Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[uju32]

Lesser Walker's goal was suicide by exalt in glorious combat. They were also a raksha of ancient days, and thus narrative driven. Angels are not.

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Lesser Walker's goal was a fight. Death was acceptable, but it wasnt the goal.
Narrative has nothing to do with this that I can see.

Denarians dont change. I dont know if they even have the capacity to change.
The Fallen have been spreading death and misery for two thousand years instead of kicking back on a Carribean beach with a pina colada. Thats a long time to hold a grudge.

Lucian has been Namshiel's partner for two millenia; he's human, and so retains the capacity for change, but there is no indication he has changed either.

A cellphone that can and almost certainly is tracked

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Tracking is not a free action.

Furthermore, tracking goes both ways, and Namshiel doesnt know enough about Molly's current abilities not to assume that Molly can track HIM by the phone. Which we can with a Crown question. If tracking was a concern, he wouldnt have drawn our attention to the phone which we, and the unknown wizards with us, can use to track him.



Besides, why would it even bother?
Namshiel already knows where we are because it knows where its thralls were attacked, and it has a good estimate of how much time from that location to the chamber of divination tools based on average human speed.

So again, why would it bother?

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The first effect in the quote you posted is Namshiel eating a spell, then he separately casts the field effect. Neither of these actions support the point we're talking about, which is double stuffed curses of this nature.

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The first effect was Namshiel eating a spell.
The SECOND effect was Namshiel shorting out Dresden's shield and negating his attempts to cast offensive magic.

I lifted my left hand just as the Denarian crouched and vomited out a spinning cloud of black threads that came whirling through the air in dozens of tiny, spiraling arcs. I brought up my shield, but none of the threads actually came down to touch me-they landed all around me instead, in a nearly perfect circle.
And an instant later my shield stuttered and shorted out. I still had the energy for it-I hadn't been cut off. But somehow the Denarian's weird spell had disrupted the magic as it left my body. I tried to throw another bolt of force at him, and got to feel supremely silly, waving my staff around to absolutely zero effect.

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Thats a persistent effect. And does not follow any of the rules of counterspelling that we know.
So its not a counterspell.

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His students being powerful doesn't equate to Namshiel himself having the same base level of talent. Also worth noting that sorcery is a specific term in the DF; strong talents that are not full wizards. She might have been a wizard tier caster, but her Sorcery tutor implies stuff about Namshiel.

I think you're missing my point here; the issue is not necessarily how strong he is now. He's had ages to cheat his way to considerable power. This is about character traits coming from the formative experience of the host living like Harrowmont before gaining the backing of Namshiel.

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You cannot teach what you yourself cannot do, at least with magic.
And Namshiel's general magical performance was pretty solidly better than Harry Dresden's, who was himself not a trivial Council wizard at this time.

=====
The person speaking was Nicodemus, who is notably NOT a wizard. His use of technical terms is suspect at best.

Furthermore, sorcerer is apparently not a precise term. Harry called the Fomor spellcasters sorcerers in Battle Grounds.
He's called weaker human spellcasters sorcerers in Dead Beat. He's called Lea an elder Fae sorceress, and both Bianca and Arianna vampire sorceresses. He called both Sells and Kravos sorcerers, IIRC, in the first three books.

It does not appear to be a matter of power, or skill, or knowledge, as there's people on that list that have all three.
The one consistent characteristic is that sorcerers are not White Council members.

=====
To my knowledge, there is no evidence that Thorned Namshiel's first host was ever a minor talent like Harrowmont in canon, and the QM has not presented any evidence in this quest so far to lead us to conclude he was one here.

His ranting, that we see onscreen in canon and which I've quoted, was specifically focused on Harry's possession of soulfire.
Not on Harry being able to cast magic.

He doesnt manifest any particular grudges against the White Council in canon; he doesnt hunt wizards like naagloshii do, nor does he particularly offer aid to the enemies of wizards.
There is no BOLO in the Council warning wizards to watch out for a Denarian wizardkiller.

 

[firefrog600]

Lesser Walker's goal was a fight. Death was acceptable, but it wasnt the goal.
Narrative has nothing to do with this that I can see.

Denarians dont change. I dont know if they even have the capacity to change.
The Fallen have been spreading death and misery for two thousand years instead of kicking back on a Carribean beach with a pina colada. Thats a long time to hold a grudge.

Lucian has been Namshiel's partner for two millenia; he's human, and so retains the capacity for change, but there is no indication he has changed either.

Tracking is not a free action.

Furthermore, tracking goes both ways, and Namshiel doesnt know enough about Molly's current abilities not to assume that Molly can track HIM by the phone. Which we can with a Crown question. If tracking was a concern, he wouldnt have drawn our attention to the phone which we, and the unknown wizards with us, can use to track him.



Besides, why would it even bother?
Namshiel already knows where we are because it knows where its thralls were attacked, and it has a good estimate of how much time from that location to the chamber of divination tools based on average human speed.

So again, why would it bother?

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The first effect was Namshiel eating a spell.
The SECOND effect was Namshiel shorting out Dresden's shield and negating his attempts to cast offensive magic.

Thats a persistent effect. And does not follow any of the rules of counterspelling that we know.
So its not a counterspell.

=====

You cannot teach what you yourself cannot do, at least with magic.
And Namshiel's general magical performance was pretty solidly better than Harry Dresden's, who was himself not a trivial Council wizard at this time.

=====
The person speaking was Nicodemus, who is notably NOT a wizard. His use of technical terms is suspect at best.

Furthermore, sorcerer is apparently not a precise term. Harry called the Fomor spellcasters sorcerers in Battle Grounds.
He's called weaker human spellcasters sorcerers in Dead Beat. He's called Lea an elder Fae sorceress, and both Bianca and Arianna vampire sorceresses. He called both Sells and Kravos sorcerers, IIRC, in the first three books.

It does not appear to be a matter of power, or skill, or knowledge, as there's people on that list that have all three.
The one consistent characteristic is that sorcerers are not White Council members.

=====
To my knowledge, there is no evidence that Thorned Namshiel's first host was ever a minor talent like Harrowmont in canon, and the QM has not presented any evidence in this quest so far to lead us to conclude he was one here.

His ranting, that we see onscreen in canon and which I've quoted, was specifically focused on Harry's possession of soulfire.
Not on Harry being able to cast magic.

He doesnt manifest any particular grudges against the White Council in canon; he doesnt hunt wizards like naagloshii do, nor does he particularly offer aid to the enemies of wizards.
There is no BOLO in the Council warning wizards to watch out for a Denarian wizardkiller.

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debatable if you can't teach what you can't do seeing as harry can't do shit with glamors but he at least taught molly how to start one. I mean obviously she got better teachers later and these are two very different situations. But its not like teachers can't give context clues though I'm making this comment I know its pedantic and unrelated. Just wanna get that thought out there.

 

[uju32]

debatable if you can't teach what you can't do seeing as harry can't do shit with glamors but he at least taught molly how to start one. I mean obviously she got better teachers later and these are two very different situations. But its not like teachers can't give context clues though I'm making this comment I know its pedantic and unrelated. Just wanna get that thought out there.

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Harry explicitly has to go back and re-learn a bunch of things when he takes Molly as an apprentice in canon, so that he can teach them to her. He makes a repeated point about how he's a better wizard because he had to review and re-examine old lessons and study newer ones in order to teach them to her.

She gets better than him at her areas of specialty later, but everything he taught her, he had to first learn.
I cant imagine its any different for other wizards.

 

[DragonParadox]

Besides, its a cellphone, not a stereo system. Why would Molly have it on speaker for everyone to hear?

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If you do not have the speaker on that might raise questions about what you want to say to the demon without anyone knowing.

 

[BronzeTongue]

Thats a persistent effect. And does not follow any of the rules of counterspelling that we know.
So its not a counterspell.

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I addressed all of this in my prior posts, and it's not really important to the point of contention.

You cannot teach what you yourself cannot do, at least with magic.
And Namshiel's general magical performance was pretty solidly better than Harry Dresden's, who was himself not a trivial Council wizard at this time

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In a narrow set of tasks sorcerers can beat wizards, and a Denarian is no normal practitioner after two millennia of development.

In the DF the division between lesser talents and greater ones isn't as hard as WoD sets in terms of what they're actually doing. Binder and Dresden both summon using the same mechanics, but one can do so much more than the other in many different ways.

We don't know what he was teaching her or how much he's been cheating, but even at a relative minimum estimate he could still teach some critical bedrock skills.

The person speaking was Nicodemus, who is notably NOT a wizard. His use of technical terms is suspect at best.

Furthermore, sorcerer is apparently not a precise term. Harry called the Fomor spellcasters sorcerers in Battle Grounds.
He's called weaker human spellcasters sorcerers in Dead Beat. He's called Lea an elder Fae sorceress, and both Bianca and Arianna vampire sorceresses. He called both Sells and Kravos sorcerers, IIRC, in the first three books.

It does not appear to be a matter of power, or skill, or knowledge, as there's people on that list that have all three.
The one consistent characteristic is that sorcerers are not White Council members.

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I'm not willing to assign that level of ignorance to Nicodemus of all people, and sorcery is a reasonably well defined term even if it has broad applications.

A sorcerer is a practitioner of magic who isn't capable of a wizard's breadth of power. Strength isn't quite a factor; a DF sorcerer can be better than a wizard in their field, they just can't leave it.

Nonhumans frequently fall into this category because they're still doing magic and the full flexibility of wizardry is largely unavailable to non-mortals until you break the power scale. Leansidhe and the fomor minions are both sorcerers because they're casters with a narrower focus than a wizard might have.

 

[uju32]

If you do not have the speaker on that might raise questions about what you want to say to the demon without anyone knowing.

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I dont see how.

Our companions can hear Molly's side of the conversation and what SHE says.
They just cant hear Namshiel unless its on speaker.
And since the concern raised is what Namshiel might say, thats simply dealt with by not putting him on speaker.

Of course its your privilege about how they respond to it.
But I dont really see how its an issue.

 

[DragonParadox]

I addressed all of this in my prior posts, and it's not really important to the point of contention.



In a narrow set of tasks sorcerers can beat wizards, and a Denarian is no normal practitioner after two millennia of development.

In the DF the division between lesser talents and greater ones isn't as hard as WoD sets in terms of what they're actually doing. Binder and Dresden both summon using the same mechanics, but one can do so much more than the other in many different ways.

We don't know what he was teaching her or how much he's been cheating, but even at a relative minimum estimate he could still teach some critical bedrock skills.



I'm not willing to assign that level of ignorance to Nicodemus of all people, and sorcery is a reasonably well defined term even if it has broad applications.

A sorcerer is a practitioner of magic who isn't capable of a wizard's breadth of power. Strength isn't quite a factor; a DF sorcerer can be better than a wizard in their field, they just can't leave it.

Nonhumans frequently fall into this category because they're still doing magic and the full flexibility of wizardry is largely unavailable to non-mortals until you break the power scale. Leansidhe and the fomor minions are both sorcerers because they're casters with a narrower focus than a wizard might have.

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Thorned Namshiel is a wizard scale talent in this quest, Molly can tell that much just by looking at his work. As far as canon goes I have trouble assigning 'burned Arctis Tor' to a mere sorcerer, but you are right Nic did called him that so there is a legitimate case to be made there. It was a choice on my end to make him a wizard.

 

[uju32]

I addressed all of this in my prior posts, and it's not really important to the point of contention.

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No you didnt.
A spell effect that simultaneously shorts out your shields, prevents you from casting magic repeatedly, and physically prevents you from leaving the area you are standing in is not countermagic.

It might not be important to the point in contention, but I think its a detail that is important to establish.
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In a narrow set of tasks sorcerers can beat wizards, and a Denarian is no normal practitioner after two millennia of development.

In the DF the division between lesser talents and greater ones isn't as hard as WoD sets in terms of what they're actually doing. Binder and Dresden both summon using the same mechanics, but one can do so much more than the other in many different ways.

We don't know what he was teaching her or how much he's been cheating, but even at a relative minimum estimate he could still teach some critical bedrock skills.

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To my knowledge, the first assertion isnt true.
Sorcery is primarily about the ability to raise magical mayhem, not about a narrow set of tasks.

The Denarian Quintus Cassius was more than a thousand years old himself(note the name), and still wasnt as good a caster as Dresden was, both when he still held Saluriel's Coin in Death Masks, and when he was just human in Dead Beat. And he was a wizard, with a death curse and everything; in addition to combat evocation, summoning and entropy curses, we see him track Butters with thaumaturgy.



We know some of what he's been teaching her.
In addition to the thunderbolts we see her throwing in Small Favor, she veils better than canon!Molly Carpenter in the fight on Demonreach and has enough mojo to shield against Winter Knight Dresden throwing Winter magic in Skin Game.

She's Serious Magical Business, just like he is.

I'm not willing to assign that level of ignorance to Nicodemus of all people, and sorcery is a reasonably well defined term even if it has broad applications.

A sorcerer is a practitioner of magic who isn't capable of a wizard's breadth of power. Strength isn't quite a factor; a DF sorcerer can be better than a wizard in their field, they just can't leave it.

Nonhumans frequently fall into this category because they're still doing magic and the full flexibility of wizardry is largely unavailable to non-mortals until you break the power scale. Leansidhe and the fomor minions are both sorcerers because they're casters with a narrower focus than a wizard might have.

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There's ignorance, and then there's not using precise terms in casual speech.

That is inaccurate.
Sorcerer is not a technical category, its an industry term for someone who can throw around magical violence, according to Harry. Blood Rites chapter 25 is where Harry explains it to Murphy:

Murphy looked at me for a second and then nodded. "What are we up against?"
"Black Court vampires," I said. "At least two, and maybe more."
"Plus any help they might have," Kincaid said.
"They can flip cars with one hand," I said. "They're fast. Like, Jackie Chan fast. We can't go toe-to-toe with them, so the plan is to hit them in daylight."
"They'll all be asleep," Murphy said.
"Maybe not," Kincaid said. "The old ones don't need to sometimes. Mavra could be functional."
"And what's more," I said, "she's a practitioner. A sorceress at least."
Kincaid inhaled and exhaled slowly through his nose. He finished the bite he was on, and then he said, "Shit," before taking another.
Murphy frowned. "What do you mean, a sorceress at least?"
"Kind of an industry term," I said. "Plenty of people can do a little magic. Small-time stuff. But sometimes the small-timers practice up, or tap into some kind of power source and get enough ability to be dangerous. A sorcerer is someone who can do some serious violence with magic."
"Like the Shadowman," Murphy said. "Or Kravos."
"Yeah."
"Good thing we got a wizard along then," Kincaid said.
Murphy looked at me.
"Wizard means that you can do sorcery if you need to," I said, "but it also means you can do a lot of other things too. A wizard's power isn't limited to blowing things up, or calling up demons. A good wizard can adapt his magic in almost any way he can imagine. Which is the problem."
"What do you mean?" Murphy said.
"Mavra is good at veils," I said, mostly to Kincaid. "Real good. She did some long range mental communications last night, too."
Kincaid stopped eating.
"You're saying that this vampire is a wizard?" Murphy asked.
Kincaid stared at me.
"It's possible," I said. "Maybe even likely. It would go a long way toward explaining how Mavra survived all this time."
"This mission is heading for downtown FUBAR," Kincaid said.
"You want out?" I asked.
He was silent for a minute and then shook his head. "But if Mavra is awake and active, and if she's able to start tossing heavy magic around in closed quarters, we might as well drink some Bacardi-and-strychnine and save ourselves some walking."
"You're afraid of her," Murphy said.
"Damn right," Kincaid said.
She frowned. "Harry, can you shut down her magic? Like you did with Kravos?"
"Depends how strong she is," I said. "But a wizard could handle her. Probably."
Kincaid shook his head. "Magical lockdown. I've seen that work before," he said. "One time I saw it fail. Everybody died."
"Except you?" I asked.
"I was in back, covering our spellslinger when his head exploded. Barely made it out the door." Kincaid pushed a piece of sausage around his plate. "Even if you can shut her down, Mavra's still going to be real tough."

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Its not precise, because its not meant to be.

Its a tactical category for "that fucker can throw down with magic"; it doesnt say if they can do anything else because its generally impossible to make that kind of assessment easily. See Harry being unable to tell if Mavra is a wizard despite having seen her use magic previously during Grave Peril.

People dont usually do constructive work with magic on the battlefield, after all.


Namshiel is believed to have been the dude that used Hellfire at Arctis Tor in Proven Guilty.
And to have been the wizard who both cooked up the big Circle that cut off the Archive from magic at the Shedd Aquarium, and the the primary architect of the spell-circle construct that was used to imprison her at Demonreach.

Spoiler: Small Favor Demonreach scene

I jingled the Crown Royal bag and bumped the hilt of Shiro's sword, hanging over my shoulder, with the side of my head. "Yep. But you knew that already, or Rosie, there, wouldn't have brought us this far. So let's skip the small talk. Show me the girl."
"By all means," Nicodemus said. He gestured with one hand, and the shadows-his shadow, I should say-suddenly fell away from the interior of the ruined lighthouse tower.

Red light filled that space, pouring up from the sigils and glyphs of the most elaborate greater circle I had ever seen-and I'd seen one made of silver, gold, and precious stones. This one incorporated all of those things plus art-grotesque pieces, mostly-sound, ringing forth in gentle, steady waves from upright tuning forks and tubular bells; and light, focused through prisms and crystals, refracted into dozens of colors that split and bent into perfectly geometric shapes in the air around the circle.

Ivy was trapped inside.

I've seen some fairly extreme abuse in my time, but it never gets easier to see more of it. Nick's people had gone with most of the classics for breaking someone down, and then added in a few twists that wouldn't be available to regular folks. They'd taken Ivy's clothes, for starters, which in this weather was sadistic on multiple levels. They'd shaved her hair away, leaving her bald, except for a couple of sad, ragged little tufts of gold. She was curled up into a fetal position, and she floated in the air, spinning slowly and apparently at random. Her eyes were tightly closed, her face pale with disorientation, terrified.

Outside the circle they had chained a number of those hideous hunting beasts, hairless creatures that resembled nothing in the animal kingdom but fell somewhere between a big panther and a wolf. The creatures looked hungry, and stared intently at the floating morsel. One of them snarled and threw itself to the end of its chain in an effort to snap its fanged maw closed upon the girl's vulnerable flesh. It couldn't reach her, but Ivy twitched and let out a thready whimper.

As she spun and twirled-a deliberate echo of what she'd done to Magog at the Aquarium, I felt certain-the motion revealed dozens of tiny scratches and bruises, evidence of a small legion of petty cruelties. They would, however, seem nightmarish enough to a child who had never experienced real pain of her own. All of this-the pain, the helplessness, the indignity, all of it-would be that much more horrific and terrifying to Ivy for its novelty. Say what I would about pain being a part of the human condition, when it comes to seeing it inflicted on children, I'm as hypocritical as the day is long.

Some things just shouldn't happen.

[SNIP][SNIP][SNIP]

I didn't blame him. Even among professionals this circle was impressive. Lots of luminous, glowing lines and swirls involved, and that always looks fantastic, especially at night. The gold and silver and precious stones didn't hurt things, either. The light and music show being put on by the chimes and crystals added a wonderful little eerie edge to it all, especially given the grotesque art that framed the interior magical symbology. "This is some upper-tier stuff," I said quietly. "It will be another century, maybe two, before I'm good enough to come close to this level of work. It's delicate. One single thing a fraction of an inch out of place and the whole thing goes kablooie. It's powerful. When you're putting this together, if any one of a couple of dozen of the power flows slips for even an instant, the whole thing goes out of balance and could go up with enough force to blow the top off of this whole hillside. It took a freaking genius to put this together, Michael."

I hefted my staff.

"Fortunately," I said, and took a two-handed swing at the nearest stand of slender, delicate crystal. It shattered with gratifying ease, and the encasing light around the greater circle began to waver and dissipate. "It only takes a monkey with a big stick to take it apart."

And I waded into the circle, smashing things with my staff. It was therapeutic. God knows how many times the bad guys had destroyed the careful work of lifetimes when they'd robbed people of homes, of loved ones, of life itself. It felt sort of nice to bring a little cup of Shiva D into their lives for a change. I shattered the crystals that bent light into a cage to hold the Archive prisoner. I bent and mashed the tuning forks that focused sound into chains. I crushed the depictions of bondage and imprisonment meant to restrain the very idea of freedom, and from there I went on to break ivory rune sticks, to crush glyph-scribed gems, to pound into illegibility golden plates inscribed with sigils of imprisonment.

I'm not sure at which point I started screaming in outrage. Somewhere along the line, though, it hit me that these people had taken magic, the power of life, of creation, a force meant to create and protect, to learn and preserve, and they had bent and twisted it into a blasphemy, an obscenity. They had used it to imprison and torment, to torture and maim, all in an attempt to enslave and destroy. Worse, they had turned magic against the Archive, against the safeguard of knowledge itself-and still worse, against a child.

Thats not minor-league work, even with extra mojo from Hell to help power it.
And he was the only living Denarian magical expert there after the Shedd Aquarium bloodbath.

Among the Denarians, this is THE guy for magical shit at this point in time.
There's a reason why Polonessa Lartessa, the only other faction leader of the Denarians, has him teaching her, instead of picking some other Denarian.

 

[DragonParadox]

I would say it's a case of Harry and Nicodemus using the word sorcerer in different ways.

• Harry raised in the tradition of the White Council uses it to mean 'Human talent of limited scope with a skill for destructive magic'. If he were trying to say 'evil wizard' he would go with warlock, since being a Lawbreaking wizard is the most important thing from where he is standing
• Nicodemus, raised to power by Anduriel long before the White Council was a gleam in the Original Merlin's eye uses sorcerer as 'magician who does useful/interesting things' and wizard as 'mortal magician with pretensions of wisdom'

 

[firefrog600]

I would say it's a case of Harry and Nicodemus using the word sorcerer in different ways.

• Harry raised in the tradition of the White Council uses it to mean 'Human talent of limited scope with a skill for destructive magic'. If he were trying to say 'evil wizard' he would go with warlock, since being a Lawbreaking wizard is the most important thing from where he is standing
• Nicodemus, raised to power by Anduriel long before the White Council was a gleam in the Original Merlin's eye uses sorcerer as 'magician who does useful/interesting things' and wizard as 'mortal magician with pretensions of wisdom'

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In fairness good justification but we all know that nicodemus understands the change in times and how words work. He's very savvy like that

 

[Degorium]

In fairness good justification but we all know that nicodemus understands the change in times and how words work. He's very savvy like that

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Go to be honest Nicodemus because of his Advanced age was around when the term wizard became a thing which considering it is a outright bastardization of the word wizened which is another bastardization of wise man.

He probably considered it dumb when it first appeared and has considered dumb for the last Millennia considering sorcerer which was just as good a word and meant pretty much the same thing except one of them is way more pretentious than the other.

 

[uju32]

I would say it's a case of Harry and Nicodemus using the word sorcerer in different ways.

• Harry raised in the tradition of the White Council uses it to mean 'Human talent of limited scope with a skill for destructive magic'. If he were trying to say 'evil wizard' he would go with warlock, since being a Lawbreaking wizard is the most important thing from where he is standing
• Nicodemus, raised to power by Anduriel long before the White Council was a gleam in the Original Merlin's eye uses sorcerer as 'magician who does useful/interesting things' and wizard as 'mortal magician with pretensions of wisdom'

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Fair.
Different cultural contexts, even if Nick is usually hip with the kids.
Usually when Harry is talking human talent he's specific; Mort is an ectomancer, for example.

Whose is closer to how the rest of the setting uses it, though?
Because evil human spellcaster has lots of synonyms in the White Council (warlock, necromancer, strega et cetera)
And that quote from Blood Rites suggests that sorcerer means specific things to the broader supernatural community.

 

[firefrog600]

Go to be honest Nicodemus because of his Advanced age was around when the term wizard became a thing which considering it is a outright bastardization of the word wizened which is another bastardization of wise man.

He probably considered it dumb when it first appeared and has considered dumb for the last Millennia considering sorcerer which was just as good a word and meant pretty much the same thing except one of them is way more pretentious than the other.

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highly doubtful nicodemus finds it dumb or cares my dude. Your making justifications without much reason too.

 

[DragonParadox]

Fair.
Different cultural contexts, even if Nick is usually hip with the kids.
Usually when Harry is talking human talent he's specific; Mort is an ectomancer, for example.

Whose is closer to how the rest of the setting uses it, though?
Because evil human spellcaster has lots of synonyms in the White Council (warlock, necromancer, strega et cetera)
And that quote from Blood Rites suggests that sorcerer means specific things to the broader supernatural community.

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The rest of the setting (to the extent that they speak English) would be closer to the Council's way of using it, just because the Council has been around and influential for so long. Lara Raith would use it like that for instance, though the White King might not.

 

[DragonParadox]

Vote is very close and not a lot of voters beside, I'll leave this until morning. Fallen are serious business so a bit more time to talk it out would not hurt in either case..

Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Oct 5, 2024 at 1:36 PM, finished with 88 posts and 8 votes.

• ---

  4 people have voted

  [X] Plan Poison Tongue
  -[X]Never interrupt a villain monologuing when they should be running, try to get information out of the Fallen
  -[X]Tiffany: Flesh 1 + Awakening 3: Heal and disable thrall wizards
  -[X]Molly: Grab phone pouch, disable phone camera and continue conversation as war party continue pursuit
  -[X]Party: Continue pursuit as soon as Tiffany is done
  --[X] STUNT: You snatch up the phone pouch and break the camera in the same motion, taking a moment to rifle through the pockets of the unconscious before making way to Tiffany. "Booby traps are hardly sporting though, Namshiel,"you reply, deliberately pitching your voice in the same urbane cadences that the monster on the line has adopted. "Cool trick with the phone, by the way. " You pause for effect as Tiffany finishes, motioning to your other companions to follow, then continue talking as you pick up the pace."Though you'd think a twenty hundred year old wizard with your advantages would have passed the need to use...trinkets for divination."

  • uju32
  • Degorium
  • BoredMan
  • TheGrape

  3 people have voted

  [X] Stab the phone and keep going until you can stab the one on the other end as well

  • Yog
  • Goldfish
  • Ivar

  1 people have voted

  [X]Mind Hand Manipulation 1 essence grab the phone.
  -[x]Clippy can you trace this call?

  • fictionfan

 

[Degorium]

highly doubtful nicodemus finds it dumb or cares my dude. Your making justifications without much reason too.

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To be honest when I found out about the etymology or the history of the word wizard I found it immensely stupid that that's the term that stuck for just a person who had magic.

There are other words that are One way cooler in what they actually mean and considerably more accurate to what they actually describe for magic users pretty much everywhere else.

It is literal ego stroking for wizards to call themselves that. It is an insanely pretentious name to give yourselves the only thing more pretentious would be to call themselves Magi. Though it means exactly the same thing as wizard except it would put them in a religious context so it's probably the only reason why they didn't call themselves that.

there's also the fact he could just consider them not to be different things at all and find the whole justification for calling them different things complete propaganda on the white council's part.

Though you are completely right this is like deep post hoc justification.

 

[Azais]

[X] Plan Poison Tongue

@DragonParadox it's better to close the vote, the last discussions didn't have much to do with the plan itself but rather other doubts among the quest participants.

 

[DragonParadox]

To be honest when I found out about the etymology or the history of the word wizard I found it immensely stupid that that's the term that stuck for just a person who had magic.

There are other words that are One way cooler in what they actually mean and considerably more accurate to what they actually describe for magic users pretty much everywhere else.

It is literal ego stroking for wizards to call themselves that. It is an insanely pretentious name to give yourselves the only thing more pretentious would be to call themselves Magi. Though it means exactly the same thing as wizard except it would put them in a religious context so it's probably the only reason why they didn't call themselves that.

there's also the fact he could just consider them not to be different things at all and find the whole justification for calling them different things complete propaganda on the white council's part.

Though you are completely right this is like deep post hoc justification.

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I mean 'magic' has religious connotations, magic in the broader Western tradition (generalizing hugely here, but that through line from Greece to Rome to the Christian world of the High Middle Ages) means something like 'exotic religion from far away that can solve your problems in new and interesting ways' and/or 'creepy religion of those foreigners over there that they use to curse you'. Obviously we would call magic anything that breaks the laws of physics, but but the concept of laws of physics did not exist when those words formed, obviously someone in eleventh century England would not call a miraculous healing or a priest's exorcism magic even though it would definitely qualify in our terms.

 

[firefrog600]

To be honest when I found out about the etymology or the history of the word wizard I found it immensely stupid that that's the term that stuck for just a person who had magic.

There are other words that are One way cooler in what they actually mean and considerably more accurate to what they actually describe for magic users pretty much everywhere else.

It is literal ego stroking for wizards to call themselves that. It is an insanely pretentious name to give yourselves the only thing more pretentious would be to call themselves Magi. Though it means exactly the same thing as wizard except it would put them in a religious context so it's probably the only reason why they didn't call themselves that.

there's also the fact he could just consider them not to be different things at all and find the whole justification for calling them different things complete propaganda on the white council's part.

Though you are completely right this is like deep post hoc justification.

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I'm just saying I highly doubt nicodemus cares about the etymology but he does care about knowing the facts, being with the times, and presenting himself correctly.

 

[Degorium]

I mean 'magic' has religious connotations

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Yeah though that is kind of what I was getting at calling themselves Magi would directly put them in the same vein as the three wise men who visit Jesus when he is born. Due to their Western founding in general status calling themselves that would be extremely arrogant and directly place them in a context to be essentially judeochristian magic users.

Yeah a lot of words for magic users across the world are essentially fortune teller which is sorcerer from the Latin sortarius, wonderworker in the form of thaumaterge of Greek origin. They do have a direct mystical and possibly religious meaning but the Greeks had a different word for magic involving the gods it was Theurgy/Theurgist literally Greek for God Calling/ Divine Working.

The fact that wise man essentially became the word for Mortal magic users both in real life and Dresden Files is because it's a nearly completely an areligious term.

Which is good for the white Council but anyone who is used to any other name for them would be like 'why we're not white council? why would we want to call the people of our sphere' wise men' we know it doesn't require wisdom at all to be a magic user at in fact some might say it requires the opposite of wisdom to want to be a magic user. '

 

[Azais]

I'm just saying I highly doubt nicodemus cares about the etymology but he does care about knowing the facts, being with the times, and presenting himself correctly.

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One thing I love about the world of Desden is that the Supernaturals are not in the dark about technology or current affairs, unlike other urban fantasy worlds. Mab has Disney, Odin has a security company, the Summer Lady has a common shop in the world to pass the time, etc.

Even the wizards, whose magic does not go well with technology, have the White Council as one of the masters in the financial and information sector. That is why I always scoff when Harry complains about poverty because that is his conscious choice to live like this, there are many methods for a law-abiding wizard to live well and if he could not think of any, for some reason, he could ask McCoye. I am sure he would help him think of ways.

 

[fictionfan]

[X] Plan Poison Tongue

 

[firefrog600]

One thing I love about the world of Desden is that the Supernaturals are not in the dark about technology or current affairs, unlike other urban fantasy worlds. Mab has Disney, Odin has a security company, the Summer Lady has a common shop in the world to pass the time, etc.

Even the wizards, whose magic does not go well with technology, have the White Council as one of the masters in the financial and information sector. That is why I always scoff when Harry complains about poverty because that is his conscious choice to live like this, there are many methods for a law-abiding wizard to live well and if he could not think of any, for some reason, he could ask McCoye. I am sure he would help him think of ways.

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I mean part of that is about harrys beliefs magic is almost a religion to him and he thinks it cheapens things to use it for those purposes. Is it a bit stupid yeah? But its his own decision even if it really fucks him over.

 

[firefrog600]

Yeah though that is kind of what I was getting at calling themselves Magi would directly put them in the same vein as the three wise men who visit Jesus when he is born. Due to their Western founding in general status calling themselves that would be extremely arrogant and directly place them in a context to be essentially judeochristian magic users.

Yeah a lot of words for magic users across the world are essentially fortune teller which is sorcerer from the Latin sortarius, wonderworker in the form of thaumaterge of Greek origin. They do have a direct mystical and possibly religious meaning but the Greeks had a different word for magic involving the gods it was Theurgy/Theurgist literally Greek for God Calling/ Divine Working.

The fact that wise man essentially became the word for Mortal magic users both in real life and Dresden Files is because it's a nearly completely an areligious term.

Which is good for the white Council but anyone who is used to any other name for them would be like 'why we're not white council? why would we want to call the people of our sphere' wise men' we know it doesn't require wisdom at all to be a magic user at in fact some might say it requires the opposite of wisdom to want to be a magic user. '

Click to shrink...

In fairness in canon they sorta earned the title wise men to some degree since we have wog they helped along shit like the enlightenment with the goal of making the world less a shit place for them to live. Enlightened self interest and all usually through shit like sponsoring people with these ideas, maybe helping some things along, and congregating around said individuals and such. So the progress of tech and philosophy is at least somewhat a result of wizard meddling. Not that its solely cause of them they just actively went about things to encourage that shit.

 

[BronzeTongue]

Thorned Namshiel is a wizard scale talent in this quest, Molly can tell that much just by looking at his work. As far as canon goes I have trouble assigning 'burned Arctis Tor' to a mere sorcerer, but you are right Nic did called him that so there is a legitimate case to be made there. It was a choice on my end to make him a wizard.

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Fair, though I think that's underestimating what a sorcerer - especially a Denarian raised one - can do.

Mort is an example of a sorcerer of this type. He's an ectomancer - which is basically vegan necromancy - and we get told he's got nearly as much juice as Dresden does, but can only really use it with death magic stuff.

So if he put his back into being evil he could be a world class monster, maybe even eat some ghosts for power like how Kravos stole talent from Dresden. In any case he could almost certainly eventually learn to do any necromancy specific ability we saw used by a mortal wizard in the series.

I wouldn't expect anyone hosting Namshiel to stay normal for long - Marcone is as magical as a desk lamp and gained the skill to duel a titan in like five seconds. I think a world class sorcerer probably could do some of what we see his host do, but after two millennia that guy would be far removed from a "simple" world class sorcerer.

The main reason I was arguing the point was related to characterization.

No you didnt.

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The first effect in the quote you posted is Namshiel eating a spell, then he separately casts the field effect. Neither of these actions support the point we're talking about, which is double stuffed curses of this nature.

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To my knowledge, the first assertion isnt true.
Sorcery is primarily about the ability to raise magical mayhem, not about a narrow set of tasks.

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See the page on Mort. He is a sorcerer as strong as Dresden per Lea's assessment, but of a different flavor.

Harry thinks of sorcerers in terms of exploding things with magic because that's how he works. Violence is how he measures power.

The Denarian Quintus Cassius was more than a thousand years old himself(note the name), and still wasnt as good a caster as Dresden was, both when he still held Saluriel's Coin in Death Masks, and when he was just human in Dead Beat. And he was a wizard, with a death curse and everything; in addition to combat evocation, summoning and entropy curses, we see him track Butters with thaumaturgy

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Magog probably doesn't have a good tutoring program either; the nature of the fallen, the host, and their partnership shapes how they develop.

We know some of what he's been teaching her.
In addition to the thunderbolts we see her throwing in Small Favor, she veils better than canon!Molly Carpenter in the fight on Demonreach and has enough mojo to shield against Winter Knight Dresden throwing Winter magic in Skin Game.

She's Serious Magical Business, just like he is

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I don't see how that makes a difference at this point. Namshiel taught Marcone to do serious magic, if he's inclined to pass information through his host then he could teach all sorts of things.

DP has settled it for the purposes of this quest but my point isn't that he was a minor practitioner right now, just how he started out.

There's ignorance, and then there's not using precise terms in casual speech.

That is inaccurate.
Sorcerer is not a technical category, its an industry term for someone who can throw around magical violence, according to Harry. Blood Rites chapter 25 is where Harry explains it to Murphy:

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Powerful Dresden Files entities are particular about this kind of thing. When a term has significant meaning I don't think it's reasonable to assume someone like would throw them around lazily. Why should he didn't mean what he said?

Edit:
Autocorrect error