Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

I ask again why we we indulging the delusions of grandeur of a mortal. He has nothing and offers nothing, we can do everything better, faster, more securely, and without legal problems he will bring with him.
This didn't start as looking to accomplish something, and deciding on Marcone as a way to do it. It was looking at Marcone, and finding something that him and his people could do that would pivot them into something less objectionable.

Adhoc vote count started by Anaja on Dec 21, 2024 at 10:57 AM, finished with 121 posts and 20 votes.

  • [X] Plan Helping Each Other V2
    -[X] Explain Sanctuary, and what it represents, offer an excursion
    -[X] Cut him in on trade from Sanctuary
    --[X] Medicines and treatments that don't have FDA approval after some trail testing on your part. It's drug trade, but the drugs will actually save lives
    -[X] Offer non-monetary benefits, to himself and his organization as payment for keeping the population safe
    --[X] Fate manipulation for profit and allies (Splendors: Illuminated Connection, Lucky Money or Fortuitous Reprieve), assuming his organization can provide materials for the crafting required
    -[X] IDU empowerment to avoid being the mortal involved in the supernatural with no magical power of his own. Of course, he would not be safe, no one is once they step into the proverbial lion's den, but he would be safer and less likely to become an incidental victim or snack for something that goes bump in the night.
    --[X] Superhuman capabilities (IDU) to the few that can be trusted, so they can be safer when keeping others safe
    [X] Cut him in on technology trade from Sanctuary
    -[X] Medicines and treatments that don't have FDA approval. It's drug trade, but the drugs will actually save lives
    -[X] Explain the Sanctuary to him
    [X] Write in
    - [X] His and his employees' lives
    [X] Plan Just Pay The Man
    -[X] Gold platinum and other precious metals
    --[X] Ask him what his exchange rate on precious metals is and ask him how much he's making in actuality including both gross and actual profit from drugs.
    --[X] offer a flat rate of 1.25 times those real gains with room for negotiations depending on efficiency and efficacy of his men and his services.
    [X] Write in
    -[x] Because I need to deal with you somehow and we can do this the easy way or the hard way. Too be clear destroying your whole organization is the easy way.
    [x] Offer him IDU... don't talk about the costs.
    [X]Null

I still think Helping Each Other goes way too far too fast.
 
I think what people don't understand is that everyone we know under US law should be in prison for life for everything they've done. Michael Carpenter is a serial killer. Charity covers for him and provides him with weapons. Dresden is a murderer in addition to petty crimes as a private investigator, etc. Every member of the White Council is an international terrorist. Karin Murphy is a corrupt cop covering up horrific crimes. I could go on. If we want to be law abiding here... The time to do so was never. You can hide behind the fact that we kill monsters... Unfortunately, according to the law, we have no right to kill them. They have rights and we kill them.

I think we can easily list all the crimes of the good guys. And yes, of course, the bad guys are even worse... But they just don't give a damn about the mundane law.
And?

There's an ethical level to this an a practical/political one. Michael has killed people and probably could be convicted of murder. He isn't already a target for the system. Nature of his interaction with society is different.

criminality here matters in terms of how it

1) impacts their ability to operate

2) informs their relationships to other factions.

Harry is arguably a terrorist. The white council has a different relationship with the government than the mob does.
If they have means of production, then no, it cannot. If they don't, it's possible. Also, what advanced magitech? I would posit that selling working medicine to countries where they cannot be obtained legally is a moral good, mafia or no mafia
If your options are doing nothing or using the mob, but we have more flexibility than that.

If you'd like a sample of what life saving medicine does when cold blooded extortionists are in charge of it examine the difference between insulin prices in the US and any other country on earth capable of manufacturing it.


from before, and I wish you have brought it up earlier. To be clear, I am responding to the argument "Marcone's people performing supernatural protection / policing will be perceived negatively by those they are protecting due to being criminals". This is an argument to be made, yes. But remember, an average supernaturally aware person on the street lives in the constant fear of being eaten. The main function of minor organizations like Order of Cauldron is to help survival of their members. Not prosperity.
I actually made this argument previously, and you're wrong about the implications of the mob affiliation.

Dresden specifically wasn't informed about their membership being killed because they thought his association with the mob was enough reason to suspect he was doing it. This is explicitly canon, not conjecture.

I don't know what you imagine Marcone's people have to their communities, but it isn't a kind one.
We are laundering money (our diamond business) through White Court affiliates. And I bet that there are rumors about how exactly we are keeping our pet ghouls fed
And? That isn't a problem for anyone, we even pay taxes. You're the one mixing and matching who knows and cares about what here. Yes the white court is bad. No our association doesn't actually cause anyone problems or appear to be outside the usual order of business.

provable immediate issues like growing a state wide crime ring are entirely different things than these moralizing hypotheticals.


The effort it would take to neutralize Marcone as a problem, while also providing security to the population is greater than the effort of essentially subverting Marcone and smoothing the edges with additional political moves, I feel.
This is just nonsensical.

In terms of our concerns mundane crime is peanuts, it only matters here because it'll start a fist fight with the Feds. Spending our time advancing supernatural law enforcement wouldn't cause any of the problems we've been talking about and do the same work better.

Then we can do mundane stuff later.

I don't understand why you think this will be easier when the government is already targeting him and won't stop. Cannot stop because anyone who knows why looks spectacularly corrupt for trying to anyone who doesn't.

Which means that using him requires interceding in that conflict or letting both parties slug it out.

Where exactly is "Cold War with the FBI" on your difficulty scale?
 
It really boggle the mind why we would bend over backwards for a criminal. We are rich we could have hire our start our on PMC that both legal, and have 100 times, his entire organized crime including the plumbers, and other unknowing people.
 
And?

There's an ethical level to this an a practical/political one. Michael has killed people and probably could be convicted of murder. He isn't already a target for the system. Nature of his interaction with society is different.

criminality here matters in terms of how it

1) impacts their ability to operate

2) informs their relationships to other factions.

Harry is arguably a terrorist. The white council has a different relationship with the government than the mob does.
My argument is basically that I personally don't see how it changes the moral side or the legal side that much. You're right that it's more noticeable, but that's it. Marcone is a little more noticeable than a paladin protected by the Providence of God. Naturally. But I personally don't see that as a strong argument against working with Marcone.

It really boggle the mind why we would bend over backwards for a criminal. We are rich we could have hire our start our on PMC that both legal, and have 100 times, his entire organized crime including the plumbers, and other unknowing people.
The problem with that is that we have to do it from scratch with one policy point. I don't think we have time to organize something that big and obvious.
 
My argument is basically that I personally don't see how it changes the moral side or the legal side that much. You're right that it's more noticeable, but that's it. Marcone is a little more noticeable than a paladin protected by the Providence of God. Naturally. But I personally don't see that as a strong argument against working with Marcone
The problem is the inevitable fallout of the state of the board.

The FBI is already on him, when his criminal empire expands it will cause them to go after him harder. The weirder it gets the more likely Daedalus is to get pulled in, which makes this a nationwide political issue behind closed doors because they're bucking the Library's authority and this is a nearly a perfect case for them.

This means the mob guys would, independently of how anything else goes, be fighting with the Feds on some level. That is a waste of resources, and it will only grow in scope as time goes on.

It's also the perfect lever for anyone who wants to mess with the new system to pull to cause problems. They just need to help law enforcement do what it already wants to do.

Could we handle these problems? Eventually. Is this a good use of our resources? Are the consequences of what we need to do for this to work palatable? No.

I keep calling this an auto immune disorder in the making because it's setting up a situation where different "enforcement" bodies are institutionally and politically obligated to shiv each other. Whoever wins, everyone loses.
 
The problem is the inevitable fallout of the state of the board.

The FBI is already on him, when his criminal empire expands it will cause them to go after him harder. The weirder it gets the more likely Daedalus is to get pulled in, which makes this a nationwide political issue behind closed doors because they're bucking the Library's authority and this is a nearly a perfect case for them.
I think I'll call on Canon this time and say that the Feds won't do anything to Marcone anytime soon. Our involvement with him is unlikely to lead to anything more than Daedalus's intervention... And frankly I think we're headed toward a standoff with them anyway. Maybe even an alliance with the Library. Do we need that now? No. But it will be in the future, most likely.

Yes, you're right that Marcone is not necessary and we could do better. But I think the peaceful option is potentially better for us, especially if we can stabilize and ease the situation. And I think we can.
 
On the subject of Marcone('s people) and IDU - those affected by IDU shouldn't be covered by the Laws. Which should be good for Harry in the event of a confrontation.
I keep calling this an auto immune disorder in the making because it's setting up a situation where different "enforcement" bodies are institutionally and politically obligated to shiv each other. Whoever wins, everyone loses.
Odin at least doesn't seem to care, and he's a smart political operator at least nominally on the side of humanity if general. And has government contracts.
 
Arc 15 interlude 2: Red Star at Morning New
Red Star at Morning

1st of March 2006 A.D.

Fucking suits, the thought passed through Philip's mind with a sort of tired malaise, a spite that had run its course almost to the quick, but which like the zombies and ghouls that his lanky build and pallid complexion had him play couldn't quite give up the ghost. He liked acting not so much for the pay, wasn't much, or the fame, even less of that, but for the chance to tell stories that stuck in people's heads. Seeing some fan zine gush about how they managed to make that big spider puppet in Arachnophobia dance on wires or a messaging board argue good naturally on if the voodoo hex of the scarecrow had finally been broken at the end of Harvest or if it had passed back into the grass with the blood, even one guy who was arguing it had passed on to the lawnmower, that made his day. And what ruined his day one might ask? Suits. Ever since Darby had up and died in some poorly explained accident his estate had been taken over by his 'family' and his family were assholes. Jenny said they were also part of the mob, but Jenny had a real good imagination. Yeah that was the polite way to put it.

"Phil, for fuck's sake Phil open up! Have you been drinking again?" Speaking of Jenny it sounded like she wouldn't take 'no' for an answer her bashing on the trailer door like some kind of tin drum that echoed all the louder in his, yes, hungover skull. But what was he supposed to do with all this money and no work to keep the drink from his hand? Put it in a bank account? Invest it? Hah, as soon expect a fox to go into building hen-houses.

"Phil!"

Somewhat despondently he shuffled to the front of the trailer and opened the door into a cascade of early morning light of the kind the hills of southern California saw way too much of in his opinion. "Yeah, where's the fuckn' fire?" he managed to get out before Jenny, a woman a foot shorter looking like she weighed about half as much as him from pink stripped-hair to sticker studded sneakers, grabbed him by the hand and dragged him across the lot.

"The papers got signed, we're getting new management at last!"

"Oh, are they done using us for a tax write off then?" he asked cynically. Once, in another life, Phill had been a law student and he knew enough about failing businesses to be aware of all the ways they could be kept in a state of limbo, a sort of corporate undeath where they might drain the life out of the state.

"Heya Phil, Jenny," Old Gordon waved at them from the back of the old moving van the others had named 'the Ark' for all the times it had to transport live animals in defiance law and common sense alike. "Off to see the new boss lady?"

"Not like I have a choice," he grumbled

"Phill you're the only reason half the crew stuck around," Jenny insisted with seeming sincerity.

The actor shook his head. "The fact the pay checks didn't bounce is the reason everyone stuck around, me included."

"Liar, liar pants on fire!" a gremlin of a girl popped up from behind some old tires to proclaim. Tina insisted she was nineteen when she joined the crew three years ago, the fact that Darby paid her in cash for the first two of those years indicated that she might not have been entirely honest, but child acting laws being what they were hiring practices were kind of like what Phill imagined the military was like in his dad's day: don't check out the volunteers too closely. "You're here 'cause you love it!"

I'm here because I'll drown at the bottom of a bottle if I don't, Philip thought despondently. And that is when he laid eyes on the new boss, a twenty something college kid with a history in ballet named Olivia.

Ballet was kind of like directing right?

Fuck his life

OOC: A glipse of Red Star Productions, you guys have been paying their salaries, but things have not been going well from the lack of work.
 
Last edited:
Well, on the one hand it's sad... But on the other hand we were a little busy making sure the world would be in place tomorrow. Plus they get paid. So they can wait a little and soon they'll have work. And I was hoping for an update with Marcone today... But okay, let's wait a little longer.
 
I'm here because I'll drown at the bottom of a bottle if I don't, Philip thought despondently. And that is when he laid eyes on the new boss, a twenty something college kid with a history in ballet named Olivia.

Ballet was kind of like directing right?

Fuck his life
Well, hopefully we'll be able to disabuse them of defeatist notions. I have to say I meant Olivia more as a possible start for any movie (because she's a superhumanly good performer), since she doesn't have any leadership dots. But our clone action points are already invested, so I assume our clones are also spending a bit of time in the studio helping.

Overall, I feel bad for Red Star production, and feel that we as players did a dirty by them. Hopefully we'll be able to correct the situation. I dislike seeing inspired people waste away. @DragonParadox , great job showing the essence of exalted, where every little bit of our actions and inaction affects people's lives in a profound way. I became emotionally involved.
Time to start filming Barry Cresden, Sorcerer Detective.
That, and probably this too at some point. :
Just to flesh the idea out some more:
We could do a back and forth thing where the main cast dip into the FCF and flip the script to make it work both ways.

Start out as 100% earth with a Gurvel explorer shapeshifted into a human being someone's roommate at a small college somewhere near but not on the coast. Give the show a name with a double meaning that doesn't immediately bring to mind aliens or magic.

The first few episodes are a basic sitcom with the primary punchline of the Gurvel being a weird roommate. Stuff like cooking strange food/not understanding common ones (hotdogs chopped up on a salad, spreading pudding on toast, ect.), freaking out the first time they see the ocean, a weird fixation with over bandaging minor injuries, and stuff like that.

Eventually there's an accident or something and our main character/characters, a triple would work well for this just to get the regular cast size up, see the Gurvel slip into their natural form.

The real trick would be arranging things so that all of the weird stuff plays well to both audiences. To earthlings it just needs to be funny and offbeat, but to the FCF it'd need a thread of the familiar to hold the explorer living in a strange land feel.

Stuff like making all the weird foods they cook obvious attempts to recreate common dishes from "home" out of things you'd find in an American grocery store. That way the joke plays both ways and explores the differences in food culture.

Make a number of the early jokes like that, then after the reveal touch on them as more explicit things now that the characters are trying to learn about each other.

From that point there are two broad routes to choose from.

First is to slip into a friends style sitcom and keep that beat, but with the flair of the alien. Eventually we do some special episode/arc where the gang goes to help handle a problem in the FCF and the story reverses for a while. At which point we gradually increase the amount of time spent on the other side as both parties get used to things.

Secondly, we go urban fantasy but with a twist. Follow the sitcom routine through the opening phases, up to the point where trouble starts coming from politics or something in the FCF. Maybe a shady past catching up with our Gurvel or something.

Add some violence and intrigue, but keep the courts as the principle supernatural anything and only slowly get into the actual magic as opposed to weird tech/biology. Keep up the getting to know you stuff and the increasing amount of time spent on the other side as we go.

Work out that plot, but start slipping in hints of spookiness on the earth side. Set it up so that the climax of that plot introduces the existence of native supernaturals, which for the purposes of plot our Gurvel didn't really know about.

Then our trio goes full Buffy as the muggles with demonically possessed railguns and an increasing number of cybernetic enhancements work with an extradimensional nuke-dragon poke the local powers.
Probably a little much, and could easily get very cheesy, but it'd also be very funny.
 
Overall, I feel bad for Red Star production, and feel that we as players did a dirty by them. Hopefully we'll be able to correct the situation. I dislike seeing inspired people waste away. @DragonParadox , great job showing the essence of exalted, where every little bit of our actions and inaction affects people's lives in a profound way. I became emotionally involved.

I mean on the one hand they are no longer in the service of an insane vampire with Outsider connections, but they don't know any of that. Here's a thought, do you guys plan to tell them?
 
I mean on the one hand they are no longer in the service of an insane vampire with Outsider connections, but they don't know any of that. Here's a thought, do you guys plan to tell them?
Not immediately, but eventually yes, I think. Magic opens up a lot of options in their profession, and the power of media is not to be underestimated in the setting (see Dracula). So, once we get them out of doom spiral, and make them profitable, yes, I think so. The introduction is probably going to be a main AP.

We might also want to get Rosie higher in her path, so she can help in production. Using dream sequences to test possible scenes should save a lot of production money. And eventually we should be able to make dream recorders.
 
Thinking about it, once they are brought into behind the masquerade and learn the supernatural part of the story, the fate of Red Star productions would make for a great show by itself.

A business that is full of passionate people secretly controlled by an ancient monster, who gets killed only for the business to pass onto a "hero" who doesn't have much time to handle it... There's definitely drama here with subtle horror undertones.
 
Back
Top