to, and not worry about it being used against you.

The Good Guys at least are known dangers who can only kill you, and its a lot safer to talk to them, and then kill them when you're done.



Remember, its not usually enough to win for these guys.
Its also as important to crush and humiliate their enemy, and have said enemy know it.

Even usually competent bad guys like Nicodemus will backslide under stress, like when he went after Michael's family in Skin Game, captured Charity, and then waited to make an entire show of killing her instead of simply having someone cap her as soon as they caught her.

I think the only bad guys we didnt see monologue in canon were Cowl and Peabody.
And the Outsider cultsis in Thomas' short story and Molly's short story.
Everyone else has given a long speech of gloating or personal justification.

 

[fictionfan]

Yeah this works. It's weird to think that someone so old would be vulnerable to the "Saturday morning cartoon villain blabs about his evil plan and gets thwarted because of it" trope but it happens repeatedly where the Denarians are concerned.

Then again old doesn't necessarily mean wise.

[X] Plan Poison Tongue

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If the fallen were not slaves to their vices they would still be angels. Presumably.

 

[TheGrape]

[X] Plan Poison Tongue

Namshiel: You sly dog, you got me monologuing!
Molly: Good ol' monologuing, gets 'em every time.

 

[Ivar]

[X] Stab the phone and keep going until you can stab the one on the other end as well

 

[Yog]

If a competent enemy is talking, they are likely stalling. Or working some magic (and also stalling). Point is, don't assume that them talking is a weakness to be exploited.

 

[BoredMan]

If a competent enemy is talking, they are likely stalling. Or working some magic (and also stalling). Point is, don't assume that them talking is a weakness to be exploited.

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Does it matter? Molly can walk and talk so she doesn't loose anytime in letting him monologue. This is a thing that happens in canon. Denarians talk when they don't need to and end up revealing something of use to their enemy.

Your statement is vague and doesn't address either of those points.

Edit: It's a weakness that's been shown repeatedly in the books. Nobody has to assume anything here just be familiar with the material.

 

[Ivar]

My reason for voting this way is because we're not in books. And DragonParadox isn't Butcher. And we're not in magical noir.

 

[BoredMan]

My reason for voting this way is because we're not in books. And DragonParadox isn't Butcher. And we're not in magical noir.

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The setting is Dresden Files. The book series. If a change is noticed pertaining to X then you should consider what else may be different regarding X but otherwise your supposed to assume the books are indeed canon and the characters within them.

Otherwise it's an entirely original story with a few coats of paint applied to fool readers.

 

[firefrog600]

The setting is Dresden Files. The book series. If a change is noticed pertaining to X then you should consider what else may be different regarding X but otherwise your supposed to assume the books are indeed canon and the characters within them.

Otherwise it's an entirely original story with a few coats of paint applied to fool readers.

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In fairness there are plenty of things abo it canon dp doesn't like and so are presumably changed also stuff he just didn't know about like certain wog. But like the free will debacle he clearly didn't like and changed on some level.

 

[BoredMan]

In fairness there are plenty of things abo it canon dp doesn't like and so are presumably changed also stuff he just didn't know about like certain wog. But like the free will debacle he clearly didn't like and changed on some level.

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That has nothing to do with the current vote though. As I said if you notice something is different then you can start considering such things like with Peabody when we learned someone else was looking through his eyes.


You can't just go "this isn't canon" whenever it's convenient. The past books before chapter one are all canon to the Quest with everything that implies.

 

[Ivar]

The setting is Dresden Files. The book series. If a change is noticed pertaining to X then you should consider what else may be different regarding X but otherwise your supposed to assume the books are indeed canon and the characters within them.

Otherwise it's an entirely original story with a few coats of paint applied to fool readers.

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I just don't think that what worked last time in a different circumstance when the enemy was against Dresden will work now when they are against Molly.

 

[BoredMan]

I just don't think that what worked last time in a different circumstance when the enemy was against Dresden will work now when they are against Molly.

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Why? The enemy is the exact same person with all of the same character traits and tendencies. We've no reason to believe otherwise, especially given how old he is.

Molly is much better at word play and mind games than Dresden is as well.

 

[firefrog600]

That has nothing to do with the current vote though. As I said if you notice something is different then you can start considering such things like with Peabody when we learned someone else was looking through his eyes.


You can't just go "this isn't canon" whenever it's convenient. The past books before chapter one are all canon to the Quest with everything that implies.

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I mean dp has changed things that make past books make no sense like changing Maeve's backstory kinda makes the whole backstory of there being former queens make no sense. Also all the comments in free will and souls. Oh and afterlives because their a far more known quantity here whereas in canon bob says their not.

 

[BoredMan]

I mean dp has changed things that make past books make no sense like changing Maeve's backstory kinda makes the whole backstory of there being former queens make no sense. Also all the comments in free will and souls. Oh and afterlives because their a far more known quantity here whereas in canon bob says their not.

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Are you really trying to argue that we shouldn't use the books of which the characters, setting, and plot beats, are all derived from to draw information or that all of it is automatically unreliable?

We've literally been using them for this purpose for the entirety of the Quest.

 

[Ivar]

Why? The enemy is the exact same person with all of the same character traits and tendencies. We've no reason to believe otherwise, especially given how old he is.

Molly is much better at word play and mind games than Dresden is as well.

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Precisely because Molly is not Dresden and is better. The enemy knows that Molly is more dangerous and more likely to be in limbo. Therefore, there is a chance that they will not have such a long dialogue just like that.

 

[uju32]

If the fallen were not slaves to their vices they would still be angels. Presumably.

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^^^
THIS.

Thats very nice phrasing, by the way.
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If a competent enemy is talking, they are likely stalling. Or working some magic (and also stalling). Point is, don't assume that them talking is a weakness to be exploited.

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1) That is not true.
The lesser Walker we killed talked because he could.
So did Arianna Ortega.


2)I dont see how this is relevant anyway.

Molly does not have to stop chasing Namshiel to let them talk; its a cellphone, as I've repeatedly observed.
If it takes effort to talk on the phone, then Namshiel on the other end wont be casting magic or stealing shit while doing so.
You cant decide that talking is a free action for the enemy but not for Molly.

Molly also has her surprise negator running, so its not like you can blindside her with Mind or Correspondence magic or somesuch.

My reason for voting this way is because we're not in books. And DragonParadox isn't Butcher. And we're not in magical noir.

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This is still the Dresden Files.
The essential characterization of the canon enemies hasnt changed, and their IC decisionmaking flows from their characterization.


In this case, we are literally talking about a faction of entities whose defining sin is their arrogance, and who choose accomplices based on this. Every Fallen Angel here first Fell from Heaven after having the hubris/arrogance to challenge the White God, then got exiled from Hell and bound into Coins for challenging/threatening Lucifer.

These are defining character traits, like Harry's weakness for damsels in distress, that havent changed, and from which flow many of the conflicts in the setting. If they'd changed, they wouldnt be Fallen.


And frankly, the fact that Lucian/Namshiel actually started talking and telling everyone he was looking, instead of quietly watching and gathering information, tells us that his characterization HASNT changed.
Still the same guy who spent time ranting at a captive Dresden in the middle of a fight instead of killing him.

 

[Yog]

1) That is not true.
The lesser Walker we killed talked because he could.
So did Arianna Ortega.

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Lesser Walker's goal was suicide by exalt in glorious combat. They were also a raksha of ancient days, and thus narrative driven. Angels are not.

2)I dont see how this is relevant anyway.

Molly does not have to stop chasing Namshiel to let them talk; its a cellphone, as I've repeatedly observed.
If it takes effort to talk on the phone, then Namshiel on the other end wont be casting magic or stealing shit while doing so.
You cant decide that talking is a free action for the enemy but not for Molly.

Molly also has her surprise negator running, so its not like you can blindside her with Mind or Correspondence magic or somesuch.

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A cellphone that can and almost certainly is tracked

 

[BoredMan]

Precisely because Molly is not Dresden and is better. The enemy knows that Molly is more dangerous and more likely to be in limbo. Therefore, there is a chance that they will not have such a long dialogue just like that.

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We already know that he wants to monologue at us. It says so in the chapter. And if he decides to cut off dialogue before giving us anything so what? This is a very defeatist attitude.

Edit:

Angels are not

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Denarian not Angel.

 

[Yog]

Denarian not Angel.

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Neither the human host, nor the Fallen angel should be a creature of stories in the way raksha are

 

[firefrog600]

Are you really trying to argue that we shouldn't use the books of which the characters, setting, and plot beats, are all derived from to draw information or that all of it is automatically unreliable?

We've literally been using them for this purpose for the entirety of the Quest.

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no I'm saying even the statement that stuff thats happened prior in canon is untrue in this quest. I don't really have any overarching point here.

 

[BoredMan]

Neither the human host, nor the Fallen angel should be a creature of stories in the way raksha are

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Do you just not remember how Thorned Namshiel was portrayed in the books???

We've been using the canon portrayal of characters to draw conclusions since the beginning. How do you think DragonParadox writes a character while still keeping them in character? You've been doing the same thing, why are you suddenly saying otherwise?

Edit: TN is explicitly the type of person to monologue about his plans and drop hints.

 

[BronzeTongue]

We have perfect defenses against mind-control, not damage, and without countermagic there was a non-zero chance it would have reached out to snagged the other wizards in our party.
Or Olivia.
Like I said, shit could have gotten pretty spicy there

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It was a shaping effect, which we also have a perfect defense for.

1) Because we actually see Ivy counterspelling in the same scene.

Thats how counterspell rules in M20 work for wizards.
They arent persistent effects; you spend an action to counterspell a single spell. We see Ivy counterspelling Denarians in the same scene in the book, so we know it works the same way in the Dresdenverse.

Namshiel put down a persistent effect that both shut down Harry's shield and prevented him casting two separate spells, and then while that effect was in operation, he spun up a death spell while simultaneously beginning to reassemble the ritual shit that Harry destroyed. That does not appear to be a counterspell.

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The first effect in the quote you posted is Namshiel eating a spell, then he separately casts the field effect. Neither of these actions support the point we're talking about, which is double stuffed curses of this nature.

Namshiel was tutor to both Lartessa and Rosanna, and Harry said that in his opinion Lartessa was White Council material.
That pretty much guarantees that he was too.
Especially since Namshiel was apparently primarily responsible for the big Circle at the Aquarium.

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His students being powerful doesn't equate to Namshiel himself having the same base level of talent. Also worth noting that sorcery is a specific term in the DF; strong talents that are not full wizards. She might have been a wizard tier caster, but her Sorcery tutor implies stuff about Namshiel.

I think you're missing my point here; the issue is not necessarily how strong he is now. He's had ages to cheat his way to considerable power. This is about character traits coming from the formative experience of the host living like Harrowmont before gaining the backing of Namshiel.