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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
I've been convinced we could make a go at backstabbing seeker.
[X] Murder is Meat the duchess, and let Broken Seeker try to betray US, instead of the other way around.
[X] Murder is Meat the duchess, and let Broken Seeker try to betray US, instead of the other way around.
- Location
- Right Where I Am
Two questions, DragonParadox.
Would finishing the kill and using Murder is Meat deny Broken Seeker of special benefits he might acquire by eating her?
If yes, then is the split the loot vote inherently agreeing to let him get the full eating her benefit? I was assuming when I voted for it that we could still screw him over a bit, but now I'm uncertain.
Would finishing the kill and using Murder is Meat deny Broken Seeker of special benefits he might acquire by eating her?
If yes, then is the split the loot vote inherently agreeing to let him get the full eating her benefit? I was assuming when I voted for it that we could still screw him over a bit, but now I'm uncertain.
^^^I don't think CoD rules are based on who would win a popularity contest
Drakul, Pyrothrax and Ferrovax dont rule nations and yet they are some of the most personally powerful people in the world.
Shagnasty ruled no nation, and yet he was able to personally invade the Raith Manor in canon and kick Lara Raith, the de facto White Queen around.
The fact that you have subjects or followers often has very little to do with your power level.
This.We are at half essence, have taken damage, are surrounded by enemies and hostages, and in a flying plane fighting a shapeshifter who can fly away at any moment. I fail to see how picking a fight with our ally while all of this is going down could conceivably harm us or our interests.
Even the Fae usually dont do this type of ruleslawyering unless they are deliberately trying to be assholes to someone in particular.
When you meet a Fae, you usually dont have to worry about it trying to kill you the moment the meeting is over. When you go to Mab's house, or Maeve's, you dont have to worry about getting killed by guards after you've left their immediate presence.
Dresden didnt have to worry about the Wild Hunt killing him as soon as he left the Erlking's halls either.
There are old monsters, and there are bold monsters; there are no old, bold monsters.
Seeker did not live to be an old monster by being reckless about jumping new characters who keep pulling whacky new shit out of their back pockets.
If he wasnt willing to risk starting a fight with Molly in Chicago with 12 lesser skinwalkers at his back?
He sure as fuck isnt starting a fight with Molly in the middle of Mexico, the middle of the Red King's heartland after burning a significant amount of juice killing the Red King's daughter and putting up a magical flare about his current location.
This doesnt make him trustworthy; it makes him pragmatic. And non-stupid.
He's an immortal. He's patient.
That doesnt mean you should turn your back on him, or project a picture of vulnerability; thats just begging for it.
And his unwillingness to start a fight with Molly doesnt mean he cant, say, lash out at the remaining passengers on the plane.
This claim has no supporting evidence for it.
- We've never seen Seeker go flat out
- We know he can enter and leave the NeverNever at will which we cant yet
- For all we know he can teleport, which is something we've seen in all three settings in this AU
And given that the QM is emulating him using W20 Gifts, there's a good chance he has a Gift specifically for breaking attempted grapples; that skinwalker we caught in the NeverNever did.
The assertion that we're faster than him doesnt really have any evidence supporting it.
Citation very much needed.
If any of this was true, he would be hunting spirits and demigods and fae in the NeverNever and on Earth; I can think of at least two demigod-equivalents in Chicago.
Instead his primary victims appear to be wizards, other human magic users and once-human vampires.
He isnt even picking fights with the Bigfoot tribes.
1) We arent fighting him. We should have no intention of starting a fight here, for both ethical and pragmatic reasons.
Regardless of the results, we'd be out of juice with no backup and no supplies in the middle of Rampire country and within spitting distance of Rampire response forces. Thats what is described as an adverse correlation of forces.
2) When he came to Chicago, Seeker implemented contingency measures in case shit went wrong.
He spent weeks if not months scouting Molly and her known abilities before making a move.
We can be sure that the experienced betrayer made preparations in the event that shit goes wrong here as well.
3)Arianna supped on godsblood in her past =/= Arianna has godsblood.
Furthermore, there's no evidence that godblood or whatever has any benefit to him; as far as I can tell, thats a theory that was just made right now with no supporting evidence. He's a minor god of terror himself who hunts humans and creatures that used to be human; if gods were the bizness, he'd be hunting gods.
4)The longterm reputational consequences would be....adverse.
5)We would still be at 1/3 Willpower, and starting a fight in central Mexico, in the Red Court's heartland, and within spitting range of other Red Court elder-equivalents. We're already on a ticking clock; the Fellowship told us about the racket our movements raised.
The Rampires are likely doing the same type of backtracking the Fellowship did.
We need to kill the remaining vampires, loot the aircraft's contents and prisoners, and be gone in the next ten minutes.
We know very little about how naagloshii work IC.
And really, risking a squabble in Mexico is very high on our Do Not Want list.
We havent even finished killing the rest of her retinue yet.
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JayTar
Idea briefcase
1) We should have no intention of letting Seeker go, both for ethical and pragmatic reasons.
Seeker has also been spending resources. He isn't fresh either.
We can retreat via our hell, We are ten thousand feet in the air, even if a response force was deployed the minute we attacked, it won't be here for a while.
Or we could just outrace them with our speed and flight.
2) Seeker has had significantly less time and space to make contingency plans for this. No matter how good of a planner you are, there is a limit on how much you can arrange in a plane cabin in mid air.
Our crown is also a tool we can use to figure out any contingencies and stop them.
3) The semantics are not important. Seeker wants to eat her. Seeker will benefit from eating her, likely in a significant manner. Thus it is in our interest to stop him.
I sincerely doubt he has many chances to eat entities of this tier.
4) The long term reputational consequences to this will be zilch. We stuck to the deal The long term reputational consequences of letting individual benefit off of threatening our friends or family. Establishing that consequences befall those who try it is the more important precedent. Our word is worthless if doesn't protect those we care about. People learning that we will play fey games on the wording of a deal if the other person threatened what we care about is a good thing.
5) All our buffs are still active, we have plenty of ways to escape, and we are in a remote location. Ten minutes is an eternity at combat speed.
But most of all. Why do people think Seeker won't be betraying us? It is literally his thing no? If it is such a bad time for us to fight, then why won't Seeker be taking advantage of that?
I don't see the choice as "Fight or let him go" I see it as "Fight him now before he powers up, or fight him after he powers up".
Especially if Murder is Meat works, then I see no reason not to use it. We got the kill, therefore we get to eat the whatever not him. If he wanted to eat it he should have been faster. No betrayal of even the spirit of the deal.
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- Location
- washington
I highly doubt he will benefit significantly from eating her. Just for so many reasons she got some god blood likely many centuries ago and now he'd be eating her second hand. I doubt she fully benefited from it seeing as she is pathetic by the standards of gods fuck Dresden while not quite as good as her could reasonably beat her in a fight. Fuck Dresden could reasonably beat the red king in a wrestle if he did it fast enough seeing as he fucking did in canon. Reds are physically not that insane. Not to mention as much as he might grow he's Never gonna keep up with our speed of growth so it's not that big a worry given a few months on our part.
JayTar
Idea briefcase
Leaving Broken Seeker alive for a few more months is a non-starter to me. How many people would he kill in those months?
It would be doing what is easy, not what is right.
Ultimately it doesn't matter to me if he will benefit a little or a lot. Either is possible. But in the end we need to kill him and it is better to do so before either.
Plus you know, if we can eat her first I see no reason to not.
Broken Seeker is after an chance at access to a whole new charm set. Most gods power is currently tied up in mantles, which he cannot get at without taking on the responsibility the mantles require. But the reds are not gods they just killed and ate power of of a couple. By taking the power from a red BS can get access to a gods real power, not something limited like mantles are. That would grant him at least two divine power sets to work with. Not a good thing infernals are the only exalted with access to more then one charm set for a reason. That being nobody but the Yozi where dumb enough to give exalted the ability to combo charm set, to make something greater.
- Location
- washington
Considering he's an immortal I'd be unsurprised if he occasionally sleeps for a decade.
- Location
- washington
This is retarded she herself almost definitely doesn't have that stuff much less him after eating her.
JayTar
Idea briefcase
That is possible, but saying that he is going to take this win and then go for a nap is wishful thinking. The 99%+ chance is that he will kill innocent people in the coming months unless we do something about it.
- Location
- washington
I mean we could just wait a few days then go out to kill him . Then again hed probably be at home and that place probably has wards so I'd bet on him winning there. Then again we can probably really fuck up any ward system if we use our totally not a reality marble.
- Location
- Germany
He was their teacher, it makes sense that he knows all the lesser Gifts he taught the skinwalkers.
Where else would those come from?
If they came from eating minor animal-spirits under Seeker's guidance, then that also makes it extremly likely that he too has them.
1)We have no actual framework for knowing how much resources he has been spending, or how much he has left.
Nevermind how quickly he can recover it. Shagnasty got the crap beaten out of him with soulfire and apparently walked it off.
Similarly, he has no reference for Molly either.
Furthermore, we have no idea what the institutional resources of the Red Court are.
Assuming we outclass the high end of the demon- and Outsider-summoning faction in capabilities could be a very painful mistake.
2)The Reds and their allies were canonically able to prevent the entire Senior Council of the White Council from opening an escape path into the NeverNever for either a full night or a full day during Dead Beat; I dont recall which.
I would normally be confident about ducking out into our Hell, but I really have no interest in testing this in Mexico.
3)Thats not true. Seeker and his minions are the ones who actually scouted Arianna Ortega, as you can go back and check.
And while we were worrying about school and our new Hell, he had nothing else to do besides plan and prepare.
And he almost certainly knows Mexico better than we do.
Our Crown isnt free use, and we dont have a surfeit of Seeker foci either.
4)We dont know how much he benefits as a relative matter.
Enough that it matters to him sure, but thats not the same as it mattering against Molly in the short to mediumterm.
We've maintained an appalling rate of growth since we Exalted, and we havent even finished filling out our combat suite.
5) I strongly disagree.
This cannot be accurate in the Dresden Files. You dont get to immediately hand over a person's paycheck with one hand and then rob them with a handgun in the other and not expect that this will have Consequences.
Thats literally the type of ruleslawyering that gained the Red Court the sort of reputation that got multiple factions to cooperate in wiping them out.
When we throw down with Seeker, I would prefer to do it under premeditated circumstances, after stacking the odds as far as we possibly can against it escaping or pulling off something unforseen.
Not winging it.
6) Most of our buffs may be currently active, but we are at half Essence and a third of our WP.
We have no antipoison charms against a known poison user.
Or any countermagic against a known Senior Council-tier caster.
We are also NOT in a remote location.; the area between Mexico City and Leon is the most densely populated part of Mexico, and thus likely the area with the most Rampires:
Escaping into our Hell may be possible, but taking prisoners like the mortals here costs us motes.
Motes that may or may not be available after another fight, or if we're interrupted by Rampires.
7) Seeker's record speaks for itself.
He's evil, not actually stupid, and his personal survival ranks a lot higher than momentary gratification. He does not take reckless risks with his own safety either; when Arianna Ortega went to his home territory to hire him in the daytime, she walked out unharmed without getting jumped. Man did his research and got backup before coming after her.
He isnt starting a fight in the Red King's backyard after killing the dude's daughter.
He is almost certainly going home to fort up.
These are extraordinary claims that I have heard of nowhere else.
I've read most of the books, short stories and the RPG, and there is nothing in canon suggesting anything like this.
In fact, it actively contradicts some of what Bob says about how immortals gain and lose power.
So citation needed. Again.
Yeah, its a reasonable assumption.
I just didnt want to make a positive declaration when we dont actually know. For all we know, he approached the problem from another dimension; something like Nicodemus' artifact, for example.
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If the claims about their origins as prehistoric fallen semi-divine messengers turned minor gods is accurate?
Seeker, and the rest of his naagloshii kin, are older than the Red Court; the Red King, according to Dresden's estimate in Turn Coat, was around 4,000 years old as of Changes, and he's the eldest of his kind.
Naagloshii didnt get that old by taking stupid risks.
They can get stupid, and reckless. But they literally live next to Native American tribes who know how to deal with them, who know their banes and weaknesses and can invoke their broken oaths against them.
Any naagloshii with delusions of invincibility would have been long dead.
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Ok, let's go over these. I'll immediately discard Winter Knight deal because a) Mab wasn't the one to break Dresden's back and threaten to kill him, and b) Dresden was planning on getting out of the deal and essentially backstabbing Mab via his assisted suicide. And Mab took this in stride and was pretty much ok with it afterwards. Oh, and Uriel helped Dresden to ultimately scam Mab out of what she actually wanted. So, yeah, a bad example all around.
Did anyone believe Quintus Cassius that he won't try to pick up the coin back up as soon as he could? Ie was there a belief that he'll renounce denarianhood for good or at least for an appreciable amount of time? And did his reputation suffer any when he didn't?
In case of Susan - was the deal "you trade X and I cure Dresden" or "you trade X and I don't further poison / harm Dresden"? Also, was the deal made with the person who poisoned Dresden in the first place? I honestly don't remember.
Do you have anything better? These are not convincing at all.
EDIT: You have a tendency to interpret the setting in a way that is the most constraining and dangerous to us, and least constraining and dangerous to everyone else we encounter. Or at least that's how I am reading it. I think I understand why - you want to be sure when acting, and don't like risks. Yet, in this pattern of behavior, the opportunity costs are high enough that it becomes counter-productive, in my opinion. [/EDIT]
In a BS negaquest, Molly's shintai would be an oh sh*t moment. And then Molly would transport us into her kingdom, where she's a goddess, and we'll be desperately playing "escape an angry god" sequence.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
We can fly a a lot faster then the speed of sound right now and he uses wings to fly.
Well it's a good thing we prepared a hunting party in the NeverNever to intercept that.
And maybe the white god will reach down an smith him we can maybe all day.
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- Location
- Germany
We can't transport unwilling targets to our Hell, without the capture-on-kill Charms.
That's a good point, but he still hasn't planned for kingdom signature.
Which he will, next time we encounter him.
- Location
- washington
Are you seriously suggesting he can make a plan to counter our signature? I'm not sure mab could make a plan to counter our signature. Much less this dude. Make plans surrounding it sure but an actual fucking counter you could give this guy decades and I doubt he'd have a counter for it.
What is and is not a 'lesser CoD' is inherent to the exaltation, short of actually becoming a primordial there is no way to change that scale
Yep, an addiction is a kind of derangement, it is not a inherent curse from a dark nature the way the Hunger is.
Yes if you used MiM and made the roll to actually do it that would allow you guys to deny him everything. The compromise is splitting the take, Broken Seeker can do that because he has a lot more experience with metaphysical cannibalism.
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That talks about what we might try with him, but not what he might have done to prepare for us.
Broken Seeker loves his prep work, I don't want to fight him while he's had time and reason to be ready for us.
The guy spent months being very careful not to attract attention while scoping out his hunt for Dresden.
Even if he goes on another hunt immediately, which would be sort of dumb considering the heat involved here, Broken Seeker is unlikely to go around killing large groups of people.
We should deal with him but doing so here and now is highly likely to screw us over, trigger some sort of casualty heavy contingency, and fail to work.
I'm thinking of this like trying to assassinate evil!Batman. Taking a shot like this is asking to see what he's got in his utility belt specifically for us.
Instead we should attack him when he isn't prepared for us, like when he's getting ready for another hunt.