Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[Yog]

Why would it go unnoticed? If we start selling a new drug(s) on the market the people who pay attention to such things are going to notice. If the wrong person gets interrogated or some such and Molly's name gets out we then become a person of interest.

Click to shrink...

How would Molly's name get out? Let's assume we or our clones make dropoffs personally (for now let's assume we aren't using the portal as a breachhead). Creating a completely secure dropoff that is impossible to trace by mundane means is trivial. Molly has BMI, so she can be anyone when making dropoffs. Molly has RVD, so she appear in a completely sealed room with only a water pipe to drop off supplies. Molly can teleport into a completely sealed room directly from Sanctuary if the room has an audio player with an appropriate music. If done at least somewhat correctly, there's no way to associate Molly's name with the deliveries of new drugs without having some clues about supernatural.

Like, setting a separate BMI-fueled identity should be trivial for this. Basic security.

 

[Degorium]

Our name? The proposed scenario is if they interrogate people over the new magic (or however they rationalize it) drugs on the black market and get our name.

Click to shrink...

The only one who knows our name is Marcone. Who do you think he's telling who do you think we're going to tell of our connection? Why do you think his lieutenants are willing to rat in any particular way? what is this idea? Everything that we have textually so far seems to just it is nowhere near that easy to get information out of him or his men. Where is this coming from?

 

[BoredMan]

How would Molly's name get out? Let's assume we or our clones make dropoffs personally (for now let's assume we aren't using the portal as a breachhead). Creating a completely secure dropoff that is impossible to trace by mundane means is trivial. Molly has BMI, so she can be anyone when making dropoffs. Molly has RVD, so she appear in a completely sealed room with only a water pipe to drop off supplies. Molly can teleport into a completely sealed room directly from Sanctuary if the room has an audio player with an appropriate music. If done at least somewhat correctly, there's no way to associate Molly's name with the deliveries of new drugs without having some clues about supernatural.

Like, setting a separate BMI-fueled identity should be trivial for this. Basic security.

Click to shrink...

I am willing to assume that we'd be doing it in this way that you just came up with when our chosen method of distribution hasn't been discussed with the thread yet.

...

In that case we would just have to make it clear to Marcone that even his most trusted (he's probably going to tell Gard though) shouldn't be made aware of who his new supplier is and hope that he keeps it to himself even if they start asking questions.

The only one who knows our name is Marcone. Who do you think he's telling who do you think we're going to tell of our connection? Why do you think his lieutenants are willing to rat in any particular way? what is this idea? Everything that we have textually so far seems to just it is nowhere near that easy to get information out of him or his men. Where is this coming from?

Click to shrink...

I'll answer these in order.

I'm just going to assume that Gard will be made aware by Marcone. Who he trust with the name of his new supplier is not known to us. Whomever we decide to, probably no one to be worried about. I don't know because I'm not writing them. Don't understand this question. A certain amount of evidence is required to incarcerate someone. It's also possible if you have hands in the authorities to keep yourself out prison even if evidence is obtained. However getting a name in this proposed case, gives people a lead which if investigated may cause trouble for us. If Molly has clones carrying out task doesn't that mean we can be found to be in multiple places at once?

Edit: I'm talking about monthly clone actions.

 

[Yog]

On the subject of IDU. Marcone is unlikely to take it, but it makes perfect sense for his people. If we are going to ask them to risk their lives against supernatural predators, it's only fair we arm them for such encounters.

 

[Yog]

I am willing to assume that we'd be doing it in this way that you just came up with when our chosen method of distribution hasn't been discussed with the thread yet.

...

In that case we would just have to make it clear to Marcone that even his most trusted (he's probably going to tell Gard though) shouldn't be made aware of who his new supplier is and hope that he keeps it to himself even if they start asking questions.

Click to shrink...

I did come up with it just now, yes, but I have previously assumed we'll be doing at least some basic security for any illicit transactions.

If Molly has clones carrying out task doesn't that mean we can be found to be in multiple places at once?

Click to shrink...

Yes. Which, in mundane terms, is an alibi. If Molly Carpenter, daughter of Michael and Charity Carpenters is visibly and noticeably at school, with video recordings and multiple witnesses, at the same time Molly Carpenter is delivering illegal cure for cancer to a Marcone owned drug warehouse, then clearly the person delivering wonder drugs isn't her, as any competent and well paid lawyer will tell you. Speaking of, we should probably retain a magically aware lawyer Earthside. We should ask Mab what law firm she retains. Or Lydia maybe.

 

[BoredMan]

I did come up with it just now, yes, but I have previously assumed we'll be doing at least some basic security for any illicit transactions.

Click to shrink...

..you should keep in mind that different people have different ideas of what "basic" is. If we use this method we should just have to worry about who Marcone tells.

Yes. Which, in mundane terms, is an alibi. If Molly Carpenter, daughter of Michael and Charity Carpenters is visibly and noticeably at school, with video recordings and multiple witnesses, at the same time Molly Carpenter is delivering illegal cure for cancer to a Marcone owned drug warehouse, then clearly the person delivering wonder drugs isn't her, as any competent and well paid lawyer will tell you. Speaking of, we should probably retain a magically aware lawyer Earthside. We should ask Mab what law firm she retains. Or Lydia maybe.

Click to shrink...

Lol. It's also hella suspicious. Why are there multiple people that look like this woman walking around pretending to be her. It's something the authorities would be interested in, court proceedings aside.

 

[Yog]

Lol. It's also hella suspicious. Why are there multiple people that look like this woman walking around pretending to be her. It's something the authorities would be interested in, court proceedings aside

Click to shrink...

Yes, at which point they rapidly go down the supernatural awareness rabbit hole. At which point their concerns most likely shift.

 

[BoredMan]

Yes, at which point they rapidly go down the supernatural awareness rabbit hole. At which point their concerns most likely shift.

Click to shrink...

Dresden files humans, Masquerade. They may instead come to a conclusion regarding Molly that incentivises them to investigate her further. Since multiple people look like and are pretending to be her.

 

[Degorium]

Yes, at which point they rapidly go down the supernatural awareness rabbit hole. At which point their concerns most likely shift.

Click to shrink...

Dresden files humans, Masquerade. They may instead come to a conclusion regarding Molly that incentives them to investigate her further. Since multiple people look like and are pretending to be her.

Click to shrink...

Or they come to the way easier to come to conclusion of this is not Molly Carpenter delivering the drugs but a woman who gave a pseudonym for a girl who looked kind of like her because Molly is a to be honest not hard person to imitate she's a young Caucasian woman with blonde hair and blue eyes with a couple of piercings.

All of it would just predicated on someone knowing the name in the first place which no one other than Marcone has any reason to know. He isn't responsible to his lieutenants like a lord is to his vassals they listen to him or they get the cement shoes. They move the product he gives them or they get the cement shoes. As they are literally completely replaceable and their own lieutenants would kill possibly literally to be in their position as head of their particular cohort.

 

[BoredMan]

Or they come to the way easier to come to conclusion of this is not Molly Carpenter delivering the drugs but a woman who gave a pseudonym for a girl who looked kind of like her because Molly is a to be honest not hard person to imitate she's a young Caucasian woman with blonde hair and blue eyes with a couple of piercings.

All of it would just predicated on someone knowing the name in the first place which no one other than Marcone has any reason to know. He isn't responsible to his lieutenants like a lord is to his vassals they listen to him or they get the cement shoes. They move the product he gives them or they get the cement shoes. As they are literally completely replaceable and their own lieutenants would kill possibly literally to be in their position as head of their particular cohort.

Click to shrink...

I specified this in an edit a few minutes ago but I'm talking about monthly clone actions.

I wasn't aware that you had detailed information on how Marcone associates and conducts himself with his lieutenants. I don't think Marcone would see his most trusted as completely replaceable in the way your describing. Also given what Gard's job is and what she should know of us already I think we can mark her off as someone who'd know with reasonable certainty.

 

[Degorium]

I wasn't aware that you had detailed information on how Marcone associates and conducts himself with his lieutenants. I don't think Marcone would see his most trusted as completely replaceable in the way your describing. Some of them are aware of the supernatural. Also given what Gard's job is and what she should know of us already I think we can mark her off as someone who'd know with reasonable certainty.

Click to shrink...

I'm saying you can't have it both ways in your argument you can't have them nark and give up information at the first sign of trouble and have them be loyal enough to be Irreplaceable you can be one or you can be the other you can't have them both. All of which still seems to suggest that the crime boss has to explain himself to his subordinates.

This is just like the information thing for bronze all mundane source of information seem to suggest Molly Carpenter cannot be this person. So obviously they're going to seek out Supernatural help when the only people that would even be looking deny Magic exists and don't like the people that would help them in that situation.

Will anyone who could make a conclusion that Molly is in bed with this as long as she takes no precautions is seen and does nothing to prevent any level of exposure? yeah no shit.

Good thing that's not what anyone is suggesting then.

 

[BoredMan]

I'm saying you can't have it both ways in your argument you can't have them nark and give up information at the first sign of trouble and have them be loyal enough to be Irreplaceable you can be one or you can be the other you can't have them both. All of which still seems to suggest that the crime boss has to explain himself to his subordinates.

This is just like the information thing for bronze all mundane source of information seem to suggest Molly Carpenter cannot be this person. So obviously they're going to seek out Supernatural help when the only people that would even be looking deny Magic exists and don't like the people that would help them in that situation.

Will anyone who could make a conclusion that Molly is in bed with this as long as she takes no precautions is seen and does nothing to prevent any level of exposure yeah no duh.

Click to shrink...

I didn't say they'd nark at the first sign of trouble though.

Sure, if your not aware of the moonlit world you wouldn't think they were all actually Molly even if they look like her and are pretending to be her. That's besides the point though.

What.

 

[Yog]

Dresden files humans, Masquerade. They may instead come to a conclusion regarding Molly that incentivises them to investigate her further. Since multiple people look like and are pretending to be her.

Click to shrink...

And if they investigate they either hit a dead end or breach the masquerade.

 

[Degorium]

It's not impossible that one of his men could be interrogated into spilling a name. That isn't enough proof to have anyone thrown in jail either but it's a lead that gets us involved in things we don't want to be.

Click to shrink...

That depends solely on what we are giving him and how many people under Marcone are aware that we are the supplier.

Click to shrink...

The proposed scenario is if they interrogate people over the new magic (or however they rationalize it) drugs on the black market and get our name.

Click to shrink...

If we start selling a new drug(s) on the market the people who pay attention to such things are going to notice. If the wrong person gets interrogated or some such and Molly's name gets out we then become a person of interest.

Click to shrink...

I didn't say they'd nark at the first sign of trouble though.

Sure, if your not aware of the moonlit world you wouldn't think they were all actually Molly even if they look like her and are pretending to be her. That's besides the point though.

What.

Click to shrink...

So did you mean Advanced interrogation or did you mean the first thing police do when they bring you in for questioning interrogation otherwise known as the first sign of trouble.

Which yet again still have to say why would he tell them anything they are his subordinates he is the boss he is the one who makes the connections to get all of the drugs he is the one who runs the organization he is the one who decides who gets cement shoes this is not a monarchy or a equal relationship at all.

There is no reason for his Lieutenants to know our name and even if they do there's no reason for them to mention our name because they're going to be interrogated about Marcone. I pity the FBI agent that tries to take in Gard I really do because they're going to die and there's really nothing that can be done about that because they picked a fight with a valkyrie but at least they get to go to the Mead Hall. Then again she is a spirit literally so she might just turn a corner and disappear which still pity that secret agent that has to explain -- "Yeah the person I was chasing turned a corner and vanished."

 

[BoredMan]

And if they investigate they either hit a dead end or breach the masquerade.

Click to shrink...

That depends on what conclusions they come to seeing as we've seen from canon that people run into the supernatural and come to entirely different non supernatural related conclusions. I don't think that this scenario would be the first time the interested party that isn't aware of such things ran into something of that nature.

So did you mean Advanced interrogation or did you mean the first thing police do when they bring you in for questioning interrogation otherwise known as the first sign of trouble.

Click to shrink...

Dude you need to chill. I'm aware of what I've recently posted, we've been talking in a small time frame.

Which yet again still have to say why would he tell them anything they are his subordinates he is the boss he is the one who makes the connections to get all of the drugs he is the one who runs the organization he is the one who decides who gets cement shoes this is not a monarchy or a equal relationship at all.

There is no reason for his Lieutenants to know our name and even if they do there's no reason for them to mention our name because they're going to be interrogated about Marcone. I pity the FBI agent that tries to take in Gard I really do because they're going to die and there's really nothing that can be done about that because they picked a fight with a valkyrie but at least they get to go to the Mead Hall. Then again she is a spirit literally so she might just turn a corner and disappear which still pity that secret agent that has to explain -- "Yeah the person I was chasing turned a corner and vanished."

Click to shrink...

We don't know how Marcone treats those he trust the most. Given that he tries not to kill and stays away from kids and such my assumption is that he's picky about those in that bracket. Some of those people at the top may be his genuine friends, and some may be aware of the supernatural. In the proposed scenario they're being interrogated over the new magic drugs to hit the market that nobody can replicate. Maybe that would be a big enough deal that one of em gets sequestered away to a blacksite.

 

[Iron Roby]

[X] Plan Helping Each Other V2

For those voting "His and his employees' lives", do you really think just slaughtering an organization of mundane criminals for daring to ask us aid is really on the cards?

What, are we Punisher now? Do you think that would somehow improve our reputation or make the legitimate authorities happy with us?

At least something like threatening to use all our power, to make sure that the mundane authorities find enough evidence and witnesses against him to convict, would have been a plausibly reasonable and in character threat.

 

[Degorium]

In the proposed scenario they're being interrogated over the new magic drugs to hit the market that nobody can replicate. Maybe that would be a big enough deal that one of em gets sequestered away to a blacksite.

Click to shrink...

Then we hit the mundane organization scenario again of Margaret Katherine Amanda Carpenter does not possess the infrastructure, Logistics or equipment necessary to produce this substance considering the complete untrustability of the information gained through torture they're going to assume it was a pseudonym given to this lieutenant and under most circumstances they would be right.

This is before the idea that they're going to be looking for that rather than information on Marcone the person they've been trying to arrest for the better part of a decade now especially when they're breaking out the Advanced interrogation techniques.

 

[Ivar]

[X] Cut him in on technology trade from Sanctuary
-[X] Medicines and treatments that don't have FDA approval. It's drug trade, but the drugs will actually save lives
-[X] Explain the Sanctuary to him

[X] Plan Helping Each Other V2
I completely agree with Yog that we should already be an enemy of the US if the US knew who we supported. And frankly, it is not surprising considering that conventional governments are not ready to give up the monopoly on violence... Unfortunately for them, they will soon have to realize that they never had it.

In any case, we are something much worse. We are a dictator of a nation the size of China who actively interferes in the internal affairs of the United States, works with an illegal gang, and kills US citizens at the whim of our moral left heel. We are already a mega-criminal that makes Marcone look like a petty bread thief from a national security perspective.

 

[BoredMan]

Then we hit the mundane organization scenario again of Margaret Katherine Amanda Carpenter does not possess the infrastructure, Logistics or equipment necessary to produce this substance considering the complete untrustability of the information gained through torture they're going to assume it was a pseudonym given to this lieutenant and under most circumstances they would be right.

This is before the idea that they're going to be looking for that rather than information on Marcone the person they've been trying to arrest for the better part of a decade now especially when they're breaking out the Advanced interrogation techniques.

Click to shrink...

We've been talking about that scenario the entire time. They don't need to think she does the point is they may find a lead to us, in this case a name. If Molly Carpenter is assumed to be a pseudonym or something I don't see why that wouldn't make them interested and look into us.

Those are the same thing. Depending on the magic drugs that can't be replicated and are better than what else is on the market, they may prioritize that over Marcone.

We are already a mega-criminal that makes Marcone look like a petty bread thief from a national security perspective

Click to shrink...

Due to the Masquerade only certain sections of the gov are aware of some of those details. I don't think the Library of Congress sees us as a mega criminal but Daedalus might.

 

[Ivar]

Due to the Masquerade only certain sections of the gov are aware of some of those details. I don't think the Library of Congress sees us as a mega criminal but Daedalus might.

Click to shrink...

And I'm not talking about what they know. But about what actually exists. And the situation is exactly like that and any investigation will eventually lead there if it is not drowned. Supporting Marcone only slightly raises our profile. And does nothing to raise the level of crimes that Molly actually committed on US soil.

 

[Iron Roby]

Also changing my vote. I decided that I don't want to give Marcone's people IDU.

If he goes Denarian let's just kill him.

Click to shrink...

That's exactly the reason I only voted for the plan with IDU. If you already have meta knowledge, that someone you are investing in will get and accept a devil's bargain, then you either:
1) cut your losses and don't invest in him,
2) or you give him a more tempting devil's bargain first.

There is no benefit to half-assing it. Plus, I really want to defeat Nick and Andy in their own game.

 

[Degorium]

If Molly Carpenter is assumed to be a pseudonym or something I don't see why that wouldn't make them interested and look into us.

Click to shrink...

As it's an obvious red herring. When you're given the name of a teenage girl for multiple tons of drugs and the girl is a devout Catholic with devout Catholic parents who has no absences from school but a week in the last 7 months. Who seemingly had past issues with drugs but has moved on from them after two of her friends got either put in a psych ward or taken out of school.

The only thing you can sensibly do is say ah either this is another Margaret Carpenter which not a explicitly rare Name by any stretch the imagination I'm not going to do a Google search but I'm sure I could probably find a couple thousand in Chicago alone never mind the state of Illinois or more likely he the Lieutenant has been lied to or he lied to us to make us stop torturing him.

There's no real evidence to suggest that we are capable of anything like producing or moving tens of tons of drugs. We bought our car at a police auction. We haven't rented any trucks we haven't bought any trucks there's no movement out of our workspace to suggest that we need trucks or equipment to produce the diamonds we do nothing. We certainly haven't intake hundreds of tons of materials to turn into tens of tons of drugs either. We also seemingly don't have the time either we're in school 8 hours a day and our clone sleeps at home. Nevermind the irreproducibility of any of the substances.

By all metrics anyone interacting with a reality that does not include magic would have to conclude that this is nothing. At best it's a lie - - at worst it's a red herring to make us investigate a teenage girl while the actual culprit gets away because suddenly they know we're investigating a teenage girl that they planted the pseudonym on.

Edit: Okay I lied about not doing a Google search there are as of 2024. 56 in Illinois alone 2046 in the US as a whole.

 

[Ivar]

I think what people don't understand is that everyone we know under US law should be in prison for life for everything they've done. Michael Carpenter is a serial killer. Charity covers for him and provides him with weapons. Dresden is a murderer in addition to petty crimes as a private investigator, etc. Every member of the White Council is an international terrorist. Karin Murphy is a corrupt cop covering up horrific crimes. I could go on. If we want to be law abiding here... The time to do so was never. You can hide behind the fact that we kill monsters... Unfortunately, according to the law, we have no right to kill them. They have rights and we kill them.

I think we can easily list all the crimes of the good guys. And yes, of course, the bad guys are even worse... But they just don't give a damn about the mundane law.

 

[Yog]

[X] Plan Helping Each Other V2

I'm going to consolidate my vote to a more involved proposal. I don't like giving Marcone IDU, but his people are a different deal, if they are going to fight

Edit: no, there is a great reason to IDU Marcone. It disqualifies him for exaltation. And that is a safety measure I rather want in place.

Edit2: Because yes, I can absolutely see Odin giving Marcone the shard if he gets it and can arrange it. If only to counter balance Molly

 

[BoredMan]

That's exactly the reason I only voted for the plan with IDU. If you already have meta knowledge, that someone you are investing in will get and accept a devil's bargain, then you either:
1) cut your losses and don't invest in him,
2) or you give him a more tempting devil's bargain yourself first.

There is no reason to half-ass it. Plus, I really want to defeat Nick and Andy in their own game.

Click to shrink...

My reason was that I don't really want to give his people IDU upon reflection.

I'm definitely flip floppy on this..

[X] Plan Helping Each Other V2

As it's an obvious red herring. When you're given the name of a teenage girl for multiple tons of drugs and the girl is a devout Catholic with devout Catholic parents who has no absences from school but a week in the last 7 months. Who seemingly had past issues with drugs but has moved on from them after two of her friends got either put in a psych ward or taken out of school.

The only thing you can sensibly do is say ah either this is another Margaret Carpenter which not a explicitly rare Name by any stretch the imagination I'm not going to do a Google search but I'm sure I could probably find a couple thousand in Chicago alone never mind the state of Illinois or more likely he the Lieutenant has been lied to or he lied to us to make us stop torturing him.

There's no real evidence to suggest that we are capable of anything like producing or moving tens of tons of drugs. We bought our car at a police auction. We haven't rented any trucks we haven't bought any trucks there's no movement out of our workspace to suggest that we need trucks or equipment to produce the diamonds we do nothing. We certainly haven't intake hundreds of tons of materials to turn into tens of tons of drugs either. We also seemingly don't have the time either we're in school 8 hours a day and our clone sleeps at home. Nevermind the irreproducibility of any of the substances.

By all metrics anyone interacting with a reality that does not include magic would have to conclude that this is nothing. At best it's a lie - - at worst it's a red herring to make us investigate a teenage girl while the actual culprit gets away because suddenly they know we're investigating a teenage girl that they planted the pseudonym on.

Click to shrink...

Molly is an adult, and we rented vans in Boston. They don't have to think that a single person somehow cooks several tons of drugs to investigate a lead but this sounds about right yeah.