Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Even still that's a bandaid on a bullet wound in this context.

We're not talking about people becoming warlocks on accident, we're talking about people being mentally assaulted and exploited. Even if you stop them from doing explicit black magic other things can and would be done to them.
What do you really want at this point, Bronze? I rally dont are understand you point here. The only way to stop this preoccupation of yours is to literally kill everyone in the present and future who might do it, and I hope you can see the problem with that.

You seem to want a perfect solution and there isn't one, but Yog's is good enough (even a bit excessive for me since we don't go gain anything but good will with this, and I've made my feelings clear about it several times, while we have to spend our precious main AP, because the clones don't have our creation charm, in these books).
 
What do you really want at this point, Bronze? I rally dont are understand you point here. The only way to stop this preoccupation of yours is to literally kill everyone in the present and future who might do it, and I hope you can see the problem with that.

You seem to want a perfect solution and there isn't one, but Yog's is good enough (even a bit excessive for me since we don't go gain anything but good will with this, and I've made my feelings clear about it several times, while we have to spend our precious main AP, because the clones don't have our creation charm, in these books).
I mean its arguable that the court could get other people to swear on these things so thats a fairly tangible benefit to the setting as a whole. Given doesn't affect us as dp will just add more stuff from outside the white council as he can freeform edit the setting as he pleases.
 
Even still that's a bandaid on a bullet wound in this context.

We're not talking about people becoming warlocks on accident, we're talking about people being mentally assaulted and exploited. Even if you stop them from doing explicit black magic other things can and would be done to them.
Yes, absolutely, but it's a step in the right direction. And, in principle, providing protection against mental compulsions via a Fascination, is also within our capability.

The books are a solution to "half of our Wardens, and most of younger wizards have been forced to break the Law, what do we do?" problem. Or at least a part of such a solution.
 
[X] Promise Carlos you will make sure none of his friends will lose themselves to Lawbreaking (Must buy Kakuri: False Springs Beckckon (•••) at next level up)

[X] Plan Familiar Books of Law
 
[X] Promise Carlos you will make sure none of his friends will lose themselves to Lawbreaking (Must buy Kakuri: False Springs Beckckon (•••) at next level up)

[X] Plan Familiar Books of Law
 
Adhoc vote count started by Anaja on Sep 10, 2024 at 2:38 AM, finished with 47 posts and 22 votes.

  • [x] Promise Carlos you will make sure none of his friends will lose themselves to Lawbreaking (Must buy Kakuri: False Springs Beckckon (•••) at next level up)
    [X] Plan Familiar Books of Law
    -[X] Promise Carlos you will make sure none of his friends will lose themselves to Lawbreaking (Must buy Kakuri: False Springs Beckckon (•••) at next level up)
    -[X] Explain both the ideas you had for both the familiars and books of laws as long-term solutions to Law breaking corruption
    -[X][STUNT] "I am more than pretty eyes and a flaming sword, you know?" you say, not quite flirting, for it is not the time for that, but definitely trying to lighten the mood for a moment: "Mine is the light of Creation, the flame of forge primordial, and it is not the first time I have thought of how to give those that misstep, or are pushed off the path a chance of redemption. It seems the Fates conspire for me to reveal them faster than expected. Now, who do I ask for heads of ancient monsters to forge wonders from?"
    [X] Make no promises, no matter how greatful the Merlin might be for this you're sure it will not extend to this
    [x] Promise Carlos you will make sure none of his friends will lose themselves to Lawbreaking (Must buy Kakuri: False Springs Beckckon (•••) at next level up)
    -[x] "You know the Council has the tradition of the Doom of Damocles? Where a wizard vows to ensure a Lawbreaker does not fall to repetition? I have a more practical version of that, where the dark urges of Lawbreaking itself can be paved over, but the conditions are not lenient. It is not a path I would recommend, but I can offer it for those who were pushed into a dark place."
    [X] [Write In]: Float the possibility of working together to forge something to help the wardens protect themselves.
 
So, the context of how the proposed solution for the issue works.

First, the issue, as I understand it is that a number of wardens and other white council members were subverted and essentially forced, or at least coerced by magical means, to become warlocks (ie to break the laws), or will be forced to become such during this crisis, as the final f*ck you to white council by the conspirators and their patrons. Becoming a warlock results in nearly unhealable mental corruption. It van be overcome and mitigated, but normally doing so is a process of decades, and reoffending is incredibly easy. Doom of Dakocles, a procedure that is alternative to execution, is not meant to be employed on mass scale. So, the solution is threefold:

1)False Spring Beckons - a temporary fix that subverts the victims to Molly's will, but decreases the risk of reoffense and gives them higher chances of healing

2) Books of Laws that make it impossible (or at least incredibly hard) for them to reoffend, even if they want to. This allows for a more mass scale implementation of Doom of Damocles, as the risk of reoffense is strongly lowered

3) The familiars, who do not heal the corruption, but prevent further degradation if the reoffense occurs. This is needed for stuff like being able to use self defense in a mentally safe way.

It doesn't solve the issue of "wardens can be mind controlled" - that would require an additionalal effort (it's actually possible to solve this issue), but it does solve the "a number of people WC can't afford to kill or alienate were turned into warlocks against their will"
 
What do you really want at this point, Bronze? I rally dont are understand you point here. The only way to stop this preoccupation of yours is to literally kill everyone in the present and future who might do it, and I hope you can see the problem with that.

You seem to want a perfect solution and there isn't one, but Yog's is good enough (even a bit excessive for me since we don't go gain anything but good will with this, and I've made my feelings clear about it several times, while we have to spend our precious main AP, because the clones don't have our creation charm, in these books).
… I've mentioned my fix for this several times though?

My fixation is that we have the exact tools to fix this all of this and don't need to screw around:


Form of Dreams and Nightmares (1 pt. Form Element)
The Splendor takes the form of something that is evocative of the fantastic. It might be a child's
toy, a brightly-decorated banner, a monster or carnival mask, or a treasure chest. It might be a
kaleidoscope, or a bundle of bright balloons. This Element defines the Splendor's physical form
and gives it a character, and that character is aligned with the power of the Dreaming. Other
Elements may draw upon this fact.
The Splendor stands out as a powerful work of magic when seen with chimerical eyes or mystic
scrutiny, but it seems nigh-impossible to credit it with any specific significance if observed with
purely mundane senses. Even when presented with compelling evidence that there's something
weird about the object, anyone who hasn't made a magical survey of the Splendor must make a
Willpower roll against difficulty (4 + Splendor's rating) to accept such a conclusion.
As an Adornment, it raises the difficulty to affect the user with hostile works of Glamour by one.
As the basis for a Fascination, it may have one minor impossible feature such as floating in
defiance of gravity, reflecting people's true selves when looked into, or aging backwards in time.
Form of Portentous Moonlight (1 pt. Form Element)
The Splendor takes the form of something otherworldly. It may be a religious symbol, an overtly
magical object such as a wand or pentacle, or a strange haze. It may be an inchoate thing of
coalesced light which can be held and touched. This Element defines the Splendor's physical
form and gives it a character, and that character is aligned with the power of the Spirit World.
Other Elements may draw upon this fact.
The Splendor can be summoned directly into the Umbra when made to manifest, if its owner
desires. As the basis for an Adornment, it grants its user the ability to see and interact with spirits
on the other side of the Gauntlet. As the basis for a Fascination, it can interact with both the
physical world and the Spirit World.
Sacred Protection (3 pt. Root Element)
This Splendor defines that which cannot threaten those within its influence, according to the
Splendor's character as defined by appropriate Form Elements.
It provides immunity to damage from wind, cold, and electricity (air); being crushed, cut, or
pierced by stone or metal (earth); being burned (fire); being drowned (water); being poisoned or
struck by wooden objects (wood); disease (death); possession (spirit); or the twisting of the mind
by supernatural powers (dreams). If its protection is bestowed by a Fascination, it lasts for a
number of hours equal to the Splendor's rating, and may be set to persist indefinitely while
within the Splendor's influence in the case of Forms such as Form of the Hearth.
If more than one characteristic is drawn upon when this Element grants its Protection, then
instead of invincibility, damage is simply downgraded from aggravated to lethal, lethal to
bashing, and bashing damage cut in half after soak (round down), while immunity to possession
and thought alteration become the ability to make a Willpower roll at difficulty (10 – Splendor's
rating) to immediately shake the effect off, and immunity to disease becomes the ability to make
a Stamina roll at difficulty (10 – Splendor's rating) to immediately shake the infection off.
Elongation of the Curse (1 pt. Mystic Element)
The Splendor is loathe to relinquish its hold on those it claims. Select one Element of the
Splendor whose effects last for a limited time. That Element's maximum duration is increased by
one category (from one scene to one day, one day to one week, etc). If the duration is already
"one year," the Element can be rendered permanent.
This Element can be taken more than once to enhance multiple Elements.
X2

This should last 3 weeks a pop and cover however many people we can contrive to interact with it.

If they're already afflicted then that's a type of mental influence which this should protect from. If they're not this will stop stuff from happening in the first place.

As far as I can see this is actually the perfect solution to the situation at hand.
 
As far as I can see this is actually the perfect solution to the situation at hand.
It isn't perfect. Unless I'm reading these wrong, all it would do it prevent further tampering/corruption.

It wouldn't fix what's already there corruption wise, and it wouldn't stop them from doing it again.

The Springs would deal with the corruption. Molly's clone can deal with most mental programming that's already present. The Book of Laws would stop people from breaking the Laws bearing extenuating circumstances for self defense for example which can be defined in its making.
 
It isn't perfect. Unless I'm reading these wrong, all it would do it prevent further tampering/corruption.

It wouldn't fix what's already there corruption wise, and it wouldn't stop them from doing it again.

The Springs would deal with the corruption. Molly's clone can deal with most mental programming that's already present. The Book of Laws would stop people from breaking the Laws bearing extenuating circumstances for self defense for example which can be defined in its making.
And the familiars would prevent mental corruption if they still needed to break the Laws under those special circumstances. We don't have anything permanent or easy for already inflicted mental corruption, but hopefully therapy and lack of further exposure + time would help.
 
It isn't perfect. Unless I'm reading these wrong, all it would do it prevent further tampering/corruption.

It wouldn't fix what's already there corruption wise, and it wouldn't stop them from doing it again.

The Springs would deal with the corruption. Molly's clone can deal with most mental programming that's already present. The Book of Laws would stop people from breaking the Laws bearing extenuating circumstances for self defense for example which can be defined in its making.
Imma note self defense is not a justification in universe if your in a tough place your expected to get yourself out of it or die without breaking the laws regardless. So no killing other humans with magic period. No transforming others period.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Sep 10, 2024 at 12:57 PM, finished with 57 posts and 24 votes.

  • [x] Promise Carlos you will make sure none of his friends will lose themselves to Lawbreaking (Must buy Kakuri: False Springs Beckckon (•••) at next level up)
    [X] Plan Familiar Books of Law
    -[X] Promise Carlos you will make sure none of his friends will lose themselves to Lawbreaking (Must buy Kakuri: False Springs Beckckon (•••) at next level up)
    -[X] Explain both the ideas you had for both the familiars and books of laws as long-term solutions to Law breaking corruption
    -[X][STUNT] "I am more than pretty eyes and a flaming sword, you know?" you say, not quite flirting, for it is not the time for that, but definitely trying to lighten the mood for a moment: "Mine is the light of Creation, the flame of forge primordial, and it is not the first time I have thought of how to give those that misstep, or are pushed off the path a chance of redemption. It seems the Fates conspire for me to reveal them faster than expected. Now, who do I ask for heads of ancient monsters to forge wonders from?"
    [X] Make no promises, no matter how greatful the Merlin might be for this you're sure it will not extend to this
    [x] Promise Carlos you will make sure none of his friends will lose themselves to Lawbreaking (Must buy Kakuri: False Springs Beckckon (•••) at next level up)
    -[x] "You know the Council has the tradition of the Doom of Damocles? Where a wizard vows to ensure a Lawbreaker does not fall to repetition? I have a more practical version of that, where the dark urges of Lawbreaking itself can be paved over, but the conditions are not lenient. It is not a path I would recommend, but I can offer it for those who were pushed into a dark place."
    [X] [Write In]: Float the possibility of working together to forge something to help the wardens protect themselves.
 
It isn't perfect. Unless I'm reading these wrong, all it would do it prevent further tampering/corruption.

It wouldn't fix what's already there corruption wise, and it wouldn't stop them from doing it again.

The Springs would deal with the corruption. Molly's clone can deal with most mental programming that's already present. The Book of Laws would stop people from breaking the Laws bearing extenuating circumstances for self defense for example which can be defined in its making.
I'm extremely skeptical about the idea that Peabody could do what's being suggested here in the first place. He didn't do it in canon even when it would have been an obviously better idea.

Even sticking to information known IC it's extremely hard to buy. Secretly making people warlocks prior to this point would require either fully converting them so they could be instructed in how to pretend to be sane or finding a way to completely suppress the signs of it.

Also worth noting that DF doesn't let you do arbitrary mind shaping to anyone - even mortals. Not in the sense that they resist, but that their minds fall apart if you press them too hard against their own nature. Breaking people this way makes them shit at magic, which is why Mathews still had his brain when we reduced him early on in the quest. It's also why all the monsters who want to recruit Harry don't just scoop out his brain to do it.

If he could snap his fingers and turn the council into 50% warlocks by volume or lobotomize then outright then he'd have no reason to keep playing the game he is.


And the familiars would prevent mental corruption if they still needed to break the Laws under those special circumstances. We don't have anything permanent or easy for already inflicted mental corruption, but hopefully therapy and lack of further exposure + time would help.
There is only so far you can push before you start causing harm yourself. FSB, the birds, and an artifact enforcing blood oaths on their members is a lot to pile on at once.
 
If he could snap his fingers and turn the council into 50% warlocks by volume or lobotomize then outright then he'd have no reason to keep playing the game he is.
He does not need that ability so stop exaggerating. If he and co have access to your mind and can alter it they can simply increase the chances of you commiting black magic of your own accord.
 
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Arc 14 Post 26: A Rally Made in Haste
A Rally Made in Haste

18th of February 2007 A.D.

You think of dead pigeons flocking, a necromancer's trick, you think of deals made and spells yet to be cast and you consider again the voice of the demon. "I might have a longer term answer for that, most of the Council is probably not going to like it, I do have a shorter term one..." almost in reach. "They are definitely going to hate it."

"An answer to..." he looks at you wide-eyed.

"Lawbreaking, yeah," you confirm.

"If it's some kind of free pass yeah I can see why they wouldn't. Jesus Christ!" he shakes his head as you resist the reflexive urge to tell him off for taking the Lord's name in vain. Given the tone that's more like a prayer.

Before you can say anything more Harry and McCoy walk in. The old man looks outwardly unchanged, but the laugh lines are entirely gone from around his eyes, leaving only the dark hollows of exhaustion under them.

"I just got ambushed by two people I could have sworn were on the level and given that one of them was using thrice-be-damned Hellfire." As greetings go its a grim one. Seeing Morgan and the others he adds: "Helga Larson and Francisco."

"Three Fingers?" Zadock practically falls out of his seat.

Another nod. "Hellfire only came out when I noticed the time bubble trap they'd made for me."

"Huh... you don't really hear about many warlocks breaking the Sixth Law," Carlos pipes up putting on a no-nonsense facade, well worn by the looks of it.

"That's because you need real skill to break it," Morgan explains.

"Was this in the Nevernever?" you cut in before he can say more. As it turns out it was. Someone had gotten word to at least some of the wizards who had been there, or some of the ones who were alerted had gone after McCoy. "How prepared did they seem?"

"Oh... I've no doubt that trap's been there for a while, but if it was waiting for today in particular I'll eat my hat, the good one."

"You have a good hat?" Harry can't keep himself from quipping. That's how he shows relief and stress... and anger too now that you think about it. Harry quips a lot.

"It's my lucky hat," the old man counters with what someone who doesn't know him might mistake for real heat before he instantly settles down. "Pity we don't have it so we'll have to make our own luck. We need to get to Scotland, fast. I've sent messages to the rest of the Senior Council, but they aren't the kind of channels that take return calls."

"I can get you there in about ten minutes assuming you don't mind a detour through Sanctuary," you feel a lot more confident making that offer now with a dozen motes of power than with eight.

A pittance of what you once had, a certainty older than words comes upon you, but you shake off the cobwebs of ages past. Here and now is what matters.

Regained 4 Essence -> Now at 12/18 (Dragon Nest Regeneration)

"I can call a Hunt of Ankou's Hounds," Lydia intentionally uses the more modern name for her father. "They are more than they were under my hand."

"I'm very good with a rifle and I can make myself lucky when it counts," Olivia makes an offer as McCoy looks at her, at you and then does a rare double take.

"Normally I'd say you shouldn't bring too many strange guests to this party, but the pigeon's long since flown the coop and it's rolling down the hill on fire right now."

"The coop not the pigeon?" you ask. Maybe Harry's contagious.

"The coop. Setting the pigeon on fire's our job." For all your power, a chill runs down your spine at the tone. He takes a deep breath and in a more normal tone of voice adds: "They are going to try to ambush you as soon as you set foot in the city..."

"They can try." Sure it sounds a bit cocky and your mask may have fallen when you fought the vampire but....

"This is too big," McCoy says in return. "They'll have someone on watch with the Sight."

"On the whole town?"

"There's ways to look farther, anchors, scale models. It's risky, but this is big, as big as it gets," he repeats.

"There's a limit, I don't care what kind of bloody horror they sold their souls to," Morgan says, spite and anger heavy on his tongue. "I'd buy a model of the Old Town, with how many of them there are maybe the whole city, but there isn't anyone keeping the Sight on bloody Linlithgow."

What does Molly think of the plan that's starting to form?

[] Seems like the best you're going to get, show up fifteen, twenty miles from the Old Town and then make your way to one of the entrances

[] You will take your chances with a closer emergence, time could mean lives

[] Write in


OOC: No rolls for this one. Ebenezer made his when you called him, in short he ended up in an even more dangerous situation than Morgan, but then he got himself out of it by being both that paranoid and that good.
 
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I'm extremely skeptical about the idea that Peabody could do what's being suggested here in the first place. He didn't do it in canon even when it would have been an obviously better idea.

Even sticking to information known IC it's extremely hard to buy. Secretly making people warlocks prior to this point would require either fully converting them so they could be instructed in how to pretend to be sane or finding a way to completely suppress the signs of it.

Also worth noting that DF doesn't let you do arbitrary mind shaping to anyone - even mortals. Not in the sense that they resist, but that their minds fall apart if you press them too hard against their own nature. Breaking people this way makes them shit at magic, which is why Mathews still had his brain when we reduced him early on in the quest. It's also why all the monsters who want to recruit Harry don't just scoop out his brain to do it.

If he could snap his fingers and turn the council into 50% warlocks by volume or lobotomize then outright then he'd have no reason to keep playing the game he is.



There is only so far you can push before you start causing harm yourself. FSB, the birds, and an artifact enforcing blood oaths on their members is a lot to pile on at once.
I think we may be talking past each other a little bit. False Springs beckons doesn't just help future warlocks it also helps past warlocks and even helps current warlocks. Your plan is good for both preventing future warlocks and helping current non warlocks not become warlocks. Yogs plan also helps on the same point in a different way. Ideally we would do both but false Springs beckons allows us to help both our Minions that we currently already have any warlocks that might be made before we can make either of yours or yogs splendors and allows us to help more people simply because fall Springs beckons works on any and every debilitating condition not just warlockism.
That would help with Nelson and Rosie as well...

Oh dear sweat Malfeas I just had a thought... that would work for Lawbreakers, the damage warlocks do to themselves is explicitly the same that the victims of mind warping suffer. You could make an army of sane warlocks.

The White Council is going to love you. /s :V

Oh and since we are talking charms, False Spring Beckon would obviate all of Rosie's lingering issues from the compulsion and get her over her addiction and as a three dot favored charm it is something you can buy at 9 XP. I mean she would have to be your minion in some way, but you could just ask for easy and convenient things

It would likely prevent the Yama King from reverting her to Chih -Mei since that uses her inherent hunger against her, but all the other unplesant facts of being Akuma are beyond the Charm. You would need False Spring Beckon.
Yep, an addiction is a kind of derangement, it is not a inherent curse from a dark nature the way the Hunger is.
False Spring Beckon does not work to maintain humanity, it can deal with bloodline curses if you had thosem but not low Humanity.

  1. VEE would work to remove the flaw outright
  2. False Spring Beckon could supress it with repeated application
  3. A Splendour could technically allow him to feed the demon some other way
  4. Finally the most readily available one, exorcise the demon out of him, though of course you would loose out on recruiting a relatively powerful whampire.
The facts of the matter is we have servants who would actively benefit from false Springs beckon we could also have more servants in the future who would also actively benefit from it. Past warlocks as stated have no reason to ever turn themselves in even if they are exactly one time offenders which Believe It or Not leads to festering issues which are not mitigated by Your solution and only partially mitigated By yogs.

I don't believe Peabody or anyone can just scoop out a Wizard's will and make them cast dark magic but that's completely tangential to the point of what's false Springs beckons does and what it can do for both our servants and people that we can get within our service for a Time.
 
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I mean she would have to be your minion in some way, but you could just ask for easy and convenient things
Technically unlike MIS False Spring Beckon doesn't actually require someone to be our minion the effect just disrupts if they ever say (or imply) no to any order or request we make. So it definitely conditions someone to become our minion, but doesn't require them to be one in the first place.
 
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